Biggest socialist program in 40 years!

[benebob]

... Brought to you by that wonderfully conservative President. George "Red" Bush!

Aren't you glad we invested billions in companies who couldn't even get a government backed loan from a government backed bank using government money.

I guess Barack isn't the only socialist in Washington. It now lies in the hands of the Supreme Court to do the right thing. I won't hold my breath.

[svxxx26]

Don't hold back, say what you really feel!

But seriously, I've heard arguments do that effect and agree "in principle" - although on the other hand, I can agree with Bush on this too.

Since you seem pretty sure on this subject, maybe you can explain to me how letting the Big Three sink on their own is going to help US?

And please don't say because it's socialist...that means nothing to me. What does mean something the overall economy of the country. Or to be more specific, in principle a company that fails should be left to die - that's how the system works - but if the industry dictates the survival other companies (and people's jobs) is it the right thing to do?

[benebob]

Originally Posted by svxxx26

Since you seem pretty sure on this subject, maybe you can explain to me how letting the Big Three sink on their own is going to help US?

In the long run it would help as the strongest best companies would survive. This is simply putting a bandaid on a sucking chest wound. In the end the companies won't survive because they don't have the bankrupcy laws which are there to make it easier to renegotiate with creditors. The car companies argue that people won't buy cars from a bankrupt company but how many people will buy cars from a less stable company then if the company and the buyers are protected by the bankruptcy laws.

The British did the exact same thing back in the late 70s and when was the last time you could buy a MG, Triumph, Sunbeam, Roots, Rover, Hillman. They all died because they were given a blank check (with the same kind of "so called" safe guards that Bush has called for).

So what is your suggestion? Give 'me 17 billion now and then where are you going to get the extra money that is going to be needed when all these workers loose their jobs anyways as the companies downsize, outsource to mexico and fire the American workers anyways? Of course they are going to need unemployment, retraining then comes the gov't incentives to intice other businesses into the areas of these deplaced workers.

Bush's philosphy seems to be give 'em money that we don't have already rather than having the lenders do their jobs. Lend money to solvent companies. Just like Ford claims to be

[Wikedjuggalo]

I'm confused everything you post is socialist this or you don't agree with this or that. What form of government works for you? Its so easy to tell all the people associated with Gm, Chrysler, and Ford to go find other jobs o well. But what would you do in their position? Do I think they messed up? Hell yeah but we helped all the banks out even tho they messed up horribly (mostly due to Democratic pushes). We shouldn't deny helping to lower people just because of mismanagement.

Clearly we shouldn't just hand over 17 billion dollars. There are stipulations that need to be addressed before handing it over.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by Wikedjuggalo

I'm confused everything you post is socialist this or you don't agree with this or that. What form of government works for you? Its so easy to tell all the people associated with Gm, Chrysler, and Ford to go find other jobs o well. But what would you do in their position? Do I think they messed up? Hell yeah but we helped all the banks out even tho they messed up horribly (mostly due to Democratic pushes). We shouldn't deny helping to lower people just because of mismanagement.

Clearly we shouldn't just hand over 17 billion dollars. There are stipulations that need to be addressed before handing it over.

Newsflash, these people you speak of are still going to loose their jobs regardless (or a very large percentage of them will). The others will be stuck in mostly high cost of living states and be forced to take a drastic pay cut. When you have a budget based on your income and then 30% is cut you're not helping the economy when you have to declare personal bankrupcy are you?

If your so interested in helping these people out why then isn't that 17 billion going to the 5 million Americans who rely directly on the auto industry for their jobs. If I'm doing the math correctly each one would receive a $340k severence check. Don't you think that would be more beneficial then putting a dying company on life support at our expense for the next 6 months. Are you going to go out and plunk $25k on a new Chevy now? Didn't think so.

Read up on the British bailout of their auto industry and its failure. The US is following the EXACT same path

[Wikedjuggalo]

Originally Posted by benebob

Newsflash, these people you speak of are still going to loose their jobs regardless (or a very large percentage of them will). The others will be stuck in mostly high cost of living states and be forced to take a drastic pay cut. When you have a budget based on your income and then 30% is cut you're not helping the economy when you have to declare personal bankrupcy are you?

If your so interested in helping these people out why then isn't that 17 billion going to the 5 million Americans who rely directly on the auto industry for their jobs. If I'm doing the math correctly each one would receive a $340k severence check. Don't you think that would be more beneficial then putting a dying company on life support at our expense for the next 6 months. Are you going to go out and plunk $25k on a new Chevy now? Didn't think so.

Read up on the British bailout of their auto industry and its failure. The US is following the EXACT same path

You still havent answered my questions to you.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by Wikedjuggalo

You still havent answered my questions to you.

What question? I prefer a true capatialist society with a Federal Government that performs its Constitutional duty of providing for the defense of the country. So yes I believe in socialism for the military, infastructure and common health and well being of the citizens as without the second two you cannot have soldiers able to fight.

As for what would I do in their position. Well considering it isn't like they've collapsed over night I would have positioned myself to loose my job (just as I positioned myself for the current economic downturn in my business), I would have begun the process of retraining myself for a new career, I would have worked to bring my company to the highest level of efficency and productivity that I could from whatever position I held and I probably would have moved years ago to a state which was much more diverse economy wise then most of the states where the Big Three have a large workforce.

Again what help is this package going to give to the worker? Even an idiot doesn't see them walking away with $340k in benefits which is their share of that money. Either way America has lost a strong auto industry which will never return. I would just prefer the money be spent for the true role of government.

If you don't agree then go ahead burn the Constitution and set up a Socialist State of George "Red" Bush.

