Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

My dash lights are all coming on at once, sometimes staying on and other times only flickering. I have checked my alternator and my battery 3 different times just to be sure. Everything there checks out fine. I am thinking the problem is in the wire that sends the signal to the dash.

Anybody able to tell me if that makes sense to them?

And which wire it is?

I wonder if I might need to replace the pigtail on my voltage regulator. One of the two wires has a number of broken strands.

Could this cause my problem? Any thoughts or advice would help. Thanks

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Sounds like you're headed in the right direction.

What does the voltage read at your battery with everything off vs the engine running?

All the connections to the alternator should be secure. If the pigtail wires are frayed then there's a good chance that's the problem.

You may even want to get your alternator bench tested under load. Sometimes the symptoms are not readily apparent.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

A better question might be "what does your battery read at the time the christmas tree glowing"

(with the engine running, of course... you knew that) :lol:

Keith:cool:

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Search for a posting by Trevor on this subject. The problem is the recifier in the alternator. Test for AC not DC.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

When I purchased the Laguna, the lights were on, but brightly and all the time when the car was running. It turned out that the alternator was overcharging the battery.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Dam$%* you beat me to the post!

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Might be interesting to know exactly what the problem is... AC, DC, whatever, but the bottom line is... if the alternator is not working correctly, it has to be replaced. If you do a DC voltage test, with the alternator malfunctioning, I will guarantee you that you will not get the correct DC voltage output.

Life is so simple.

Keith:cool:

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

The symptoms described indicate an alternator fault which has been reported here many times. However the exact cause is rather obscure.

The dash indicator lights test circuit, incorporates blocking diodes to eliminate a sneak circuit which would otherwise exist. In an event involving faults within the alternator rectifier network, alternating current is induced on line. The result is pulses of reverse voltage, which pass the blocking diodes in the test circuit and energise the indicator lights.

A simple voltage test will not necessarily record this fault, as the alternator can be capable of supplying the required current with one diode in the network faulty, and the regulator to compensate.

Some long time ago I requested that someone with this fault, experiment by switching their multi meter to AC and then check for any reading, which could confirm the exact problem existed.

Again I say, "any takers on this one."

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Great to see you Trevor!!

Hope all is well...

Keith:cool:

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Nice to have you back Trevor! :D

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Just today all of my dash warning lights came on. I checked the belts and they were fine. I continued toward work and after 20 miles the fusible link blew killing all electrical power. Besides the fusible link, there were 3 fuses under the hood and 7 in the interior kick panel fuse block blown. I replaced the fusible link and the car will start and drive. I keep blowing the interior 10A CRUISE/ABS and 10A METER/SRS LAMP fuses. I have no turn signals, cruise or climate control.
If could be caused be the alternator diodes, I will check the AC output. If Trevor or someone can tell me what readings to expect or which terminals to probe that would be helpful.
Keith

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

I just came back in from the car. The battery voltage was down to 7.5 volts, so I must have a dead short somewhere. I'm charging it now and should be able to check it later tonight. Again any help on how to check the alternator for AC output would be appreciated.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

How do Keith?

It would appear that your dash lights have come on steady rather than flickering, but please confirm.

The symptoms you report would indicate severe over voltage, due to a regulator fault as well as possibly an initial rectifier diode fault. The regulator is integral with the alternator. An exceptionally high current flow is required in order to blow the fusible link.

In order for fuses to continue to blow, a short circuit must exist on the affected circuits. This is probably due to a high voltage damaging components on these circuits. It would appear that the high voltage is no longer present and could have been limited to a short term spike.

I could be off track, but the above is my immediate reaction. If you wish to check for AC. Switch your meter accordingly and look for any level of AC. The meter should not record DC as this is blocked by the internal rectifier. Please report your findings on the basis of considerable interest.

Your experience is a clear indication of the need to retain protection within the alternator wiring, this being discussed within another current thread.

Trevor.

P.S. As you now report a very low battery, there could be a near short circuit remaining within the alternator, not solid enough to blow the fusible link. The symptoms are rather complicated for sure.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

+1 to the short. I had dealt with the same problem. Regulator gave up the ghost and within 5 mins of driving fried over half a dozen modules. Best thing to do is get some circuit breakers that will fit into the fuse slots. This way you can isolate anything on the circuit that blows the breaker. Basically, unplug each module, or mechanism one by one to find out which one is shorting. Or just do a resistance test to ground while you unplug them. This will help you get the short figured.

