OT- Sad about War.
 

The most important thing in the next few weeks is not SVXes, but war in Iraq. I believe that war in Iraq is inevitable and will start around Mar. 15th. Eventually someone will type a post on this subject so I thought I should start it off and let my feelings be known.
First, let me tell you of my political leanings. I am a conservative Republican in the Barry Goldwater tradition. I did not vote for G.W. Bush or Al Gore. I thought that both were as*h*les. I did vote for GW's dad.

I'm am very saddened by the current administrations head long rush to start a war in Iraq. I am against this policy. I am always against a policy of sending our best young men & women (now) into harms way to clean up a mess started by politicians in Wash., DC 30+/- years ago. Many of these youngsters in our armed services, those in the Iraqi military and ordinary Iraqi civilians will lose lives, body parts and mind parts. I feel really sorry for the conscripted youngsters in the Iraqi Army because they will be facing much better weapons and they will not be allowed to surrender this time. If they try to surrender, they will be shot.

I am also angry. Why is it that our military always has to go in and clean up the mess created by the CIA and our politicians? Make no mistake about it. The CIA financed the Bath party in Iraq and pushed them into power. They did this to create a strong Iraq to counter Iran.

Since WW II, we (the USA) have been setting up pupet dictators all over the world to help us counter "problems". Eventually the pupets break the strings and give us grief. Ho Chi Minh, Ferdinand Marcos, Idi Amin, Gen. Noriegga are just some examples. Who can forget Afghan rebels shotting down Soviet helicopters with American made, shoulder fired, Stinger missles. I trace this policy back to John Forster Dulles (Sec. of State under Eisenhower). It's about time we thought up a new policy.

As much as I am against sending our military into Iraq, I am a realist. Sadam Hussein and his goons must be removed. I say, make the CIA take him out. For once, make them have to clean up their own sh*t. Give the UN inspectors all the time in the world, and while they are in Iraq and keep sending in assasination teams until the job is done. If we don't have the smarts or people to do this job right, then we can always hire someone (please...not the low bidder) that is qualified. Suggestion: the Isrealis & Germans have good people.


There, I said my two cents worth. Please pray for all the people on both sides that will be killed or injured by this war.

Larry III

Agreed on the prayers but if search history just a tad, you'll see that this is in our species nature and didn't start in the 50's. Without mecenarial action, the USA would be New England-one reason to still embrace the French.

Call me crazy but I still think there won't be war.

Shouldn't this thread be in a different category?

OT War with Iraq
 

Well written there Larry although I surely hope that war is not inevitable. If it is we just started a new version of the cold war. We will have single handedly weakened the UN to the point that it is useless, alienated many of the "friends" throughout the world that we need to count on. The "friends" that we don't alienate will complain about what they have lost $$$ wise from our endevours resulting in Marshall Plan size aide packages to these countries. Worst of all this war on terrorism will reach a new level. If 75% of Britains are against action without the US what do you think the percentage of Kuwaitee citizians is? Jordan, Sadia Arabia, Pakastan?

I too am very saddened by our double standard to weapons. The U.S. has the largest stockpile of useable bioweapons and is second in the world in chemical weapons (behind Russia). Both the U.S. and Russia signed agreements banning the use and pocession of such weapons. Iraq has never signed such a treaty and is not bound to the agreements that both the US and Russia have not fulfilled. Yes you can make the arguement that Sadam used such weapons against his neighbors and his own people but looking at it closer he used chemical weapons in the Iran-Iraq war (a war that the US encouraged him to undertake). Once that the Iranians began to regain their territory after initial losses. He also used them against a rebeling people during the conflict to suppress his opposition during a time of war. Anybody remember Kent State, the internment of Japanese-American citizens, the blacklists surrounding suspected communists?

In essence Saddam did the same thing that the US has done and continues to do. Analizes his best bang for the buck and what will allow his forces to minimize losses. Isn't that what our plan was when we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan? Isn't that why we developed these smart bombs? I'm sure if he or any other country had such resources they would develop such weapons as to protect themselves as well but without money how do you protect yourself? You must rely on chemical and bioweapons which are very very cheap to produce and use.

No, I never though Saddam was a good man. He was exiled from his own country in the late 60's for attempting to overthrow the very tolerate and progressive government (for the middle east at least- a Christian could vote which is something that Isreal has yet to allow to this day). How did he get back and develop a power base? With the help of the US who wanted more oil in the 70's so that we could continue to drive our 7 mpg boats around.

