Let the impeachment rumblings begin.

[Manarius]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

The president got the vote under false pretenses, and he put us in war under false pretenses.

It's time he went to jail for it, with Cheney in the next cell over.

Phil you're exactly right. This whole "Saddam may have had.." bs is courtesy of the neocons and their "We only watch Fox news" press releases. We all know that Saddam had nothin', he never did, and never will (he's dead now so..). Besides, all the weapons those God-Forsaken "terrorists" are using to shoot at us came from....us! Iraq is George W Bush's Vietnam - only without the censored information that LBJ got back in the late 60's. This phony war was built on God knows what and now good Americans are paying for it with their lives and your children and my children are going to be paying for it for the rest of their lives paying off the 9 trillion dollar deficit!

As I see it, there are two solutions:
1. Pull the hell out of Iraq right now. We're not going to accomplish anything there. The false government we set up isn't going to do anything and it'll just have to be turned into dictatorship to keep the crazy people under control.

-OR-

2. Shoot everything that moves. I mean, no geneva convention, no nothing. Make it like REAL war. If you're out, you're getting shot. Shoot first, ask questions later. Wage a real war, not this..whatever you wanna call it - fighting with your hands tied behind your back tied to a chair. Sure, there will be lots of death and destruction, but we'll wipe out those vermin for good. Granted, they'll just pop up somewhere else, but maybe next time we can make them come here and attack us like a real "country" or whatever the hell they are.

Iraq was a major mistake, and I don't care what senator said it was okay - Democrat or not.

I also resent that you hold my opinion as less valued because I watched Fahrenheit 9/11. Nowhere did I say it was my Bible or that I believed it 100%. However, there are some things in there that CANNOT be denied, slanted or not. I know it's slanted, what do you think I am, some yuppie liberal like Hillary Clinton!? For God's sake.

[RSVX]

Originally Posted by Manarius

maybe next time we can make them come here and attack us like a real "country" or whatever the hell they are.

OK, so you *want* them to attack us here? Interesting... to say the least.

Originally Posted by Manarius

I also resent that you hold my opinion as less valued because I watched Fahrenheit 9/11. Nowhere did I say it was my Bible or that I believed it 100%. However, there are some things in there that CANNOT be denied, slanted or not. I know it's slanted, what do you think I am, some yuppie liberal like Hillary Clinton!? For God's sake.

The way you type about certain topics... Yes... yes I do.

[Landshark]

Originally Posted by Manarius

We all know that Saddam had nothin', he never did, and never will (he's dead now so..).

oh, so you've been to Iraq and conducted a thorough search before all the stalling tactics Saddam put up?
answer me this:
if you had nothing to hide, wouldn't you allow weapons inspectors to fully search your stuff, so they would get the hell out and you wouldn't have to deal with sanctions for no reason? the Soviet Union would come up clean if they were given the amount of time Saddam had to dismantle/hide/export WMD's.

....maybe next time we can make them come here and attack us like a real "country" or whatever the hell they are.

wow. just, wow. after reading that, i see were you're coming from now......"special education".
i wonder if your view would change if your family was captured by foreign invaders on our soil and tortured or killed?

[Manarius]

Originally Posted by Landshark

if you had nothing to hide, wouldn't you allow weapons inspectors to fully search your stuff, so they would get the hell out and you wouldn't have to deal with sanctions for no reason?

Why should my rights be violated by someone searching my stuff? Granted the situation is different with me as a citizen vs. me as a country. If I was a country, I'm bound by the laws of the UN (if I'm in the UN, which Saddam was), so I'm bound by law to have no nukes. I don't like when people search for no good reason, but the UN had the right to search and he didn't let them search to their full extent (so he was breaking UN law). That doesn't mean we as the "police of the world" (which we shouldn't be), have the right to just kick down the door in the name of justice. We are not an "attack first" first country - never were until Vietnam, and we see how well that went.

Originally Posted by Landshark

wow. just, wow. after reading that, i see were you're coming from now......"special education".
i wonder if your view would change if your family was captured by foreign invaders on our soil and tortured or killed?

I'd be far more inclined to wanna fight them off our soil, instead of attacking them for no good reason. Do I want them to attack here? No. I want them to attack something of ours first. We have no right to go attack people for no good reason - and what we "think" isn't good enough.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by Aredubjay

I'm not saying screw-ups didn't happen. But I will say that I believe it was the right thing to do. And, I'm not sayin' all's lookin' hunkey-dorey. But I will say we've got to put in the time it takes to get the job done. AFTER the job's done, people can ***** all they want to, but, for now, let's get behind the home team and quit emboldening those who hate us, by making them feel legitimized.

Loud and clear! Amen!

