Why our country is screwed

[dcarrb]

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

And BTW, dcarrb,
I operate on the principle that if the rights of one legitimate citizen are abridged, then they are abridged for all legitimate citizens.

When someone is shut up by being called a racist for speaking out against policy that has nothing to do with race... when town hall meeting attendees are beaten by SEIU members, and one man even had a finger amputated... That is loss of freedom by intimidation and fear.

When a school child cannot pray, cannot have a bible with their textbooks, cannot display a cross, cannot sing a christmas song at christmas time, due to false condemnation, and the ACLU sues on such basis... the freedom to practice the religion of your choice is abridged.

When legal citizens have to go to the supreme court to ensure their right to bear arms is upheld in the district of Columbia, we have a problem. The fact that legitimate citizens in New Orleans had their means of self defense seized, even by force, and destroyed during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, and the government is talking about further abridging that right all the time... I would say that is a pending loss of civil liberty.

When US car dealerships are stripped of their franchises with no recourse, by fiat decision of government-controlled General Motors, THAT is a loss of civil liberties.

When the dealers that are left were greeted with a message that tacitly took control of their private computers when they logged in to Cash-4-Clunkers, that is a violation of civil liberties.

When the white house asks for people to report other citizens who disagree with current policy, to an executive branch web-site, that is a violation of the law that says the executive branch cannot keep lists of people's information on file, but also must have records of all white house correspondences... Which is it?

When the government can sieze property under eminent domain, and give it over to some other private entity, simply to generate a larger tax base, THAT is a primary loss of civil liberties, and the rights to privacy and private ownership of property.

When border agents who are carrying out their duty can be erroneously charged, and mis-represented by the US attorney's office, and those two agents spend more than two years in solitary confinement for doing their jobs, while the drug runner illegal immigrant gets preferential treatment, and a "get out of jail free" card from that US Attorney's office and continues to run drugs with it... that is absolutely corrupt and unacceptable loss of freedom for brave officers who were protecting us.

I am sure there are more knowledgeable people than I on this topic, but those are just the ones off the top of my head, from news headlines for the last couple of years.

And before you ask about me... if this can happen to ANY american, it can happen to me, or it can happen to you. Once the door is open, anyone can walk through the gate of precedent, until that gate is firmly shut and locked again. I don't see this government getting more benevolent, I see it getting more onerous.

Are you suggesting that race has played no factor in the rancor over the current administration? That no misguided soul of any political stripe has ever before resorted to violence?

What if your child's teacher has religious views different from your own? Suppose you are a devout Southern Baptist and the teacher is a Catholic, Jew, Muslim, atheist? Shall we pass a law that none of the latter may teach?

Is The Government closing Ford dealerships?

Have soldiers come by to collect your firearm?

Look, I'm here asking why conservatives are in such an uproar not to pick a fight; I genuinely want to know. I want to find common ground because I'm an American, and you're an American, and all the discontent that's being fostered on both sides of the fence gets us nowhere.

So, this country has become unrecognizable to some. Shall we go back to when black folk had to ride in the back of the bus? When one-quarter of workers were unemployed and had no social services? When women couldn't vote, much less hold political office? When the economy of an entire region was built on the backs of slaves? No, things now certainly are not perfect, but surely no thinking person really wants to rewind the clock.

Taxes. Okay, so don't use public highways. Don't use public parks. Stay off public lands. Don't fly unless it's in your own aircraft, and don't use air traffic control. Don't apply for a FEMA loan if some calamity wipes-out your home. Don't call 911 if you need a cop or an EMT or a fireman. Don't apply for disability if you're hurt on the job. Decline Medicare and Medicaid. Don't accept Social Security. Don't expect help if your unemployed, uninsured, out of luck. What becomes of these unfortunates... labor camps? Debtor prisons? Cardboard boxes beneath bridges? Where's the morality in this?

Since the birth of this nation there have malcontents from all extremes grousing about "why our country is screwed." What a pessimistic view! Why not try to agree on some things rather than staking-out a philosophical ideal, fostering perpetual discontent, and rejecting all who dissent? By failing to work together, we have so much to lose.

dcb

[Subie59]

finally, a voice of reason.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by dcarrb

Are you suggesting that race has played no factor in the rancor over the current administration? That no misguided soul of any political stripe has ever before resorted to violence?

That is a hypothetical extrapolation. ACTUALLY, a black man selling buttons and T-shirts against the health care plan was assaulted by SEIU members.

ACTUALLY, a man lost a finger at a town hall meeting when he was assaulted by other PRO-administration demonstrators.

In current events, the people against the president's policies have NOT been violent, but have been met with small incidents of violence.

