Just for Electrophyllis......

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

You are kidding of course. Lou Dobbs a conservative????? I think you need to check out the real definition of conservative. The only thing I can think of that Lou Dobbs takes a "conservative" position on is Illegal Immigrants.

He was an active supporter of Kerry during the last election. His economic positions are neither Republican or Democrat, but are definitely closer to Demo than Rep and I don't mean in terms of fiscal spending constraints.

He classifys himself as an Independent, but anyone that ACTIVELY supported Kerry is a definite Liberal.

Lee

That's what I keep trying to tell you. The democrats ARE the new conservatives. Have you noticed what the republican party has been doing the last few years?

Republicans aren't conservative anymore... heck, I ain't sure what they are. They run around up there thumping their chests, but the majority never served in the military. They certainly aren't trying to control the size of the government. One look at their budget handling capability makes you want to grab a barf bag. They are running around trying to make everything against the law. They keep on trying to grab every freedom and privacy we have. The president has even called our constitution a "bit of paper". (By the way Bush, you have a history degree - it ain't made out of paper... you should know that.)

The only thing I can come up with is the new republican is a bible thumping moron wanting to turn our country into a theocracy. That's why I'm shocked you are still supporting them. They definitely don't represent you anymore.

[shotgunslade]

Did any of you watch on HBO the documentary made by Barry Goldwater's daughter about him and his values? I find that I agree with a suprising number of his ideas, particularly about keeping the govenment out of people's private lives, about the separation of church and state, about fiscal responsibility and about the importance of integrity. He hated Nixon because he knew Nixon's whole life was a lie. He recognized that Nixon had no basic beliefs except his own ambition. Probably my biggest disagreement with Goldwater was in foreign policy, but you can have a legitimate disagreement with someone for whom you have respect. I used to have a lot of respect for John McCain, until he started rubbing up against Bob Jones University and Jerry Falwell to bolster his presidential bid for 2008. Barry would never compromise his integrity in such a fashion.

The current crop of neocons are descendants of Nixon. They harp on Americanism and militarism, but few if any were in the military, most did all they could to stay out of it, and even those who were did "military light." Cheney, Rove, George Allen, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Dennis Hastert, and even "W", all public patriots who somehow or another missed out on the chance to fulfill their patriotism in Vietnam. (Full disclosure, I was an enlisted man in the Navy, but received a medical discharge because of a severe leg fracture off-duty and never saw Vietnam) So these "sofa soldiers" question the patriotism of John Kerry, Jim Webb and John Murtha, and Max Cleland.

What I don't understand is what they he!! do they believe in, other than personal aggrandizement? What are their basic values? If they were so patriotic, why did they pursue every means to stay out of the military. If they are such believers in constitutional purity, why do they challenge habeas corpus and want wire-taps without warrants. Furthermore, why are they so antagonistic to the ACLU, which works really hard to preserve the bill of rights in the face of those who would abridge those rights and freedoms. If they are such believers in equality, why do their campaign ads appeal to our basest divisive feelings?

I think the role of closet gays in the modern Republican party is very instructive. They aren't the Barney Frank's who are up front about who they are. They are people who live a lie, who support the anti-same-sex-marriage amendment, who oppose gay rights, who exploit anti-gay feelings in their campaigns, and then chase underage pages with smutty e-mails. It is all about lack of integrity, about saying whatever you feel will give you public advantage, no matter what you really are or what you have done.

[TomsSVX]

Didn't read through a lot of the Jargan that consumes this thread... Academic prose do not impress me nor does the filler included... I have one question for Republican supporters

Why... why in God's name do you believe that the war in Iraq and the War on Terrorism is a good idea?? Having researched ENORMOUS amounts of info on this subject, my support for this war has dwindled to nothing and I can no longer find any solid evidence that we should continue the sherade in the middle east

Tom

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Didn't read through a lot of the Jargan that consumes this thread... Academic prose do not impress me nor does the filler included... I have one question for Republican supporters

Why... why in God's name do you believe that the war in Iraq and the War on Terrorism is a good idea?? Having researched ENORMOUS amounts of info on this subject, my support for this war has dwindled to nothing and I can no longer find any solid evidence that we should continue the sherade in the middle east

Tom

TomsSVX! I've never seen you down here in pundit land before. An actual stage III honors us!

