Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine.

[TomsSVX]

Originally Posted by SVXRide

Tony,

Funny you should bring up the subject of the dry sump, as I was just thinking about it during my 8 hour drive home from dropping my daughter off at college!

1. What's the current status of your set up and near term plans for completion?
2. Do we have any better handle on improving the flow to the rear mains?

Thanks!

Bill

Aux route to rear end of the oil rifle... Path of least resistance

Tom

[Dessertrunner]

I will accept blame for going off topic slightly but you will see why,
During my recent trip accross the Simpson desert I had the Iris valve functioning this time and what I found was the car climbed the dunes farm more successfully then in the previous trip.
On a number of occusion all the 4wdrives in our group tried to see who could climb the highest up the dune face. Every time the SVX got higher, this was against a Toyota (brand new) & Nissan 4 wheel drives. What was clear is that the motor on the SVX was pulling from 6,000 down to 800 rpm very consistantly.

Okay what did I learn well our new 10k rpm engine need to give up some of its maxium power to acheive a flatter torque curve. This doesn't mean that we want max power at 5k and nothing at 10k it just means a bit more work getting the right power rpm curve.

Also when you are driving 10,000 k and pushing the engine, gearbox and cooling to its limits you tend to discover things that will become problems in our new 10k rpm engine.

Before the trip I was open minded on moving the thermostate to the top of the engine such as YTom had done. I was supportive of it with out clearly being rock solid as to why it needed to be done. As a result of the trip I will clearly say that moving the thermostate to the top of the engine is a must.

Here is the logic as to why the current position of the thermostate on the water pump won't work:-
If the thermostate is located at the pump it opens based on the temp of the return water from the 2 small bypass pipe AND the combinded temp of the return water from the radiator. In other words the actual operation temp of the engine has very little effect the amount of coolant supplied to the engine as a result the operation temp of the engine will vary up to 20 degrees C. Some may say big deal, but if I am tuning a engine to run at 10k rpm the operation temp is a big factor. Talking to Bazza last night he mentioned that our dash temp guages are designed to not move when they are between a large range (jump in with the number Bazza). Based on that Subaru knew all a long this was a issue but lived with it on road cars.



Okay to answer some other questions:-
Haven't done much on the sump but its pretty close to completion still need to sort the drive out and find a tank.

With the exhaust plans we will tidy up the deminison as we complete the design. My guess that will be in the next month or so.


Tom your point about tapping into the back oil galleries is the only way I see out of the flow problem, except that the left side doesn't come through at full size so may need to come in the top of the block on that one.


Will keep you posted.
Tony

[Dessertrunner]

THis just came in on my email, I have contacted a dealer to find out why it happens with manual cars not Auto,

GATES LAUNCHES TWO NEW TOOLS

August 2012
CORRECT TIMING BELT CLEARANCE IS CRITICAL ON SUBARU APPLICATIONS

Incorrect clearance between the guide plate and timing belt in specific Subaru engines (with manual transmission) causes extreme overheating, and engine seizure. This extreme heat results in the failure of the automatic tensioner, influences the timing belt to ‘jump teeth’, and ultimately causes serious engine damage. Gates Australia has seen cases where the heat generated has been so severe that the bearings have disintegrated with the vehicle having travelled less the 50 kilometres.

There are over 200,000 vehicles on road across Australia and New Zealand that are impacted by this issue. It is very important that all automotive technicians are aware of this issue, and are armed with the correct protocols to ensure they can avoid any unnecessary complications.

Correct installation practice is critical (and getting it wrong can have very costly implications). Unless special care is taken to ensure that the correct clearance is achieved between the timing belt and guide plate, this failure mode will occur.

The Gates Spacer Tool is Australian Design Registered with a Patent Pending, and is specifically designed to assist the automotive technician achieve correct and even clearance between the timing belt and guide plate in the affected Subaru applications. Further, the tool is accurate, safe and easy to remove upon completion of the job.

Gates is the ONLY supplier of a specifically designed tool (‘The Gates Spacer Tool’) that assists the automotive technician to achieve correct and even clearance between the timing belt and guide plate, and helps resolve the issue.

The ‘Gates Spacer Tool’ is automatically included in the Gates Timing Component Kits relating to affected Subaru applications.

Visit www.GatesAustralia.com.au/SpacerTool to find installation instructions and a complete list of vehicle applications affected by the issue, and to identify the correct Gates part numbers.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Tony,

PPG is the best aftermarket gears manufacturer for the subaru gearbox.
They are quite expensive, but virtually bulletproof. I suggest you become rally good friends with the owner.. And probably get a special discount for the SVX community

Keep us posted

I broke second gear twice in my 5 speed PPG gearbox - PPG did a good job of holding it together but the case design is the issue rather than the actual gears. 6MT case design is completely different although even then I've broken my 6MT selector twice - however replaced the stock selector with a PPG billet unit in the 6MT and hasn't broken since. Something you'll probably need Tony - a lot of rally guys chew these up every few events also. I think mine were doing 70 odd laps before failure.