Lee

[Aredubjay]

Originally Posted by Manarius

Phil you're exactly right. This whole "Saddam may have had.." bs is courtesy of the neocons and their "We only watch Fox news" press releases. We all know that Saddam had nothin', he never did, and never will (he's dead now so..). Besides, all the weapons those God-Forsaken "terrorists" are using to shoot at us came from....us! Iraq is George W Bush's Vietnam - only without the censored information that LBJ got back in the late 60's. This phony war was built on God knows what and now good Americans are paying for it with their lives and your children and my children are going to be paying for it for the rest of their lives paying off the 9 trillion dollar deficit!

As I see it, there are two solutions:
1. Pull the hell out of Iraq right now. We're not going to accomplish anything there. The false government we set up isn't going to do anything and it'll just have to be turned into dictatorship to keep the crazy people under control.

-OR-

2. Shoot everything that moves. I mean, no geneva convention, no nothing. Make it like REAL war. If you're out, you're getting shot. Shoot first, ask questions later. Wage a real war, not this..whatever you wanna call it - fighting with your hands tied behind your back tied to a chair. Sure, there will be lots of death and destruction, but we'll wipe out those vermin for good. Granted, they'll just pop up somewhere else, but maybe next time we can make them come here and attack us like a real "country" or whatever the hell they are.

Iraq was a major mistake, and I don't care what senator said it was okay - Democrat or not.

I also resent that you hold my opinion as less valued because I watched Fahrenheit 9/11. Nowhere did I say it was my Bible or that I believed it 100%. However, there are some things in there that CANNOT be denied, slanted or not. I know it's slanted, what do you think I am, some yuppie liberal like Hillary Clinton!? For God's sake.

Jason,
First of all, please let me note that I respect and, actually, value your opinion.

As far as "wars" go, we have (I include myself, and I missed being drafted for viet nam by "that" much) have been spoiled. The "wars" that we have fought in the last three decades have not been wars. The lives that have been given in this war -- every one of them precious, all valued and I'm in no way trying to belittle their sacrifice -- are but a fraction of the lives that were given in a single battle in past "wars." WWII went from 1939 to 1945. 407,300 military men and women gave their lives. That's an average of almost 70,000 per year. We lost 20,000 alone in the "Battle of the Bulge" which lumbered on for an entire month. In the battle of Gettysburg, there were over 40,000 American lives lost -- 23,000 Union Soldiers and 20,000 Confederates -- again, in just ONE battle. All tolled, almost one million lives were lost in a war that lasted around 4 years. We've become such a McDonald's (instant gratification), Bic Click (use it once and throw it away) society that we can't imagine what a real war is. We've also become so dad-gummed politically correct that we can't fight a conventional war, conventionally.

So, the war's not "popular." What war really is? But just think about this: If Abraham Lincoln had led the Civil War by popular opinion, we'd all be living under the Stars and Bars, instead of the Stars and Stripes today.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Aredubjay

I'm not saying screw-ups didn't happen. But I will say that I believe it was the right thing to do. And, I'm not sayin' all's lookin' hunkey-dorey. But I will say we've got to put in the time it takes to get the job done. AFTER the job's done, people can ***** all they want to, but, for now, let's get behind the home team and quit emboldening those who hate us, by making them feel legitimized.

Randy, all the guns at Fort Revor are shooting for you.

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by RSVX

I'm sorry, but I may have misread...

No, wait a minute... I didn't!!!

Nowhere.. and I mean NOWHERE in Randy's post did he mention jack sh!t about a war on terror...

So you tell me who is propagating this crap, cause it certainly wasn't him...

In fact, the word "terror" was spoken (typed 7 times on this page of the thread (including this one))... and 5 of them were in Phils post...


And oh yeah, I agree with everything in Randy's post...

Randy said quote: "We can fight it there, or fight it here."

Just exactly what do you think he meant by that?

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by Aredubjay

So, the war's not "popular." What war really is? But just think about this: If Abraham Lincoln had led the Civil War by popular opinion, we'd all be living under the Stars and Bars, instead of the Stars and Stripes today.

The concern is not that the war is unpopular, the concern lies that it is an unjust and unnecessary war. War is a tool of last resort. This wasn't last resort in any sense of the term, even if the President and Vice President actually believed the BS they were spewing at the onset. (Which they didn't)

They need to be held accountable. And we need to keep tagging that point until they are held accountable.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Electrophil

The concern is not that the war is unpopular, the concern lies that it is an unjust and unnecessary war. War is a tool of last resort. This wasn't last resort in any sense of the term, even if the President and Vice President actually believed the BS they were spewing at the onset. (Which they didn't)

They need to be held accountable. And we need to keep tagging that point until they are held accountable.

You are accusing both your President and the next in line, of absolute dishonesty, in making a decision which is beyond your comprehension. You express opinions based on here-say not factual evidence.

As a person of intelligence, would you please advise as to how history would have unfolded, if your course of action had been followed. All is easy after the fact.

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by Trevor

You are accusing both your President and the next in line, of absolute dishonesty, in making a decision which is beyond your comprehension. You express opinions based on here-say not factual evidence.

As a person of intelligence, would you please advise as to how history would have unfolded, if your course of action had been followed. All is easy after the fact.

