Chike's/ Tom's N/A performance thread

[black beast]

O, ok. Thought you meant this was not a good staring place.. sorry.

[longassname]

First let me say I am sorry I have to make this post. I would have thought others would have more gently put an end to this nonesense rather than leaving it to me to defend myself.

There are a handful of people on the forum who have come to specialize in trying to bring me grief and would like to create a sense that everything I have ever done is worthless; I don't, however, think that the statements of these few vocal members accurately portray the general sense of the SVX community.

This idea that there is 65 hp to be gained from switching to standalone engine management is absurd. Neither my tunes nore the engineers at Subaru and JECS are that "laughable." Yes, if you put an EG33 in another chasis with far less drive line loss you will see higher wheel hp numbers. That goes without saying and has nothing to do with the engine management.

Standalone engine management for the EG33 has been available for years. If anybody wants it call pantera. People don't because stage 2 works well for them.

I still give good service as well. The camshafts which I developed are proving to work very well--providing a wide power band, torque peak above 6000 rpms, and still idling well at a very respectable 800 rpms. Are they best used with new software with an adjusted idle? Yes Did Tom go out of his way to get the camshafts before I did? Yes How can someone claim I am giving bad service because I didn't come up with updated software to smooth the idle with the camshafts before I've had the opportunity to run them myself and write the software. The whole development of the camshafts was well documented in the camshaft thread and he knew he was getting them ahead of me and went out of his way to do so. The same applies with the rest of the components he used in his engine build and the supercharger system.

When complaining about his engine management pulling ignition timing Tom doesn't mention things like his engine has rod knock which causes ignition timing to be pulled like no other. He doesn't mention things like he actually broke arp2000 rod bolts when building his engine. He doesn't mention things like the comments he made about how the piston rings fit before filing indicate that the piston fitment in his engine is terrible.

Tom may be great at dissassembling and reassembling an SVX and have lots of SVX specific knowledge but he does not know how to build an engine or tune an engine management system and I'm not going to make any appologies for relying on my own analytical processes instead of his opinion. I understand that he hoped he could be the first to throw an engine together and make huge power numbers but to throw a hissy fit because that didn't work out is uncalled for.

The engine components I have developed are proving extremely effective. The transmission build I came up with has proven very effective. Soon I will have tcu software and new engine management software to pull these two things together and then we will have very fast NA SVXii. It annoys me to no end to hear a negative nancy trying to pull things apart when we are so close to pulling them together.

[YourConfused]

Damn, nice self defense.
Is there a particular time frame for this new software for the ecu and tcu?
Any more specifics?
Oops, just realized I'm not suppose to chit chat in this thread.
Sorry Blackbeast.

[black beast]

LOL it cool, Lan, Tom, lets not turn this into a pissing contest... I respect both of your views. Tom you have some great stuff, lan you do too. Lets leave it at that. YC, I dont mind, I take it as more a when can we expect a new upgrade rather then a chit chat.

Black Beast

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by longassname

First let me say I am sorry I have to make this post. I would have thought others would have more gently put an end to this nonesense rather than leaving it to me to defend myself.

There are a handful of people on the forum who have come to specialize in trying to bring me grief and would like to create a sense that everything I have ever done is worthless; I don't, however, think that the statements of these few vocal members accurately portray the general sense of the SVX community.

Not trying to bring you grief, trying to get you to listen.

Originally Posted by longassname

This idea that there is 65 hp to be gained from switching to standalone engine management is absurd. Neither my tunes nore the engineers at Subaru and JECS are that "laughable." Yes, if you put an EG33 in another chasis with far less drive line loss you will see higher wheel hp numbers. That goes without saying and has nothing to do with the engine management.

The idea of DYNO tuning anything you have done this far is laughable. Explain to me then why oh why did a standalone make 210 wheel horsepower through a 5 speed transmission using all stock components?? Yet you fail to increase over stock more than a couple wheel without much improvement across the board. What does the different chasis have to do with anything? Its still the same motor, just someone actually took the time and expense to put it on a dyno and tune the engine properly.

Originally Posted by longassname

Standalone engine management for the EG33 has been available for years. If anybody wants it call pantera. People don't because stage 2 works well for them.

