What's "Liberal" and "Liberalism"?

Originally Posted by TheRightWingSVX

Liberalism is a world view and not just a political leaning. It is a mental disorder as Michael Savage has brilliantly pointed out in his book "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder". You see this disorder causes a person to be negative about anything positive and positive about anything negative. So you are right Republican and Democrat does not enter into the discussion because it is a persons entire world view that is the real issue.

originally post #87 in thread: BioPerformance Fuel Pills....and powder..


Oh, my.... someone is trying to re-write the dictionary!

I tutor English as a second language, and often get asked to define words. It is very frustrating when people completely change the meaning of words so this is just to set the record straight.
(taken from http://dictionary.reference.com/ )

liberal (adj.) [Middle English, generous, from Old French, from Latin lberlis, from lber, free. See leudh- in Indo-European Roots.]

1.
a) Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b) Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
c) Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.
d) Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.
2.
a) Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.
b) Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.
3. Not strict or literal; loose or approximate: a liberal translation.
4. Of, relating to, or based on the traditional arts and sciences of a college or university curriculum: a liberal education.

synonym: progressive
antonym: conservative

liberalism (noun)

1. The state or quality of being liberal.
2.
a) A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.
b) often Liberalism The tenets or policies of a Liberal party.
3. An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard.
4. Liberalism
a) A 19th-century Protestant movement that favored free intellectual inquiry, stressed the ethical and humanitarian content of Christianity, and de-emphasized dogmatic theology.
b) A 19th-century Roman Catholic movement that favored political democracy and ecclesiastical reform but was theologically orthodox.


Regarding Michael Alan Weiner a.k.a. Michael Savage, he is a brilliant opportunist who has finally after many years and several attempts figured out a path to fame and fortune. Perhaps you'd like to read some of his other books, too? He's published 20 that I know of, including:
Man's Useful Plants, New York: Macmillan. 1976.
Secrets of Fijian Medicine, Quantum Books, 1983.
The Complete Book of Homeopathy, Garden City Park, N.Y. : Avery Pub., 1989.
The Antioxidant Cookbook, Mill Valley, CA : Quantum Books, 1995.


I'm told the cookbook has a few interesting recipes.

[Electrophil]

Bipa, I really don't think therightwingsvx will venture down here. His only purpose on this forum is to sell moth ball pills. He has no other purpose, and only the opinions others have given him. That's why I haven't really been paying any attention to him.

I "do" feel he's going after the right market by calling himself rightwing. In the last few years they've shown themselves to be a little more gullible than the rest of us.

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

Bipa, I really don't think therightwingsvx will venture down here. His only purpose on this forum is to sell moth ball pills. He has no other purpose, and only the opinions others have given him. That's why I haven't really been paying any attention to him.

I "do" feel he's going after the right market by calling himself rightwing. In the last few years they've shown themselves to be a little more gullible than the rest of us.

and that would make you???

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by Phast SVX

and that would make you???

Less gullible.

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

Less gullible.

whatever helps you sleep at night buddy.

[Landshark]

i agree with Dr. Savage.

Originally Posted by Electrophil

Bipa, I really don't think therightwingsvx will venture down here. His only purpose on this forum is to sell moth ball pills. He has no other purpose, and only the opinions others have given him. That's why I haven't really been paying any attention to him.

I "do" feel he's going after the right market by calling himself rightwing. In the last few years they've shown themselves to be a little more gullible than the rest of us.

Well, I started writing my response "over there", and then realised that it was completely off topic. So I decided that instead of hijacking the thread, I'd just create a new thread in an appropriate area where I would not only be back on topic, but actually creating it as a new one.

If he chooses not to respond then it doesn't really matter. There's nothing new in the conservatives here being unable or unwilling to support broad sweeping statements they've made in the past. You're right, many of them are simply repeating what they've heard without really thinking about it. Easier to talk to a trained parrot sometimes. But I could say the same thing about people on the left side, too. It is us folks sitting on or near the middle that have the toughest situation, getting fired upon from both sides while having to defend positions that don't easily fit any simple definitions or labels.

Speaking of definitions, my Roget's New Millennium Thesaurus has the following listed as synonyms for "conservative": bourgeois, cautious, constant, controlled, conventional, die-hard, fearful, firm, fogyish, fuddy-duddy, guarded, hard hat, hidebound, holding to, illiberal, inflexible, middle-of-the-road, not extreme, obstinate, old guard, old-line, orthodox, quiet, red-neck, right, right-wing, sober, stable, steady, timid, traditional, traditionalistic, unchangeable, unchanging, uncreative, undaring, unimaginative, unprogressive, white bread.