[svxxx26]

I have to say that you put forth a good argument Ben. Clearly the "good old days" of doing business are long gone and it's going to be a cold slap in the face for everyone. Damn but the auto workers had it pretty good for a long time. I hate to see the glory days of Detroit end but then again, I think they ended a long time ago.
I see where Obama chimed in with his support for Bush's auto bailout plan, so I suppose it's a done deal.
I love politics

[benebob]

Originally Posted by svxxx26

I have to say that you put forth a good argument Ben. Clearly the "good old days" of doing business are long gone and it's going to be a cold slap in the face for everyone. Damn but the auto workers had it pretty good for a long time. I hate to see the glory days of Detroit end but then again, I think they ended a long time ago.
I see where Obama chimed in with his support for Bush's auto bailout plan, so I suppose it's a done deal.
I love politics

Subeman90 told me about a editorial in our local paper a few weeks back so I found and read it. Basically the writer asked where the "bailout" was for the workers of the following, Packard, where it was for Studie, where it was for Cord, where it was for AMC, etc. As sypathetic as one can be for the hard working individuals working for the companies, dealers, suppliers and third parties associated saving companies who for 30 years have ignored reality is nothing more than becoming insane yourself.

Bankruptcy is the only real option. Just look how much it cost GM to kill off Oldsmobile. It took 8 years and 500 million to kill one company without the benefit of bankruptcy laws since many dealers got a huge payout because of contracts, etc. I'd say that there are at least 10 MUCH larger brands that should join Olds in any restructuring plan. In today's world that should cost a conservative 5 billion alone not to mention the 8 years it would take to accomplish. Do you want to support GM for 8 years financially while they kill off the same brands they're selling for 7 of those 8 years? Who is going to buy that Pontiac, that Saturn, that GMC, that Buick, that Saab, that Pontiac, that Hummer and that Isuzu truck line.

[Stilor]

Originally Posted by benebob

If your so interested in helping these people out why then isn't that 17 billion going to the 5 million Americans who rely directly on the auto industry for their jobs. If I'm doing the math correctly each one would receive a $340k severence check.

You are not doing math correctly.

17 000 000 000 / 5 000 000 = 3 400, not 340 000

However, I don't see why the government did not consider the same approach they took with some of the banks by engineering a merger. For example, government could've loaned money to Ford to buy assets from GM - that is, plants with workers. The question is, would Ford agree, though

[demonsvx]

Corporate greed, mismanagement, $hitty cars, no innovative ideas, brand overload, unions,etc. need I go on? Remember what happened when we gave AIG bailout money? They had a big party and failed anyway. Bernard Madoff, I would be surprised if this a$$hole doesnt come up dead-50 Billion lost-where did it go? When is America going to wake up and decide we have had enough? Obama isnt going to fix it anytime soon unless there is MASSIVE regulation and reform-translation-a more socialist country. Bush set the police state in motion and the future administration will enforce it. Ask yourself why ammo has went thru the roof? To curtail a possible revolution when we hit 20-30% unemployment and almost certain depression. I'm saving my ammo for the bankers when they come to collect, greedy a$$holes

[Noir]

Originally Posted by benebob

Well considering it isn't like they've collapsed over night I would have positioned myself to loose my job (just as I positioned myself for the current economic downturn in my business), I would have begun the process of retraining myself for a new career, I would have worked to bring my company to the highest level of efficency and productivity that I could from whatever position I held and I probably would have moved years ago to a state which was much more diverse economy wise then most of the states where the Big Three have a large workforce.

+1 agreed. Those who don't choose to abandon a sinking ship deserves to drown.

[ensteele]

Ethics are long gone, just like the good ol days. Unfortunately Corporate greed along with Political greed are alive and well in this country, and Joe the worker will have to pay for it.

[benebob]

Originally Posted by demonsvx

I'm saving my ammo for the bankers when they come to collect, greedy a$$holes

Yes I'm sure the bankers forced you to sign those loans. When you're calling someone a greedy a$$hole you may just want to wipe the steam off the mirror first. They would simply be asking for what YOU owe them and YOU did not complete your end of the contract.

[gstape]

I am usually a conservative free market guy, but I support Bush's move.

Do you guys have any idea how intertwined the automotive supply base is? I can gaurentee you that if GM went down Toyota would be severly hurt. If GM goes down so do a bunch of tier one suppliers. If they go down so do their suppliers. Even if all Tier one suppliers are ok (which they are not) I can gaurentee a bunch of tier two or three suppliers will die. If that happens Toyota shuts down a bunch of plants, so does Honda, VW, Hyundai, even our beloved Subaru. It will take a long time for the industry as a whole to re-adjust, change suppliers, move tools, re launch... That is all down time and cost in an industry that really can't afford it (Honda pulled out of F1, Subaru out of FIA world rally) You know to do that they are hurting too.

I gotta think that the ripple effect throughout the economy would be large. $17 billion is only .1 % of the US GDP. and I would bet the downward effect of a failed GM would be much more than that.

JD Power would disagree with the "shi*ty" GM car comment. And so would the 4 million (in a normal 16 SAAR year) domestic customers that they have.

I'm not sold on a bail out being the best course of action, but I am sold that a rapid failure of GM would be a really bad thing for the Country.

As for what would I do in their position. Well considering it isn't like they've collapsed over night I would have positioned myself to loose my job (just as I positioned myself for the current economic downturn in my business), I would have begun the process of retraining myself for a new career, I would have worked to bring my company to the highest level of efficency and productivity that I could from whatever position I held and I probably would have moved years ago to a state which was much more diverse economy wise then most of the states where the Big Three have a large workforce.

Easy to say.

And no I don't work for GM or Chrysler. (I do however work for a tier 2 supplier that sells indirectly to Honda, Toyota, Suzuki, Subaru, Hyundai (Kia), GM, Ford, Chrysler, and probably more that I am not aware of)

Any way thats my two cents