Stage 2 does exactly as I stated above. it allows people to use forced induction with limitation of the stock MAF and injectors, beyond that I would LOVE to see something using the stage 2 NOT heavily benefit from a real tune

Originally Posted by longassname

I still give good service as well. The camshafts which I developed are proving to work very well--providing a wide power band, torque peak above 6000 rpms, and still idling well at a very respectable 800 rpms. Are they best used with new software with an adjusted idle? Yes Did Tom go out of his way to get the camshafts before I did? Yes How can someone claim I am giving bad service because I didn't come up with updated software to smooth the idle with the camshafts before I've had the opportunity to run them myself and write the software. The whole development of the camshafts was well documented in the camshaft thread and he knew he was getting them ahead of me and went out of his way to do so. The same applies with the rest of the components he used in his engine build and the supercharger system.

When complaining about his engine management pulling ignition timing Tom doesn't mention things like his engine has rod knock which causes ignition timing to be pulled like no other. He doesn't mention things like he actually broke arp2000 rod bolts when building his engine. He doesn't mention things like the comments he made about how the piston rings fit before filing indicate that the piston fitment in his engine is terrible.

Ok lets put it all out.
#1 I bought all of your components at full cost
#2 I have been your test dummy for years running *new* software

What do I have to show for it? Well, smoked a piston or 5 in my stock motor trying your software. You offered $350 to pay for a new engine. So I replaced the engine that was running on the 12psi pulley you guaranteed me would work and started using the 9psi pulley you had to send me. Which did work well. Finally i got around to getting a motor together. This one being Sicksubie's of course. I followed the exact procedures laid out by CP for the piston ring fitment. Instead of blowing off their guideline of .5" of ring depth to set the gap like you did, I used it. I used their exact formula to find the suitable gap. Once I got the bottom end assembled and the heads installed, I found your error in designing the cams. Don't even try and tell me the cam grinders took too much off the base circle, you just didn't think about it. SO I had to eat two sets of intake cams and pay overnight shipping to get them back to the grinders. I also had to eat the shipping costs to get all 4 sets back down to you. Both of my engines were assembled by the book, and both would be running very well today if it was not for the following.

Since day one when I finally got my wideband installed I have given you more information about how LEAN the car runs. You once again blame it on an erroneous diagnosis of an intake leak. After going over all of my seals time and time again (yes even replaced all of the injector o-rings). This system still has issues. IF there were an intake leak, it must be from your manifold or your TB adapter. Yet you still refuse the fact that there is something wrong. The fact that my built motor ran great the day I fired it up and it ran great through its break-in period was no surprise. The fact that when I went to the track the first time and the motor was detonating like hell may have been the reason that since then my rod knock has gotten worse and worse as my rod bearings probably look like a wheel that hit a curb doing 80. But have I blamed that on you?? NO. I have asked for you to add more fuel to software for a long time as running into the 13's probably isn't a good idea when the blower is running too hot in the 1st place.

Originally Posted by longassname

Tom may be great at dissassembling and reassembling an SVX and have lots of SVX specific knowledge but he does not know how to build an engine or tune an engine management system and I'm not going to make any appologies for relying on my own analytical processes instead of his opinion. I understand that he hoped he could be the first to throw an engine together and make huge power numbers but to throw a hissy fit because that didn't work out is uncalled for.

Throwing a hissy fit?? I shelled out over $10k into your company for what?? an astonishing supercharger that could never come close to meeting the promised which were made to me? For software that I have begged on my hands and knees to be changed that never happened? How about asking you nicely that if you knew anyone who desired a stage III to send them my way so I could unload it?? Nothing you have done for me has resulted in anything positive. Maybe if you started listening instead of living in denial we might not be in this situation. I already have plans to tear down the engine again and to have new bearings installed and the rods checked out to make sure they were not damaged as well. So if you want to solve this issue that you seem to have been hiding from for so long, you can work with me to resolve it, or continue to ignore it. Your choice.

Originally Posted by longassname

The engine components I have developed are proving extremely effective. The transmission build I came up with has proven very effective. Soon I will have tcu software and new engine management software to pull these two things together and then we will have very fast NA SVXii. It annoys me to no end to hear a negative nancy trying to pull things apart when we are so close to pulling them together.