On 9-12, there were 1-2 million people in Washington DC... NO violence, and the place was left cleaner than most public gatherings like it.

There may be a couple of crazies out there, but they aren't getting much press. The press has only been covering Jimmy CARTER calling people he doesn't know, and has no information about, racists... as a blind ad-hominem attack on wide swaths of american people.

The people who have problems with this administration have PLENTY of policy disputes, and have not shown themselves to be racially motivated to any significant degree.

So put away the tired racist accusations, or go over to the "am I a racist?" thread.

What if your child's teacher has religious views different from your own? Suppose you are a devout Southern Baptist and the teacher is a Catholic, Jew, Muslim, atheist? Shall we pass a law that none of the latter may teach?

A math teacher, or an english teacher should not be teaching religion, first of all.

An academic teacher that is teaching comparative religion should be as objective as possible, as a matter of academic honesty.

And religion of choice should be taught in the home, and in places of worship, not in school... But public schools have been reported to teach children about Islam through role-playing immersion curriculum. If they taught Sunday School in a public school, heads would roll, and the ACLU would be on site faster than you could say their whole name.

An employee of a public school is an AGENT of the school, and as such must be subject to the policies of freedom. I believe a favorite liberal mis-used code word is "tolerance".

A student is NOT an agent of the school, but a client, and a free citizen.

US Constitution Amendment I:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Government, even at a state and local level, by being part of the United States, has ascribed to the US Constitution as the ultimate law of the land, accepting the premise that these rights shall not be infringed.

An agent of the government, including a public school, MUST NOT ESTABLISH A STATE RELIGION, and MUST NOT PROHIBIT THE RIGHT FOR PEOPLE TO EXERCISE THEIR OWN RELIGION.

A teacher cannot impose, but both teachers and students, as citizens are free to practice the religion of their choice, and to wear it on their sleeve, or not to.

That amendment has been twisted, and "free exercise" has become freedom from other people exercising...

Freedom OF Religion is antithetical to freedom FROM religion.

Is The Government closing Ford dealerships?

No, but they closed GM dealerships and Chrysler dealerships, and some data points to the possibility that it was driven by political contributions as to which dealer owners were denied their franchises. Overwhelmingly republican biased.

And when push comes to shove, The UAW is in bed with the government, and has a stake in Chrysler and GM, as does the government...

What happens when FORD needs to compete with government-supported competitors, an negotiate with UAW that has a conflict of interest with that competition...

That is not a free market.

Have soldiers come by to collect your firearm?

Not yet, but hell if I am going to wait for that to happen.

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

A militia is an organization of citizens acting in their own best interests for their common defense, and is specifically NOT a standing army of professionals employed by the government.

"being necessary to the security of a free state" is critically important. It falls to the people to keep their own country free, even potentially against their own government usurpation of those freedoms.

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." - as plain language as possible.

This is for the sovereign people of this country to defend themselves, from all enemies, foreign, and domestic. Something our politicians SWEAR AN OATH TO DO, and to protect and defend this country and it's constitution.

Police officers DID come into homes, and DID seize legal fire arms from the citizens in and around New Orleans in the days following Katrina. They disposed or stored those firearms improperly, and most were ruined by water damage and rust, if they weren't outright purposely destroyed.

When THAT happens, it is TOO LATE to debate whether or not it can happen, it HAS happened.

If it can happen there, under that duress, what will happen tomorrow, when the next crisis happens... that is a horrible precedent to be set, and it opens the door on EVERY american citizen, not just those who happened to be infringed before.

Look, I'm here asking why conservatives are in such an uproar not to pick a fight; I genuinely want to know. I want to find common ground because I'm an American, and you're an American, and all the discontent that's being fostered on both sides of the fence gets us nowhere.

You are not fostering my discontent. Our leaders selling us down the river in every way possible is what is fostering my discontent...

ANY VIGILANT CITIZEN, when faced with what is going on here, should be concerned with these trends.

Do you know how to live your life? Do you aspire for anything in your life to improve?

If you say yes to either of those... you should be wary of government control. It will regulate, restrict, and infringe your freedom, both politically and economically.

Do you want a cubicle-residing bureaucrat in a government building who likely hates his job, to decide how you live, as a blanket policy, when he has no idea who you are?

Do you want your ability to survive and thrive and improve yourself if you choose, to be determined by that bureaucrat?

Or would you rather keep your freedom, and live your own life with your own family...

Is the head of your household in your household, or in Washington, or in your state capital, or in city hall?

So, this country has become unrecognizable to some. Shall we go back to when black folk had to ride in the back of the bus? When one-quarter of workers were unemployed and had no social services? When women couldn't vote, much less hold political office? When the economy of an entire region was built on the backs of slaves? No, things now certainly are not perfect, but surely no thinking person really wants to rewind the clock.

