Another Hyundai knocking on Subaru's door

i kinda like it :-\

[Weebitob]

Originally Posted by SVXtra

Because the Accent really needs more h.p. to stay competitive. What is the h.p. rating on the 05 Accent GT 110? The Corolla has a 170 hp option. The Cobalt a 210 hp option and the new Civic will have a 190 hp option. Even the Neon has a 230 hp option. Besides turbo charging and inter-cooling is a relatively easy,reliable and inexpensive way to greatly increase a given h.p. Especially from the standpoint having the turbo system designed especially for a certain model of car. But designing, manufacturing, installing and providing a long term warranty on an AWD system for what is basically a sporty economy car is far more expensive and problematic. In my opinion. And you guy's all know what that is worth...

If thats what Hyundai has to put up with to stay competitive, they'de do it

Didn't you read what I said before, Hyundai already has a AWD tranny one that manages to put down 219 torque from a 200hp engine which lugs a SUV that weighs 4000lb on a daily basis or a 300hp WRC rally car.

So I would say their AWD system is competent enough to withstand the abuse while also maintaining a relatively low cost. Hyundai recently bought some Autralian company's (I forgot the name of) AWD system, which like Subaru's VTD doesn't have as many gears, but shares more in common with Nissan's ATESSA system except being fwd biased. So it should be pretty good.

Originally Posted by MidgeX

i kinda like it :-\

Nothing wrong with that, unless you attend to be a die hard Scooby fan.

Look on the bright side, its better than liking a Mitsubishi.

Didn't you read what I said before, Hyundai already has a AWD tranny one that manages to put down 219 torque from a 200hp engine which lugs a SUV that weighs 4000lb on a daily basis or a 300hp WRC rally car.

Yes, I read your comments earlier. And, I think, I gave numerous reasons why I disagree with the premise that the SR will be introduced at Frankfurt with an AWD option..


You know if Hyundai is really smart they will offer a 120 h.p. turbo charged direct injection diesel engine option for the SR. I will be willing to bet they will be offering such an engine in Europe. With the new low sulfur diesel fuel being mandated for us in 07 and the approximately 50 mpg a diesel SR should get not to mention the exceptional stying of the SR they would sell like hot cakes.

[Weebitob]

Originally Posted by SVXtra

Yes, I read your comments earlier. And, I think, I gave numerous reasons why I disagree with the premise that the SR will be introduced at Frankfurt with an AWD option..


You know if Hyundai is really smart they will offer a 120 h.p. turbo charged direct injection diesel engine option for the SR. I will be willing to bet they will be offering such an engine in Europe. And with the new low sulfur diesel fuel being mandated for us in 07 not to mention the 50 mpg the diesel car should get and the exceptionally stying of the RS they would sell like hot cakes.

Even though Hyundai does a great job with ship diesels I doubt that Hyundai currently has an automotive turbo diesel that can compete with what Honda and VW are offering. That is unless they all of a sudden offer variable valve timing and/or a twincharger for their automobile diesels.

But even if it does come in a turbo diesel, wouldn't it be even better if mated to an AWD system? Also what is wrong with the possibility of Hyundai offering it in multible trims?

Hyundai is already offering 3 different trims along with 2 engine choices for the Sonata, Tuscon and Sante Fe.

If you indeed completely read everything I posted in this topic before, you would understand my reasoning which I am going to bring up as a question to you below.

So tell me, according to your logic why would Hyundai display a flagship hot hatch concept but with an automatic? Their manual transmission must be plenty able to put up with a turbocharged 4 if it can be in a torquei V6.

So tell me, according to your logic why would Hyundai display a flagship hot hatch concept but with an automatic?

Does this new automatic not have a manual shift mode if the driver so desires? And besides designing a drivetrain to accept two completely different transmission options/combinations is very costly. And would slow down research and development of the car. While adding a great deal of additional expense to Hyundai on the supply side of the equation. Remember this is supposed to be a value based vehicle.

