Individual Throttle Bodies and Improved Airflow - Page 13

dynomatt · #**181** 02-07-2010, 01:13 AM

Which code did you use to get it going?

Have you read this?

http://www.profblairandassociates.co...mouth_Sept.pdf

Dessertrunner · #**182** 02-07-2010, 01:38 AM

Matt its straight forwrd loand the program then run key program, use that info to enter not picture 2.

The bottom of this image would be the injector manifold.
Tony

SilverSpear · #**183** 02-07-2010, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynomatt

Which code did you use to get it going?

Have you read this?

http://www.profblairandassociates.co...mouth_Sept.pdf

Matt, the prog is tricky to install. I had to install and remove three times until it worked. Read the .DOC file for instructions.

Dessertrunner · #**184** 02-07-2010, 02:02 AM

Okay the last throttle posted was the sandwich type this is were I am up to with the roller design. To say it been a pain in the a__ is a understatement. They are designed to replace the existing manifold with out having the change any other part. Have been costing them up and plan to built a couple at once.
Tony

SilverSpear · #**185** 02-07-2010, 02:34 AM

Out of curiosity Tony, what ballpark figure do these cost to fab?

BTW, Maaaaaaaan your Good!

Dessertrunner · #**186** 02-07-2010, 03:10 AM

I am guessing they will be 2k Australian for the both. My plan is to take a car to the dyno do a run then change to the rollers then dyno again. Then change the exhaust. The idea is to see how big a bang for the buck is possiable.
Tony

subbieatnz · #**187** 02-07-2010, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

I am guessing they will be 2k Australian for the both. My plan is to take a car to the dyno do a run then change to the rollers then dyno again. Then change the exhaust. The idea is to see how big a bang for the buck is possiable.
Tony

Thats pretty cool. Ive thought rollers would be pretty cool to have on the EG33.
I didnt know about roller verson till I saw those ones that were made to go on a WRX STI in the states a year or so ago.
Would these roller ones be able to work with a turbo application on the EG33?

Thanks

svxistentialist · #**188** 02-07-2010, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSpear

Tony, I recommend you talk to this guy HERE, I think he has an experience with the EG33.

Danny

PM'd you.

Joe

svxistentialist · #**189** 02-07-2010, 05:56 AM

Tony

Without departing too far from your original post which regards the change of race rules, can I pose a question?

As a motorcycle rider I'm familiar with a higher level of engine development. The top sports bikes rev to usually at least 12.5k and very often to 14k these days. These engines are race derived and it is usual in race situations to ride them "flat out" on the cam all day using the sometimes peaky power delivery.

Because of this high rev high power capability they also have something else in common, and Harvey I'm talking generally about 4 cylinders here. In relative terms they are low on torque and what torque they do deliver is quite high in the rev range.

So my question on this is whether this challenge, this search for a high revving NA engine for the SVX will deliver higher horsepower at the expense of effective torque delivery for cars used primarily on road?

Joe

RallyBob · #**190** 02-07-2010, 10:28 AM

I'm in agreement about diminishing returns on high rpm mods for street use. I think Jack's engine is right on the edge of what is streetable (w/ manual trans). Torque is still as good or better than stock, but mid-high rpms are where the engine shines. If the cams and headwork as well as ITB's start to favor only high rpm power then we will begin to see a big drop in not only the low end power/torque but also the tractibility. Of course for racing only this is not a concern, as long as the gear ratios are suitable.

Just curious, but have you driven roller TB's in a street application? They tend to be 'all or nothing'....transitionally they are worse for driveability than typical blade throttle plates. Part throttle airflow is very turbulent and they really only shine at higher rpms. Just saying they might not be ideal for any engine run at part throttle loads and at lower rpms. I drove a BDA Cosworth with roller TB's and it was horrid at cruising speeds. Hard to modulate. At full throttle it was glorious however!

Dessertrunner · #**191** 02-07-2010, 12:29 PM

Joe & Bob,
The main cars that Matt and I are interested in are our race cars not the road ones. So the issues of low end torque is less of a concern but will take it on board.
Bob that's is interesting I will look into it a bit more. Building them for the race engine is the plan. I may have to redesign the intake roller to cover low end speed. I have some ideas that my help.

Have a great day.
Tony

svxistentialist · #**192** 02-07-2010, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RallyBob

I'm in agreement about diminishing returns on high rpm mods for street use. I think Jack's engine is right on the edge of what is streetable (w/ manual trans). Torque is still as good or better than stock, but mid-high rpms are where the engine shines. If the cams and headwork as well as ITB's start to favor only high rpm power then we will begin to see a big drop in not only the low end power/torque but also the tractibility. Of course for racing only this is not a concern, as long as the gear ratios are suitable.

Just curious, but have you driven roller TB's in a street application? They tend to be 'all or nothing'....transitionally they are worse for driveability than typical blade throttle plates. Part throttle airflow is very turbulent and they really only shine at higher rpms. Just saying they might not be ideal for any engine run at part throttle loads and at lower rpms. I drove a BDA Cosworth with roller TB's and it was horrid at cruising speeds. Hard to modulate. At full throttle it was glorious however!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Joe & Bob,
The main cars that Matt and I are interested in are our race cars not the road ones. So the issues of low end torque is less of a concern but will take it on board.
Bob that's is interesting I will look into it a bit more. Building them for the race engine is the plan. I may have to redesign the intake roller to cover low end speed. I have some ideas that my help.

Have a great day.
Tony

Thanks for the replies lads. Yeah Tony, I know youse guys are going racing and what you are developing will be of great interest to members anyway, so I'm delighted with the ideas and progress.

Bob at least part of the motive for my question was cost benefit ratio. Plus from experience with the bikes an engine that can deliver tons of torque at mid revs out of a bend is an easier machine to drive fast.

I have a 4WS car with an Eaton blower installed and the next stage is to add water injection in order to up the boost. Safely. By nature the Roots blower gives an instant hit, but at higher revs there are limitations.

I'm now toying with the idea of adding a single turbo and blowing sequentially through the Roots. Setting each compressor at round 9 lbs will mean the Roots will never get out of breath and the compound boost could be 20 lbs or so. I don't see any major hurdles to cross, but I'm going to do the Maths first to be sure design parameters are OK.

No doubt it would be too modified to qualify for race rules like Tony is planning, but I'd be hoping it would be a nice street drive with enough power to live up to the looks.

Joe

dynomatt · #**193** 02-07-2010, 06:45 PM

Joe,

Most bikes you would see also have elliptical throttle quadrants. This recognises the all or nothing problem with most ITB setups and attempts to modulate. That would be easy enough to replicate in a road car.

A few performance oriented cars have ITB setups for road cars. All have plenums, which allows to get back some of the street car functions (vacuum sources etc.).

For motorsport...bring it on.

On the torque issue, torque was one of the biggest things I was challenged with when considering the SVX. All of my competitors will be running turbocharged 2l engines that have 500-750nm of torque. I'm anticipating the SVX will only have 250-300nm. That translates to needing to be driving better to compensate. If you don't have the torque to get you out of a tight spot, you need to enter the tights spot way more committed...full revs...maximum attack!

Then it doesn't matter!

Cheers,
Matt

svxistentialist · #**194** 02-07-2010, 07:10 PM

That sounds like the only way to race Matt!!

Joe

Dessertrunner · #**195** 02-12-2010, 04:18 PM

Just meet up with Matt and he was telling me how well the simlators work. While I was driving home it got me thinking. There are a few suggestion about things to do to the heads. What we need to do is run these suggestions on the simulator to work out what gives the biggeest bang for our buck.
Here is were my heads at.
Pick a maxium revs say 8k, base engine standard except for the following.
- Run test on standard valve higher lift such as Matt and others have.
- Less lift but bigger valves such as Bob has suggested.
- Change from stanard exhaust then run again.
(These are just suggestions)

As Adam has said a number of times need to run the numbers. After there is some basic data start working on cams. If we have a volunteer to be the modeller so we are always working on the same basic assumptions.

What I am trying to find is the point of dimishing returns so we can guide people as to whats best to do to get more power.

What power increase will I get if I rebuild the exhaust with no Cat's, extractor? Get my point no one can give me a number.

As usal all comments and opinion welcome, lets put some meat on the bones.
Tony