That is such a red herring argument. THOSE THINGS WERE RECTIFIED BY A FREE PEOPLE. PEOPLE fought for civil rights and suffrage.

PEOPLE fought and died in a civil WAR based partly on the issue of slavery, which has existed otherwise throughout HUMAN HISTORY.

Those aren't constructs of the United States Government, and the limitation and adaptability of the US Constitution, deferring to a free moral people worked to MOVE PAST THOSE THINGS.

I want that freedom to survive. The FREEDOM TO FIGHT FOR WHAT IS RIGHT AND MORAL.

NO tyrannical regime, no central control, no top-down governed country has fought for what is right more than the free people of the United States of America.

I do not accept your premise that those things were our fault. You might as well take credit for the ancient egyptian slaves. It is HISTORY, and thanks to free Americans, is relegated to History, not current events.

Taxes. Okay, so don't use public highways. Don't use public parks. Stay off public lands. Don't fly unless it's in your own aircraft, and don't use air traffic control. Don't apply for a FEMA loan if some calamity wipes-out your home. Don't call 911 if you need a cop or an EMT or a fireman. Don't apply for disability if you're hurt on the job. Decline Medicare and Medicaid. Don't accept Social Security. Don't expect help if your unemployed, uninsured, out of luck. What becomes of these unfortunates... labor camps? Debtor prisons? Cardboard boxes beneath bridges? Where's the morality in this?

MORE RED HERRINGS!!!

I didn't say NO taxes. I said much lower taxes. Go back and read what I said about infrastructure that no other entity is suitable to manage, and that being government purview by last resort. That would include public roads.

If my taxes were appropriately low, I wouldn't mind if they went for law enforcement, national defense, and public infrastructure. Those are a small minority of the current 3.9 TRILLION DOLLAR federal budget, and the US government is deficit spending beyond that.

Air travel is a private industry, BTW... And Reagan had to bust the air traffic controller union, and de-regulate that industry from grid-lock. Private industry can handle that, with a minimal influence from government regulation to simply unify standards and measures.

I would not apply for FEMA. That is what private-industry insurance is for. I buy insurance because it is smart risk management for me. Maybe others should look into it. SEIZING money from me in taxes means I have less buying power for the things like insurance that I do need.

BTW, like life insurance, and car insurance, even HEALTH insurance should be similarly private. That is NOT the government's purview.

Law enforcement is a primary function of government. I have relatives that have been a soldier, one is a high ranked sherrif's deputy, as well as 2 EMTs, one is an RN, and two volunteer fire fighters, one being the Fire Chief, Captain, and certified instructor...

So, I know a little bit about emergency services... and again, are a legitimate function of government, if all of the rest of the BS social programs are allowed to fall away.

Welfare, Medicare, Social Security... all things that should be the responsibility of people in their own lives for health care provision, and fiscal security and retirement planning. Most people wouldn't put themselves into bankruptcy, as SS, and Medicare are going into.

Social Security should be private retirement savings, and if taxes were suitably low, it wouldn't matter if it was post-tax dollars... Taxes go up over time, anyway... and really need to be kept in check.
Welfare should be private, not-for-profit charity organizations. They tend to have far more real sympathy than any government bureaucrat anyway.
Medicare should be private health insurance, and if necessary, supplanted by charitable contributions.

Americans like to be generous when they can afford to, the statistics bear that out, comparing charitable giving in various countries, per capita.

But nobody feels generous on tax day. Seizing money to give to others is blatantly immoral, and it is worse when it is used by politicians to secure votes through pet projects and dependency on government services. When a politician can run for office on the basis that he will steal more money from honest americans, and give it to potential voters if they elect that politician is the essence of corruption, and the antithesis of generosity and charity.

Social programming takes up at least half of the federal budget, and a significant portion of the budgets of every state. Social health care is bankrupting Massachusetts, which is supposedly the model for the current reform bills in congress.

If that money was taken away from the government, and not taxed away from the people in the first place... they could AFFORD to buy, invest, and save for their own insurance products, and investments and savings...

The government's only role in that realm is to prosecute fraud, to protect consumers from illegal business practices, otherwise up-and-up private industry gets better results EVERY TIME, compared to politicians and bureaucrats that continually raid those funds.

Unemployment should not be comfortable, and it should be a motivation to keep your job, and work harder. If it does happen, that is what a personal emergency savings fund is for. People should be responsible enough to have emergency provision for themselves, and if they kept more of their money, they could afford to do that without ruining the rest of their lifestyle.

The government is not the answer, the government is the OBSTACLE. are you getting it yet?