I agree, no reason for it, and our military aren't suppose to be missionaries anyway.
I think that's about reason #3, but the most current reason.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by shotgunslade

The current crop of neocons are descendants of Nixon. They harp on Americanism and militarism, but few if any were in the military, most did all they could to stay out of it, and even those who were did "military light." Cheney, Rove, George Allen, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, Dennis Hastert, and even "W", all public patriots who somehow or another missed out on the chance to fulfill their patriotism in Vietnam. So these "sofa soldiers" question the patriotism of John Kerry, Jim Webb and John Murtha, and Max Cleland.

So funny. As usual you only tell half of the story and forget the other half. What about good ol' Willie Boy Clinton---now he was a REAL draft dodger. And you poke fun at Bush for his service. I had a cousin in the Air National Guard that spent more time in Vietnam than Kerry did.

And good ol' Max---drops his own grenade in a safe base camp. A tragic accident, but hardly the thing to brag about or use as an example of heroism.

Closet gays??---I seem to recall some Demos that fit the same category, so don't forget that half of the story too.

Like you and your thoughts on McCain---I feel the same about Murtha.

Kerry is a totally different story. He should have been tried for treason.

I don't point fingers at those that serve---IN ANY MANNER. Whatever military service they were in, it was serving and they could have been deployed as we have seen in Iraqi Freedom. Draft dodgers and traitors are totally something else.

Why did you join the Navy instead of Army or Marines----maybe to "serve", but in the least likely service to see any real Vietnam duty. But, like I said---I don't seriously question that service either. At least you were serving your country and I respect that. Not everyone is cut out to be in Infantryman and serving in any capacity supports the total effort.

Lee

[Electrophil]

During the vietnam era, the Navy and Air Force did not take advantage of the draft. The draft was only being used by the Army and Marine Corps. Not one person was ever "drafted" into the Navy and Air Force. The exceptions would be the ones who didn't beat the lottery, and were able to manipulate the system and slide into the Navy/Air Force after their number was drawn.

So technically.... everyone in the Navy and Airforce were volunteers. They volunteered either due to patriotism, economics, or to beat the lottery. Probably a few more reasons there, but that would be the majority.

Some didn't beat the lottery, and they never volunteered for anything. They merely received a notice from the government ordering them to military service. And since only the Army and Marine Corps were using the draft......

People who blow up their own legs may be counted into that number, I haven't a clue what his motivations were. If he dropped a granade on himself, that wasn't the smartest move. But..... in the heat of battle, stuff happens.

I do know if I hear someone say "Then after I was drafted....", it dilutes in my mind any perceptions of a strong patriotism they may have. Not running off to Canada isn't a patriot in my eyes, it's merely someone following the traffic laws.

And volunteering.... is that a patriotic thing? Well, we all get out and say it is because we want to be proud of ourselves.

I'll be honest. My reason for joining was to get the heck out of Morristown Tn. I also had fantasies of hitting foreign ports and sleeping with exotic women. They turned out not to be exactly exotic, but they were inexpensive.

How I ended up staying in 21 years is still a mystery to me. It just kind of happened. Life is like that. Does that still give me certain rights to say certain things that non-veterans need to refrain from? Yes... it does. I still served. And that's where I agree with Lee. Bush did serve, and I respect that. It's the AWOL part I have the concern with. He wasn't following the traffic laws.

[lhopp77]

[QUOTE=Electrophil]
People who blow up their own legs may be counted into that number, I haven't a clue what his motivations were. If he dropped a granade on himself, that wasn't the smartest move. [QUOTE]

Again, I do not demean his service, just that he and other Demo leaders use him as a quad "hero" party mouthpiece. He dropped the grenade IN A SAFE BASE camp, NOT in the heat of battle as the commercials liked to imply. But he served honorably and would not have been mutilated if he had refused to serve. I only question the honesty of the implication of the circumstances.

There is still no proof that Bush was ever AWOL, so why do you still spread that fabrication????? He served all of his required time and was honorably discharged.

I have no problem with those that chose to beat the draft by joining the AF or Navy. Those services needed people also and at least they served. There were quite a few AF casualties in VN and they did a great job.

Lee

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

There is still no proof that Bush was ever AWOL, so why do you still spread that fabrication????? He served all of his required time and was honorably discharged.



Lee

So he didn't leave his cushy stateside position to go work on a campaign? During wartime?

[shotgunslade]

No need for me to post here any more.

Lee:

You don't deserve the experience of an SVX and that is the most damning thing I can say.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by shotgunslade

No need for me to post here any more.

Lee:

You don't deserve the experience of an SVX and that is the most damning thing I can say.

