Turbocharged SVX Completion Thread

[cdigerlando]

Where did you get the poly engine mounts? Good luck this weekend.

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by Phast SVX

car is parked until 2v6 gets here., due to close to zero degrees of advance at 8psi....so no videos obviously

i got a gtech from rob to use to test when it does

my new reducer came, its in
stay tuned,
phil

Hi Phil

I have been busy at work and not able to follow the boards, but I am pleased to see your progress with this boost. Good stuff man!

A question for you on fuel. Have you tried to use any higher grade gas than standard?

The reason I ask this is I have noticed that this new fuel, E85 they call it over here [biofuel] has a much higher ron rating than bog standard unleaded. I would be awfully interested to hear if you filled her up with a tank of that stuff, and maybe added a bottle or two of Octane Boost additive as well, then maybe your ECU would detect an awful lot less cylinder knock, and allow you to run higher revs and give some real power.

Have you tried that?

Joe

[Pure_Insanity8]

E85 does have a higher octane rating than "street" gas, so it would help with knock. Only problem is that the extra amount that would need to be injected may pose a problem with the stock injectors. I mean they are already a bit stressed with the RRFPR Phil has now in order to supply enough fuel for the boost... E85 would make it even harder to keep up with the fuel requirements.

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by Pure_Insanity8

E85 does have a higher octane rating than "street" gas, so it would help with knock. Only problem is that the extra amount that would need to be injected may pose a problem with the stock injectors. I mean they are already a bit stressed with the RRFPR Phil has now in order to supply enough fuel for the boost... E85 would make it even harder to keep up with the fuel requirements.

I don't quite understand what is behind your statement, or what you mean by it.

Are you saying that the injectors would have to flow more E85 for the same power than the equivalent amount of petrol[gas]? Does E85 have less energy per volume than petrol?

Or is it the case that at current boost levels he has already surpassed the point where the injectors he is using have maxed out on duty cycle?

Joe

[Phast SVX]

Hey Joe,

Unfortunatly yes, while E85 has an octane rating of 105 and is redily available here in wisconsin, it dosnt burn anywhere near as efficenct as gasoline. Ive heard anywhere from 60-75% of e per volume compared to gasoline.So in lamens terms you need roughly30% more fuel then if you were running on gasoline. Also, since its primarily alcohol all the yellow metals and rubber fuel lines would need to be changed out. But you are correct in your thinking.

But to answer your second question, i hope to run it sometime in the future, maybe not near, but i would make a great deal more power on E85 then on gasoline, especially with a boosted engine. Not to mention it sells for 2.29 a gallon up here in wisconsin. E85 increases tensile pressures fairly consistently on the piston and crank due to its burning charecteristics.
take care,
phil

[nsm484]

Phast SVX, If you ever get any videos, Let me know, I'd be willing to host them
on my personal website. I'd have no problem with that

Plus I have Unlimited Transfer, so every SVX Network Member could download to their hearts content

[svxistentialist]

Originally Posted by Phast SVX

Hey Joe,

Unfortunatly yes, while E85 has an octane rating of 105 and is redily available here in wisconsin, it dosnt burn anywhere near as efficenct as gasoline. Ive heard anywhere from 60-75% of e per volume compared to gasoline.So in lamens terms you need roughly30% more fuel then if you were running on gasoline. Also, since its primarily alcohol all the yellow metals and rubber fuel lines would need to be changed out. But you are correct in your thinking.

But to answer your second question, i hope to run it sometime in the future, maybe not near, but i would make a great deal more power on E85 then on gasoline, especially with a boosted engine. Not to mention it sells for 2.29 a gallon up here in wisconsin. E85 increases tensile pressures fairly consistently on the piston and crank due to its burning charecteristics.
take care,
phil

Thanks for elucidating that for me Phil.

I know from checking out before that Liquefied Petroleum Gas has 12% less energy per unit volume than petrol. Yet, I see many comparatives being used where the writer says it is 20 to 30 percent less efficient than petrol. There could be additional parasitic losses for it in the transfer valves and so on, but I do feel that people overstate power losses in relation to LPG use in vehicles.