Considering the battery is draining down, there is obviously a relay stuck on all the time. Do a draw test. You need to disconnect the fuses for each circuit until the draw is gone. This will only help you identify the circuit in question. From there you need to find all relays in that circuit and unplug them one at a time to find the one sticking. In my past experiences with this car, it tends to be the rear window defroster. It is one of the only circuits that can draw enough amperage to drain the battery quickly and go unnoticed.

Tom

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Trevor,
The lights were on steady, not flickering. I heard a considerable pop when the fusible link blew. It was a "what the hell" was that moment. The engine turned off, the transmission lost its electrical control and every circuit seemed dead. I agree it would take a considerable spike to lose the fusible link.
I will be checking for AC when I work on it tomorrow and will post the results.

Tom,
Thanks for the ideas on how to chase down the affected circuits and relays. I will use that as a basis for my troubleshooting. Also I wanted to thank you for the conversations we had when I first got the car with a bad front diff. I have since done the 4.44 swap. I don't know what the performance was like the 3.54 ratio, but I do like the current performance.
Keith

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

I've run the normal set of dc tests with the christmas tree lights on and off both. The results were close enough to be considered the same. It does seem a little high, but not seriously high on my DC. The voltage showing is between 14.7 and 15.0 with loads on and off both.

Trevor, when I run an AC test, I am simply looking for any AC reading correct? I'm not incredibly electrical savvy so please correct me if I should be looking for something else.

I do have frayed lines on my pigtail, so I ought to replace it anyways. After I do the AC test I will report my findings. I also intend to go ahead and bench test the thing to see what I get from that. Thanks for the help guys even if half of it is in greek. :)

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

I would replace the alternator before I start the car again! If this thing can blow the fuselink it could also blow a bunch of stuff! There is no way that the alternator is functioning right and doing what it is doing.
Since it is established that the alternator is sending way too much voltage to the system, just change it!

If there happens to be another problem, then go after it.

I would bet that with a new alternator, which you will have to do before you go places in your car, everything will be fine... unless you keep screwing around with it and blow up more things than you can ever replace!

fuses blow much faster than circuit breakers trip. How long would you like to shoot umpteen volts into your system???????

Keith:cool:

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

an alternator can work and be spasmodic and again not work at all.

You certainly didn't blow the fuse link with your 14.7 - 15 but it could damage something in your system.

like tom said... " I had dealt with the same problem. Regulator gave up the ghost and within 5 mins of driving fried over half a dozen modules."
he kept running his
No short will fry over half a dozen modules... no short!!!

Not the way it works.

Change the danged alternator.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

From my earlier thread:-
If you wish to check for AC. Switch your meter accordingly and look for any level of AC. The meter should not record DC as this is blocked by the internal rectifier. Please report your findings on the basis of considerable interest.

Start with your meter on an AC range of around 20 volts full scale and step scales down from there. You are looking for any level of AC which may register.

It could be a half wave component with only a single diode shorted through, but you will have no way of reliably confirming this. If the meter flicks up and down over a couple of digits, this could provide a clue, depending on whether the meter is or is not, input smoothed.

There is several possibilities in all this. Some other factor could have caused the fuse link to open. Because of the rather poor way the alternator control/sensing circuit is arranged by the factory, a rebounding spike from an inductive load,at the opening of the link, could have upset the voltage regulation, so that the output went very high for an instant.

By rights the voltage sensing conductor should connect directly to the positive bus, hence the battery, via a low rated fuse. Whereas this wiring has been combined with other circuits and is not independent and separately protected at a low level, as it should be.

N.B. A further possibility is that the sensing circuit became intermittently faulty, leaving the regulator to fly free. Check the plug connection and light wiring for any sign of a problem.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Trevor,
I recharged the battery and found the following:
1) Under static non-running conditions the rear defroster was pulling 9.25A. Thanks Tom.
2) With the engine running I found 25.4 VAC at the alternator. This was from the top (output?) terminal to ground. There was no DC output that I could find. It read only battery voltage. At the battery it read 25.7 VAC. Both reading were steady with no flicker.
As a check of technique, I thought I would duplicate my efforts on my wife's Outback. Her alternator shows 14.3 VDC and 31 VAC.
I guess I need two alternators at a minimum.
Keith

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Keith:cool:

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Keith,
Take your alternator to a local starter/alt. shop. For $100-150 you'll be good to go with a local warranty where you can always stop in and give 'em a piece of your mind if it fails on a cold dark rainy night. Plus it'll be a better rebuild then your average rebuild factory does.;) More than likely you won't get a "lifetime" warranty but I've replaced more lifetime warranty alt or starters then I have one build at the shop 2 miles away (have yet to have an issue with anything they've done).