Not trying to pull things apart, and I agree that the components available now are of great quality and DO work. Its the lack of spending the $ to dyno tune anything right now that astonishes me that anyone listens. Your plans all work great in theory but you will never know until you test them. Do not rely on your customers to give you dyno plots liek you did to Mike and I. Even then you could see the lean streak in both of our cars with the stage 3 yet nothing was done about it. Do NOT try and patronize and belittle me, I have done nothing but try and support what you have been doing, but when I am ignored and talked down to when I have serious concerns about your products, there is only so much bull**** I will listen to before it gets ugly.

Tom

[black beast]

and a pissing contest....

[Speedklix]

didn't read much of this
...all I know is my car was pretty fun, but bogged once in a while, stalled all the time, and hesitated off the line.

Stage2v7 made that all go away, leaving me with only a fantastic, strong, smooth ride.

ohh yeah and STi filter was good, went to HKS, want to go back to STi

[black beast]

Ya, I went to the 5spd, and without the chip I would have went back to the auto. It stalled all the time and was a pita to drive, the chip made the MT workable.

[YourConfused]

Should LAN and YT have a separate thread for this?
I'm not in favor of a pissing match, but (BUT) i want all the details out there. I love info and truth.
I have LAN's 2v7f and the 4eat btw. Still awaiting a new ecu to tell all what I think of the stuff.
I have the intake spacers w/ t.b. bypass and will say that they do work. i'm sure I have other things that fit in here, but just gotta calculate it all.

[Mission]

Not to get off topic but... I know both TomsSVX and Longassname have contributed alot to the progress of SVX development

We now return to the regularly scheduled programming.

Is your ECU Tune Stage 2.7F flex fuel version? If so do you run the FF(ethanol)?

[alltrac]

It reminds me of the OBDII tune he was suppose to work on. I spent $100 on a spare 96 ECU for him to sit on it for a couple of months just to send it back to me with nothing done. The BS he gave me was chip tuners are watching what he is doing and he is going to stay away from OBDII. I guess Mike thought he was reinventing the wheel. He got me so spooked out I broke out the tin foil hat and duct tape all the cracks in the house.

After three price increases and several variations of the supercharger I'm not surprised things have ended up this way. You can't trust them Floridians.

[longassname]

The fact that you don't know what piston fitment is speaks for itself so I won't go into that. I already went over the fact that you knew I hadn't built my own engine yet and made software to match. I didn't force you or encourage you to build your engine before mine. I'll have the new software done when I have it done; my schedule is not set by you wanting everything yesterday. You bought the parts when you did because that's when they were available--that didn't mean you had to put them together--especially before you knew how to do so correctly. Your bearings went bad because you didn't follow my instructions for measuring your bearings and machining your crank; you also used cheap chineese bearings.

As for my suspicions of leaking fuel injectors maybe that's because you ripped the o-rings when you installed sicksubies fuel injectors so bad that despite your swearing up and down he didn't have any fuel leaks he called me a week later to crossmatch nissan's he could get o-rings from off the shelf because he had fuel puddling on the top of his engine and was afraid of an engine fire. I also had to give him the part number for an idler because you had neglected to tension his belt or tighten down his idlers so he not only went to the dyno with a slipping belt but actually had an idler fall off. As for my confidence that the software doesn't run lean maybe that's because it didn't run lean on my car and it doesn't run lean on sicksubies car now that he's had his hands on it long enough to correct your mistakes.

I can point out your mistakes and misleadings all day. I DO know how to build engines and tune engine management systems so it's very easy. Your lack of knowledge on the subject is extreemly tansparent. That's why I aggreed to build jonathans engine instead of leave him in your incomptent hands. And the truth is if you really wanted me to have the opportunity to dyno tune software for this specific engine and supercharger set up you would be jumping for joy over that instead of seeing it as dollars out of your pocket and going on the war path.

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Not trying to bring you grief, trying to get you to listen.



The idea of DYNO tuning anything you have done this far is laughable. Explain to me then why oh why did a standalone make 210 wheel horsepower through a 5 speed transmission using all stock components?? Yet you fail to increase over stock more than a couple wheel without much improvement across the board. What does the different chasis have to do with anything? Its still the same motor, just someone actually took the time and expense to put it on a dyno and tune the engine properly.



Stage 2 does exactly as I stated above. it allows people to use forced induction with limitation of the stock MAF and injectors, beyond that I would LOVE to see something using the stage 2 NOT heavily benefit from a real tune



Ok lets put it all out.
#1 I bought all of your components at full cost
#2 I have been your test dummy for years running *new* software

What do I have to show for it? Well, smoked a piston or 5 in my stock motor trying your software. You offered $350 to pay for a new engine. So I replaced the engine that was running on the 12psi pulley you guaranteed me would work and started using the 9psi pulley you had to send me. Which did work well. Finally i got around to getting a motor together. This one being Sicksubie's of course. I followed the exact procedures laid out by CP for the piston ring fitment. Instead of blowing off their guideline of .5" of ring depth to set the gap like you did, I used it. I used their exact formula to find the suitable gap. Once I got the bottom end assembled and the heads installed, I found your error in designing the cams. Don't even try and tell me the cam grinders took too much off the base circle, you just didn't think about it. SO I had to eat two sets of intake cams and pay overnight shipping to get them back to the grinders. I also had to eat the shipping costs to get all 4 sets back down to you. Both of my engines were assembled by the book, and both would be running very well today if it was not for the following.

Since day one when I finally got my wideband installed I have given you more information about how LEAN the car runs. You once again blame it on an erroneous diagnosis of an intake leak. After going over all of my seals time and time again (yes even replaced all of the injector o-rings). This system still has issues. IF there were an intake leak, it must be from your manifold or your TB adapter. Yet you still refuse the fact that there is something wrong. The fact that my built motor ran great the day I fired it up and it ran great through its break-in period was no surprise. The fact that when I went to the track the first time and the motor was detonating like hell may have been the reason that since then my rod knock has gotten worse and worse as my rod bearings probably look like a wheel that hit a curb doing 80. But have I blamed that on you?? NO. I have asked for you to add more fuel to software for a long time as running into the 13's probably isn't a good idea when the blower is running too hot in the 1st place.



Throwing a hissy fit?? I shelled out over $10k into your company for what?? an astonishing supercharger that could never come close to meeting the promised which were made to me? For software that I have begged on my hands and knees to be changed that never happened? How about asking you nicely that if you knew anyone who desired a stage III to send them my way so I could unload it?? Nothing you have done for me has resulted in anything positive. Maybe if you started listening instead of living in denial we might not be in this situation. I already have plans to tear down the engine again and to have new bearings installed and the rods checked out to make sure they were not damaged as well. So if you want to solve this issue that you seem to have been hiding from for so long, you can work with me to resolve it, or continue to ignore it. Your choice.



Not trying to pull things apart, and I agree that the components available now are of great quality and DO work. Its the lack of spending the $ to dyno tune anything right now that astonishes me that anyone listens. Your plans all work great in theory but you will never know until you test them. Do not rely on your customers to give you dyno plots liek you did to Mike and I. Even then you could see the lean streak in both of our cars with the stage 3 yet nothing was done about it. Do NOT try and patronize and belittle me, I have done nothing but try and support what you have been doing, but when I am ignored and talked down to when I have serious concerns about your products, there is only so much bull**** I will listen to before it gets ugly.

Tom

[Tim]

I dont feel this thread should attack any one in particular because it's not going to help anybody and it's just going to start a flame war.

The svx platform is still not fully understood, but I'm glad we have people motivated to making new developments for us.

[sicksubie]

I do not think that is a fair statement... My stage 3 idles very well at 800rpms. and mated with the 6spd is a BLAST. Dyno numbers coming very soon as well as 1/4 times.

[longassname]

I'd also like to point out that sicksubie emphatically states that his car idles very well at 800 rpms, has a dead on afr, runs very well, and pulls scarily hard all the way up to 7500 and would keep going if he wasn't scared to do so.

And..I would encourage him to take it to higher rpms except I'm sure he'll blow a rod bearing since Tom also didn't set up his crank correctly and also used cheap chineese bearings in his motor...despite chargine him more than a professional engine building would for his engine build.