Since the birth of this nation there have malcontents from all extremes grousing about "why our country is screwed." What a pessimistic view! Why not try to agree on some things rather than staking-out a philosophical ideal, fostering perpetual discontent, and rejecting all who dissent? By failing to work together, we have so much to lose.

dcb

I will not give up what I believe and what I know. That is my philosophy. Why should I give up what I believe and know to be correct, just to agree with people who are wrong about it?

You do your research, you find the truth, you come to agree with me that people do better for themselves than the government can do for them... and that is the basis of a FREE CITIZENRY, and impetus for limited government...

Then we'll agree, and we'll both be free, and happier than if the government is micromanaging us.

I don't need to give up what is right, in order to agree with people who don't have it right yet. People who propose policies that "feel good" with "good intentions", but have failed every other time they have been tried, and lead inexorably to more central control over the population, which is mutually exclusive with a free people governing themselves through a republic.

You go out and find the truth, and you'll agree with me more than you think. Maybe not every point... but you might find you aren't as far away from me as you might like to think.s

As a conservative, most of us have had to evaluate our values and ideals in every way imaginable, in order to defend our ideological position. We know what we believe, and why, and it has been refined by the process of constant critical thinking.

I am not tacitly rejecting anyone, nor am I "picking a fight." I am trying to have a discussion. If I were rejecting people of differing views, I would NEVER discuss what I am discussing now. I wouldn't bother with it.

And if you think "can't we all just get along" is going to preserve your liberty, then you really need to shed that naiveté. Things are not hunky-dory, and vigilance is required, now more than ever.

Working together is not the point. Working toward the correct goal is the point. I welcome any and all who wish to work together with me and people like me... to work toward the goal of preservation, and conservation of FREEDOM. GOVERNMENT is what must be held to their constitutional restriction, not the government restricting the people out of their freedoms and liberties.

[Myxalplyx]

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

I will not give up what I believe and what I know. That is my philosophy. Why should I give up what I believe and know to be correct, just to agree with people who are wrong about it?

You do your research, you find the truth, you come to agree with me that people do better for themselves than the government can do for them... and that is the basis of a FREE CITIZENRY, and impetus for limited government...

Then we'll agree, and we'll both be free, and happier than if the government is micromanaging us.

I don't need to give up what is right, in order to agree with people who don't have it right yet. You go out and find the truth, and you'll agree with me.

As a conservative, most of us have had to evaluate our values and ideals in every way imaginable, in order to defend our ideological position. We know what we believe, and why, and it has been refined by the process of constant critical thinking.

And if you think "can't we all just get along" is going to preserve your liberty, then you really need to shed that naiveté. Things are not hunky-dory, and vigilance is required, now more than ever.

This is the problem right there. This is why people can't agree or come to common ground. No open mindedness to learn something new or see things from a different perspective. No ability to compromise for the sake of peace. People who KNOW they are right and no matter what someone else says or does, they will not budge because the other person is wrong. If the whole world thought this way, no-one would ever get along and constant war would be inevitable. It's a loose-loose situation. It is what it is though.

I still don't get why the government should have sat back and did nothing or do nothing about the recession we were in and the depression we were getting into. Why the government should not get involved with healthcare. Sure they should be hands off but if things have gotten out of control, they should continue to turn a blind eye?

I'm an open minded person. What government have successfully done this?

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Myxalplyx

This is the problem right there. This is why people can't agree or come to common ground. No open mindedness to learn something new or see things from a different perspective. No ability to compromise for the sake of peace.

Did you see that?

That was the point going right by. You completely missed it.

Open mindedness is a cliche. If you tilt your head, your brains run out, if your mind is open to anything.

Things have to be VETTED in order to be assimilated into my opinion. I don't just add anything that may or may not be true.

PEACE????? Peace is not something acheived through compromise. It didn't work for people to compromise with Hitler, did it?

Give him Sudetenland, and he'll be appeased, and not cause more trouble... Sure....

How on earth do you think I came about these views? I have studied history, politics, and current events for YEARS. It has been the ESSENCE of a learning process.

But learning un-truth is not learning.

People who KNOW they are right and no matter what someone else says or does, they will not budge because the other person is wrong. If the whole world thought this way, no-one would ever get along and constant war would be inevitable. It's a loose-loose situation. It is what it is though.

WRONG.

First off, I never said I am right no matter what. I said I am right in what I have put forward. I don't portend to know everything,

I know what I know. New information, as I said, has to pass the test first, and then I'll know that, too, and the way TRUTH works, is that it will fit together with what I already know like a puzzle piece. Maybe it will be a big part of the overall picture, maybe it will just make the picture I already see that much clearer.