With the E85, there will be no other additional losses of power than there would be with the gasoline, they are both ingested into the chambers via the same process, so efficiencies should be roughly equivalent other than the relevant energy efficiencies.

I'll do a little checking up on this to see what the official specific energy figures might be.

As the fuel is renewable, I see this one could be the way of the future. Plus, it will be much more amenable to boosting, which has gotta be a good bonus for us petrol heads.

Or should we be called alcohol heads if we burn E85?

Joe

[Phast SVX]

Originally Posted by svxistentialist

Thanks for elucidating that for me Phil.

I know from checking out before that Liquefied Petroleum Gas has 12% less energy per unit volume than petrol. Yet, I see many comparatives being used where the writer says it is 20 to 30 percent less efficient than petrol. There could be additional parasitic losses for it in the transfer valves and so on, but I do feel that people overstate power losses in relation to LPG use in vehicles.

With the E85, there will be no other additional losses of power than there would be with the gasoline, they are both ingested into the chambers via the same process, so efficiencies should be roughly equivalent other than the relevant energy efficiencies.

I'll do a little checking up on this to see what the official specific energy figures might be.

As the fuel is renewable, I see this one could be the way of the future. Plus, it will be much more amenable to boosting, which has gotta be a good bonus for us petrol heads.

Or should we be called alcohol heads if we burn E85?

Joe

Well maybe we can be both, but for differnt reasons (you know i have a lot of irish in me after all)

Maybe if i explain this in terms of actual combustion with air it will make better sense. Stoichometric mxiture with gasoline/petrol occurs at 14.69 parts air to 1 fuel, and RBT(Rich best tourqe) where the cooling on the combustion chamber by excess fuel and the best possible flame speed for tourqe creation occurs is typically 11.5-12.7 parts air to 1 part fuel. Switching to E85 ethynol alch, to obtain RBT at optimal flame speed we would be looking for somewhere around 9 parts air to every 1 part fuel. This explains the lower fuel efficincy of E85 flex fuel veheicles while running E85. These flexfuel vehicles have gas analyzers that will sense the amount of ethynol present in the compbustion chamber and allow for your vehicle to alter is air fuel accordingly to run either regular or ethynol.
phil

[oab_au]

Phil, what is the % of Ethanol in the petrol, 15%?

Harvey.

[Chiketkd]

Originally Posted by oab_au

Phil, what is the % of Ethanol in the petrol, 15%?

Harvey.

Harv,

E85 is an alcohol fuel mixture of 85% ethanol & 15% gasoline (by volume).

Chike

[Pure_Insanity8]

Good job on the more in depth description there, Phil.

Also, I'm not sure if it is in all of the cintiguous U.S. states yet, but I know it is a decent percent of them... that our standard gasoline is already a 10% ethanol mix. It is likely that number will jump to 20% in the near future nation wide.

I can't recall exact figures (and I can't find my booklet of fuel facts), but I remember ethanol being around 85-90,000 BTUs/pound where as 100% conventional gasoline has somewhere around 110,000 BTUs/pound... hence ethanol requiring more physical volume of fuel to achieve the same energy output of gasoline. Anyone who knows the exact numbers, feel free to chime in.

Phil, about the AFRs you stated... is that why maximum power is normally made at around 12.8:1? Just due to being at the high end for an optimal burn, and the lower end for fuel efficiency?

[svxistentialist]

Poking around, I found this page on Wikipedia which has tons and tons of info on the subject:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

At the very bottom of the page is a link to a guy Larry at NASIOC who has been using the fuel in his WRX for two years with little or no problems. He DID put in the 255l/h Walbro, and he also put in STi 550 injectors to cope with the higher flow rates required. See:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

Interestingly, he notes that NA cars using the mix can achieve 5% more power on ethanol mix, but that turbo cars will probably give more extra power than this. Considering he is reporting only a 1 mpg drop in consumption [from 24 to 23] in his mileage, and he has fitted a bigger turbo than standard, it seems to me this fuel mix is the way to go if we are using blown engines.

