Code 14? / Code 24?
 

Is this a tech or mod question? Both, so I put it here w/ what info should be pertinent.

Among other things I installed a 2V7F w/ a reman Z32 MAF and sr25det injectors.

I inspected the injectors, all looked good with a ohms reading of 12 +/- 0.04.
I sent them out to get new o-rings, pintel caps, screens, ultrasonic cleaned, spray pattern tested and checked for flow rates. I did this as a precautionary measure to avoid any issues. :rolleyes:

I am getting a code 14, injector #1

I am also dumping a crazy amount of fuel into both sides of the motor. I have true duals so I can know both banks are getting too much fuel. My little garage is 100% filled w/ fuel smoke in about 30 sec. of idle. It burns the eyes and lungs and takes some time to clear out. I have not checked fuel pressure or vac signal to fpr, but doubt that either could be causing so much of a rich condition.

I will be swapping injectors to see if the code moves around, but was wondering what others thought about it so far. I have double checked vac lines and connections, injector resistance and MAF wiring. I guess I still need to check the injector wiring, hope I still have that injector tester thing in the tool box.:)

Other mods semi related to this: intake gaskets (bolts were loose but I already bought the gaskets, so why not), both knock sensors (both were cracked), plenum and T.B. spacers (OT talked me into it), all rubber lines under the intake and the IRIS check valve (old hoses and cracked valve)... I think that's it.

Any takers?

ah, you are running a z32 MAF and not a stock MAF, right?
-Bill

Made the edit.
Yes Z32, had to buy 2 plugs for it because the 1st one ran away for a couple of weeks. It showed back up after I bought the 2nd one.:rolleyes:
Stupid elves.

Can someone add a ? to the end of the title for me? I don't want it to look like I am blaming the ecutune for the issue.

It should read: code 14? due to ecutune 2V7F?

Thanks,
Shaun

"I will be swapping injectors to see if the code moves around"

Excellent first off check which should disclose something. You advise that you sent the injectors to experts for attention. Could one be very much out of shape. :confused::( In which case the bill is also out of shape.:D

I could only test resistance of the injector coil on the before and after. I found no change in readings and I have tried 2 dmm's. I get from 11.8 to 12.1 ohms which is well within spec for these injectors. It is really frustrating to not have real time data when dealing w/ this issue. I have no idea what the ECU is sending out for a duty cycle, and can't monitor voltages as my test equipment is low grade. I need more data to form opinions here. Anyone got a 'magic' wrench handy?:lol:

I had noted that you had checked the resistance and compared this with the OEM in case there was a difference. Injectors are very much dependent on mechanical skills when it comes to overhaul and adjustment. Blues are not difficult to suspect in this area.;)

P.S. Please clear your PM in box.

PM cleaned, checking stockers now...

Thanks btw

Have you dropped LAN a PM/email to get his thoughts on what's going on?
-Bill

Will do, and thanks for the input.

Hey, no problem!

Question - what was the flow rate for the injectors when you had them checked out?

-Bill

As I am lazy at working on the car. I got that info several months ago and will have to look it up to give you an answer. I remember that I thought ,at the time, it was within stock spec, for those injectors. I think it was around 372-373cc's.
Having a damaged brain I can only remember things for a short while, but I am sure to have made note of any discrepancy if there was anything worth noting.

Looking for the papers...too many folders of info...where did I file it...

38.1 lbs/hr flow rate is what I got on average, good flow, good pattern before and after. I didn't need the service done, and as the seller stated they only had like 30K on them at the time. I thought better safe than sorry.

I don't have a scanner to give all the details of the print out, but I think it all looks good. I will swap injectors tomorrow and see what happens.

Tonight I swapped around injectors 1,3 and 5 (1w/3, and 1w/5).

W/ the 2 blue wires plugged in I started the car for 30 sec to clear the code. Next I removed the wires and restarted and ran it for a minute to get the CEL to reappear. I checked and still got a code 14.
Just in case I didn't clear the code properly I have disconnected the battery to drain the memory. the air is clearing for now, but I will recheck for codes later tonight.