Watch the door.

Well, it seems opinions are like that proverbial part of the anatomy---everyone has one.

Actually, I think I have probably enjoyed the true experience of the SVX as it was designed and intended for longer than most current owners. I just took a trip yesterday---550 miles round trip on high speed roads and averaged better than 73 MPH for the entire trip (speed limit was 75 and it is safe to drive 85 without fear of a ticket). It is a medium high speed cruising, touring car and should be enjoyed as just that. Anything else is a abomination to its designers and builders. (Just my opinion)

Lee

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

So he didn't leave his cushy stateside position to go work on a campaign? During wartime?

Better than running to France to provide aid and comfort to the enemy while insulting former buddies that were still fighting.

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

Watch the door.

Well, it seems opinions are like that proverbial part of the anatomy---everyone has one.

Actually, I think I have probably enjoyed the true experience of the SVX as it was designed and intended for longer than most current owners. I just took a trip yesterday---550 miles round trip on high speed roads and averaged better than 73 MPH for the entire trip (speed limit was 75 and it is safe to drive 85 without fear of a ticket). It is a medium high speed cruising, touring car and should be enjoyed as just that. Anything else is a abomination to its designers and builders. (Just my opinion)

Lee

Lee, you are really barking up the wrong tree here. I love my SVX I drive both of them all the time. One is for the highway cruising and one is for kickin it... You don't even understand what kind of reality it is to get in a prepared car and take it on the track... Something you will pass on never experiencing and believe me when I say it, you are missing out.

Besides all that... No one has answered my question. A left leaner would be quick to answer this with bashes of current politcal leaders but I want to hear what a right winger has to say... You love your Republican Gov't so much, tell me why we are in Iraq and other places in the Middle East. And please Elaborate as to why the US will not sever it's military and economic ties with Isreal? The #1 reason Osama bin Laden sent the attacks of the African embassies in '98, to USS Cole in '00, and the attacks of 9/11/01 has been stated clearly by bin Laden that it is because of Islamic oppression due to American occupation of Saudi Arabi and the American Gov's ties with the Isreali gov't and military... So why do we push so hard to keep this?? Why does it cost so many US soldiers' lives that we do EXACTLY what bin Laden hates?? You cannot find him, you cannot beat him. Just back the **** out of the middle East and you can go back to your real issues at hand... Like why Right wingers HATE gay marraige... Don't even get me started on that... Who's ****ing business is it that two PEOPLE cannot get married. I grow tired of Right wing bull**** and I grow tired of their antics. It is a shame that we toss serving men's lives up in the meat grinder with all sense of open mindedness. Republicans need to get out of office

Tom

[Electrophil]

Well... Lee? Tom has some great questions there.

Care to let us in on these secrets?

Cause most of us haven't figured out why you are still supporting them.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Lee, you are really barking up the wrong tree here. I love my SVX I drive both of them all the time. One is for the highway cruising and one is for kickin it... You don't even understand what kind of reality it is to get in a prepared car and take it on the track... Something you will pass on never experiencing and believe me when I say it, you are missing out.

Besides all that... No one has answered my question. A left leaner would be quick to answer this with bashes of current politcal leaders but I want to hear what a right winger has to say... You love your Republican Gov't so much, tell me why we are in Iraq and other places in the Middle East. And please Elaborate as to why the US will not sever it's military and economic ties with Isreal? The #1 reason Osama bin Laden sent the attacks of the African embassies in '98, to USS Cole in '00, and the attacks of 9/11/01 has been stated clearly by bin Laden that it is because of Islamic oppression due to American occupation of Saudi Arabi and the American Gov's ties with the Isreali gov't and military... So why do we push so hard to keep this?? Why does it cost so many US soldiers' lives that we do EXACTLY what bin Laden hates?? You cannot find him, you cannot beat him. Just back the **** out of the middle East and you can go back to your real issues at hand... Like why Right wingers HATE gay marraige... Don't even get me started on that... Who's ****ing business is it that two PEOPLE cannot get married. I grow tired of Right wing bull**** and I grow tired of their antics. It is a shame that we toss serving men's lives up in the meat grinder with all sense of open mindedness. Republicans need to get out of office

Tom

In the first place--I have definitely driven "prepared" cars in my long years. Probably ones with more horsepower than you will ever drive.

As for Bin Laden---Clinton had him and did nothing about it---so much for left wingers.