The whole world is not this way, because many people in the world do not seek truth. They seek feelings, or they seek power, or they seek means and wealth, and truth doesn't nearly matter as much, and truth is not subjective or relative. Truth is truth.

I still don't get why the government should have sat back and did nothing or do nothing about the recession we were in and the depression we were getting into. Why the government should not get involved with healthcare. Sure they should be hands off but if things have gotten out of control, they should continue to turn a blind eye?

THE GOVERNMENT CAUSED MOST OF THIS. Over-regulation, over-taxation, and their incentives for banks to risk money on people who were a bad risk, and should have been helped in other sustainable ways, by the free enterprise system, not by the government.

The government will use healthcare to bleed the economy dry, and micromanage EVERYONE'S lifestyle, as a rationalization and justification to a government-controlled, and thus fiscally finite system.

Look at every other way government healthcare has been done... it is not as good as private enterprise. NOT ONE SINGLE CASE.

IT is not the best interest of private business to let things get out of control. The government causes a lack of control through regulation, and unintended consequences OF that regulation.

I'm an open minded person. What government have successfully done this?

Your mind is open to accept things that have been proven not to work.

The US has been the object lesson in the success of this philosophy, but our leaders are CHANGING IT FUNDAMENTALLY.

No country, no government, just as no person is inherently perfect. It isn't a matter of perfection, it is a matter of goals and ideology, and what is held as a goal, even if perfect execution of the goal is unattainable.

Our country grew faster and farther, by being more free. We rose from colonies to a sole world superpower in 200 years, and are the most free society in world history, and a destination for millions of legal immigrants. The US has also been the most benevolent military force in our world than any civilization that has come before us. We don't conquer in the traditional sense... we have spread freedom, and defeated tyranny. Our citizenry instead have conquered slavery and have gotten better civil rights and suffrage.

Yet those things are being twisted, and used to justify more regulations, less freedom, more central control, and more socialistic governance than ever before. WE ARE HEADED AWAY FROM THE IDEALS THAT THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ON. Ideals that have worked better that what we are changing to. Open mindedness to despots and dictators who chastize us, and socialist countries that criticize us have turned our country's head away from the ideals that have allowed this country to surpass those things. Our country's rightful confidence has been replaced by self-loathing guilt, and that guilt is not founded in the whole truth. That is what being open-minded does, it brings the pursuit of excellence down to the level of it's detractors.

In the last 50-100 years, this country has been slowly turning from our founding principles to a more top-down controlling NATIONAL government, rather than a restricted FEDERAL government, and that rate of change has been given a big push in the last few years, and is being pushed continually harder now.

This is something that should be resisted by anyone who claims to love freedom.

Being open minded to it will only allow your freedoms to be taken from you before you realize they are gone.

NOT everything should be accepted on face value, not everything should be compromised with. Sometimes freedom and liberty is more important than feeling good about getting along with people who don't have your best interests at heart.

PLEASE learn to be more discerning about what you accept. Open-mindedness is a trick to destroy critical thinking skills.

[Zandar]

This is the problem right there. This is why people can't agree or come to common ground. No open mindedness to learn something new or see things from a different perspective. No ability to compromise for the sake of peace.

OK, I'll bite. Let's see if you really believe this, or if it's just intellectual thuggery (like calling people racist when race never even came up). Let's see you "open your mind" to the other side, and "see things from their perspective." Let's see you "compromise for the sake of peace."

Oh, wait; it's only conservatives who need to compromise and open their minds to leftist philosophies. Leftist/statists/socialists/etc. already have an open mind to their own perspectives and have already agreed to allow others to compromise to their viewpoints. Sorry, I forgot that.

I still don't get why the government should have sat back and did nothing or do nothing about the recession we were in and the depression we were getting into. Why the government should not get involved with healthcare. Sure they should be hands off but if things have gotten out of control, they should continue to turn a blind eye?

I may seem a bit off point, here, but follow me on this.

People on the left always ascribe philanthropy and kindness with government intervention, and greed and power grabbing with corporations. The funny thing is, both entities are made up of people. What's so crazy about thinking that the people in government will use a crisis as an excuse to grab more power?

Did you ever think that Hliburton was just trying to do the Iraqis a favour? Of course not! They're out for profit, plain and simple.

Why do the same people who hate Haliburton love the government when they do the same thing? Why do you trust the people in government but not the people in corporations?

Charity is charity when someone gives of what they have to help someone else. Taking from someone under compulsion and then giving part of what you took to endear yourself to someone else while keeping a portion for yourself is not charity. I'm tired of people acting like you're heartless if you don't endorse the robbery and scamming. What would they say if a corporation did the same thing?