I have yet to see a benefit to this war. There are no plans for a post Saddam Iraq other than a democratic style government. Keep in mind that there is not a democratic government in the middle east. Israel is not since over 40% of the population cannot vote likewise with Turkey. Do you really think that installing one democracy in the region will create more stability in the middle east or will it just cause the friends we relied on to support the war to ask us to help suppress the revolutions against their dictatorships.

That said, I have many friends who have left or are soon heading to the middle east and they have my full support and thoughts. But where is the need to kill another 100-200,000 Iraqees when all we need is one shot? Its not like we are/have gone along with the treaties we've entered into, the UN governing body, or moral agreements we have made all along so why should we pretend to now?

Great self deprecating naivate Bene. A little too much liberal media perhaps in the diet?

Wow, this is not a cold war, youand I are currently in a terroristic war. Perhaps if the winds were strong enough to blow the scent of our burning countrymen your way like it did here, you'd have more of an appreciation of that.

The point of having weapons ostensibly, is that we a re responsible enough to not use them(isn't mustard gas a chemical weapon? Guess Saddam wasn't the 1st then.) And you're comparing Kent state, McCarthyism and internment with Saddams gassing his populace? Isn't the internet great to be able to express such twisted logic? Stunning really.

And chemical weapons are as ethical as nuclear? Astonishing ignorance. Which would you chose personally given only the 2 choices? And we've used them, oh, say, that's right ONCE! And only the first time. Saddam has used them and will continue to until someone takes them away from him or him away from them.

Saddam not have $$? His government is wealthy yet he starves his people to death. Where do you think his weapons come from? If he had our means, he would have netroned whichever western nations he was capable of by now.

Please don't EVEN come close to mentioning this government in the same sentence with Saddams. I'm sure you've stopped to consider that you and your family would have been vivisected for just thinking your viewspoints in Saddamland.

And when has it become the goal of the nation to appease the wishes of foreign states? THIS is the country that moves the world albeit with the consumption of unsustainable resources. THIS is the country that the world relies upon with little /no recognition or even consternation from the beneficiaries. And THIS conflict is turning out even more dissonance from our "UN Allies". I live 30 miles away from the UN and would love to see it sent back to the Hague for all it's worth. It was an emasculated eunich of a governing body for decades long before this administration. You're shortsightedness failed to recall the years of discord within the UN on most issues. The best use I've had for it was a 1st grade school trip.


And none of us in here should ever pontificate about oil/resource useage driving our 16mpg compacts around, dude. And as an aside, most of my friends are Jewish NY liberals, so there. Godspeed to all those involved out there.

Being 5 blocks from Ground Zero on 9/11, my views are slightly skewed, but I'm all for any war that will rid us of such evil leaders as Osama Bin-Laden, Saddam, etc.

Maybe if the Eifel Tower got flattened the French would feel differently. Should we wait until after they send a nuke over here before we do something?

-mike

O/T Saddened by war
 

Yes Jeff an eye for an eye has been done to death. It only results in more dead. There is no right answer in regards to what happened on Sept 11th but how many other innocent people must die in the name of revenge? I'm sure that over 3000 INOCENT Afghans went to an early grave in the name of freedom. An supreme isolationist additude will not help us in this type of world. It will only continue to errode what credibility we have left. Yes I am quite liberal in some aspects but then again I don't resort to classifying others with different views than mine. EVERYONE is entitled to his/her opinion and I feel that the facts are there to support my beliefs otherwise I simply would remain quite until I have the facts. It is doubtful that there would be a Saddam Hussein in power if it wasn't for us. It is likewise doubtful that BinLadin would be around or nearly as strong today had we not abandoned the Afgans after we stopped another domino. To me it doesn't matter what method of weapon is used the end result is the same someone will be dead.

Responsible enough not to use them? We produced chemical weapons for both sides during WWI before we entered the war and then after entering the war we had to quams about using them. Up until the late 70s we were developing and testing (there are documented cases that testing was done on our own militiary personnel) both chemical and bio weapons. You must also remember that even if every country in the world had an equal gross domestic product the U.S. would still be the largest supplier of weapons in the world. Obviously, if we are producing such weapons and supplying them to other countries some of these weapons are going to get into the wrong hands. Heck we can't even keep weapons out of the hands of criminals in our own country despite having more laws on the books than any other country limiting the sale of guns.