I'm not sure I'd ever feel comfortable in labelling myself a conservative, even though I do hold quite a few traditional views. My left-leaning friends call me "bourgeois", my right-wingers feel I'm too avant-garde and pinkish. I usually end up just wanting to cry out "A plague o' both your houses!" -Mercutio from "Romeo and Juliet" (III, i, 94)


So I feel better just having posted the correct definitions. Of course, I could have gone on at great length about Mr. Weiner a.k.a. Michael Savage, and his various "natural cure" remedies and energy drinks that he's tried to sell over the years. I think my "favourite" of these is Rockstar. If you've never heard of it, you should definitely check it out!

It is marketed by Michael Weiner's son, Russell Goldencloud Weiner. Yup... I'm not kidding about that middle name.

If you don't feel like clicking on the Goldencloud link, then let me paste here some of what he has to say about his parents.

"From my earliest walking days, I remember exploring the jungles of the South Pacific on expeditions with my parents, who were on the search for native folk remedies. Over a fifteen year period, they explored the islands of Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, The Cook Islands, Tahiti, and the Marquesas Islands, in search of healing plant remedies used by local plant doctors. My parents spent years in these jungles finding secret remedies and elixirs used by these native plant doctors. At the end of their work, their published book, "Secrets of Fijian Medicine" was given as a gift to the people of Fiji, as a record of their verbal plant healing compendium, for the benefit of the Fijian peoples. "

That research in Fiji became the foundation for Michael Weiner's dissertation at Berkeley in 1978. I find it quite hilarious that his latest books and newest web site state that he has a degree in epidemiology while in fact it was in nutritional ethnomedicine. Call me old fashioned, but looks to me like he's lying. Perhaps the folks have re-defined that word, too.

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by Bipa

Well, I started writing my response "over there", and then realised that it was completely off topic. So I decided that instead of hijacking the thread, I'd just create a new thread in an appropriate area where I would not only be back on topic, but actually creating it as a new one.

If he chooses not to respond then it doesn't really matter. There's nothing new in the conservatives here being unable or unwilling to support broad sweeping statements they've made in the past. You're right, many of them are simply repeating what they've heard without really thinking about it. Easier to talk to a trained parrot sometimes. But I could say the same thing about people on the left side, too. It is us folks sitting on or near the middle that have the toughest situation, getting fired upon from both sides while having to defend positions that don't easily fit any simple definitions or labels.

Speaking of definitions, my Roget's New Millennium Thesaurus has the following listed as synonyms for "conservative": bourgeois, cautious, constant, controlled, conventional, die-hard, fearful, firm, fogyish, fuddy-duddy, guarded, hard hat, hidebound, holding to, illiberal, inflexible, middle-of-the-road, not extreme, obstinate, old guard, old-line, orthodox, quiet, red-neck, right, right-wing, sober, stable, steady, timid, traditional, traditionalistic, unchangeable, unchanging, uncreative, undaring, unimaginative, unprogressive, white bread.

I'm not sure I'd ever feel comfortable in labelling myself a conservative, even though I do hold quite a few traditional views. My left-leaning friends call me "bourgeois", my right-wingers feel I'm too avant-garde and pinkish. I usually end up just wanting to cry out "A plague o' both your houses!" -Mercutio from "Romeo and Juliet" (III, i, 94)


So I feel better just having posted the correct definitions. Of course, I could have gone on at great length about Mr. Weiner a.k.a. Michael Savage, and his various "natural cure" remedies and energy drinks that he's tried to sell over the years. I think my "favourite" of these is Rockstar. If you've never heard of it, you should definitely check it out!

It is marketed by Michael Weiner's son, Russell Goldencloud Weiner. Yup... I'm not kidding about that middle name.

If you don't feel like clicking on the Goldencloud link, then let me paste here some of what he has to say about his parents.

"From my earliest walking days, I remember exploring the jungles of the South Pacific on expeditions with my parents, who were on the search for native folk remedies. Over a fifteen year period, they explored the islands of Fiji, Tonga, Samoa, The Cook Islands, Tahiti, and the Marquesas Islands, in search of healing plant remedies used by local plant doctors. My parents spent years in these jungles finding secret remedies and elixirs used by these native plant doctors. At the end of their work, their published book, "Secrets of Fijian Medicine" was given as a gift to the people of Fiji, as a record of their verbal plant healing compendium, for the benefit of the Fijian peoples. "

That research in Fiji became the foundation for Michael Weiner's dissertation at Berkeley in 1978. I find it quite hilarious that his latest books and newest web site state that he has a degree in epidemiology while in fact it was in nutritional ethnomedicine. Call me old fashioned, but looks to me like he's lying. Perhaps the folks have re-defined that word, too.

I can't really identify myself with the stereotype of a liberal. I don't like trees, and I really don't care if they drill holes every 2 feet in alaska. I just don't like being lied to when I know it's a lie, and they know I know...but they still do it. Just because there was enough alarmists running around to support them. That's my beef right now. Bush should go to jail, and be the but-bunny for that deferment queen Cheney.

Actually, I'm moderate, but will accept the term liberal to get as far away from the neo-conservatism that has gotten us in this mess we are in.

[TheRightWingSVX]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

Bipa, I really don't think therightwingsvx will venture down here. His only purpose on this forum is to sell moth ball pills. He has no other purpose, and only the opinions others have given him. That's why I haven't really been paying any attention to him.

I "do" feel he's going after the right market by calling himself rightwing. In the last few years they've shown themselves to be a little more gullible than the rest of us.

Well I am here now so off with the gloves shall we j/k ! I understand that liberalism as defined by the dictionary is different from what I was refering to in that post. I could try and tell you what I believe it means as I was refering to it, but instead I will refer to another word that is used so much these days that meant something different less than 100 years ago.

That word is DEMOCRACY. This word was not used to describe the government of the UNited States until about 1917 when President Woodrow Wilson used it in a speech, "The World must be safe for Democracy..." of course refering to World War I. However before that we were considered a Republic and or government that of Republicanism.

Here is what our first President had to say, "republicanism is not the phantom of a deluded imagination: on the contrary, that under no form of government , will laws be better supported, liberty and property better secured, or happiness be more effectually dispensed to mankind." (George Washington to Edmund Pendleton, Jan 22, 1795, Writing Vol 34 p.99)

U.S. Army Definition of Democracy, 1928: A government of the masses. Authority derived through mass meeting or any other form of "direct" expression. Results in mobocracy. Attitude toward property is communistic-negating property rights. Attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate , whether it be based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences. Results in demagogism, license, agitation, discontent, anarchy. (United States Army Training Manual No. 2000-25, 1928, p.91.

Then 24 years later it changed:
U.S. Army Definition of Democracy, 1952: Meaning of Democracy: Because the United States is a democracy, the majority of the people decide how our government will be organized and run-and that includes the Army, Navy, and Air Force. The people do this by electing representatives, and these men and women then carry out the wishes of the people. (The Soldiers Guide, Department of the Army Field Manual, FM 21-23, June 1952, p.69)

During the Revolutionary War our Founding Fathers were considerd to be liberals. Our founding fathers would be considerd to be Neo Conservatives or Right Wing Extremists by todays liberals.

Here is what the Father of our Constitution, James Madison, offered as a definition for Republic:
"We may define a republic to be...a government which derives all its powers directly or indirectly from the great body the people, and is administered by persons holding their offices during pleasure for a limited period, or during good behavior. It is essential to such government that it be derived from the great body of the society, not from an inconsiderable portion or a favored class of it; otherwise a handful of tyrannical nobels, excersising their oppressions by a delegation of their powers, might aspire to the rank of republicans and claim for their government the honorable title of republic."

And of DEMOCRACY he said this:
Deocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention: have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths...A republic, by which the scheme of representation takes place, opens a defferent prospect the cure for which we are seeking."

Samuel Adams said:
"Remember, Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself: There never was a democracy that did not commit suicide."

Thomas Babington Macaulay said this:
"I have long been convinced that institutions purely democratic must, sooner or later, destroy liberty or civilization, or both."

So why are we trying to create a Democracy in Iraq . The answer is we have learned nothing from history.

[Electrophil]

You've ventured out! I noticed that a couple of days ago, but it's just now sinking in.

Welcome to the pit! And your last post shows you as a moderate, not a right winger.. What's up?

[TheRightWingSVX]

Well I guess I would consider myseld an Independent Conservative. I don't believe that just cause someone is a Republican theya re right! The laundry list of "Not so Republican"(at least in the Reagan sense) Republican is growing all the time. I am registered Republican so that I can vote in the primary, because I usually end up voting for the republican(would not always be the case, however if Sen. Chuck Hagel (Republican) makes it through the Republican Primary in '08 I will vote for the Democrat !). Otherwise I would be registered Constitution Party, which in Nebraska is the Nebraska Party.

TheRightWingSVX,

Well...howdy and welcome to my favourite neck o' the woods! From the sound of your post, the rest of the world should just relax, kick back with a cool drink, and watch the US self-destruct.

I'm not sure I really like that version of the future any more than the opposite, "US takes over the world" picture that so many folks are bemoaning lately. Just think of all the refugees that Canada and Mexico would have to deal with!

We'd have to finally get serious and plug up those borders


Looking forward to someone new around here. Hope you stick around!