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Old 11-26-2002, 12:25 PM
Porter
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Originally posted by Trevor
[B]Porter, am I to assume that is your true name ?
Yes, my name is Jason Porter. Nice to meet you.


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It was not my intention to offend you personally and I apologize and regret that you have become upset. My gripe is with manufacturers who make statements which have no scientific foundation and are simply not true.
I also have the same gripe.


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However you have inferred expert knowledge as a result of your occupation and others could accept the information you have posted as gospel and this would indeed be unfortunate.
I have posted nothing as gospel. I simply made a short list of the midgrade audio cables that I was installing in my car. That is in no way a recommendation or a solicitation, and to view it as such is rather odd since this is a car forum and not an audio forum.


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It would appear that you are basing your learning on advertising and manufacturers spin and this is the very point I was making.
That is an incorrect assumption. I am a great skeptic when it comes to cabling and the relative merits thereof.


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It is quite impossible for any form of straight conductor, stranded, gold plated or whatever, to in any way alter an audio signal other than attenuate it. It is not hard to put a spin on words using technical jargon and suggest all manner of alleged magic but scientific facts are required not here say.
You are correct. ALL cables attenuate signal in one way or another. The LACK of attenuation is the measure of the performance of a cable. One can certainly compare them in light of that fact, and the obvious "coloration" of sound between one pair of interconnects or speaker cables and another makes that brutally clear. More than 6 dB of sound output difference across multiple frequency ranges as measured with an RTA also makes that difference quite clear. Different cables do make a very clear difference in sound, whether they are interconnects or speaker cables. The days of "lamp cord" are long over and we have an entire research industry now dedicated to the pursuit of perfect signal transfer.


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Now I again apologize as I now realise that you are referring to shielded audio interconnecting leads rather speaker connectors in respect of braid. Shielding is essential in order to prevent what one could describe as induced noise. But provided a shielded audio cable is electrically correct it can not be improved on and high price can often be directly related to the cost of advertising. However no doubt shine and colour as well as high cost does provide a conversation piece.
We are talking about car audio, which is a far different environment from home audio, and filled with a myriad of noise producing devices. My expertise lies primarily in audio systems for the home, and many of the same principles apply, but the vastly increased noise floor in the auto environment calls for a different set of paradigms (pun intended!). Noise rejection/reduction is of paramount importance in a car interconnect as it is the weakest link in terms of both direct capacitive induction and toroidal impedance. Braiding, twisting, and extensive shielding all combine to reduce the transmission of chassis electrical noise into and through the cable. If you choose to deny the value of twist and braid in reducing the S/N ratio, go talk to the phone company or any telcom engineer about twist rate and braiding in phone and data cable and how it affects signal integrity in the real world.


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Please do not raise the issue of gold plating and the alleged advantages in respect of audio gear. A business I owned manufactured equipment dependent on electrical contacts so that I am aware of the proper application of precious metals. This exotic has been a winner for the spin doctors to trade on.
Who said anything about gold plating? Gold is one of the poorest conductors for audio use. Silver and copper are both much better conductors, as is platinum. Gold is valuable for only one reason... its resistance to oxidation and corrosion. Gold tipped interconnects will tend to preserve signal junction more effectively over time, especially when two different types of metals are making contact, and even more especially in an environment where they are exposed changes in humidity and temperature on a regular basis.

I understand that you have your little pet peeves on these issues, but please don't bring them to me or use any statement of mine as an example in your soapbox rhetoric. You're barking up the wrong tree.


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I note that you are installing infinite baffle subs in the rear deck. This would provide the ultimate set up for base reproduction and I would appreciate your advice as to how you are achieving this baffle arrangement. N. B. this is a genuine request and should not be taken as sarcasm. My home speakers are set up so as to provide virtual infinite baffle operation..
That is correct. I can't stand the sound of a sealed or ported box subwoofer, they all seem like one-note wonders to me. I chose to go with the infinite baffle arrangement as an experiment to see if I could disprove some of the commonly held opinions in the car audio community in my area... Since I am concerned only with sound quality and not with absolute output, it seemed like the best option. It certainly will give me a wider sonic palette and deliver a more accurate and pleasing experience.

As for the specifics... we are bonding 1/2in MDF to the bottom of the existing rear deck, enlarging the speaker openings to give good airflow, and mounting two 10" infinite baffle subs in more or less the stock 6x9 locations. The subs in question are both 8 ohm and designed specifically for this application, and will be driven at 4 ohms off a 250x1 regulated mono channel. Damping factor on that amp is in excess of 500 so it should deliver an acceptable level of control over the drivers.

The trunk will be damped with thin sound deadening insulation (Dynamat if you're curious), and the rear seat passthrough will be sealed off with a rubber grommeted MDF plate. The whole object is to prevent the back wave from interacting with the front wave, as the gross volumetric distances in the trunk are fixed and can't be easily tuned.


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I note that you have a background in music, a trained ear and your requirements indicate that you are able to hear close to 25 kc which is quite remarkable. Unfortunately I can no longer hear much above 3 kc due to shooting a short barrel rifle in my younger days and playing piano is becoming difficult so that I have resorted to a Technics digital piano. At present I am involved in developing a hearing enhancement unit for use by people in the same boat who have trouble understanding the dialogue in TV programs and home theatre multi speaker systems.
Yes, I'm very lucky to be able to hear clearly up to about 19,000hz. Above the 20hz mark of course the perceived sound disappears but spatial effect is still there. The human brain responds to sound up to around 30,000hz, this is where we derive spatial acoustics and it is the science on which psychoacoustics is built.

For example... in a completely dark room, walk up to a wall. Even if you are making no sound and the room is carpeted, you can "hear" the location of the wall... that is high frequency spatial acoustics.

In reproduced sound that frequency range delivers the sensation of space in the recording environment, especially in a live recording that is properly mastered. CD audio attenuates above 22,500hz, while SACD and DVD Audio extend well above that into the 30k and 40k realm, and up in the case of SACD.

Your work in hearing enhancement must be very rewarding... it is a beautiful thing to see someone hear something again that they thought was lost to them... it is a great gift. Best of luck to you.


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You must accept that inaccurate information should be challenged for the good of all and can result in interesting debate. The intent is not to teach a lesson. Have you had a look at the great site covering car audio posted by Lee ? All the answers are there in respect of analyzing manfrs. claims.
Yes, I've seen that site before. It has some great info.


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This " lordly statesman from down under " tries very hard in view of his age not to post in a patronizing manner but it appears that I have not succeeded.
Well, no you didn't. But I forgive you! If I'm ever in NZ we'll have to meet for drinks... and of course you're always welcome here!


-J. Porter

Last edited by Porter; 11-26-2002 at 12:34 PM.
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