[Weebitob]

Originally Posted by SVXtra

Does this new automatic not have a manual shift mode if the driver so desires? And besides designing a drive train to accept two completely different transmissions options is very costly. And would slow down research and development.And add a great deal of additional expense to Hyundai.

As I stated before the Hyundai Sante Fe and Tucson already has an AWD 5 speed automatic with a manumatic shift mode.

[Weebitob]

Regardless, most people in the hot hatch market still feel that an automatic is an automatic even with triptonic shifters. Most automitive companies also know this, so I bet you Hyundai coming prepared with an explanation.

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally Posted by Weebitob

It seems to me that the 5 speed automic on this concept is an indication that this prototype is equipped with Hyundai's new electronic AWD system. And because of this as well as the turbo not to mention all the sporty cues says that this is Hyundai homongenization of their WRC car.

"Hyundai's WRC car." That's funny. Hyundai gave up on the WRC last season - there is no WRC car to 'homogenize.'

You've got the term and the concept wrong anyway. The correct word is homologate, and it has to go the other way. They have to use a road car that sells in a certain quantity as the basis for the rally car, not the other way around.

This does look like a neat little car, though.

[Weebitob]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pockets

"Hyundai's WRC car." That's funny. Hyundai gave up on the WRC last season - there is no WRC car to 'homogenize.'

You've got the term and the concept wrong anyway. The correct word is homologate, and it has to go the other way. They have to use a road car that sells in a certain quantity as the basis for the rally car, not the other way around.

This does look like a neat little car, though.

WOW, my bad and I have been using that word for awhile, no wonder it didn't sound right.

I thought they had their best season last year before they gave up. No wonder why I couldn't find them on the WRC webpage.

I'm still think it is equipped with AWD since they current only have it on automatic, and most people think it wouldn't be in a manufacturer's right mind to make a hothatch with an auto tranny.

I guess you can say its car to comemorate the years they have tried their best in the WRC I guess.

Still a nice hothatch though.

[UberRoo]

WRX, 2.0 liters, 227 horsepower = 114 horsepower / liter
STI, 2.5 liters, 300 horsepower = 120 horsepower / liter
EVO, 2.0 liters, 271 horsepower = 135 horsepower / liter
S2000, 2.2, 240 horsepower = 109 horsepower / liter
SR, 2.0 liters, ??? = ???

As a general rule of thumb, anything over 100 horsepower per liter in a naturally aspirated motor is astounding. Ratios better than that are not uncommon on small displacement motorcycle engines, but almost never happen in cars. (Honda's 2.2 liter S2000 with 240 horsepower is a remarkable animal, but it's anemic 162 ft-lbs of torque testifies to the compromises made to achieve that horsepower figure.) The thing is, once you go over that threshold, you're into forced induction territory.

Usually, forced induction is used to make reaching that threshold easier, not to exceed it. These high performance X-Cars we see today are freaks of engineering. All the engines in the cars I've listed above are exceptional machines. Mitsubishi in particular is known for extracting every ounce of performance they can. Of course, it's relevant to mention that they also have a reputation for going a bit too far and sacrificing reliability.

I think the Subarus, with 114/120 horses per liter is a pretty good benchmark. Any more than that and the costs, which have already gone up considerably with the addition of a compressor, go up significantly more. Reliability also begins to suffer at that point. Unless Hyundai dumps a ton of money into development and is also willing to accept a moderate increase in production costs, we're not going to see their 2-liter motor push more than 200 ponies. They could probably compete with Subaru's displacement/horsepower ratios if they wanted, but I think it'd be foolish to try. Mitsubishi’s ratios are just out of their league, as quite frankly, they're out of Mitsubishi's league too, even though there's reluctance from all around to admit it.


