Close to another World War?

[Stilor]

Please understand the perspective of Lee (lhopp77) and me, we have lived the majority of our lives with the threat of Soviet mutual assured destruction.

I understand that. I am just trying to explain that these old fears are not the reason to paint Georgia as an innocent victim and Russia as a ruthless aggressor.

How do you describe Putin?

A man who managed to restore at least some extent of order in the failing country.

The previous president, Yeltsin, may be viewed by some western people as liberal and progressive - "he crushed the evil empire". However, many people in Russia view him as a man who brought the country down. He is called a democrat, but was it democratic to use the military against the parliament which impeached him? That clash between executive and legislative branches left about 200 people killed during people's protests. Though some opposition claims that there is no right of speech in Russia with Putin as its lead, I am yet to hear about any demonstration after 2000 which resulted in such casualties.

During Yeltsin days, the inflation was over 200 percent annually. You may have heard of 1998 economic collapse in Russia - when the prices tripled (!!!) in a matter of several days. Imagine the shame Russians faced when their president fell of from stairs, being visibly drunk? During his presidency, the law enforcement was almost void, the corruption went rampant (the vestiges of this corruption is hard to eradicate even now).

Notsurprisingly, Putin IS viewed as a far better alternative by many in Russia. Mass media may cry about election results being doctored - but among my friends, relatives and acquaintances most people voted for him. Actually, there was not much of a choice: Zyuganov (who leads the Communist Party), Zhirinovsky (who can't be considered seriously; it's the "aggressive" guy in Russian politics - he is famous for his suggestion to "wash the army's boots in the Indian ocean"), and Yavlinsky/Nemtsov/Gaidar (most people distrust them since they were ruling the Russian economy during Yeltsin days).

Georgia, right or wrong is a democracy.

That's also questionable. Would you call a country democratic if the opposition meetings are dispersed using the water jet guns?

Noriega was a drug cartel money launderer, among other moral short comings. The canal is vital to the world, a pin head could not be allowed to control it.

But, according to Wikipedia, US even supported Noriega's drug business until he got out of hand. On the other hand, Caucasus is a very volatile region and a pin head leading one of the largest states in that region can cause much grief and sorrow.

How do you explain the destruction of a vital rail bridge by Russian troops that is a big part of the Georgian economy?

First thing is that Russia's officials deny any involvement with that destruction. It could just as well be a Georgian provocation to blame Russia of not following the cease-fire.

Even if it was destroyed by Russian troops (again, I am not so sure about that), ask yourself: how do you explain destruction of bridges in Iraq? That's obvious: aside from their economy value, the bridges are an element of military infrastructure, allowing for quick movement of large troops.

Did you see any Georgian apartment buildings burning and showing signs of artillery attacks?

You are probably referring to the footage that CNN ran claiming it was a Georgian city of Gori. Above I already posted the link where the cameraman who actually shot that footage swears it was Tskhinval (capital of S. Ossetia), not Gori.

There was another footage which shows a building with one or two blasted windows. That's not the damage an air bomb would leave, isn't it? Russian military explained that footage saying that a nearby armory was bombed. The bombs/missiles that were kept at that base detonated, with shards flying over to the apartment building.

There was yet another set of photos from some Ukrainian reporter, Garanich if I recall his last name correctly. He later admitted in an interview that these photos were staged and do not depict real victims.

So I am yet to see the pictures of Georgian apartment buildings targeted, not suffering from collateral damage.

Why would Russian troops haul off Georgian patrol boats?

As far as I heard, they were burned down, not hauled off. If you look on the map, you'll notice that another breakaway Georgian province, Abkhazia, is also on the Black sea coast. Georgia more than once threatened to use its Navy against Abkhazia. So I'd say it's all in line with destroying Georgia's offensive weapons.

How long will Russian troops remain in Georgia?

According to the news, they are already withdrawn.

What is your view of life in the Soviet gulags?

Never been there, you know. What is your view of American jails and prisons?

What Russian leaders do you admire and why do you admire them?

Please clarify, do you mean today's politicians or all leaders during the Russian history?

I apologize for my rants yesterday.

Apologies accepted.

Is it your position that Russian armored units that ended up in Georgia are always along the Russian border north of the Ossetias?

Small correction: North Ossetia is a part of Russia, so it is not correct to say "north of Ossetias" - Russia may have the troops in North Ossetia to protect its border.