With the gates belts Tony - I had one on my old 2.5L that went to 9.5K... it was rather stretched after minimal usage. Can they do kevlar units?

[oab_au]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

Aux route to rear end of the oil rifle... Path of least resistance

Tom

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Tom your point about tapping into the back oil galleries is the only way I see out of the flow problem, except that the left side doesn't come through at full size so may need to come in the top of the block on that one.

Will keep you posted.
Tony

Getting to the rear of the galleries is not that easy. I think the easiest option would be to feed the oil into the front of the right gallery plug. That is the front end of the rear mains run. It is a big pipe that runs to the rear, so I can't see any restriction to flow. There is more room to fit an elbow there than at the rear.
Inside that plug, under the pressure light switch, the gallery splits to the other side, that feeds the front mains. The distance is about the same to all the mains.
With out the pump fitted, there may be room to do a drive, to some thing else.

Harvey.

[Dessertrunner]

I have a number of concerns that I need to address with this engine so I am aiming to run a number of tests after I finish the dry sump. My concerns are as follows:-

Oil flows & issues,
- How much the current pump really pumps, given what Bazza found I think we can safly assume that the number in the book is incorrect.
- At what revs give what pressures in the system & flow.
- In addiation what HP the current pump uses to supply the system.
- What pressure does the releive valve really blow off at.
- Do I need to re drill the block and oil galleries. How much flow at each journal.

Water pump which currently you can change the speed of,
- I need to find out what happens at 10,000 rpm as my pass reasearch found that at 5,000rpm revs the power consumption (from memory 2kw) is pretty hi which means that at 10.000 rpm the water pump could us 8 kw.
- What I need to do to reduce the pressure in the system.
- If the power is over the top it will break the cam belt. If I am not confident then I need to move the pump,
- Will my new design radiator handle the flow.


Okay so how do we run the test, well I plan to power both pumps with electric motors and that way I can run the test up to the maxium revs, the test maxium revs need to be 12,000rpm so I know that at 10,000 rpm none of these issues will give me pain.


So there is were we are at now.
Tony

[Dessertrunner]

I have moved the oil flow discussion over to here as it revelent to what we are trying to do with this engine.

Okay I looked closer at the oil restrictor plates in the block and have arrived at a bit of confusion. They look like they either didn't get fitted right or they are all different sizes to enable a fixed amount of oil that Subaru figured was required for each bearing.

The only way we are going to find the answer is flow test each Jurnal and see if the restrictors plate are fitted correctly.

Also Bazza asked the question which I think is a good one what flow will the existing galleries take of oil. I am going to see if I can check the flow rates on a hydrulic table.

Tony

[Dessertrunner]

Okay got some info, its a bad copy but the graph shows the flow rate of oil in different pipe sizes. Please when using it understand that at best our pressure are on the low side of return lines. When these guys talk pressure lines they mean 3,000 psi not 50 psi like our engines.
From my rough read of it the flow in our galleries is to low at high revs.
Tony
Link
http://www.mccullochs.com.au/userfil...0Nomograph.pdf

[bazza]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Okay got some info, its a bad copy but the graph shows the flow rate of oil in different pipe sizes. Please when using it understand that at best our pressure are on the low side of return lines. When these guys talk pressure lines they mean 3,000 psi not 50 psi like our engines.
From my rough read of it the flow in our galleries is to low at high revs.
Tony
Link
http://www.mccullochs.com.au/userfil...0Nomograph.pdf

Can you find one about bearing pressures? Could we run 150 psi through the bearings? I guess we have to keep drag in mind though.

[Dessertrunner]

Originally Posted by bazza

Can you find one about bearing pressures? Could we run 150 psi through the bearings? I guess we have to keep drag in mind though.

The answer is yes we can run at 150 psi but really the amount of KW power required to drive the pump will be major. Rough guess about 4kw, that said does anyone know what pressure NASCAR engines run at?
Tony


Just checked 50 - 60 psi

[bazza]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

The answer is yes we can run at 150 psi but really the amount of KW power required to drive the pump will be major. Rough guess about 4kw, that said does anyone know what pressure NASCAR engines run at?
Tony


Just checked 50 - 60 psi

4 kw is nothing as far as engine losses go (with turbo haha). The belt can handle 12 kw can't it? LOL not seeing an issue here although given Nascars run 50-60 psi and so did the turbo F1's... I think there's where we want to be.

[Dessertrunner]

The other issue I forgot to mention is the higher the pressure the more heat created in just moving the oil because the friction is getting higher.

[bazza]

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

The other issue I forgot to mention is the higher the pressure the more heat created in just moving the oil because the friction is getting higher.

Indeed. So 50-60 psi you think?

[Dessertrunner]

I have got the drive sorted for the sump here is the latest pdf. Cut the front senso mount off a oil pump to use. Also had to machine the back of the timing belt drive pulley so I can fit the pump drive pulley behind but infront of the engine still leaving enough room to fit the seal into the neew front cover plate that replaces the oil pump. Had it all roughly fitted together today and it looked great.
Still a bit to go but can see the end in site.
Tony

[Dessertrunner]

Here is a shot of the assembled drive pulley.