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Thanks.. already played their game and got a lifetime guarantee about 40,000 miles back.

Our alternators should have a higher amperage rating than the factory ones do. My next move is to go for the high amp rebuilt exchange.

Also our HID lights will help us a bunch with the amperage draw on the regular factory type alternators. :)

Things are looking up!

Glad this worked out well!

Quote-KWren (change the danged alternator) :lol:

Take care
Keith:cool:

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Why? The stock alt is more than ample for what the car has on it provided you're not loosing amps with a poorly maintained electrical system. Every single alt builder I know says the stock rating is about all the mitsu can handle over the long haul anyways. Higher output will lead to a dead alt quicker plus your wiring system isn't up to the stuff of it as wiring is used based on the specified alternator.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Increasing the output of a standard alternator will most certainly increase the heat developed. This will place the machine outside the designers criteria and under abnormal stress. It is a matter of experience to establish the designers latitudes and that there is still sufficient headroom to provide reliability.

The short length of wire involved in passing high current, should not become overloaded to any practical extent. The main concern will be a possible increased voltage drop, due to increased current.

The so called "up grade" often appears to have been fitted, when the requirement is simply a restoration to factory specs. The reported joy being due to out of whack measurements having been taken from an originally faulty system, by way of comparison when establishing performance.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Keith, thanks for your efforts.

Very interesting, but rather confusing in one respect. You report measuring an output of 25.4 volts AC from the SVX alternator output terminal, but no DC that you could find. You say that you read only battery voltage.

Was the DC measurement taken at only the battery end of the charging circuit? If there was no DC at the alternator, this would indicate no connection between battery and alternator, i.e. no back feed from the battery. Please advise accordingly.

In respect of your wife's car, I would say that one diode in the rectifier network is shot, but even so there is an adequate DC output to keep the battery charged. If the AC is causing no concern, (The SVX is probably rather novel with its fault lamp arrangement.) leave as is and save money. However should charging trouble become apparent later on, you will know what to do.

Your experiment with your mother's car, is very useful, as many times members have reported a shop testing an alternator and reporting it OK, but afterwards the flashing fault light problem has continued. I have commented that the shop would have done no more than a simple voltage test and your findings confirm this theory. ≈

In order to confirm theory with practice, I have checked my SVX, which I know to be spot on, and can read only a wisp of AC, i.e. 0.025 VAC flickering +-. This amounts to no more than noise and is understandable in a set up which is not smoothed in any way.

We now have a very cost effective and simple test confirmed. Hoooooray.:D

Thanks! Trevor.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

I measured the AC volts in my vehicle. The dashboard lights come on when there is more than 33 volts AC passing through the harness. When it drops to 30 volts AC my dashlights go off. Either way, now that curiosity is satisfied, I'm ripping the dumb thing out and putting in a new one. I only replaced it a few months ago, so warranty time it is. Thanks for your help guys.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Special thanks for this precise information, which expands the record of experience regarding the method of testing. The cut off point you describe is interesting and not easily explained. I will try to fathom a reason for same.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

The stock alternator is not more than ample for what the car has on it. Why do you think we have so much trouble with our alternators??

No one is talking about losing amps with a "poorly maintained electrical system" :confused: ... whatever that means, or higher voltage output. Higher rated alternators allows the same voltage output but uses higher rated components in the alternators system.

The wires and accessorys relate to voltage, not the current carrying capacity of the components within the alternator. The voltage output remains the same.

We all know, at least I think we all know, that heat is a killer... especially in electrical components. The higher rated electrical components in the heavy duty alternator withstand more heat without damage.

There you go... some Whys!

Keith:cool:

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

If the alternator involved is the factory machine modified for increased output, the end result will be an increase in internal heat.

Components are unlikely to be more highly rated and in this respect voltage is the main issue, aside from heat the real enemy as stated. It is the windings which will have been altered. Correctly, more turns of a heavier wire are required, not more of the same gauge. In order to do this without reducing insulation space, more space is required, which should require a larger carcass.