[dcarrb]

Originally Posted by BoxerFanatic

I will not give up what I believe and what I know. That is my philosophy. Why should I give up what I believe and know to be correct, just to agree with people who are wrong about it?

You do your research, you find the truth, you come to agree with me that people do better for themselves than the government can do for them... and that is the basis of a FREE CITIZENRY, and impetus for limited government...

Then we'll agree, and we'll both be free, and happier than if the government is micromanaging us.

The thing is, in a nation of 300+ million souls, it ain't all about you. Or me.

(Sheesh, my mama taught me better than to talk politics.)

A tip of the hat: I respect your convictions and envy your way with words.

dcb

[Subie59]

Boxerfanatic: you have your opinion and that's all it is. The majority of Americans disagree with you. The vast majority of citizens in the western world certainly disagree with your extreme right-wing opinions. You are entitled to your opinions, we are entitled to our opinions.
Me thinks that the right wing is extremely frustrated because their power base has fallen apart and continues to disintegrate as the extreme right wingers (read Glenn Beck and others like him) continue to insult the intelligence of others.
And yes, a certain amount of this right wing "protest" is racist driven. No question about it.

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by dcarrb

The thing is, in a nation of 300+ million souls, it ain't all about you. Or me.

(Sheesh, my mama taught me better than to talk politics.)

A tip of the hat: I respect your convictions and envy your way with words.

dcb

But, don't you see... that is the ENTIRE POINT.

FREEDOM

I do what is best and responsible for me to do, you do what is best and responsible for YOU to do....

x 300 million. Ideally times 6-7 billion.

I have never ever said that what is best for me, is best for everyone else. I have said that the government doesn't know what is best for anyone but the government.

Any bureaucracy, governments perhaps most of all, try to fit everyone into the same policy box.

FREEDOM tries to make sure people AREN'T put in boxes, and they do for themselves, and interact with each other on their own terms, within the bounds of the commonly accepted laws, passed by representative servants of those people.



(man, I feel like Brian from Monty Python's Life of Brian. I keep saying "you are all different, you can do things for yourselves, you are all individuals."

and people keep responding "No, I'm not.", and "Not me.")

[BoxerFanatic]

Originally Posted by Subie59

Boxerfanatic: you have your opinion and that's all it is. The majority of Americans disagree with you. The vast majority of citizens in the western world certainly disagree with your extreme right-wing opinions. You are entitled to your opinions, we are entitled to our opinions.
Me thinks that the right wing is extremely frustrated because their power base has fallen apart and continues to disintegrate as the extreme right wingers (read Glenn Beck and others like him) continue to insult the intelligence of others.
And yes, a certain amount of this right wing "protest" is racist driven. No question about it.

I have never said it is more than my opinion, except where I cite the US Constitution, and cite actual FACTS that back up my opinion.

You don't speak for the vast majority of citizens... so why don't we stick to speaking for ourselves, huh?

This has very little to do with "power politics" other than the fact that I don't like the trend of surrendering freedom and liberty at the altar of central planning and management. I NEVER WILL ABIDE THAT. EVER.

It isn't my job to defend Glenn Beck, but in the fact that he sounds pretty similar to me, where exactly has people's intelligence been insulted by him or by me?

And I defy you to name ONE INSTANCE of my commentary being racist.

Frankly that is an offensive, slanderous accusation. You have called me a right winger. I am a conservative. that is fine.

But I am no racist, and that accusation is defamatory, slanderous, and vile.

I have not insulted ANYONE's intelligence, yet by association you have insulted ME by incinuating racism where there is none.

You had better be able to specifically refer to a specific instance of racism, and PROVE that your previous comment was not a blanket statement. Otherwise you are making unfounded ad-hominem, un-based attacks on people who have different opinions than you. Why should I listen to any other word you have to say after that?

[lhopp77]

Read about bill HR 45 that has been introduced and attempts being made to pass it under the radar. Scary as hell for everyone--do you far lefters agree with this type complete loss of freedom, individual rights and invasion of privacy??

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...c111FO1LjL:b0:

Lee

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by Subie59

Boxerfanatic: you have your opinion and that's all it is. The majority of Americans disagree with you. The vast majority of citizens in the western world certainly disagree with your extreme right-wing opinions. You are entitled to your opinions, we are entitled to our opinions.
Me thinks that the right wing is extremely frustrated because their power base has fallen apart and continues to disintegrate as the extreme right wingers (read Glenn Beck and others like him) continue to insult the intelligence of others.
And yes, a certain amount of this right wing "protest" is racist driven. No question about it.

Apparently you are not keeping up with current polls on approval/disapproval of Obamanation.