I am an American and I am proud to be an American but I like everyone else on this board is a human being first. If there was no America we would still be human beings and I treat every other person like a human being. The whole point of the UN is that it is an organization of human beings (flawed just as everything that involves people) that is designed to settle disputes and act as a governing body of all nations. To disrespect the UN is to disrespect the rights and beliefs of all other nations and human beings that might not agree with your ideals.

Just as you say that the world relies on America. America relies on the world even more. When was the last time you thanked the South Korean sneaker maker for your last pair of shoes?

As someone who poccesses a BA degree in History and a Masters Degree in History with an emphasis on Middle Eastern Studies I feel quite qualified as far as the basis for the facts that I have laid down in regards to this conficted region of the world and would be more than happy to provide sources for an and all of the facts which I have presented.

All excellent posts until mine ;)

I agree that this is our own past government's meddling mess that we are trying to fix. However, I find it very interesting that Saddam hates us so much even though we provided him with all the means to get where he is now...

I will never understand hatred for the sake of hatred. I don't know why some countries hate us, I don't know why we hate some countries. But when hatred turns to violence, something has to be done.

Iraq has supplied al quida with weapons and funding, even the slow moving UN will admit that, so now what do we do? Wait until there is another terrorist attack? I say no. Our attack on Iraq may not be entirely fair, but we need to protect ourselves. The terrorist attacks will continue and probably get worse, but if we tolerate them and the people that supply them, they will never stop.

I just hope that when this is over, things are reorganized better than in past decades and we are not back in this same place in another 20 years.

Doug

My country, right or wrong.
 

I see. Since we have these weapons, we should use them, right?
After you've blown up every two-bit dictator (and Larry III is right, almost every tyrant since WWII has been 'our guy') and hundreds of thousands of innocent people, what then?
I wonder what it is about the third world that makes them hate us so?
How much would it cost to have what you could call The Marshall Plan, version 2.0. It would work like this, spend enough money to ensure every man, woman and child on earth has enough food to eat, enough clean water to drink, a safe dry place to sleep, protection for his family, electricity and the internet. Sit back and wait 10 years and pretty soon, nobody will think driving an airplane full of innocent people into a building full of innocent people will accomplish anything. They'll be able to decide for thenselves.
Some in this group are old enough to remember anoth.........****, what good is this? Forget it.

My country.. is right and wrong...
 

I’ve thought a lot about this and don't know if this is the right place to post this or not.

I have very mixed feelings on this. The information that we get from both sides of the argument MUST be taken with a grain of salt. A middle road MUST be taken. Veering off to either side could result in more death than just 3000 people in one building or 3000 in small mud huts, hospitals and mobile chemical weapons factories.

On one hand if we don't show a strong hand (saber rattling) an unquestioned mad man, that has already shown his lack of respect for life will continue to kill his countrymen and maybe others close to him. ... Wait!!... Right now that IS the only hand... If some country doesn't shut this @sshole down he will kill and rape and terrorize the region he controls. Right now the threat of the US coming in and reorganizing his government is the only thing keeping this guy from using chemical, biological and maybe even nuclear weapons against his "Enemies". I usually sit on the fence (especially after Vietnam) about the rightness or wrongness of war, but right now, who else is in a position to correct the situation in this region? Is Russia going to go in with peacekeeping forces? India? China? South Africa? Who if not us right now... Is our government snow white in it's intent? Obviously not! Whose government is? We do, however, have one thing that no other county in the world has right now.... a mandate from the UN. Unanimous no. But still there are more nations with our intent than against.

It will fall to us to show how we handle the endgame this time.... Will we occupy and dictate or assist in creating popular government? Will we do a European end to WWII or the Japanese version? Japan was organized along democratic principals under one leader (Macarthur) and Europe was spilt up and governed by 3 separate and opposing Ideals (USSR, US and GB)

As a country with a republican (not the party but the style) of government, and a congress that can and should take action against any wrong doing by the executive branch of the government, we as a nation have a duty at this juncture to take whatever action we can to stabilize an area that we, by our actions have destabilized. The executive branch is entrusted with "Foreign policy." They should be allowed to work to a solution here. If we don't show that we are ready to go in and enforce the UN's resolution to help the people being terrorized by their own leader, he will continue to kill and expand his madness. If we(the allies) had recognized Hitler for what he was in 1937, rather than maintain our isolationism, WWII could (who knows?) have been nothing more than a police action that would have cast an entirely different light on the cold war and where we are today....