When on open circuit the modified machine could produce an increased voltage. This will be offset in service by the voltage regulator but the potential exists.

I am not saying that a carefully modified alternator should not be used, but only that there should be no intrinsic increase in reliability expected over the original, other than a factor of possibly better quality assembly. This of course could also apply and more so without any increase in heat, in respect of a machine rebuilt for standard output.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Tom this bit is starting to make sense.:) The regulator in the alt has a ‘Diagnostic & Warning Circuit’ that operates the ‘Change Light’ to warn of problems. For some unknown reason (maybe they just wanted them to be noticed) they have used a few diodes to have the ‘Stop light check’, Parking brake light’, ‘Charge light’, and the ‘’Steering Warning light’ all coming on.
The book says that the Diagnostic system will warn of these problems;
No voltage generated.
Excessive output.
Terminal B disconnected.
Terminal S disconnected.
I think that there is a system of ways that the regulator brings these lights on, to signal the type of trouble. On at idle, going off when you rev it. Off at idle, going on when you rev it, and flashing them. I also think that the flashing is the ‘Excessive output’ warning.

When the regulator has a problem that prevents it from controlling the output, the alternator charges flat out, its voltage only held to the rising battery voltage. This would have the fusible link carrying excessive current for an extended period of time. Finally the link blows out. When this happens the alternator is on full change, about 90 amps at 15 to 16 volts, 15.5 X 90 equals about 1390 watts, suddenly the link opens, and the amperage falls to zero. Now we have 1390 watts divided by 0 amps equals 1390 volts.

This would not worry any thing if the alternator was isolated by the fusible link, but there are a number of circuits still connected to the alternator, that will have to dissipate this high voltage. As there is quite a lot of energy in the alternator, all the circuits that are still connected, will take quite a few milliseconds to dissipate it. The circuits that will suffer the most are, the low resistance circuits, any relays that are on at the time will have the points welded together.

Harvey.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Thanks for the input Trevor! Great to have you back in our lives!:)

To clarify, a higher amperage alternator doesn't necessarily put out more amps. It has the ability to do so with an increased load without damage to the components. The Heavy Duty rebuild is rated at 160 amp capacity as opposed to the 95ish of an original one.

An alternator output is in volts. The voltage determines the amps that is drawn with a constant load. With the same voltage output with either alternator, the load... or amps would be the same.

As Trevor verified, the problem arises from an increased load that usually causes the heat factor to take its toll on the components.

Logic tells me that the main difference in the two is the higher amperage components that are put in the Heavy Duty rebuild.

I could be mistaken, but I would be surprised if replacing the windings was a routine part of the rebuild process. That would dig too far into the rebuilding company's "greed factor". It would be nice to get heavy duty windings, but as Trevor said, larger gauge wire would not really be feasible for a couple of reasons. Maybe some of the people that elect to have their old alternators rebuilt could give some input on that?

Again, I could be mistaken. but I don't believe that windings are the major problem with our alternator failures.

Is interesting to learn, but sometime during the learning process we just have to "change the danged thing":lol:

Keith:cool:

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

How do Keith?

The only way to increase the current the alternator is capable of delivering at full capacity, is to alter the windings. If this is not being done, then the voltage regulator has been messed with, so that the output voltage is increased above normal for a given level of detected voltage. The customer will notice an increase in the level of charge and no doubt will be happy with his bill.

This does not result in a genuine higher rating and would be a "con." What is more the battery will complain and there will be an increase in the heat factor. However this gimmick would help those constantly running many accessories and doing short runs, but in a back handed way. You get what you pay for. :D

Cheers, Trevor.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Slightly off-topic, but probably of some good use.

Maniac Electric Motors, who built my 160A high-output alternator, has a page on Voltage Drop Testing for Charging/Starting System Circuits. Click HERE

Gives circuit loading procedures, test points, readings, components or circuits being tested and action to take.

.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Right on topic and right in content. The instruction being to test for a value of voltage drop ACROSS each circuit, rather than by means of a voltage test at each end. Many times over years, both Bev. and I have covered this point, but still find some testing in a less accurate fashion.:(

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

:confused:

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

"The regulator in the alt has a ‘Diagnostic & Warning Circuit’ that operates the ‘Change Light’ to warn of problems. For some unknown reason (maybe they just wanted them to be noticed) they have used a few diodes to have the ‘Stop light check’, Parking brake light’, ‘Charge light’, and the ‘’Steering Warning light’ all coming on."

