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#16
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just to be an unfathomable pain in the ass, I'll say my '90 CRX Si was quite a good performance car. I could get as much oversteer as I wanted by left foot braking. Hell, I spun out in the snow a couple times because of lift-throttle oversteer. just trying to slow down around a curve and the rear end whips out.
I was at ice races up in NH, and I was pulling better times around the course than many 2.5RSs and WRXs. It was quite a capable machine, and made more use of the power that Honda saw fit to give it (110 war-mongering horsies) than any other car I've driven. it made up for torque with gearing. disc brakes all around, double wishbone suspension, decent weight distribution given the layout. It might be FWD, but it's still a good performance car. CRXs have a reputation at most road courses for being cars to watch out for. Under SCCA regs, It runs in GS and CSP IIRC. same classes as Miatas, which most people will call a "sports car" or "performance car." at least most people that go to auto-x or track days. It's early, I have no coffeem, and I'm bored. so deal. devil's advocate and whatnot. I'll always be a boxer/AWD guy.
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IggDawg is cool -IggDawg 1992 Teal SVX LS-L 160k miles 4.11:1 final drive, K&B dropsprings, ART front rotors, stainless steel brake, aluminum underdrive crank pulley, Kuhmo Ecsta Supra 712's, K&N drop-in filter. Previously owned by Alacrity024. FOR SALE 1994 SVX LSi, Barcelona Red #1659, build date 11/93, 117k miles, RIP ECUtune stage 1, bead crush, smallcar shift kit, TB bypass, SS brake lines, silencer removed, alternator and grounding wires, Mobil1 @ 117k Last edited by IggDawg; 06-16-2004 at 07:36 AM. |
#17
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Thanks for coming to the defense of the CRX IggDawg. I agree that it's a great little car, and my 89 CRX Si is at least as fast as my SVX, if not slightly faster, and handles even better, at least as long as it isn't raining out. Of course, my CRX is far from stock with a B16 swap and a nice expensive suspension set up for autocross. My fiancee and I have a total of three of them, an 88 HF, 88 Si (hers), and my 89 Si.
Why are you getting rid of yours? I don't think I could ever sell mine, but then I get attached to my cars pretty easily... I love my CRX, love my SVX, really like my classic SE-R, and I'm really falling for the Porsche 944 I picked up over the weekend.
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Shane 92 SVX - Sold 98 BMW M3 Sedan 89 Honda CRX Si w/B16 swap 91 Honda CRX Si |
#18
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I ... Uhm....eeeh.... don't know what a "DSM" is ... okokok....laugh if you want.... /Sonny
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Internal name: "SuperSonic" -92 ebony black with 170k KM *** -Stress is when you wake up screaming & you realize you haven't fallen asleep yet. *** |
#19
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No reason why you would have encountered one since you live in Sweden. DSM stands for 'Diamond Star Motors' and is used to refer to three cars that were built by Mitsubishi Motors in the '90's - Mitsu Eclipse, Eagle Talon and Plymouth Laser.
The most desirable DSM are the AWD turbo'd models. Some DSM's have been known to do 11 sec passes in the 1/4 while still being streetable. DSM's also use the 4G63 engine thats also used the Mitsu Evo. -Chike Quote:
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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato 2013 Cosmic Blue 5spd Evo X GSR 2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT RX-8 (sold) 2006 Steel Gray WRX TR (sold) 1996 Brilliant Red SVX L (sold) |
#20
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maybe it's a US term? it stands for "diamond star motors". The first 2 generations of mitsubishi eclipse/eagle talon variants are refered to as a "DSM". the dodge stealth/mitsu 3000gt are also refered to as DSM sometimes. these cars were basically clones sold under different badges, so the the "DSM" label is used since it's irrelavent to specify between eagle or mitsu. or something like that . Also, I think there was a box like the coil pack or something against the firewall that had "DSM" in big letters in the engine bay, which also helped popularize the term. I'm sure an actual DSM owner might have more info on it. "the funny" in the previous post is that anyone doing any serious tuning on a mitsubishi eclipse should really know what DSM means. it's hard to get into a car without picking up the lingo and learning a little history just through conversation.
