SVX Engine cooling "Again & Again" - Page 19

SilverSpear · #**271** 10-21-2009, 01:55 PM

Tony,

I am not trying to demoralize you or the guys but I received a reply from that pro company. After I sent them detailed pics of the pump, they said they cannot do much for it, and more blades will lead to cavitation.

He claimed that an electric pump with a controller is the best way to go.

Dessertrunner · #**272** 10-21-2009, 05:13 PM

I understand Danny it not an issue to me. As it is I seem to be able to put peoples noses out of joint because I haven't done what they suggested "Yet" but I am one man that has a company to run at the same time as trying to fix this issue.
I was a beliver that we should push on with the existing pump but am tending to say the only way forward is to throw it and go electric such as Matt & Rally Bob suggests. We need to give the drilling a try but if the pump flow drops to low we will be no better.

Tony

SilverSpear · #**273** 10-21-2009, 05:19 PM

Good luck Tony, keep us posted

Trevor · #**274** 10-21-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Tony,

I am not trying to demoralize you or the guys but I received a reply from that pro company. After I sent them detailed pics of the pump, they said they cannot do much for it, and more blades will lead to cavitation.

He claimed that an electric pump with a controller is the best way to go.

More blades are the absolute opposite of what is required and would obviously lead to cavitation. What is new?

I have detailed this possible way of dealing with the problem in every conceivable way. Exactly why this particular aspect is still not properly understood, is beyond comprehension.

Dessertrunner · #**275** 10-21-2009, 05:32 PM

Trevor for god shake calm down, fixing caviation of the pump "ONLY" won't make the problems go away. It may turn out to be the biggest problem but it won't stop the left head overheating. When have to build the top pipe as Tom and then Havey has suggest the tee. As I have said its a package deal as it has to be a team effort to get this thing fixed, what happens if we stop caviation but indoing so kill the flow we will be no better off.
Tony

yt · #**276** 10-21-2009, 05:49 PM

its not the pump... Electric pumps have been tried and it is not the solution. Why would a modified stock pump be the solution?

Tom

Dessertrunner · #**277** 10-21-2009, 06:01 PM

Tom were is your thinking at? Were do you think we need to head next?
Tony

yt · #**278** 10-21-2009, 06:25 PM

I am confident a proper exit manifold will do the trick. Gotta give me some time before I can test it though

Tom

oab_au · #**279** 10-21-2009, 06:37 PM

Giday all, ( Casey and Ducati Stoned them again.)

Well back to the question. I have read all this thread and the two other threads on the same subject, before this.
I must say we are at a standstill, till some of the suggestions have been tested to see where we stand on the progress.

The way you set up the fan to test the airflow was amazing,

but then I read this,

Quote:

I used two different cars, mine and my wife. Both had the sump guards (even the standard plastic one) removed

This just negates the testing that you carried out. As has been said, the cover does create a low pressure in the engine compartment behind the radiator. Without it, not only do you lose this assistance, but it allows the air that is forced under the car to curl up behind the radiator, and fill the engine compartment. This results in the radiator having almost, the same pressure acting on both sides of it, which reduces the air flow through it.
I would go as far as to say that for road racing the extra cover that runs back under the gearbox should be fitted to enhance this action.

The question of needing more water flow, to cool a performance engine, is a myth. The engine is air cooled at the radiator, the water is just the transporter. If more heat is to be removed, it has to be done at the radiator, not by pumping water through the engine at a faster rate, water does not change temperature any faster.

Pump cavitation is a fact of engineering, it will happen with a standard engine. If the thermostat is partly closed it will restrict the inlet to the pump, and, at speed, it will cavate. If the impeller speed is high it will pull the molecules of water apart to form bubbles of void.
These are bubbles of a very low pressure, so the water around the bubble will instantly boil due to the pressure drop. It is not hard to tell if this is the problem as when these voids explode into boiling, they will create small pock marks around the aluminum casing, very much like detonation marks around the edges of a piston.
Having said that, I don't think the cavitation will stop the pump from pumping, in our case. Any modifications that you do the the impeller will reduce it's effectiveness at normal speeds. It is a trade off.