The reason for the arrangement is obvious. The circuitry is arranged in this way in order that several lamps, which are activated via devices which are open to ground when the engine is not running, are included in the lamp test function and are illuminated at ignition turn on. This is achieved via the diodes and the alternator fault circuit, which is closed to ground, when the alternator is at rest. Any alternator fault indication will be confined to the appropriate indicator lamp.

"I think that there is a system of ways that the regulator brings these lights on, to signal the type of trouble. On at idle, going off when you rev it. Off at idle, going on when you rev it, and flashing them. I also think that the flashing is the ‘Excessive output’ warning."

These thoughts are not based on logic or fact, written, diagrammatic or otherwise.

"When the regulator has a problem that prevents it from controlling the output, the alternator charges flat out, its voltage only held to the rising battery voltage. This would have the fusible link carrying excessive current for an extended period of time. Finally the link blows out. When this happens the alternator is on full change, about 90 amps at 15 to 16 volts, 15.5 X 90 equals about 1390 watts, suddenly the link opens, and the amperage falls to zero. Now we have 1390 watts divided by 0 amps equals 1390 volts."

If there are no/zero/0 volts there can not be current flowing in a circuit, i.e. 0 amps = zero volts. The calculation resolving 1390 volts is hardly accurate. However it would seem that the intention is to establish that a voltage spike may occur. In order to generate enough current to melt the fusible link, this must occur against the the battery, rather than directly to ground. What is more the link is not a quick blow item.

"This would not worry any thing if the alternator was isolated by the fusible link, but there are a number of circuits still connected to the alternator, that will have to dissipate this high voltage. As there is quite a lot of energy in the alternator, all the circuits that are still connected, will take quite a few milliseconds to dissipate it. The circuits that will suffer the most are, the low resistance circuits, any relays that are on at the time will have the points welded together."

The above would again indicate a theory confined to a spike. Or is it that after a few milliseconds of dissipating the “quite a ot of energy in the alternator”, the effected device will fail and become out of circuit. In which case the high voltage could have been present for a period?

The wording and text is understood, but the exact issue, which has only now made sense and was to be the essence of the post, remains hidden. The inaccurate treatise covering the trouble lights, being superfluous.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

This is an email and email reply about the high amp alternator for our cars. First is the reply I copy pasted it and this is the way I received it.

Hello Keith,

The windings are not a normal cause for failure, but when we build a 'High Output' alternator, we use new windings with more copper (this is where the capabilities come from). Heavy duty High Amp Diodes, and other modifications, make it more effecient with more capabilities, allwithin the original case.

Thank You,
Christian

--- On Sun, 3/29/09, keithwren@comcast.net <keithwren@comcast.net> wrote:

From: keithwren@comcast.net <keithwren@comcast.net>
Subject: High output rebuilt alternators
To: christian@maniacelectricmotors.com
Date: Sunday, March 29, 2009, 8:02 PM
Hello there!

You are on my list to get a high amp alternator for my SVX.

I assume that this is acquired by taking the original alternator and putting in higher amperage components. I am in a discussion with other SVX owners about how this is achieved.

I would imagine that you use higher amperage components for the rebuild.

Do you also have to change the windings?
Any information you would share with me would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Keith Wren
The website link!

http://www.maniacelectricmotors.com/hiou160ampal6.html

There you go!

Keith:cool:

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Christian is a real sweetheart to talk to in person. She is very knowledgable about alternators and charging systems.

If I remember correctly, she said that the windings were a finer gauge of copper, which allowed for a greater amount of windings. This is what gives the low-speed improvement in performance.

They really have high quality control; starters and alternators are all they do. They bench and field test for at least 30 minutes with all kinds of loads at different RPMs.

She said that if an alternator went bad under warranty, she issues a call tag to have it picked up and returned to you at their expense.

.

Re: Christmas Dash Lights, but no Electrical Problem
 

Definitely not a fly by night company, but a class act.
Refreshing in "today's" America!

Email them late yesterday and got back a response this am!

The finer wire would make a lot of sense. Gives the room for the added number of windings and since opposition to current flow is a matter of inductance rather than the ohm resistance, that works for higher amps!

For $160.00 it is certainly on my agenda! That price includes a shipping label that sends the core back at no additional charge. No sales tax for most states.

Keith:cool: