Subaru Cars reliable?

[svxxx26]

Shadow, all I can say for sure is that you have WAYYYYYY too much time on your hands.

And the Moderators have WAYYYY too much patience!

Personally my respect for Green Marine, Mr. Pockets, and others too numerous to mention that have posted in a vain attempt to talk to a brick wall has gone off the charts.

You are obviously a Master of Trolling - and that's about it.

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by GreenMarineSVX
OK ok, since I feel a little like my last post was a little extreme, I will say that the only thing that I don't like about Subaru is the fact that repairs cost so damm much!!! I hade a 1991 Chevy Z-24 as my first car... That was the one that the engine froze on me in the midle of a Snow Storm.... If I wanted to I could have gotten a almost new Engine and tranny put in the thing for $2950!!! That is a pretty good deal, but I just never liked the quality of the American cars... ( that goes for Australian GM cars too )... And just the engineering of Subaru's catches my eye... Boxer engine, AWD, Performance... I don't really care what a car looks like as long as I like driving it... I liked driving my 1981 Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel more than I liked driving that Z-24 around... And the rabbit did 0-60 in about 18 seconds... Slow as hell but I liked it for some wierd reason... Probably because it had close to 300,000 miles on the odo...

See now this is all I ask. Your being reasonable. This is cool. Now I will say I agree with you on the not getting a new engine even though it was such a great deal. That's a great chance to upgrade, and if you decide you would prefer your upgrade to be a change to a foreign car...that's great. But you can't just say "American cars are all junk". Anyone on this site would probably be offended if I just said "Japanese cars are all junk" and it would have erupted into an argument just like this has.

Originally posted by svxxx26
Shadow, all I can say for sure is that you have WAYYYYYY too much time on your hands.

And the Moderators have WAYYYY too much patience!

Personally my respect for Green Marine, Mr. Pockets, and others too numerous to mention that have posted in a vain attempt to talk to a brick wall has gone off the charts.

I've said it before and i'll say it again. I refuse to spend more than 5 minutes at a time on this site. I did so one time because one of the few mature participants in this discussion asked for proof, and rightfully so. So I offered it, and that is just about the only time i've spent any amount of time on this. I have too much other stuff to do than sit here and research all day.

The moderators are supposed to suppress flaming...not mature discussion. I've managed to keep it respectful and so have most of the members of this discussion. Thus the reason this thread is still alive.

And your third remark is a shining example of the hypocracy that exists on this site. You argue with me about import reliability you are "just stating the facts"; I argue about domestic reliability, and immediately im being unreasonable.

Originally posted by svxxx26
You are obviously a Master of Trolling - and that's about it.

Trolling means I am making inflammatory comments simply for the sake of annoyance. If you really think this then you should probably just not read this thread...you obviously don't belong here. This has been a (mostly) mature discussion about reliability among different cars. None of the participants have made any personal stabs or even personal generalizations. Therefore it does not fit, in any way, the definition of trolling.

Now you are just trying anything you can to save face. Why? Everyone here contends that it's obvious that foreign cars are superior to domestics, so then why do you feel you have to attack me personally?

This is what I mean about immature people.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by svxxx26
You are obviously a Master of Trolling - and that's about it.

I don't think this is true at all. I think he's stubborn, but I'm equally as guilty of this as he is. If Shadow's a troll, than so am I.

I was actually concerned about where this thread was going, but it turned out okay. We each said our piece and we're both walking away with something gained for it.

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets
I was actually concerned about where this thread was going, but it turned out okay. We each said our piece and we're both walking away with something gained for it.

I'll drink to that.

[Landshark]

it just came to a standstill. Shadow248 can put up a good arguement without losing his cool, i'll give him credit for that. we have different experiences and different opinions and it was a good contest. no one is probably going to change anyone's mind, so further discussion is kinda pointless. there was no trolling or flame wars - people get way too sensitive sometimes. there's a difference, this was just a few stubborn people with nothing better to do having a worthless discussion.

<raises beer>

[svxxx26]

Ok , Shadow...whatever.

I admit I just grew very tired of it. "Lost my cool".

