Schroth 4 point harnesses

[SVXRide]

Originally Posted by sicksubie

pics dont work.....

and what do you mean "extend forward"?

Bobby,
Pics should work now. By "extend forward", I mean we fabricated a triangular set up that allowed us to pick up the car seat anchor bolt hole and one of the bolts associated with the driver's side rear strut housing and locate the attachment point for the shoulder harnesses roughly 8 inches forward.
-Bill

[sicksubie]

Im looking over the directions I have here and do not see anything against my set up. The person who bought it before me had it set up this way too. Running the image of a body in an accident in my mind I dont see how my set up could result in anything worse of an injury than your set up.

[SVXRide]

Originally Posted by sicksubie

Im looking over the directions I have here and do not see anything against my set up. The person who bought it before me had it set up this way too. Running the image of a body in an accident in my mind I dont see how my set up could result in anything worse of an injury than your set up.

Bobby,
You can go to the Schroth site and download their installation .pdf file (http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/Co...structions.pdf ). It actually has pictures of crash dummies in their harnesses so you can see what happens. Bottom line is that, in the event of an accident, your body will keep going forward and the loading of the shoulder harnesses will actually be down on your shoulders instead of being equally distributed across your chest. This is why Schroth says not to vary by more than 20 degrees off of horizontal with the attachment of the shoulder harnesses. Check with Dan (ShotgunSlade), as I doubt that Lime Rock, Summit Point, or any of the other tracks will allow you to run with the belts anchored the way you've got them.
-Bill
p.s. then again, you also need to have the same type of belts for the passenger as you do for the driver in order to run at Summit, etc. which is why I still need to get a belt for the passenger

[sicksubie]

So how the guy had them mounted in the Legacy was dangerous..... Yeah I realized that today that I will need a pass side belt too because I will have a instructor until I am cleared to ride solo.... Maybe a harness bar is in order for me now.

[sicksubie]

BTW... Thanks for the input. It would really stink to go to Lime Rock just to be turned away because of this.

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by SVXRide

Bobby,
You can go to the Schroth site and download their installation .pdf file (http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/Co...structions.pdf ). It actually has pictures of crash dummies in their harnesses so you can see what happens. Bottom line is that, in the event of an accident, your body will keep going forward and the loading of the shoulder harnesses will actually be down on your shoulders instead of being equally distributed across your chest. This is why Schroth says not to vary by more than 20 degrees off of horizontal with the attachment of the shoulder harnesses. Check with Dan (ShotgunSlade), as I doubt that Lime Rock, Summit Point, or any of the other tracks will allow you to run with the belts anchored the way you've got them.
-Bill
p.s. then again, you also need to have the same type of belts for the passenger as you do for the driver in order to run at Summit, etc. which is why I still need to get a belt for the passenger

Now if Bill would only pick up his other racing seat.... and harness.... and engine.....

Tomn

[LetItSnow]

Everybody beat me to the details, including a picture that uses the same mount point my belt does:


Flip the back seat up, and p-chow! Nobody even knows it's there.

I don't know that I'd trust the baby seat strap mounts - I'm heavier than the average baby. Stock seatbelt bolts are good!

[crazyhorse]

I'm gonna have a go at a theoretical install.
If one welds a brace under the "package shelf", could this seve as the mounting point for a racing harness? IE: a 2x4 square tube welded in from strut tower to strut tower. This would do double duty, to reinforce the towers, and with bungs welded in for seatbelt anchors, the rear mounts for the shoulder straps. This should keep you within 20deg of horizontal as well. When the harness isn't attached, simply put appropriately colored plastic plugs in the holes.

[Hocrest]

Originally Posted by crazyhorse

I'm gonna have a go at a theoretical install.
If one welds a brace under the "package shelf", could this seve as the mounting point for a racing harness? IE: a 2x4 square tube welded in from strut tower to strut tower. This would do double duty, to reinforce the towers, and with bungs welded in for seatbelt anchors, the rear mounts for the shoulder straps. This should keep you within 20deg of horizontal as well. When the harness isn't attached, simply put appropriately colored plastic plugs in the holes.

Yeah, that would work as well. The problem with this idea and the others like Bill's is that they allow for a good deal of belt stretch. That extra three feet of belt to get to the rear shelf gives that much more belt to stretch and allow your body to move away from the seat on impact.

Like Bobby mentioned, in an AX setting where chance of a high speed impact is very low, and the major goal is positioning, this isn't a major concern. But in an AX setting I would much rather deal with belt stretch than spinal compression.

This is one of those situations where making something "a little safer" can be more dangerous. Harnesses, race seats, helmets and cages are all good things, but using only one or two of the four can be worse than the stock system.

A helmet is great at protecting your noggin, but in a major impact increases the forces pulling on your body and neck.

A cage is able to maintain a safe cell inside of your car, but without a helmet, harness and seat the cage gives a lot more hard surfaces to cause a head injury and other impact injuries.

A harness and seat will keep you in position, but without a cage, they could keep your head where the roof is going to end up. Also if the harness is tight enough to do it's safety job, it will not be comfortable for daily driving and reaching some switches on the dash will be almost impossible.

And the fact that to properly get into the harness takes a lot more effort than fastening a stock seat belt. I know Bobby plans to just use the harness for AX and use the stock belts the rest of the time, but I've seen street cars with the stock belts removed when the harnesses were installed.

Again, for autocrossing, you should be more concerned with a wheel flying off of another car and hitting you. But these are the reasons that you shouldn't add a harness or cage on a daily driver without thinking out all aspects of a crash.

And if you plan to add ANY modifications to a car that you plan to compete with or participate in any track events it is VITAL to check the rules of the events you plan to participate in. Tracks and organizers have different rules as do the sanctioning bodies.

There is something made that straps you into your stock seat. It's not made as a safety device, but meant to be used in addition to your stock seatbelts to hold you in position when AXing. I forget the name off hand??? *lock??

[crazyhorse]

Dave, what you're thinking of is the CG-lock. It locks the belts in place on the latch slider, so they can't move.
http://www.cg-lock.com/

[LetItSnow]

Another thing to consider is that, in some ride-along instructor circumstances, they will demand that the driver and passenger have identical restraints.

Re: CG Lock... I only wish there was a way that it would work with ol' motorbelts.

[Hocrest]

Originally Posted by crazyhorse

Dave, what you're thinking of is the CG-lock. It locks the belts in place on the latch slider, so they can't move.
http://www.cg-lock.com/

Yeah, that's one. And that is the name I was thinking of, but I've also seen big straps that hold you too the seat. I doubt they would be allowed in any track days.

[SVXRide]

Originally Posted by Hocrest

Yeah, that's one. And that is the name I was thinking of, but I've also seen big straps that hold you too the seat. I doubt they would be allowed in any track days.

Dave,
Good comments in your earlier post! Perfect world would definitely be a cage with a shoulder belt attachment point ~6-12 inches behind the seat (speaking of which, when are you guys going to post up some pics of the RaceCar's cage?). The CG lock is a great piece of equipment, as long as you've got manual stock belts. It is worthless with our motorized belts
-Bill

[SVXRide]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Now if Bill would only pick up his other racing seat.... and harness.... and engine.....

Tomn

Soon, my friend, soon!
-Bill

[Speedklix]

Originally Posted by LetItSnow

Everybody beat me to the details, including a picture that uses the same mount point my belt does:


Flip the back seat up, and p-chow! Nobody even knows it's there.

umm, where is your turnk lid

Originally Posted by LetItSnow

I don't know that I'd trust the baby seat strap mounts - I'm heavier than the average baby.

....yeah, those Schroth instructions actually say not to do that either