Building a 10,000 rpm NA engine. - Page 38

Dessertrunner · #**556** 04-09-2013, 07:49 PM

Well we have some progress, after years of trying to sort out the individual throttles I have stepped back and purchased a set of BMW M3. Go to say they look great, also have the advantage that the ID is 50mm as opposed to the SVX injector manifold of 44mm. So I have made up the first adapter plate but I want to try a different design so the injector is at a better angle in relation to the back of the valves.
Also as this engine is for the mid engine project, I plan to do the throttle by electric. I purchased the gas peddle from a M3 and the throttle actuator, in addition got a controller that should run all the smarts between the two and make it work.

The photo is of the first draft of the mounting plate. What I will do is once its finished if any one wants to make one I can supply the dxf.

Harvey you will have to change the intake on you computer simulation. Ram pipe options are 50mm, 100mm, 150mm & 220mm so we need to figure out which is best.

Keep well all.
Tony

SVXRide · #**557** 04-10-2013, 10:30 AM

Sandals in the machine shop!

Watch those toes, Tony!

Cheers,
Bill

neverLift · #**558** 04-12-2013, 10:19 AM

On a Volks forum a gentleman is considering putting these Ducati ITBs on an EG33. Not sure if its relevant to this motor. No idea if they were ever actually made to work either. But they do look cool.

Quote:

Here are those Ducati TB's I have. I ended up with 8 just in case I grow two extra cylinders. They are 52mm (ouch!). And were initially about $100 a pair/eBay. But strangly when I started to buy these.. I swear the prices started to sky rocket. I think the individual sellers thought there was a run on them. A few sets I bought for less than $100. now they are $150 and up. Since they are contained in a filtered fresh air box on the bike.. the used ones always look new..

img]http://i157.photobucket.com/albums/t62/micro-image/prep/tb-bottomMedium.jpg[/img]

To big? YOU BET. But that's all part of the TB love fest. You lose all reasoning. I've said in the past that I'm not trying to increase performance by moving to ITBs. Only to lose some serious weight (factory manifold components are insanely heavy). And to alter the engine's appearance to look more like a old-school bug with tri-Weber's :smile:

This is a to-scale photo. It's only slightly larger than the OEM intake port.. But the factory ports are already huge.. At least in this sense, it doesn't seem to outrageous

And of course for the full NUT-SO effect.. You got to have "shower injectors"! There is nothing like having fuel at 35Lbs+ on the atmosphere side of your throttle plates to warm a cold winter's night? Of course I would keep the Subee mid-manifold and use the factory injectors.. But they are a conversation piece.

If I can get ITBs installed and working.. I would just hope I don't end up with (much) less usable power. Which would be way too easy to do. Subaru obviously put some serious $ and thought into the factory intake. And all "I" can really do is seriously jack it up. However I'm even willing to lose up ~20hp to get the appearance and weight off. So I'm trying to be realistic.

oab_au · #**559** 04-12-2013, 06:49 PM

Not really designed for low rpm operation, 6000rpm up.

Harvey.

Dessertrunner · #**560** 04-12-2013, 11:10 PM

They are very nice looking units. Any idea what size in Litre the bike engine was?
Tony

neverLift · #**561** 04-13-2013, 06:25 PM

Ducati 999cc. 90* V-Twin, max power at 9750 rpm, desmodronic valvetrain.

cheers
-Evan

Dessertrunner · #**562** 04-15-2013, 10:09 PM

Evan,
Do you have a link to the VW web site?

Also was reading a bit on a ECU forum this morning and they suggested that a turbo engine by default has more oxygen in the chamber and there for has a better burn as a result.

This leads me to the question why does higher compression give more power???? Anyone know.
Tony

Tireiron · #**563** 04-15-2013, 10:19 PM

Higher compression gives increased cylinder pressure, which results in more force pushing the piston back down on combustion.

Forced induction also increases cylinder pressure resulting in more force pushing the piston down on combustion. However with forced induction there is an increased quantity of air so there has to be more fuel to compensate giving even more force on the piston after combustion.

Dessertrunner · #**564** 04-15-2013, 10:32 PM

Accept the turbo point,
but not the NA, it takes more energy to compress the cylinder so not sure you suddenly get more back just from that point. I maybe wrong but I think there is more to it.

Tony

SVXRide · #**565** 04-16-2013, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Accept the turbo point,
but not the NA, it takes more energy to compress the cylinder so not sure you suddenly get more back just from that point. I maybe wrong but I think there is more to it.

Tony

Tony,

Think of it as more bang for your buck. You're compressing the air in the mixture more, so you get a more powerful explosion from the air-fuel mixture. The increase in the force generated by the more powerful explosion far outweighs the addition energy needed to compress the mixture. Note: You do need to be mindful of not getting to the spontaneous combustion pressure!

Cheers,
Bill

Dessertrunner · #**566** 04-16-2013, 02:33 PM

Thanks Bill, got to wonder if its also a better explosion as well.

Here is the design for the adapter plate to fit the BMW throttle so they can shoot the fuel direct to the back of the valves.
Tony

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Assembly.pdf

SVXRide · #**567** 04-16-2013, 07:00 PM

Tony,

It is indeed a better explosion! It is a much more efficient use of the fuel within the air-fuel mixture.

So, are you going to drop the drawing specs into your work cell and let the mill go after a hunk of 6061?

Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Thanks Bill, got to wonder if its also a better explosion as well.

Here is the design for the adapter plate to fit the BMW throttle so they can shoot the fuel direct to the back of the valves.
Tony

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Assembly.pdf

Dessertrunner · #**568** 04-16-2013, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVXRide

Tony,

So, are you going to drop the drawing specs into your work cell and let the mill go after a hunk of 6061?

Bill

That's the idea, ordered the material today, want to see if I can get them done reasonably soon.

Bazza got set up with a electric motor and VSD to run some more coolant tests, aim being to get around air build up issue, VSD should run water pump up to 11,000 rpm and if we want we can go higher still.

Part for gearbox on dyno arrives tomorrow, computers is set, we need to mod the frame and drive.

Controller to run throttles by wire should be here next week so it all seems to be coming together.
Tony

neverLift · #**569** 04-16-2013, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

Evan,
Do you have a link to the VW web site?

Also was reading a bit on a ECU forum this morning and they suggested that a turbo engine by default has more oxygen in the chamber and there for has a better burn as a result.

This leads me to the question why does higher compression give more power???? Anyone know.
Tony

Here you go.

SVXRide · #**570** 04-16-2013, 09:02 PM

Excellent!!

Cheers,
Bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dessertrunner

That's the idea, ordered the material today, want to see if I can get them done reasonably soon.

Bazza got set up with a electric motor and VSD to run some more coolant tests, aim being to get around air build up issue, VSD should run water pump up to 11,000 rpm and if we want we can go higher still.

Part for gearbox on dyno arrives tomorrow, computers is set, we need to mod the frame and drive.

Controller to run throttles by wire should be here next week so it all seems to be coming together.
Tony