Just for Electrophyllis......

[Manarius]

Even if we did stop supporting Israel, nothing around there would change. They've got the nukes, the armies, the people. I mean, come on, look how they beat the crap out of the Lebanese. The Middle East works as such: Ye who has the biggest gun rules the area. And, at this point in time, Israel's got the most guns and the biggest of them as well.

[TomsSVX]

and how do you suspect they got them??

Tom

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by lhopp77

As to Iraq--instead of getting on your high horse, why don't you check with the soldiers that are going through it and sacrificing all in some cases. What do they think?? Do THEY think we should be there?? You will find that the vast majority fully believe in what they are doing and don't want limp wristed pacifists pleading their case. THEY know why they are there as do most of us "right wingers".


Lee

Well, our military members will always support and obey the Commander in Chief. They will get their butts rightfully kicked otherwise.

But here's an excerpt about an editorial coming out in all the Military Times come monday:

"Rumsfeld has lost credibility with the uniformed leadership, with the troops, with Congress and with the public at large. His strategy has failed, and his ability to lead is compromised," the Army Times, Navy Times, Air Force Times and Marine Corps Times said in an editorial to be published on Monday.

Like a broken record.....

The republican party no longer represents you, and they haven't for years. They are like a cheating wife that is getting laid right in front of you, and you are blaming a male prostitute that rode through town six years ago.

[RSVX]

This thread was pointless before it started.

You are BOTH so set in your ways, you REFUSE to see what other side has to say and just ramble on about your own crap.

[shotgunslade]

And good ol' Max---drops his own grenade in a safe base camp. A tragic accident, but hardly the thing to brag about or use as an example of heroism.

The 2nd of the 12th Cavalry was engaged in a combat operation at the time of this incident. Max Cleland was with the Battalion Forward Command Post in heavy combat involving the attack of the 1st Cavalry Division up the valley to relieve the Marines who were besieged and surrounded at the Khe Shan Firebase. The whole surrounding area was an active combat zone (some might call the entire country of Vietnam a combat zone). (Is Iraq a combat zone?) Max, the Battalion Signal Officer, was engaged in a combat mission I personally ordered to increase the effectiveness of communications between the battalion combat forward and rear support elements: e.g. Erect a radio relay antenna on a mountain top. By the way, at one point the battalion rear elements came under enemy artillery fire so everyone was in harms way.

As they were getting off the helicopter, Max saw the grenade on the ground and he instinctively went for it. Soldiers in combat don't leave grenades lying around on the ground. Later, in the hospital, he said he thought it was his own but I doubt the concept of "ownership" went through his mind in the split seconds involved in reaching for the grenade. Nearly two decades later another soldier came forward and admitted it was actually his grenade. Does ownership of the grenade really matter? It does not.

Maury Cralle'
Battalion Executive Officer
2d/12th Cavalry Battalion
1st Air Cavalry Division
During the assault on Khe Shan

I'm back. I just couldn't let the smear against good Ol' Max lie unanswered

Lee:

So, if John Kerry should be shot for treason, what should happen to you for maliciously repeating a slander against a soldier who lost three limbs going after someone else's dropped grenade in a war zone. If that isn't an act of courage, I don't know what is? Is it honorable or brave for you to recite lies against someone who who sacrificed far more for his country than you ever did.

You are an embarassment to our armed forces.

[RSVX]

Originally Posted by shotgunslade

I'm back. I just couldn't let the smear against good Ol' Max lie unanswered

Lee:

So, if John Kerry should be shot for treason, what should happen to you for maliciously repeating a slander against a soldier who lost three limbs going after someone else's dropped grenade in a war zone. If that isn't an act of courage, I don't know what is? Is it honorable or brave for you to recite lies against someone who who sacrificed far more for his country than you ever did.

You are an embarassment to our armed forces.

Let's go ahead and add you to my statement above your post.

[lhopp77]

Originally Posted by TomsSVX

and how do you suspect they got them??

Tom

Do I detect a bit of anti-semitic feelings??