What got me was that your point was made a long time ago, very early in the thread and quite (if I may say) expansively. And yet - you kept pounding and pounding away, ad infinitum. All in an environment that was becoming decidely hostile. And all on a website that you HAD to figure...and I think you HAD to, as you are somewhat sharp...was going to be a bit irritated.

And to what end?

I'm not in the habit of launching personal attacks here or anywhere else on the web. It's just that it became painfully obvious, the longer this thread stretched - that you were getting exactly the kind of reaction you wanted. In spades.

Hence the term "troll".

So.... go ahead and have another round on me guys. Later.

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by Svxxx26
I admit I just grew very tired of it. "Lost my cool".

Happens to all of us at times.

Originally posted by Svxxx26
What got me was that your point was made a long time ago, very early in the thread and quite (if I may say) expansively. And yet - you kept pounding and pounding away, ad infinitum. All in an environment that was becoming decidely hostile. And all on a website that you HAD to figure...and I think you HAD to, as you are somewhat sharp...was going to be a bit irritated.

Well then I understand why you reacted the way you did. You misunderstood my intentions. I am definetly a person who is set in my ways...but I am also very open-minded. If you think that's not possible then just bear with me for a moment. I have experienced events in life in such a way as to make me believe, based on my experiences, all the data I have read, and what I have been told by others that I know in person (as opposed to dedicated car forums), that American cars are every bit as reliable as Foreign cars. Landshark proposed the exact opposite argument...to me, a non-reality, but the way he presented it showed me that this was the way he perceived reality. I then was curious to understand how his reality came to be so different from mine. I stopped participating in the argument once I understood him. I still disagree with him, but does that really matter?

As for where the argument took place (i.e. on a foreign car site)...where better to learn what makes foreign car lovers love their cars than a foreign car forum? Makes sense doesn't it?

I learned something from the argument and I hope I have given everyone who participated a different perspective on American automobiles. Maybe next time, when a Monte Carlo passes you on the highway you don't think "what a piece of junk" instead maybe now you will be thinking "maybe it's not such a piece of junk after all, but i still don't like it." If that's all I have succeeded in doing, then in my mind I have succeeded.

[Landshark]

Originally posted by Shadow248
Maybe next time, when a Monte Carlo passes you on the highway you don't think "what a piece of junk" instead maybe now you will be thinking "maybe it's not such a piece of junk after all, but i still don't like it." If that's all I have succeeded in doing, then in my mind I have succeeded.

actually, i think "what an UGLY-ASS piece of ..."


ok, done with this thread.........again.

[EveryShadeofBlue]

Ok, I think I can add somewhat of a different perspective to this debate I'm catching up on. As a driver of a GM (Cadillac Catera) car that is made by it's European Subsidiary (Opel), I can report that GM is of inferior quality both home and abroad. While I love my car and wouldn't get rid of it (at least until the warranty runs out in 2006), I am driving around in an "American" car with SVX-type repair costs. The repairs on this car have been abundant and expensive. I think GM could have bought this car back a long time ago and saved money. They have probably spent close to $10,000 fixing it since 2000. I even had a new gas tank put in!

The Cadillac Catera owners club is basically one large b!tchfest with people threatening to sue GM for making such junk, etc. Talking with some friends in Europe, Opel/Vauxhall suffers from the same stigma that Chevy/Pontiac, etc suffers over here: Not as good as <insert European or Japanese company>. GM makes junk abroad and in America. It's the way the company is run. They do not have a committment to quality on either continent. I must say that the actual build quality of the Catera far exceeds anything that is made in the USA and I would personally never own a US made GM automobile. I think Europe has higher expectations of automobiles so GM can't get away with selling a Cavalier in Germany. I laugh at the thought!

I actually understand Shadow's point but it's easy to get burned by bad experiences and have jaded opinions. My SVX was well taken care of but it was still a money pit. That doesn't sour my view of Japanese cars one bit. After owning an SVX, huge repair bills are second nature to me. I am so used to it I don't mind owning another expensive to fix car. The difference this time is that I haven't paid a dime in repairs and the Cadillac dealer treats you like gold and puts you in a loaner car everytime. I have had some real horrible GM loaners: Buick Century (Nasty!), Chevy Impala (Disgusting AND it smelled!), Cadillac Deville (Cheap, but fun to do donuts in and see the expression on people's faces). The only one I liked was the Chevy Tahoe they loaned me.