As to Iraq--instead of getting on your high horse, why don't you check with the soldiers that are going through it and sacrificing all in some cases. What do they think?? Do THEY think we should be there?? You will find that the vast majority fully believe in what they are doing and don't want limp wristed pacifists pleading their case. THEY know why they are there as do most of us "right wingers".

Gay marriage--you damn right I am against it. Marriage is for opposite sexes to propagate the species. Again, as I have stated before----I have NO problem with civil unions to protect property rights of gay couples.

Also, for the record the US has NEVER occupied Saudia Arabia.

As to our support for Israel. I happen to agree that many times we support them to much and go to far in that support. I DO however, believe they have the right to exist and deserve the support given any country in that effort. While Israel may cause problems for us with the Muslim world---I think you need to review the radical Muslim beliefs and stated goals before you assume that we would not have any problems if we did not support Israel. As a pragmatist, I also fully understand the neither of our political parties will sell Israel down the river.. Both the Democrats and Republicans depend on the money and the Democrats depend on the Jewish vote---they get 80 percent of it.

Lee

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

In the first place--I have definitely driven "prepared" cars in my long years. Probably ones with more horsepower than you will ever drive.

-So you are saying you do not enjoy this?? I mean come on... The view of keeping all SVXi stock is as outdated as 8 tracks

As for Bin Laden---Clinton had him and did nothing about it---so much for left wingers.

- Clinton did not kill him then and there for one reason... He didn't have the backing of the rest of the Gov't to do it, so instead of assasinating him, he had his hands tied.

As to Iraq--instead of getting on your high horse, why don't you check with the soldiers that are going through it and sacrificing all in some cases. What do they think?? Do THEY think we should be there?? You will find that the vast majority fully believe in what they are doing and don't want limp wristed pacifists pleading their case. THEY know why they are there as do most of us "right wingers".

- Take a look around any major city... You will find that a great deal homeless people are veterans, mostly of Vietnam and Korea. Why not ask these soldiers what they think of the war when they get home and have no jobs or homes to go to. Thanks to the excellent work of our government helping them to adapt back into society.

Gay marriage--you damn right I am against it. Marriage is for opposite sexes to propagate the species. Again, as I have stated before----I have NO problem with civil unions to protect property rights of gay couples.

- Once again your ignorance astounds me. Marriage is the holy union of two people to be seen under God as bound to eachother for the rest of their lives. Don't confuse that with the once again outdated ideals that sex comes after marraige. Sex is the way we repopulate this earth to be compeltely honest, less of it will lead to a decrease in the exploding birth rate which would be a very good thing for the entire earth. In short, your user title explains you outlook on this subject... Open your mind to new things or else you will be left behind. I know of a time when southern Whites refused the marriage of a black and a white... Guess what, that theory has **** the bucket and so will the subject of gay marriage. Whether you like it or not, their will be gay people and they will want to get married and people like me and anyone else who is worldly in any sense will agree... get out of the stone ages when homosexuality was a mental disorder

Also, for the record the US has NEVER occupied Saudia Arabia.

- SO you are saying the U.S. Military never had a presence in Saudi Arabia?? just because they weren't controlling what was going on they were still there

As to our support for Israel. I happen to agree that many times we support them to much and go to far in that support. I DO however, believe they have the right to exist and deserve the support given any country in that effort. While Israel may cause problems for us with the Muslim world---I think you need to review the radical Muslim beliefs and stated goals before you assume that we would not have any problems if we did not support Israel. As a pragmatist, I also fully understand the neither of our political parties will sell Israel down the river.. Both the Democrats and Republicans depend on the money and the Democrats depend on the Jewish vote---they get 80 percent of it.

-Like I have mentioned earlier. I have done a great deal of research regarding Muslim beliefs. Osama will not stop there if we do withdrawl support from Isreal. The reason most of Americans are torn on the issue or lean so far to defending the war is a lack of information. To this day, not a single person in the US knows why Osama orchestrated the attacks of Semptember 11th. We only linked him to some people that were involved... In fact I still have a hard time believing that he was involved in a major way. He just took credit for it. Besides all of that, Do you know what % of the voting population is Jewish?? Even if the Demo's do have 80% of their vote... it is not substantial enough that it would be the downfall of any campaign.

You make good arguments but your logic and theology is WAY outdated. You are infact an Old Timer and I can honestly say this country is doomed to destruction until you stubborn old ****s get the **** out of office and into your retirement homes.

Lee

Sorry for the rant but I had to say it

Tom