Has anybody any hard info as to whether our OBD1 cars have suitable fuel lines and rubber gaskets and so on to cope with ethanol?

Joe

[longassname]

It is my understanding that since the 80's auto manufacturers have been required to make vehicles ethanol compatible. Not tuned to and actually able to run high concentrations of ethanol but mechanically and chemically compatible. This came about as a result of the fuel shortage in the late 70's when ethanol and what not was mixed in with the gasoline despite components not being compatible.


The fuel injection hose sold at the auto parts stores now is all multi fuel compatible. I believe the dayco hose actually says so. I don't think the gates hose does but it is. On a completely unrelated side note the material composition of the gates belts was improved recently too. Gates belts stocked this year should be better than gates belts stocked last year.

One the note of performance improvements with ethanol if accompanied by propper tuning: The SVX should see exceptional performance improvements when run on ethanol instead of gasoline. There are a couple reasons to expect this. The burning characteristics ie the 105 octane are substantially better for the relatively high for unleaded fuel 10 to 1 compression ratio the svx uses. In addition the increased mass of the fuel charge substantially improves cooling of the combustion chamber which of course is also particularly beneficial for compression ratio.

To the point of performance improvements for an svx with forced induction: The burning characteristics indicated by the higher octane rating and the increased fuel charge mass and combustion chamber cooling are of course awesome for the increased compression of forced induction. With e85 instead of wanting to rebuild the engine to lower the compression to keep the dynamic compression within a reasonable range to work with unleaded gasoline we will be happy we have the 10 to 1 compression which offers higher thermal efficiency.

In short E85 should prove to be an awesome fuel for the SVX and the handfull of SVX's which are now tearing around with forced induction are about to get a lot faster.

[SVXRide]

Originally Posted by longassname

It is my understanding that since the 80's auto manufacturers have been required to make vehicles ethanol compatible. Not tuned to and actually able to run high concentrations of ethanol but mechanically and chemically compatible. This came about as a result of the fuel shortage in the late 70's when ethanol and what not was mixed in with the gasoline despite components not being compatible.


The fuel injection hose sold at the auto parts stores now is all multi fuel compatible. I believe the dayco hose actually says so. I don't think the gates hose does but it is. On a completely unrelated side note the material composition of the gates belts was improved recently too. Gates belts stocked this year should be better than gates belts stocked last year.

One the note of performance improvements with ethanol if accompanied by propper tuning: The SVX should see exceptional performance improvements when run on ethanol instead of gasoline. There are a couple reasons to expect this. The burning characteristics ie the 105 octane are substantially better for the relatively high for unleaded fuel 10 to 1 compression ratio the svx uses. In addition the increased mass of the fuel charge substantially improves cooling of the combustion chamber which of course is also particularly beneficial for compression ratio.

To the point of performance improvements for an svx with forced induction: The burning characteristics indicated by the higher octane rating and the increased fuel charge mass and combustion chamber cooling are of course awesome for the increased compression of forced induction. With e85 instead of wanting to rebuild the engine to lower the compression to keep the dynamic compression within a reasonable range to work with unleaded gasoline we will be happy we have the 10 to 1 compression which offers higher thermal efficiency.

In short E85 should prove to be an awesome fuel for the SVX and the handfull of SVX's which are now tearing around with forced induction are about to get a lot faster.

I'm with Michael on this....all the gasoline in Maryland - to my knowledge - has been mixed with ethanol for over a year. E85 is just the next logical step. It is also my understanding that all fuel system parts you can buy now are compatible.
-Bill

[Phast SVX]

2v6 gasoline is in the car and running well. I have more good news to report. The car is now a blur, and with the added timing i accidently squelled the tires letting the clutch out too fast at 2ish'k. Its really hard to see what AFRS are at but they are safe, becuase everytime i get a good look at them i am already going 80 mph. Video will be coming soon.
phil