Ok, so my overall point is that GM is pretty rotten overall and I would pick a Subaru any day of the week over any GM car except the Catera (again, I love the car).

As for the Pontiac GTO which is based on a shortened Catera platform... I sort of like the way it looks and it has good build quality like the Catera. However, people are getting shafted because they made the front look like a Pontiac. The rear is very attractive in my opinion and the interior is a great show of European/Australian design. However, I fear it will be a realiabilty problem like the Catera was and I don't know how Pontiac owners will feel about paying big bucks for repairs on their GTO that looks like a Grand Prix. Paying Subaru/BMW prices for repairs on your "American" car can make one feel pretty foolish.

Jeff

<<Also interesting to note...both the dodge Viper and Chevrolet Corvette beat out the WRX, S2000, and M3 on the skidpad. So much for bad handling. >> (Guess who's quote)

Boy, I got a kick out of this one- let's take the Viper, Vette and WRX out in the rain (or better yet- a snowstorm) and see about 'handling'.....

I've (or my family have) owned ten Subaru's since 1981. I first 'discovered' Subaru's when I made the decision to go '4WD'. Minnesota winters have a tendency to make you look for an 'edge'. Bear in mind, I came very close to buying a Chevy LUV 4WD pickup. Remember them? (When did you last see one of those?- how's that for longevity?)

I came for the 4WD, I stayed for the performance, reliability and serviceability. In the interim, because Subaru didn't offer anything with seating for more than 5, we've also owned a Dodge Colt Vista 4WD Wagon, a Jeep Cherokee, a Plymouth AWD Grand Voyager and now my wife has 'jumped ship' to a Land Rover Freelander S after having driven a '95 Subaru Outback for about 175,000 relatively fault-free miles.

My son has unfortunately fallen in love with GM crap. He has had two Beretta's, and the second one just got towed to the donation center with a siezed engine/driveline. I wrestled with him on more than one occasion trying to do (what would have been for a Subaru) 'simple' maintenance. i.e.; replacing the serpentine belt on the Beretta requires you to remove the motor mount (about an hour + to replace a belt!) Several parts have to be removed just to access the thermostat. Typical GM procedure to drain/replace the ATF requires you to drop the whole pan- Boy, is that an ugly, messy procedure under the best of conditions! (Unlike a Subaru- where you simply open a drain plug. Does a drain plug really cost that much money to engineer in??!!)

I thought he finally 'got it right' when he expressed an interest in a WRX (but then he shifted towards an Acura RSX), but he finally decided instead to spend about $30K on a Chevy Silverado Extended Cab Pickup. I guess he's still learning things the 'hard way'.

A long time ago I heard a saying that still rings true: GM doesn't make cars; GM makes money. They continue to shovel the stuff out without regard to longevity or serviceability. At least Ford and Chrysler still have some pride in putting out a 'complete' product. They're 'car people', not 'bean counters'.

I'll continue to buy Subaru's as long as they can satisfy my transportation needs.

My 2 cents.

-Mark

[Shadow248]

Originally posted by Mark10t
My 2 cents.

Thank you. Did you even read the rest of this thread? You should do so before entering an argument like this (especially since this one has already been settled.

Skidpad in the rain?! Come on! Again, look around the site...this has already been covered in depth. If you are crazy to drive that hard in rain or snow, then no car can save you. Besides...the cars I was speaking of rarely even see snow. You are absolutely right that the Vette and Viper and many others would be completely lost in the snow. But it's a moot point anyway.

We could start YET ANOTHER thread of me and you or anyone else swapping subaru/chevy disaster stories...this also has been done to the point of numbness so I won't even bother. I could write a book with all the foreign car maintenance disasters i've seen and experienced...and that would accomplish nothing.

Your damn right GM makes money. There's a reason for that, but again...this has been covered.

So at the risk of posting yet another novel on car reliability, i'm going to put down the microphone here.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Shadow248
If you are crazy to drive that hard in rain or snow, then no car can save you.