Democrats 83.8 percent Approve
11.9 percent Disapprove

Rebublicans 17 percent Approve
79 percent Disapprove

Independents 47 percent Approve
48.5 percent Disapprove

If you look at history at this point in a Presidents term you will even find that Obamanation's ratings are lower than Bush's were at this point.

Lee

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

Read about bill HR 45 that has been introduced and attempts being made to pass it under the radar. Scary as hell for everyone--do you far lefters agree with this type complete loss of freedom, individual rights and invasion of privacy??

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...c111FO1LjL:b0:

Lee

NO comments from you Obama supporters that also own guns??????????????

Lee

[BoxerFanatic]

I read a little about HR45 a couple months ago. It is not good at all.

More regulation of the people who abide by the law, in the vain hopes of ancillary impact on the people who ignore the law anyway.
More loss of freedom for the righteous, responsible, moral, ethical, and law-abiding.
More unintended consequence of fewer people being able to, and dis-incentivized to rightfully defend themselves,
and thus more incentive for criminals to use firearms against the unarmed who pose little challenge to attack.
Further eroding of any on-scene deterrent against violence.
Further eroding of the people's second amendment rights.

It comes down to this. Do you want to be controlled, or do you want to be free to control yourself?

You can read the comments in this and other threads in this forum, and you can see who espouses freedom, and who equivocates, and seems to continually either rationalize, justify, or waver on government control of the citizenry.

[lhopp77]

Even if this is not a true letter written sent to someone it has some very strong and good points.


A letter from a woman in Arizona . She writes an open letter to our nation's leadership:


"I am a home grown American citizen, 53, registered Democrat all my life. Before the last presidential election I registered as a Republican because I no longer felt the Democratic Party represents my views or works to pursue issues important to me. Now I no longer feel the Republican Party represents my views or works to pursue issues important to me. The fact is I no longer feel any political party or representative in Washington represents my views or works to pursue the issues important to me. Instead, we are burdened with Congressional Dukes and Duchesses who think they know better than the citizens they are supposed to represent.
There must be someone. Please tell me who you are. Please stand up and tell me that you are there and that you're willing to fight for our Constitution as it was written. Please stand up now.
You might ask yourself what my views and issues are that I would feel so horribly disenfranchised by both major political parties. What kind of nut-job am I? Well, these briefly are the views and issues for which I seek representation:

One, illegal immigration. I want you to stop coddling illegal immigrants and secure our borders. Close the underground tunnels.. Stop the violence and the trafficking in drugs and people. No amnesty, not again. Been there, done that, no resolution. P.S., I'm not a racist. This is not to be confused with legal immigration.


Two, the STIMULUS bill. I want it repealed and I want no further funding supplied to it. We told you No, but you did it anyway. I want the remaining unfunded 95% repealed. Freeze, repeal.


Three: Czars. I want the circumvention of our constitutional checks and balances stopped immediately. Fire the czars. No more czars. Government officials answer to the process, not to the president. Stop trampling on our Constitution, and honor it.


Four, cap and trade. The debate on global warming is not over. There are many conflicting opinions and it is too soon for this radical legislation. Quit throwing our nation into politically-correct quicksand.


Five, universal healthcare. I will not be rushed into another expensive decision that will burden me, my children, and grandchildren. Don't you dare try to pass this in the middle of the night without even reading it. Slow down! Fix only what is broken -- we have the best health care system in the world -- and test any new program in one or two states first.


Six, growing government control. I want states rights and sovereignty fully restored. I want less government in my life, not more. More is not better! Shrink it down. Mind your own business. You have enough to take care of with your real [Constitutional] obligations. Why don't you start there.


Seven, ACORN. I do not want ACORN and its affiliates in charge of our 2010 census. I want them investigated. I also do not want mandatory escrow fees contributed to them every time on every real estate deal that closes -- how did they pull that one off? Stop the funding to ACORN and its affiliates pending impartial audits and investigations. I do not trust them with taking the census with our taxpayer money. I don't trust them with any of our taxpayer money. Face up to the allegations against them and get it resolved before taxpayers get any more involved with them. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, hello. Stop protecting your political buddies. You work for us, the people. Investigate.


Eight, redistribution of wealth. No, no, no. I work for my money. It is mine. I have always worked for people with more money than I have because they gave me jobs -- and that is the only redistribution of wealth that I will support.. I never got a job from a poor person! Why do you want me to hate my employers? And what do you have against shareholders making a profit?


Nine, charitable contributions. Although I never got a job from a poor person, I have helped many in need. Charity belongs in our local communities, where we know our needs best and can use our local talent and our local resources. Butt out, please. We want to do it ourselves.