That's not true. There is fact. This administration changed their story several times to achieve their goal. This is all documented fact.

Reminder of the "last months" prior to the invasion.

1: We must remove Saddam to liberate the people of Iraq and release them from the sufferings of the sanctions.

Our media went insane due to the prior comments from Bush on "Nation Building". This is actually the first use of the term "Flip Flopping" I had heard and was way prior to Kerry. The administration backed off.

9/11 occurred.

2: We must remove Saddam, for he is an immediate threat to our security.

Saddam said "How? How am I an immediate threat, or any kind of threat to the United States? I pose no threat, your president is a liar and has his own agenda. He wishes to invade my country, and he is seeking excuses." (CNN interview, Mar 2002)

The term WMD is born. All of a sudden, all we hear is where the WMD's are from Cheney, Bush, and Rumsfield on Fox news.

Saddam throws the inspectors out in protest.

2: We must remove Saddam for he is not cooperating with the United Nations.

Saddam allows the inspectors back in.

3: We must remove Saddam for he is an immediate threat to our country, take 2.

Fox picks up the banter. Everyone else first ignores, but the WMD ticket is growing like wildfire due to Bush's negligence on 9/11. Fox pushes the "We must support the president in times of Crisis!" to the point of nausea.

4: We must remove Saddam for he is not allowing inspectors into his home.

Congress passes legislation allowing the President to make the War decision if necessary. Only a couple say no, for the Fox banter of "Support your president in times of crisis!" has taken full hold, and the ones of us who are thinking are stifled by the madness.

Saddam let them into his main residence... nothing of course was found. Statesmen don't keep cyanide gas in their refrigerator.

5: Saddam, you have 72 hours to leave Iraq, or we will invade.
This is the most important one to remember then. It wasn't a hindsight thing. Leave, or I invade is not a reason to put us at war.

Saddam refuses, we invade.

Mission Accomplished!! Flight suit photo op!!

Reality sinks in with the mindless Fox followers.

6: We invaded due to WMD's.... none found.

7: We invaded due to Saddam's links to terrorism...... no links found.

8: We invaded to liberate the Iraqi people from a heartless dictator.

This brings us up to date, doesn't it? We are sacrificing our countrymen as missionaries for a President who doesn't believe in Nation Building?

None of that was hindsight stuff. A bunch of us were kicking and screaming the whole way.... myself included. We still are! And still.... to this day, there are some that are still in the mindset they were in the Fox News "Support your president" scheme. Some of you "still" haven't wakened.

There were lots of suspicions from the very beginning. Libby is in trouble right now over those suspicions by top level personnel...BEFORE the war occurred.

No.... a bunch of bible thumping, neo-con, uneducated nimrods sat around listening to Fox, and gave him some sort of validation. Most of those guys have now been chased back to the titty bar where they belong, and out of politics.

Now it's time to get the two most responsible for causing all the non-existant hype, and put them in jail.

It's only an investigation away, and putting Cheney on the stand with Libby may help out a bit. We don't have the Nixon tapes this time, but there is still plenty of evidence to make a case to investigate, and find the real evidence.

How much has Haliburton made off of Iraq and Afghanistan anyway? What about that pipeline Haliburton is building through Afghanistan that permission had stalled prior to 9/11? Why is a former foreign consultant to Haliburton now the leader of that country? These aren't "conspiracies", or rumors.. They are dead on facts that aren't even the least bit hidden. What kind of a hint do we need there were hidden agendas not in our national interests to invade?

There is no huge terrorist threat. There is a threat, but it is no larger than it was in the 80's or 90's. It's just that in 2001, the idiots allowed a huge one to slip through.

Who got medals for that?

All this is going to come out. It's going to hit. And even you have to agree.... The war was unjustified from day one.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Trevor

.

As a person of intelligence, would you please advise as to how history would have unfolded, if your course of action had been followed. All is easy after the fact.

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by Trevor

I'll just throw out 10 at random without putting too much thought into it.

1: No civil war in Iraq
2: 600 Billion less tacked on to our National debt, and the resulting yearly interest payments.
3: 3 thousand less 19 to 38 year olds in our gene pool still alive
4: Countless Iraqi's still alive
5: No loss of respect from foreign countries.
6: Republicans would still run congress
7: Less terrorist breeding grounds.
8: Far less anger in the middle east driving terrorism
9: More effort and troops placed on finding the criminal responsible for 9/11
10: A check and balance against Iran would still be in place with Iran's fear of Saddam Hussein playing in our corner, and causing them to be more cooperative.

That's just a quick, no real order, right off the top of my head three minute list.

There's more of course, and those may not be the most important.

[Manarius]

#4: 34,000 Iraqi's died last year alone.

[Aredubjay]

Originally Posted by Trevor

Randy, all the guns at Fort Revor are shooting for you.

Trevor, my man! How's my old Kiwi friend? Hope all's well and keep the cannons at Fort Revor blazin'!