I also checked injector signal on 1 and 3 and they both looked the same, so I am opening the best bottle of beer ever: a Samuel Adams Double Bock!

I am starting to think I know why the car is flooded w/ gas and will post what I think after I try to correct it. I am embarrassed to say what I may have done wrong.:o

As LAN brought up, I have used liberal amounts of vaseline on all the o-rings. He made a good point that a torn inner oring will flood the motor w/ gas while a torn outer oring will flood the engine bay with gas.

p.s. My stock injectors have ohm readings from 11.5 to 12.1 which is within spec., and same as the replacements.

Main thought
 

The question bugging me over the last couple of days: What is the possability that the code 14 means something else?

I mean an exhaust leak can set a O2 code. A bad MAF can set a IAC code. A dirty MAF can set a MAF code and O2 codes. A bad cam sensor may not even set a code...
You see what I am driving at?

When you changed injectors, did you run the fuel rail dry before you started?
If not, then gasoline remaining in the fuel rails can pour into the cylinders and flood/hydralock the engine.
Tom

Code 14 can result from and mean that the circuit operating the indicated injector is faulty, e.g. partially or fully open, or short circuited.

However you report --- "I also checked injector signal on 1 and 3 and they both looked the same," which appears to rule out this possibility. :confused:

I gather you are suggesting that the ECU might be sending an incorrect code. Plausible, but probably unlikely. By way of a test in this regard, you could disconnect another injector to see if this correctly results in the return of an appropriate second code.

The plot is thick. :eek:

I'm going out to see a friend play tonight so I won't be tinkering w/ the car much until tomorrow.

svxfiles: I pulled the fuel rails w/ the intake and pulled the injectors on my bench.

Trevor: "I gather you are suggesting that the ECU might be sending an incorrect code. Plausible, but probably unlikely. By way of a test in this regard, you could disconnect another injector to see if this correctly results in the return of an appropriate second code." I should have done that already! Doheth.

how did you check the pattern on the injectors? with a oscilloscope? what did the pattern look like on both these injectors?

So the plot thickens.

I am now getting codes 11, and 14-19.
crank angle sensor and all injectors? :confused:

I guess I will try looking at the crank sensor now. It's just weird that all this happens after doing the ecutune chip.
The code 23 and 24 I had were due to me not wiring the MAF correctly. :rolleyes: This was something I realized I did wrong but forgot about before starting the car.

The car is running like I have all the plug wires in the wrong places, like on a car with a distributor.
I will be back in a bit with a list of measurements...

Tests for the codes of 14-19

Here are the readings for all the injectors and from the harness of injectors 1,3,4,6. (4 of 6 are the same, why test all 6?)

I consider readings of +- 0.02 volts to be the same and +- 0.01 ohms the same also. Current batt voltage 12.16V (a little low, door was left open last night. oops.)

Old injectors read 11.5 - 12.1 ohms
New injectors are 11.8 - 12.01 ohms

Removing injector clips to get voltage readings:
1,3,4,6 all have the same readings and are as follow:

The rearward (firewall side) wire is a grey w/ red stripe, the other (forward) wires are grey w/ other colored stripes.

G/R key off: is a ground w/ 12.15V
G/R key on: is a + w/ 12.01V

grey/other key off: is a ground w/ 10.55V
grey/other key on: is a ground w/ 10.0V

voltage between 2 wires key off: 0V
voltage between 2 wires key on: 9.89V

What's next?

Important note:
 

I previously had only code 14 for injector #1 and was running SUPER rich.

I realized that I had the wires backwards as I just flipped the injector plug upside down to fit on the sr25det injectors.
Being that these are just solenoids I had them working the reverse duty cycle of what the computer wanted them to do. IE: they were open when the ECU thought they were closed.

I used a little tool to slip the wires out of the harness connectors to reverse the wires.
By reverse I mean put them back where they are suppose to be. :rolleyes: That left me with codes 14 15 16 17 18 19, but not running rich.

Hope that makes since.

p.s. I'm not even bringing up the issue I am having w/ the NEW ECUTUNE trans. yet. That is for another thread when this is resolved.

Okay, so the super rich state was due to the injectors not being wired correctly, but that's fixed now that you've swapped the wires going to each injector, right? Crank angle sensor is rearing its head, which could easily just be a coincidence.
Given everything that has gone on so far, how about disconnecting the battery overnight and letting the ECU have some time to recollect its senses?:lol:
Sounds like you're taking all the right steps, you may just have to let the engine/ECU recover from the mis-wiring issue (oh, and maybe throw a new crank angle sensor in while you're at it;)
-Bill

I closed the garage door and unplugged the batt. I'll let it sleep until tomorrow night.
Which one is the crank sensor? In the front middle of the block there are 2 sensors and I know one of them is the crank. I'll look for pics as I have seen a pic of which is which somewhere... my memory leaves a bit to be desired.


edit:
$175 for a crank sensor!!! I can't afford that damn.

Please note that a crank sensor code can be caused by a bad two wire water temp sensor.;)
And they are $40.00 or less.

crank senor #1 is used to determain which injector to fire so if you figure out that code then all the injector codes should be fixed as well the reason you car it running like that is the only sensor left is crank angle sensor 2 which can group fire the injectors only at this point i assume you have a oscilloscope so heres the all data test its pretty easy:

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g1...r/42351650.gif


Remove crank angle sensor 1.
Set the positive (+) probe at sensor connector terminal No. 1, and set earth lead at terminal No. 2.
Check a wave profile appears crossing a magnet near the pick-up coil of crank angle sensor 1.

:confused::confused::confused:

If a scope is not available, as per above mentioned fig 57 from the manuals, a multi meter set to a low voltage AC range should suffice and register some tenths of a volt, at each pass of the magnet. ;)

Has Mike sent you a new set of software?? SVXBart had an injector code on his car with his stage 1 a while back. did all the troubleshooting I could. Even plugged in a stock ECU to find that it was secluded to the ECU and Mike sent him a new chip... no code since... Worth a shot

Tom

Thanks for the input everyone. :)
I had a little distraction :banana: last night that left me a little tipsy. :D I was in a good mood when I got home and didn't want to face the SVX problems.
I also won't have scope access until thursday. I am trying to buy one, but I should at least be able to borrow one then to do proper testing.

Now out to the garage to see if the SVX will wake up in a good mood.

Sorry.
:o
Please note that a crank sensor code (or a cam sensor code) can be caused by a bad two wire water temp sensor.

an explanation would be great this confuses me as well

Tom

Do you mean that if some idiot replaces a crank or cam sensor with a water temp, sensor this will give a code? Or are you suggesting that a faulty temp. sensor in its correct place, can result in a crank or cam sensor code? :confused::confused:

Yes.:)
As crazy as it sounds a bad two wire water temp sensor can cause a no start condition, and throw incorrect codes, like the cam and crank sensor codes.

Tom:)

Grasshopper, You forget my #?:p

OK, so I have injested too many exhaust fumes and am not feeling all that hot. After letting the car sit w/ the batt unplugged I started it up tonight, ran it up to operating temp, and shut it down. 2 cycles

Several things to note:

There is only a code 23 now. I thought it went away??

The idle is that of a car w/ a bad vac leak.
I hooked up a vac guage (tried 2 just to be sure) and got a decent stable reading of around 23" when the idle was stable. Basically after the car entered closed loop mode the idle would begin to fluctuate. The ecu would try and correct, but would over compensate until it reached that point. Point being a jump to 1500 rpm and the resulting fall would kill the car. Starts around 600rpm, goes up to 700 rpm, falls to 550 rpm, goes to 800 rpm, falls to 500 rpm, goes to.... You get the idea.
I see this as a lack of data from the MAF.