Ten, corporate bailouts. Knock it off. Every company must sink or swim like the rest of us. If there are hard times ahead, we'll be better off just getting into it and letting the strong survive. Quick and painful. (Have you ever ripped off a Band-Aid?) We will pull together. Great things happen in America under great hardship. Give us the chance to innovate. We cannot disappoint you more than you have disappointed us.


Eleven, transparency and accountability. How about it? No, really, how about it? Let's have it. Let's say we give the buzzwords a rest and have some straight honest talk.. Please stop trying to manipulate and appease me with clever wording.. I am not the idiot you obviously take me for. Stop sneaking around and meeting in back rooms making deals with your friends. It will only be a prelude to your criminal investigation. Stop hiding things from me.


Twelve, unprecedented quick spending. Stop it now.
Take a breath. Listen to the people. Slow down and get some input from nonpoliticians and experts on the subject. Stop making everything an emergency. Stop speed-reading our bills into law. I am not an activist.. I am not a community organizer. Nor am I a terrorist, a militant or a violent person. I am a parent and a grandparent. I work. I'm busy. I am busy, and I am tired. I thought we elected competent people to take care of the business of government so that we could work, raise our families, pay our bills, have a little recreation, complain about taxes, endure our hardships, pursue our personal goals, cut our lawn, wash our cars on the weekends and be responsible contributing members of society and teach our children to be the same all while living in the home of the free and land of the brave.


I entrusted you with upholding the Constitution. I believed in the checks and balances to keep from getting far off course. What happened? You are very far off course. Do you really think I find humor in the hiring of a speed reader to unintelligently ramble all through a bill that you signed into law without knowing what it contained? I do not.
It is a mockery of the responsibility I have entrusted to you. It is a slap in the face. I am not laughing at your arrogance. Why is it that I feel as if you would not trust me to make a single decision about my own life and how I would live it but you should expect that I should trust you with the debt that you have laid on all of us and our children. We did not want the TARP bill. We said no. We would repeal it if we could. I am sure that we still cannot. There is needless urgency and recklessness in all of your recent spending of our tax dollars.


From my perspective, it seems that all of you have gone insane. I also know that I am far from alone in these feelings. Do you honestly feel that your current pursuits have merit to patriotic Americans? We want it to stop. We want to put the brakes on everything that is being rushed by us and forced upon us. We want our voice back. You have forced us to put our lives on hold to straighten out the mess that you are making. We will have to give up our vacations, our time spent with our children, any relaxation time we may have had and money we cannot afford to spend on bringing our concerns to Washington . Our president often knows all the right buzzwords like unsustainable. Well, no kidding. How many tens of thousands of dollars did the focus group cost to come up with that word? We don't want your overpriced words. Stop treating us like we're morons.


We want all of you to stop focusing on your reelection and do the job we want done, not the job you want done or the job your party wants done. You work for us and at this rate I guarantee you not for long because we are coming. We will be heard and we will be represented.. You think we're so busy with our lives that we will never come for you? We are the formerly silent majority, all of us who quietly work, pay taxes, obey the law, vote, save money, keep our noses to the grindstone... and we are now looking at you.
You have awakened us, the patriotic freedom spirit so strong and so powerful that it had been sleeping too long. You have pushed us too far. Our numbers are great. They may surprise you. For every one of us who will be there, there will be hundreds more that could not come. Unlike you, we have their trust. We will represent them honestly, rest assured. They will be at the polls on voting day to usher you out of office.
We have cancelled vacations. We will use our last few dollars saved. We will find the representation among us and a grassroots campaign will flourish. We didn't ask for this fight. But the gloves are coming off. We do not come in violence, but we are angry. You will represent us or you will be replaced with someone who will. There are candidates among us who will rise like a Phoenix from the ashes that you have made of our constitution.


Democrat, Republican, independent, libertarian. Understand this. We don't care. Political parties are meaningless to us Patriotic Americans are willing to do right by us and our Constitution, and that is all that matters to us now. We are going to fire all of you who abuse power and seek more. It is not your power. It is ours and we want it back. We entrusted you with it and you abused it. You are dishonorable. You are dishonest. As Americans we are ashamed of you. You have brought shame to us. If you are not representing the wants and needs of your constituency loudly and consistently, in spite of the objections of your party, you will be fired. Did you hear? We no longer care about your political parties. You need to be loyal to us, not to them.. Because we will get you fired and they will not save you.
If you do or can represent me, my issues, my views, please stand up. Make your identity known. You need to make some noise about it. Speak up. I need to know who you are. If you do not speak up, you will be herded out with the rest of the sheep and we will replace the whole damn congress if need be one by one. We are coming. Are we coming for you? Who do you represent? What do you represent? Listen. Because we are coming. We the people are coming."


Lee