Overall, I like the direction Hyundai is headed, but I wish they'd dump that cheesy Korean styling in favor of something more German. The general profile and proportions of the SR concept are nice, and some of the styling cues are tasty, but it still reeks of plastic. Japanese manufacturers have been getting worse and worse with their Toys-R-Us creations. The big, bold fender arches are great. I'd like to replace everything forward of the front wheels, which currently looks kinda Focus or Subaru-ish. The triangular taillights and the wheels don't work for me either, but rear end is otherwise pretty respectable. The spoiler could be tamed slightly, but I wouldn't remove it. The door handles and hood lines are good, though I'd be more subtle with both. The trim stripes up the roofline at the door seams are also attractive, but I'd paint the antenna to match the car. My biggest gripe is actually the Hyundai logo, which I've always thought was just plain ugly. It's like Honda's mediocre logo, but uglified.

As much as I love to bash Korean cars, I hope they keep trying. Sure, they're screwing up the balance of the global economy, but it'd still be neat to see them finally produce something cool. ...and if they fail, at least I'll have an easy target for more bashing.

[thundering02]

I'll consider buying when they learn to put a manual in.

[drivemusicnow]

Originally Posted by UberRoo

WRX, 2.0 liters, 227 horsepower = 114 horsepower / liter
STI, 2.5 liters, 300 horsepower = 120 horsepower / liter
EVO, 2.0 liters, 271 horsepower = 135 horsepower / liter
S2000, 2.2, 240 horsepower = 109 horsepower / liter
SR, 2.0 liters, ??? = ???

As a general rule of thumb, anything over 100 horsepower per liter in a naturally aspirated motor is astounding. Ratios better than that are not uncommon on small displacement motorcycle engines, but almost never happen in cars. (Honda's 2.2 liter S2000 with 240 horsepower is a remarkable animal, but it's anemic 162 ft-lbs of torque testifies to the compromises made to achieve that horsepower figure.) The thing is, once you go over that threshold, you're into forced induction territory.

Usually, forced induction is used to make reaching that threshold easier, not to exceed it. These high performance X-Cars we see today are freaks of engineering. All the engines in the cars I've listed above are exceptional machines. Mitsubishi in particular is known for extracting every ounce of performance they can. Of course, it's relevant to mention that they also have a reputation for going a bit too far and sacrificing reliability.

I think the Subarus, with 114/120 horses per liter is a pretty good benchmark. Any more than that and the costs, which have already gone up considerably with the addition of a compressor, go up significantly more. Reliability also begins to suffer at that point. Unless Hyundai dumps a ton of money into development and is also willing to accept a moderate increase in production costs, we're not going to see their 2-liter motor push more than 200 ponies. They could probably compete with Subaru's displacement/horsepower ratios if they wanted, but I think it'd be foolish to try. Mitsubishi’s ratios are just out of their league, as quite frankly, they're out of Mitsubishi's league too, even though there's reluctance from all around to admit it.


Overall, I like the direction Hyundai is headed, but I wish they'd dump that cheesy Korean styling in favor of something more German. The general profile and proportions of the SR concept are nice, and some of the styling cues are tasty, but it still reeks of plastic. Japanese manufacturers have been getting worse and worse with their Toys-R-Us creations. The big, bold fender arches are great. I'd like to replace everything forward of the front wheels, which currently looks kinda Focus or Subaru-ish. The triangular taillights and the wheels don't work for me either, but rear end is otherwise pretty respectable. The spoiler could be tamed slightly, but I wouldn't remove it. The door handles and hood lines are good, though I'd be more subtle with both. The trim stripes up the roofline at the door seams are also attractive, but I'd paint the antenna to match the car. My biggest gripe is actually the Hyundai logo, which I've always thought was just plain ugly. It's like Honda's mediocre logo, but uglified.

As much as I love to bash Korean cars, I hope they keep trying. Sure, they're screwing up the balance of the global economy, but it'd still be neat to see them finally produce something cool. ...and if they fail, at least I'll have an easy target for more bashing.

One more time on this forum... Horsepower Per Liter Means Absolutely NOTHING!!!