I need to find the info on the maf wires so I can check them, but figure I may as well wait till I get that scope so I can watch things real time.

I had cozycat on the odepaj on the phone to hear the exhaust sound. Marisa was something like "is that a motor cycle" cause it sounded like a harley.

No MAF , in my mind, could explain the running a little rich, exhaust pulses showing late combustion, not running properly in open loop, unregulated idle, and the code 23.

I don't know where the other codes went or where they came from.

I (from a cleared ecu state) did the start car, run till open loop, read codes, check values and shut off twice tonight.

I appreciate the help and info here, so I hope doing the exact same procedure twice will eliminate any false readings and make the problem apparent.

I have a MAF issue. I should start looking for the reciept and warranty info I guess.

You have approached everything logically and should trust your own judgement. Taking into account the weird codes you have had registered, surely you are being kind in not also doubting the ecutune 2V7F as being directly involved.

#14?
 

14 is specifically...? Inj, #1 ckt?

When you have a code you need to stop and think about the specific wording and how the ECU would determine what it 'thinks' is wrong. If it is "#1 Injector ckt or injector fault" how would it determine that? Power to the injectors is common to all, or at least three (each bank.) The ECU grounds the injector when it wants it to function. That means the ECU would expect to read voltage on the ground circuit of the injector until its driver grounds it, then it would read -0- volts. Now maybe it is seeing ground on that injector circuit all the time, even when it isn't commanded. That would mean you have a short to ground on that individual circuit and when the harness is attached to the injector it would flow, non-stop.

Obviously the easiest (read:lazy) thing to do would be to unplug #1 injector and start the engine. A misfire on #1 would be expected but the excessive fueling issue should not be present. Of course, I hope you would check the injector harness for a short to ground. These cars are aging and it doesn't take much to knock some insulation off. Also, you should know better than to introduce too many new items at one time, doing so creates a potential diagnostic nightmare for yourself.

Well Trevor I have done what I can with what I have here. I am aggravated w/ the car and just wished I would have never bought the thing in the first place. Instead I have just been dumping thousands of dollars into it (parts only as I do all the work) and would have been better off getting something else.
I am not one of those 'throwing parts at it' kind of guys as I truly must know what the real problem is that is causing the other problems. [ ie: a worn plug causes undue stress on the wires/coil (vehicle dependant) causing stress on the ignition module, which leads to system breakdown, electricity seeks the path of less resistance...)
I truly do want to blame ecutune/LAN for my issues. But before I go and do such a thing I must make sure that I have covered all my bases. If Mike asks a question of me I want to be certain that I can answer him honestly with all the correct data to back my answer up. All and all I do want to blame someone other than myself, I just have to be sure first. (stupid conscience)

Beav: Thanks for your input here (as well as all others that have posted) on my matter. I have the knowledge already of what you have posted and have applied this to the tests I have performed.
I do not at this time have all the diagnostic tools needed to test everything as I would like. 2 days till an O-scope! I am excited as this will give me a great advantage concerning my troubles.
I have tried the un-plug test and other tests as you have thoughtfully brought up, but didn't see any real gain in observable data, so I didn't post such things. I am walking the line of a lazy poster and providing necessary details here.

Why won't those elves that hide my parts fix my car while they are at it?:)

Hi Beav, welcome back with your added wisdom.

The above instruction is what so many here ignore and as a result wind up with their knitting in a tangle. :eek: I have stressed the point many times to no avail. :(:p:lol:

Yeah that is part of my internal aggravation here. I did too much at once.
Like I stated in the first post here, I am trying to keep this system related.
I don't see how a trans swap could affect this issue. I changed my tail lights and steering wheel too. None of that is relevant as far as I am concerned. If I am wrong then let me know.

On that note I will comprise a complete list of what has been done to the car whether it is relevant to this issue or not. I may have missed something obvious in it all and that may be my issue. I don't think so, but I like to hear others opinions on things.