So I can't add any more than I did in page #5, post #72.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/show...7&postcount=72

Harvey.

Dessertrunner · #**280** 10-22-2009, 03:11 AM

Well Sh-- I must be on a different planet, I figured it was going to be more complicated to fix the cooling on a SVX, must of been mistaken when I figured that it was worth runnig tests and things, didn't realize because I left the sump guard off the data was now all usless (even though tests last year posted with sump guard showed it ran hotter with then with out), all I had to do was drill holes in the pump and the problem will go away. I apolize for trying to fix the problem and having an open mind. One thing for sure I was prepared to listen to everyone suggestion and to a large degree give them a try. I have never had a closed mind but seems that I am wasting my time because everyone else has the answer. Pretty clear its time for me to move on I have more important things to do in life then listen to all the people who are incapable of listening to a different perspective. I clearly understand why other members get sick of the way they get treated. Bye.
Tony

SilverSpear · #**281** 10-22-2009, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Well Sh-- I must be on a different planet, I figured it was going to be more complicated to fix the cooling on a SVX, must of been mistaken when I figured that it was worth runnig tests and things, didn't realize because I left the sump guard off the data was now all usless (even though tests last year posted with sump guard showed it ran hotter with then with out), all I had to do was drill holes in the pump and the problem will go away. I apolize for trying to fix the problem and having an open mind. One thing for sure I was prepared to listen to everyone suggestion and to a large degree give them a try. I have never had a closed mind but seems that I am wasting my time because everyone else has the answer. Pretty clear its time for me to move on I have more important things to do in life then listen to all the people who are incapable of listening to a different perspective. I clearly understand why other members get sick of the way they get treated. Bye.
Tony

Tony, please do not get depressed, this is not our intention.

We are just saving you time to do stuff that will probably not work. But I guess you should tackle the fans issue and a more advanced upper pipe.

We are all counting on you Tony, don't give up mate...

Trevor · #**282** 10-22-2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Well Sh-- I must be on a different planet, I figured it was going to be more complicated to fix the cooling on a SVX, must of been mistaken when I figured that it was worth runnig tests and things, didn't realize because I left the sump guard off the data was now all usless (even though tests last year posted with sump guard showed it ran hotter with then with out), all I had to do was drill holes in the pump and the problem will go away. I apolize for trying to fix the problem and having an open mind. One thing for sure I was prepared to listen to everyone suggestion and to a large degree give them a try. I have never had a closed mind but seems that I am wasting my time because everyone else has the answer. Pretty clear its time for me to move on I have more important things to do in life then listen to all the people who are incapable of listening to a different perspective. I clearly understand why other members get sick of the way they get treated. Bye.
Tony

Kia ora Tony,

An apparent self serving lecture rather than advice, is enough to put anyone off. If as has been claimed regarding a lack of under shield, "This results in the radiator having almost, the same pressure acting on both sides of it," was correct, not that long ago all cars would have been useless other than for boiling eggs.

In this instance you have been measuring aspects of the problem on a basis of comparison, and an unrelated contingency can rightly be ignored. Your experiments are relevant, not useless and are worthy of sincere congratulation.

My impression is that you have been overwhelmed with so much confusing data, much of which has not been supported by factual evidence, that you are up the wall trying to follow a logical course.

I apologise for becoming increasingly objective, due to this confused rambling thread, having me alongside you up the same ruddy wall.

Remember that you are the one in the driving seat. All us back seat buggers are just that, sitting on bums in a back seat. Yes, take a bye, ignore us all for a while, take time to read the thread through and make your decision based on the evidence before you at this point. Enough is enough.

For now, bye bye. Trevor.

NeedForSpeed · #**283** 10-22-2009, 11:01 AM

Hi Tony,

I see you are frustrated, rightly so, this multii-faceted problem is very real to you. I for one am very interested in your success. This thread was very interesting to me, as you and others worked together to solve a REAL problem.

The fact that Subaru made changes in their six-cylinder cooling systems means that other engineers encountered the same default in the original design. Take a bye, but please return, and post any results or observations publically when you have them.

Thanks for starting this relevant thread, nearly 20-pages now. Thanks for sharing all that you have learned so far.

Ron

Dessertrunner · #**284** 10-22-2009, 01:47 PM

Okay Joe has calmed me down and the fact that you guys are offering support has convinced me to go on. Please don't tell me that I wasted my time doing some test unless you can back up the statement with facts not opinions or dreams. I am happy for you to suggest an alternative prospective and that is good but don't do it by dismissing everyone who has a difference of opinion becasue that mean you have stopped learning.
The big point here is that most people such as Trevor, Harvey and Tom are right in the some of there points, for example as Tom & Harvey suggest the top pipe is a major problem, Toms correctly point out that no car has even been cooled with electirc water pumps, that is correct and Trevor says unless we stop the pump cavitating it won't cool and that is correct, if that means drill a few holes to see if we can move the rev point that the pumps fails at then we should tray it. Has anyone tried and electric pump with a Tom/Harvey design top pipe, no. Jack has electric pump but he has the same standard top pipe and Bob said bad airflow through the radiator , now do you can see my point. Not one of these ideas are going the solve the problem but all combined we have a good chace of getting there. In short if you think that you singly have solved the cooling problem on an SVX by doing one thing put your money were your mouth is prove it, other wise feel free to suggest but don't dismiss others as fools.

To the problem of cooling.
There a re 3 main areas of the cooling system of an engine:-
Engine which creats the source of heat and needs to get rid of it.
The transfer system, coolent & water pump,
Radiator & airflow for getting rid of the heat.
We need a plan that looks at each part of the system and improves it.

My next step is to drill into the outlet of the water pump under the engine and fit a pressure guage to find out if and if the coolent pressure drops at high reves which would confirm pump caviation. Will let you know how we go.
Tony

NeedForSpeed · #**285** 10-22-2009, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Okay Joe has calmed me down and the fact that you guys are offering support has convinced me to go on. Please don't tell me that I wasted my time doing some test unless you can back up the statement with facts not opinions or dreams. I am happy for you to suggest an alternative prospective and that is good but don't do it by dismissing everyone who has a difference of opinion becasue that mean you have stopped learning.
The big point here is that most people such as Trevor, Harvey and Tom are right in the some of there points, for example as Tom & Harvey suggest the top pipe is a major problem, Toms correctly point out that no car has even been cooled with electirc water pumps, that is correct and Trevor says unless we stop the pump cavitating it won't cool and that is correct, if that means drill a few holes to see if we can move the rev point that the pumps fails at then we should tray it. Has anyone tried and electric pump with a Tom/Harvey design top pipe, no. Jack has electric pump but he has the same standard top pipe and Bob said bad airflow through the radiator , now do you can see my point. Not one of these ideas are going the solve the problem but all combined we have a good chace of getting there. In short if you think that you singly have solved the cooling problem on an SVX by doing one thing put your money were your mouth is prove it, other wise feel free to suggest but don't dismiss others as fools.

To the problem of cooling.
There a re 3 main areas of the cooling system of an engine:-
Engine which creats the source of heat and needs to get rid of it.
The transfer system, coolent & water pump,
Radiator & airflow for getting rid of the heat.
We need a plan that looks at each part of the system and improves it.

My next step is to drill into the outlet of the water pump under the engine and fit a pressure guage to find out if and find out if the coolent pressure drops at high reves which would confirm pump caviation. Will let you know how we go.
Tony

Good show mate!