Seriously think about, what value does horsepower per liter actually show?? other than a slightly interesting comparison, smaller engines will ALWAYS have larger "hp per liter" comparisons, however are rarely "better designed" or "more efficient"

Effeciency is determined by what goes in versus what comes out so therefore the following would be effective comparisons:
MPG vs hp ( fuel in versus power out)
cost of engine vs hp (money in versus power)
Weight of engine vs Hp (physical weight of the motor is very important when considering the speed of the car)

These all compare actually useful characteristics with power. lets take the ever loved example of the ls1 compared to the s2000 motor. The s2000's motor makes well over 109 hp per liter out of a naturally aspirated engine, the corvette motor makes 70 hp per liter. which one looks better? however the corvette makes almost twice the power, while getting better gas mileage, it weighs slightly more, costs less (I'm pretty sure, can't find recent data though) so which engine is better? the only time displacement is a good measure of power limits is when considering displacement limited racing classes.

As far as the car goes, My money is on about 175-180 hp, turbochargd FWD platform. They have no need to make it AWD, and it won't sell more cars that way either. They're looking to go after the civic hatch/focus hatch/golf market. I think its ugly as sin personally, but i hate hatchbacks to begin with. You're thinking they're going to go farther than they are with this design. I bet the base price is under 18K$ though, which will help a lot for kids who want one.

[SilverSpear]

I kinda like that small hyundai, i think its design is the best so far in its category. Remember for the last 15 years, hyundai did "Over-Stupid" designs for its cars, but from 2003 up until now, designing became one of the best in the market. If you look at this new Hyundai you will see that it has the best looks in all its competitors like Honda Civic Type R, new Golf, Frenchies, Audi A3,etc.... and the interior looks classy and with good quality. But still the mechanics i do not trust in these cars, especially the automatic transmission...

[Weebitob]

Actually from what I understand, it is easier to trust an AWD automatic tranny since it is designed within more pradictable shift points as well as having a TCU that can figure out the best way to send power to what wheels, at what speeds, depending on what you are doing.

It is usually the manual AWD transmission you have to worry about since they design in hopes of whatever you and only you put through it. And aside from some solid perameters built within the system it can never quite help you or itself on given situation with whatever wear or tear the person puts it through.

Even Subaru has a hard time with their manual VTDs when it comes to sudden abuse such as sudden downshifts while turning at high speeds or just spanking the shifter around. The only manaufacturers I know of which have superb AWD trannys is Audi and Mitsubishi. But they can't mechanically input into their AWD systems what any given driver would do, let alone have one that can completly withstand any abuse of too much power applied. Another good AWD system is Nissan's ATESSA, but they had to spend milions in order to program any given thing a driver can potentially do when they are in control of the shifter, and the Skyline still slid around a bit because it had too much power but so little control.

So because of the expenditures involved in making a durable manual AWD tranny or one that can predict virtually any random input, it is cheaper of Hyundai just to create an automatic with more gears and a sports shifter in case the driver wants some control but at the TCU's pace. This is probably one of the reason they could be sticking with an auto, even when they make an AWD hothatch. Its sort of like the situation Subaru was in with the SVX.

Also what gives you the idea that a Hyundai can't be above $18k? A fully loaded Santa Fe can start at 24k, the Azera is aiming for a $27k price tag so why would it hurt Hyundai to make an turbocharged AWD hothatch that can be $23k at most if moderately boosted?

Also Hyundai has more cash than you think, they assemble diesel engines for cargo ships, make ram module plus other semiconductors, don't forget who is the #1 arms supplier as well as whos buses and other autos are sold as mass transportation in South Korea as well as some other parts of Asia. They also bought over exotic car manufactuer, as well as electric and other technological autmotive making Proton, I guess they could be starting to put that firm to use.

[immortal_suby]

My guess is they made it a slushbox to avoid warranty claims from abusive 5 spd drivers.