Judging by the list of corps - yes. Remember, Russia has had its own "sore spot" in Caucasus, Chechnya, for many years, so it is not surprising that the military presence is somewhat increased in that region. For example, you'd see that some of the corps were normally stationed in Mozdok - that's a Chechen city.

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by Stilor

And the last but not the least: I thought one of the American values was the right of speech, so that even being a US citizen, you don't have to agree with everything the government does.

Damn right. Big G works for US, not the other way around.

Another world war would also be pretty cool. You can never have enough waste and destruction I always say. Maybe then they'll retire the WW2 FPS genre.

[dromano]

Associated Press as of 1 AM EDST reported that Russian troops and APC's remain in Poti & Senaki base. Aprox 1400 Russian troops are creating buffer zones in Georgia to protect S Ossetia & Abkhazia, this is in violation of the peace agreement.

USA prisons are not populated with political dissidents who are not criminals.

What is the political affiliation of the opposition to the current Georgian leader ship?

I don't watch CNN.

I saw on FNC zodiac type patrol boats (25'-30' long) being hauled off on Russian flat bed trailers at Poti. The ships destroyed by Russia were too large to haul off so were destroyed and sunk in port.

Will Russia ever pay for their destruction to Georgia's infrastructure?

Will Russia provide aid to the 150000+ displaced homeless Georgians? USA has made several flights to Georgia with relief supplies and several US Navy ships are headed to Georgia with relief supplies.

We must thank our fore fathers for buying Alaska, I would not want Russia for a neighbor.

We all have our bias and it's near impossible to have it not affect our thoughts.

I believe Russia will remain in Georgia till Russia can be leveraged to leave.

If B H Obama is elected in November, there will be no WWIII, he will appease till the moon turns to cheese and his administration will be a US version of France.

[TomsSVX]

long & the short of it all, no one in office has the balls to make any moves. NONE of our candiates for the US presidency have any balls to make any moves... Seriously, I can has FDR back??

Tom

[dromano]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

long & the short of it all, no one in office has the balls to make any moves. NONE of our candiates for the US presidency have any balls to make any moves... Seriously, I can has FDR back??

Tom

Tom, does Joe Biden (from Scranton) being picked by BHO influence who you will vote for?

[Stilor]

Associated Press as of 1 AM EDST reported that Russian troops and APC's remain in Poti & Senaki base. Aprox 1400 Russian troops are creating buffer zones in Georgia to protect S Ossetia & Abkhazia, this is in violation of the peace agreement.

Russian military spokesperson admitted that, but claimed they have reliable evidence that Georgia plans further attacks from these bases. After all, Georgia started the fight, so it is quite natural to suspect malice.

USA prisons are not populated with political dissidents who are not criminals.

Neither are Russian ones. Remember, we are not talking about Soviet Union of mid 20th century?

What is the political affiliation of the opposition to the current Georgian leader ship?

The largest parties involved were Georgian Republican party, rightist "Georgia Path" party. They are not pro-Russian if that's what you're asking about.

I saw on FNC zodiac type patrol boats (25'-30' long) being hauled off on Russian flat bed trailers at Poti. The ships destroyed by Russia were too large to haul off so were destroyed and sunk in port.

I didn't see that. I admit it may be true, or yet again - it might be a staged performance by Georgian government. Do you know WHERE did they haul them to? Perhaps, to another Georgian port?

Just ask yourself why would Russia need these boats and where does it station them? Ukraine won't allow them to be stationed in Sevastopol base in the Black Sea and hauling them through the whole Russia to far east or far north just doesn't make sense.

Will Russia ever pay for their destruction to Georgia's infrastructure? Will Russia provide aid to the 150000+ displaced homeless Georgians?

Hopefully not. Will Georgia pay for destruction of Ossetian infrastructure? Will it provide aid to 35000+ Ossetian refugees? Will it attempt to somehow compensate the families of those 2000+ people they killed? Did US restore Iraqi infrastructure they destroyed in 1991?

It's simple: who starts the fight, loses the right to complain for the bruises.

USA has made several flights to Georgia with relief supplies and several US Navy ships are headed to Georgia with relief supplies.

And Russia sends aid to S.Ossetia, which is after all, a victim, not the aggressor. By the way, why are Navy ships needed to haul emergency supplies? A container ship can deliver much more cargo, you know

We must thank our fore fathers for buying Alaska, I would not want Russia for a neighbor.