This is worth repeating:

Israel: Amazing Little Country

The Middle East has been growing date palms for centuries. The average tree is about 18-20 feet tall and yields about 38 pounds of dates a year. Israeli date trees are now yielding 400 pounds/year and are short enough to be harvested from the ground or a short ladder.

Israel the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can lay claim to the following:

The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

Most of the Windows NT and XP operating systems were developed by Microsoft-Israel.

The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel. Both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel.

The Pentium microprocessor in your computer was most likely made in Israel.

Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.

The technology for the AOL Instant Messenger, ICQ, was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

Israel has the fourth largest air force in the world (after the U.S. Russia and China). In addition to a large variety of other aircraft, Israel's air force has an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16's. This is the largest fleet of F-16 aircraft outside of the U. S.

Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.

Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.

According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security. US officials now look (finally) to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.

Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people -- as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U.S. (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).

With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and startups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world -- apart from Silicon Valley, U.S.

Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the U.S.

Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.

Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK

On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech startups.

Twenty-four % of Israel's workforce holds university degrees, ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12% hold advanced degrees.

Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews (Operation Solomon) at Risk in Ethiopia, to safety in Israel.

When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world's second elected female leader in modern times.

When the US Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day -- and saved three victims from the rubble.

Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship -- and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity (Hundreds of thousands from the former Soviet Union).

Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."

Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.

Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.

Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in US hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

Israel's Given Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside for cancer and digestive disorders.

Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure The new device is synchronized with the camera helps doctors diagnose the heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the US, over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany.With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions, Israel places first in this category as well.

A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device, produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct -- all without damaging surrounding skin or tissue.

An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California 's Mojave Desert.

All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth.

Lee

[Electrophil]

Originally Posted by shotgunslade

I'm back. I just couldn't let the smear against good Ol' Max lie unanswered

Lee:

So, if John Kerry should be shot for treason, what should happen to you for maliciously repeating a slander against a soldier who lost three limbs going after someone else's dropped grenade in a war zone. If that isn't an act of courage, I don't know what is? Is it honorable or brave for you to recite lies against someone who who sacrificed far more for his country than you ever did.

You are an embarassment to our armed forces.

What? So he didn't drop his own granade? He was trying to save someone else? But Lee implied...

Ohh... My bad. Never trust a neo-con.
Especially when they are bragging about all our engineering jobs being exported to Israel.
That's my job you are talking about neo-freak.

[lhopp77]

I think you need to read Cleland's own book about the account. HE said it was his grenade. I will admit that I have often wondered what a SIGNAL officer (NOT EVEN A COMBAT ARMS OFFICER) was doing carrying a hand grenade----that would just be an accident looking for a place to happen. Anyway, while it was in a hostile fire area, it was NOT in a combat situation. He was in a BASE CAMP and not under hostile fire.

I will drop the issue even though I have many more thoughts on the subject that most of you would not understand since you don't know the various jobs and missions of the different branches in the Army. Or the way things are looked at for the performance of various branches. Infantry, Armor, Artillery are the Combat Arms Branches. Signal and Engineer are Combat Support Branches. In case you don't know----Cleland was a Signal Officer.

Lee

[Electrophil]

I was thinking I should help the neo-cons out.

So here ya go... This'll get you started. : Neo-Con Aid

[TomsSVX]

I have stated my opinions and I have backed them up for the most part. I do not need to post here anymore because as I argue my points, your responses to multiple issues become thinner and thinner. Maybe you have seen the light and will travel down a road of an open mind?? Ah who am I kidding, your a right winger all the way <--- This face means I am kidding. I did not mean to go on the rants I did and I apologize for anything I said that was offensive to you. I do hope you can look at things with an equal balance. If you must, I have a lot of information that you might want to see that describes my point of view.

Tom

[Electrophil]

I'm just wanting to be supportive in the neo-con's time of crisis. I feel for them in their crushing loss. We should try to help them as much as possible. I've already helped a little.

Here's some more help, just giving you answers to those nagging questions -> More Neo-con support