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IggDawg is cool -IggDawg 1992 Teal SVX LS-L 160k miles 4.11:1 final drive, K&B dropsprings, ART front rotors, stainless steel brake, aluminum underdrive crank pulley, Kuhmo Ecsta Supra 712's, K&N drop-in filter. Previously owned by Alacrity024. FOR SALE 1994 SVX LSi, Barcelona Red #1659, build date 11/93, 117k miles, RIP ECUtune stage 1, bead crush, smallcar shift kit, TB bypass, SS brake lines, silencer removed, alternator and grounding wires, Mobil1 @ 117k |
#21
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A girl in my office owns a small dealership with her husband, and she just got a red '95 Eclipse GSX. Told her it was a sweet DSM and she looked at me like I was talking double dutch!
You'd be surprised at the number of owners who have never heard the term or don't know what it means... -Chike Quote:
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"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato 2013 Cosmic Blue 5spd Evo X GSR 2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT RX-8 (sold) 2006 Steel Gray WRX TR (sold) 1996 Brilliant Red SVX L (sold) |
#22
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(I'll never forgive my first wife for buying that Chevette.) dcb |
#23
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IggDawg is cool -IggDawg 1992 Teal SVX LS-L 160k miles 4.11:1 final drive, K&B dropsprings, ART front rotors, stainless steel brake, aluminum underdrive crank pulley, Kuhmo Ecsta Supra 712's, K&N drop-in filter. Previously owned by Alacrity024. FOR SALE 1994 SVX LSi, Barcelona Red #1659, build date 11/93, 117k miles, RIP ECUtune stage 1, bead crush, smallcar shift kit, TB bypass, SS brake lines, silencer removed, alternator and grounding wires, Mobil1 @ 117k |
#24
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Still, that's only parking for three cars, so my other vehicles end up parked at my parents' house. They want the beat up old truck gone, but they're much more understanding of the CRX and SE-R. I can't wait till we can build our dream house with garage space for around a dozen or so cars As for an Eclipse owner, let alone an "enthusiast", not knowing what a DSM is, that's just sad.
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Shane 92 SVX - Sold 98 BMW M3 Sedan 89 Honda CRX Si w/B16 swap 91 Honda CRX Si |
#25
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So I guess my point is: as a general rule, yes, the average FWD car is a pretty poor performance choice, but a generalization like that does not hold water across the board (the same is true of the average RWD car too) - all one has to do is look at the results of SCCA autocrossing at the national level. Those boys (and girls) are going to run what will win, and they aren't all running RWD or AWD, are they? Harry
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newsvx 1992 SVX LSL, #1215 1997 SVX LSi, #370 "I live with fear every day. Sometimes she lets me go racing." "Getting Older and Slower" Locker: http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/user.php?newsvx |
#26
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#27
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Every single top class racing sport consists of nothing but RWD cars, from Formula One and NASCAR, to Top Fuel drag racing. Every high-end performance car such as the ones produced by the big Italian companies are RWD. The BMW Ms, the Vipers, Corvette, Lotus. Even Mustangs and Camaros are RWD. The SVX is a heavy car, and because of it's weight it will never "feel" nimble or like it handles well. The SVX is dialed in for high speed. On a fast track, it'll kick the crap out of the Focus, the SI, and the Cooper. Need I also mention that the SVX is a luxury car, and it's entirely unreasonable to expect it to compete with a sports car? Considering this, the SVX's luxury is a handicap that roughly equals the FWD handicap of these other cars. Much like watching a Dodge Viper compete against a Lotus Esprit, you'll notice the Viper's weakness in it's handling is compensated for by it's horsepower. The Esprit's weakness in power output is compensated for by it's handling. On an average track, the Viper screams by the Esprit on every straightaway, but the Esprit slips by the Viper on every corner. What better illustration of apples and oranges? But notice both cars are RWD. I wonder why Ferrari doesn't make FWD cars. Oh yeah... They associate their name with performance. Quote:
Take a brand-spankin-new STI with its great weight distribution, remove its rear end, and watch it get killed by everything. These FWD drag cars with all the weight shoveled over the front end only go fast because their weight distribution is so far forward. The problem with that is if you broaden the definition of performance, a car like that will suffer if it has to do anything but go in a straight line. I define "performance" pretty broadly. If you narrow the definition enough, a rocket-car with NWD [No Wheel Drive] is clearly faster than any "any-wheel-drive" car on the planet. ...but I don't think it's worth arguing the "performance" characteristics of a car like that. I stand by my assertion that FWD cars are not performance cars. If you want to widen the definition of performance enough to include them, then they'll sit right at the bottom of the list. |
#28
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I'll add my $0.02 to this debate...
UberRoo, I used to hold your view that a fwd car could never be a true performance machine as the wrong wheels were being driven...then I started watching the Speed Channel and following the Grand Am Cup Series. In this full-fledged, factory sponsored racing league, there are several teams that have entered fwd cars including the RSX Type-S and Neon SRT-4. Last season several teams were also running old Integras...and all of these fwd cars were very competitive in the series and even won a few races if my memory serves me correctly. Also, with the introduction of the Neon SRT-4, several owners have run low 13 sec times on street tires and 12 sec 1/4's on slicks. Thing is, even though a car transfers weight rearward on hard acceleration, suspension tuning (i.e. rock hard springs in the back) can reduce the weight transfer significantly and allow the front wheels to retain traction. Another plus with fwd cars is that they have the lowest drivetrain loss of all front-engined cars. I've been converted. FWD cars can be true performance machines... -Chike Quote:
__________________
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato 2013 Cosmic Blue 5spd Evo X GSR 2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT RX-8 (sold) 2006 Steel Gray WRX TR (sold) 1996 Brilliant Red SVX L (sold) |
#29
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1st Cadillac CTS-V (RWD) 2nd Porsche 996 (RWD) 3rd Cobra SVT (RWD) 4th Porsche 996 (RWD) 5th Porsche 996 (RWD) 6th Nissan 350Z (RWD) 7th Porsche 996 (RWD) 8th Porsche 996 (RWD) 9th BMW M3 (RWD) 10th Porsche 996 (RWD) 11th Lexus IS300 (RWD) 12th BMW 330i (RWD) 13th RSX-S (FWD) --- Finally The RSX weighs 2778lbs and is 200hp. That's 13.9lbs/horse. The 330i weighs 3385lbs and is 225hp. That's 15lbs/horse. The BMW has a comparatively lousy power-to-weight ratio, (and by a considerable margin,) yet it's still faster than the RSX. How do you explain that? Before you try to answer that question, I've considered that these cars have probably been tuned. (I'm using the factory specified curb weight and horsepower.) I don't know the Grand Am Cup rules, but it's probably safe to say that even after both cars have been tuned, the RSX still has a better power to weight ratio. Out of 47 cars listed, only 3 were FWD. Also, this is a class of racing that is far from the upper echelons of performance. This is not Ferrari territory. Something else to note is that many of these cars use ballast to get the balance right. Quote:
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I think that typical drive train losses are commonly exaggerated. I believe it was somebody on this forum that made the point that you can calculate the amount of heat which is generated by inefficient power transfer. It would not be possible to have huge losses without your transmission reaching extremely high temperatures. Some of the numbers I've heard thrown around would literally melt your transmission into a puddle of goo. One thing I want to remain foremost in your mind is that we're still talking about the semantics of performance, i.e., where that threshold lies between the fast cars and all the other ones. Regarding this definition; to each his own. |
#30
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Geez, did this thread spiral off-topic...
...which serves to illustrate my original point: Some folks have a one-track mind.
Quarter-mile times and top speeds are valid issues only on the racetrack. dcb Last edited by dcarrb; 06-18-2004 at 06:18 AM. |
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