Just a ramblin.....

On a lighter note:
 

War does bring in good TV ratings.

On a serious note:

This is nothing more than trying to secure oil for the oil hungry US. Nothing more. Nothing less (well, junior trying to finish off what senior Bush did not finish).

There is a great chance that Saudi Arabia will not be the US's allie for too long. Since "Desert Fox," Saudis told US not to bring in more forces through SA so we know that SA is unstable and the political tides WILL change in the near future. So where do we get cheap oil? Iraq has billions of barrels sitting. Why not make peace with them. No you can't? Oh yes, we are not supposed to be happy with them so tell CIA to tell Saddam to be pissed at the US, we'll go in and remove his power (so to speak) and exile Saddam. Put in another puppet power that will sell us oil cheap. We are happy even if Saudi Arabia falls into the bad hands for now. We'll deal with Saudi Arabia at a later date by sending in troops to Iraq (by then should be friendly) and reverse the situation again.



Just my 4 cents. 2 is not enough this time.

L

Doug,

You are right and wrong. If it is not Iraq, it will be another country. How did the money get there? We (US) gave them. Through oil purchases, other trades, and many other things we do not get to know about. IMO, Al Quida, Hamas or any other organization are powered by US at one point or another to keep the world the way it is. If it is a peaceful world, you can't find scape goat. On the other hand, with the economy down, you can blame it all on the terrorist attack.

Come on.. This is just one (well a couple of incidents). Look at Israel. It gets bombed every other day. Life sucks but it goes on. I am still saying that US made them(terrorists) and strategically placed them where they are to divert attention from other things. Are we *****ing at the war now or increasing gas prices? How about the unemployment issues? How tollways sucks. you get the picture right?

L

I am with you on this.

I think that in about 1000 to 10,000 years when we are finally traveling around the universe and meeting other life forms, the Earth will be known as the home of the Klingons. Not a very happy thought for future generations. As you say look at our history. We kill and we make war in spite of the fact that we were all created by the same God, the creator spirit of the universe.

This nation was formed as "one nation under God" or at least I think it was the original intent.

I am totally apalled at the tought of killing another person that was created as I was created. The idea I have, when the world is faced with a person like Hitler or Hussein, is to pray that he will learn to love. :) Not a very popular opinion.

Well any way that my thoughts on this never ending story that I do hope will end someday.

Re: On a lighter note:
 

Yup, it's known as securing our way of life. If you don't like our way of life, don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out...

Seriously, everyone whines about a "war for oil" but yet they'll be the first to complain when they pay $10/gal for gas. Generally war is used to continue our way of life, our freedoms, etc. Any threat to that is a reason to use our military to our advantage.

-mike

I take it that you feel that we brought the 9/11 attacks on ourselves so we should live with it? Fawk that! I guess you didn't know anyone in the area or anyone killed on 9/11 you heartless ass!

-mike

No I do not know any killed. I have been to ground zero. I do not consider myself heartless. I do consider myself to be much more open minded and much more in touch with the international arena than most Americans. I am not saying live with it. However, people are taking it as if the 9/11 attack is personal. No! Terrorist attacks are not personal. They are not personal attacks. They are aimed toward the Governments and such and kill a ton of people to make the point. It happens all over the world. Just because it happen in your back yard does not mean that it's more important than other attacks. Do you even know about the bombing in the Philippines this morning?

I think I lived in Middle East too long and my feelings are immune now. Until you walked in a mine field to bring relief aid to refugees and make database to log the international war crimes so that that can be used in the Hague, don't tell me heartless. I have seen too many people in the world that need better life than even the homeless person in the US.

Lwin


EDIT: DO I think we brought 9/11 attacks on ourselves? In a way, YES! We trained the bastards. We gave them arms. We gave them money. We even taught them how to hide.

For some unknown reason, we can never find the head of the organizations. Look at Osama Bin Laden. Where is he? What about Saddam during the Desert Storm? We had the forces. We can't even find the sucker to kill him. We kill him then, this current war that we are talking about would not need to take place at all.