Just the opposite: if they hadn't, you wouldn't have had Russia as a neighbor - Canada would have had. And since they did, now US borders with Russia (at the Bering straight).

We all have our bias and it's near impossible to have it not affect our thoughts.

You're right. To mirror the situation, just imagine a hypothetical scenario: Cuba spends several years heavily militarizing and then attacks Puerto-Rico (which is technically not a US state, but all of the population is US citizens). About 100.000 US citizens are killed in the attack (3% of the whole population). Would US intervene? Would US stop at Cuban border? Would US destroy the infrastructure in Cuba? Would US pay for the damage?

Now substitute Cuba with Georgia, Puerto-Rico with S.Ossetia, US with Russia.

I believe Russia will remain in Georgia till Russia can be leveraged to leave.

I hope not. However, I hope the Russian military is competent enough to ensure Georgia does not repeat its attempts to exert the force on Russian citizens.

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by dromano

Tom, does Joe Biden (from Scranton) being picked by BHO influence who you will vote for?

Honestly, no. Until someone can show me that they will take control of our country with firm policies that don't leave us wide open... My vote may go unattended. I am far too tired of soft decision making and a lack of using the "muscle" this country was built on. There comes a time to shut out the liberal opinions and get what needs to be done, done.

Tom

[dromano]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Honestly, no. Until someone can show me that they will take control of our country with firm policies that don't leave us wide open... My vote may go unattended. I am far too tired of soft decision making and a lack of using the "muscle" this country was built on. There comes a time to shut out the liberal opinions and get what needs to be done, done.

Tom

My view is the polarization in Congress is causing the bulk of the grief. House and Senate members of all political parties are way more interested in political upmanship than doing the peoples business. Pelosi, shutting down the House for five weeks without taking action on drilling is the best example I can think of. Have you noticed how each and every Democrat states 'no oil for 10 years if drilling starts today'. Yet oil people say as soon as 18 months.

[dromano]

Stilor,

Those patrol boats are most likely in Abkhazia where they can be used in the Black Sea.

Were there no gulags after the 50's?

Is there anything S Ossetians were doing that provoked Georgia to attack? I read at RussiaToday.com that S Osettia has extreme criminal activity, sort of sounds like the old days in Chechnya before Russia moved in to protect ethnic Russians. If Russia handed S Ossetians Russian passports is that license to storm into a conflict in a sovereign country? I am not ready to be convinced that Georgia's leader is a monster.

What was the relationship like between Georgia & S Ossetia during Soviet rule?

Russia is saying they are where they are in Georgia to squash any future attacks. I think it's to control the pipe line thru Georgia.

I think we use Navy war ships to deliver humanitarian aid because the Navy is the best equipped to perform the mission. Also, the Navy's war ships have the best chance of making the round trip without event.

I consider every country on North America a neighbor whether we share borders or not.

Would the US pay for military damage to Cuba? Ever hear of the Berlin Air Lift? Have you noticed US military in Europe providing defense to allow WWII damage to be rebuilt? We would not pay to rebuild Cuba, we would rebuild Cuba, it's called capitalism, you know. Did you notice Japan doing their rebuilding while US troops provided national security?

[dromano]

I have been reading news sites that originate in Russia or the articles are written by Russians.

Here is an opinion that sounds more like the Russia I have grown to love. The Russians handed out Russian passports to S Ossetians so that if Georgia used force against S Ossetians, Russia would simply protect it's citizens. The author refered to Russia's approach as 'accelerating the process of local conflicts' & 'provide justification for territorial annexation' & 'create a pretext for Russian involvement'. Looks like this is what happened in my view.

I think Russian political leaders will receive heavy world criticism as the light shines brighter on the events of the past 2 weeks. They will stone wall the situation and do all they can behind the scenes to have Saakashvili thrown out of office.

[NikFu S.]

Originally Posted by dromano

I consider every country on North America a neighbor whether we share borders or not.

I think the original point here was Russia is a closer neighbor with Alaska as a state or US territory, but you made it sound as if they are farther away because of it. Farther away from you and the lower 48, sure, but what difference does it really make. Nobody would ever send a ground invasion to the US, not even Russia and not even if they were based in Alaska.

[dromano]

Originally Posted by NikFu S.

I think the original point here was Russia is a closer neighbor with Alaska as a state or US territory, but you made it sound as if they are farther away because of it. Farther away from you and the lower 48, sure, but what difference does it really make. Nobody would ever send a ground invasion to the US, not even Russia and not even if they were based in Alaska.

There's way too much ice & cold for Russia to do hanky panky on western Alutians. Russian has enough to deal with in their own land mass!!

[Stilor]

Those patrol boats are most likely in Abkhazia where they can be used in the Black Sea.

Again, I can not say anything about that - I just don't know.

Were there no gulags after the 50's?

Basically, no, they were disbanded during early Khruschev's rule - that is, somewhat around 1960 or so. Khruschev also started the process of "rehabilitation", when many political inmates were restored in their rights.

Is there anything S Ossetians were doing that provoked Georgia to attack? I read at RussiaToday.com that S Osettia has extreme criminal activity, sort of sounds like the old days in Chechnya before Russia moved in to protect ethnic Russians.

I have not been in S Ossetia, so I cannot speak from my own evidence. I have been in Abkhazia in 2003; a friend of mine was there in 2007. Neither of us noticed any "extreme criminal activity". Yet, Georgia has the same claims on criminal activity for Abkhazia as well.

I admit that the criminal situation in S Ossetia may be worse - that stemming from the fact that S Ossetia is poorer region (Abkhazia has several gorgeous resort places and thus benefits from tourism)

If Russia handed S Ossetians Russian passports is that license to storm into a conflict in a sovereign country? I am not ready to be convinced that Georgia's leader is a monster.

What was the relationship like between Georgia & S Ossetia during Soviet rule?

Let me explain the legal grounds for handing Russian passports to people in Abkhazia and S Ossetia. The Belovezh agreement (which dissolved the Soviet Union) allowed all Soviet citizens to choose the citizenship, regardless of the place they lived. That was fair, otherwise many people would have been caught in countries to which they do not belong This agreement was signed in December 1991 by all former Soviet Union states, including Georgia.

During the Soviet Union days, there was a concept of "autonomous republics". That means the territory was considered a part of one of the 15 Soviet republics, but they were mostly self-governing and reported to the federal center. There were three such regions in Georgia: Abkhazia, Adjaria and South Ossetia. The second one, Adjaria, did not try to break away from Georgia (even though Adjarian president was more pro-Russian than Georgian government). Thus, Adjaria experienced some form of autonomy until it has been subdued by Georgia in 2004.

First thing Georgia did in early 1992 right after gaining its sovereignty was to abolish the self-governing status of Abkhazia and S. Ossetia. That caused civil unrest, which Georgia tried to quell using its military. Naturally, people in Abkhazia and S Ossetia did not acquire Georgian citizenship. As I mentioned above, the Belovezh agreement allowed them to choose citizenship of any other country from former Soviet Union, and most of these people chose Russian citizenship.

An interesting fact is that Abkhazia even joined Soviet Union separately from Georgia (and earlier than Georgia). They use this as an argument for their sovereignty from Georgia - since Abkhazia joined Soviet Union as a separate republic, Abkhazia insists that it should have become a separate country after Soviet Union dissolution.

Russia is saying they are where they are in Georgia to squash any future attacks. I think it's to control the pipe line thru Georgia.

That was the original Georgian tune. US Department of State initially supported that version, but no longer supports it. Matthew Bryza has already stated that if Russians wanted to stop/disrupt the pipe, they had all the opportunities to do so. And the oil transfer stopped a couple of weeks before the conflict, due to some terror act in Turkey, not due to the conflict.

I think we use Navy war ships to deliver humanitarian aid because the Navy is the best equipped to perform the mission. Also, the Navy's war ships have the best chance of making the round trip without event.

We would not pay to rebuild Cuba, we would rebuild Cuba, it's called capitalism, you know.

I noticed you evaded the question if a massacre of US citizens would be a license for such invasion. But judging by the fact you talked about rebuilding, I assume the answer is "yes". So that's the answer to your question of "If Russia handed S Ossetians Russian passports is that license to storm into a conflict in a sovereign country?".

I agree with your point on rebuilding, with only a small correction: US would rebuild Cuba after taking over Havana, deposing the government and installing a new, pro-American one.

[demonsvx]

Now would be a ideal time for China to invade some of its neighbors Oh by the way has anyone kept up with Irans nuclear production or Pakistans situation? Small problems ususally lead to bigger ones. I wouldnt be surprised if a US warship was "accidently" attacked while in port. Hmm these look like some heavily armed "peacekeepers"

[Sov13t]

That is a picture of some victory day parade

Check your sources...