My first autocross was in the rain. And, get this: I beat a 'Vette with my Justy.

I'm not trying to start an argument again, just having fun. But, while I love Subaru cars in the snow or rain, I have to agree that the argument 'let's take my GL against a Ferrari 360 in the snow' is a bit lame. It's like saying 'but if you tied one arm behind your back I could beat you up.'

The Corvette and the WRX are two completely different cars meant to do different things for different price levels. End of story. To compare the $24k WRX with a 'Vette or (even worse) a Viper is ridiculous.

And Shadow's right - we could trade anecdotes all day long and not learn a thing.

[Royal Tiger]

Mark, I'd agree with you on most points, except that when talking about domestic car companies GM regularly beats ford and Chrysler.

<<Did you even read the rest of this thread?>>

Yes, I did; all 9 (or whatever) pages worth of it.

<<Skidpad in the rain?! >>

Well, I'm sorry, but where I live it actually rains! (and snows!), so wet (and even icy) conditions I consider to be a part of 'handling', so they are important to me (I prefer to stay on the road and out of the ditch, thank you). I suppose we could consider only dry, racetrack conditions for evaluating automobile performance, but that wouldn't be very realistic, but then again, there are a lot of people that think that those cars going roundy-round on the NASCAR circuit are only slightly modified versions of the actual GM/Ford/Etc. cars their dealer sells in their showrooms.........

I appreciate the M5, the Corvette and the Viper for what they are, but skid pad numbers are only one little piece of the 'whole' of the value and performance of a vehicle.

<<If you are crazy to drive that hard in rain or snow, then no car can save you.>>

As an example, I select my tires for my everyday summer driving based on their 'wet' traction and my winter tires based upon their 'ice' traction. I figure I am sure to 'find' the 'wet' limits a whole lot sooner in normal driving than I will find the 'dry' limits. I want every advantage, which is why I drive a low center-of-gravity, AWD, ABS-equipped, winter tire-shod SVX this time of year. If I were autocrossing under strictly dry conditions my selection criteria would be much different.

It all depends upon your perspective, of course. If I lived in Arizona, for instance, I probably might not even consider driving Subaru's, because to me, living in Minnesota, the AWD is way important. I see guys driving Mustangs and Camaro's here and I think they're really a stupid car to drive during a Minnesota winter, but then again like I said, I like having 'every advantage'.

<<Your damn right GM makes money. There's a reason for that, but again...this has been covered. >>

Yes, GM makes money, (their shareholders demand it) but their market share is pitiful compared to what it used to be. (BTW- their GMAC Div. probably makes as much money as the 'car' divisions.) The consumer zombies started to wake up and realize there are other vehicles/manufacturers that are offering better products. GM actually has to attempt to make a quality product now if it expects to survive.

<<Mark, I'd agree with you on most points, except that when talking about domestic car companies GM regularly beats ford and Chrysler.>>

Depends upon what you call 'beats'. If you look at sheer quantities, yes, you are probably right. Look back at the thread referring to McDonalds, etc. making the 'best' food.etc. just because of 'numbers'. My point is that Ford and Chrysler still have some 'passion' towards cars. As far as GM is concerned, if they could make more money making furniture or refrigerators than cars, they would.

-Mark

[svxxx26]

Originally posted by Shadow248

Maybe next time, when a Monte Carlo passes you on the highway you don't think "what a piece of junk" instead maybe now you will be thinking "maybe it's not such a piece of junk after all, but i still don't like it." If that's all I have succeeded in doing, then in my mind I have succeeded.

Shadow, you are definitely a success!

Alright I've "simmered down now" ....just let me say ONE MORE THING.....heheh....believe it or not I don't hate American cars. I just have a particular loathing for Luminas and Cavaliers!
My love for Subarus really started quite late in my life - I was a Chrysler/Plymouth/Dodge FANATIC for years and years. And yes, defended them to the max against the foreign competition. That's the way I am, very loyal and very passionate about what I drive. That probably has come through, yes?

I still believe that as far as reliability is concerned, Subaru cannot be beat . That viewpoint comes from my love of the marque AND from my own personal experience.

Anyway...I gotta say...it was a damn interesting thread....