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-   -   Tuning the EG33 While Keeping it N/A- Part II (https://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=29048)

SilverSpear 10-19-2005 05:29 AM

Tuning the EG33 While Keeping it N/A- Part II
 
(I reserve its tuning PART I for Chike ;) )

Ok guys, here it goes:

You all know now that sometimes I overdose myself into upgrading our SVX, even in a way turning out to be imaginary and not applicable… such as the copper intake :( :D . Well at least I didn’t loose momentum in this issue and I will keep trying and trying until I reach my objective. I need to tune our EG33 to the maximum possible without any booster. I know Chike is attempting a 270Hp “secret” project with an N/A EG33 without messing with the internals and I am very intrigued to find out how is he gonna do it. I also contacted Harvey (oab_au) and he advised me to wait until Chike’s project is done. But though, I thought about the whole issue and decided to start this thread and keep it in parallel with Chike’s project until it is revealed. It’s good to have two tuning setups for our EG33 while it is kept N/A, right?

Ok, what I have in mind is this: I am willing to rebuild my engine according to specific internals configurations, and get all the internals either new from the dealership or from another source. Stuff like regrinds on cams, forged pistons, steel billet rods from Crower, rings pins and locks from Deves or Crower, adjustable cam gears from Paeco… etc.

What I know so far is that the whole issue is mainly related to the cams setup and for that I have emailed many companies in the business of tuning and have advised me different configurations:

Some of U remember deruvian’s thread about the Bumpstick discussion:

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/show...ight=bumpstick

Garrett mentioned that the SVX’s stock cams configuration is the following:

Intake: Opens 2* B-TDC, closes 54* A-BDC, centered @ 116* A-TDC, 236* duration and 7.00mm lift
Exhaust: Opens 55* B-BDC, closes 9* A-TDC, centered @ 67* A-BDC, 244* duration and 8.00mm lift.

He also stated that for an aggressive turbo application the following configuration must be achieved:

Intake: Opens 8* B-TDC, closes 60* A-BDC, centered @ 116* A-TDC, 248* duration and 8.00mm lift
Exhaust: Opens 62* B-BDC, closes 18* A-TDC, centered @ 68* A-BDC, 260* duration and 8.6mm lift.

And for a N/A application:

Intake: Opens 2* B-TDC, closes 58* A-BDC, centered @ 118* A-TDC, 240* duration; 8.0mm lift.
Exhaust: Opens 59* B-BDC, closes 9* A-TDC, centered @ 65* A-BDC, 248* duration; 8.6mm lift.

As for Chris of EngineLogics he gave me the following setup:

Intake: Opens 4* B-TDC, close 43* A-BDC, centered @ 110* A-TDC, 225 - 228* duration and 9.6mm lift
Exhaust: Opens 45* B-BDC, close 9* A-TDC, centered @ 108* A-TDC, 235* duration and 8 – 9mm lift
He also suggested a proper port job on the cylinder heads as well as the installation of 1.0 mm oversize valves.

As for Scott from DeltaCams suggested only a modification of the intake cams with 193* duration ???? (not logical for a tuneup…) but I found out later with the help of my good friend Garrett (Deruvian) that it is least costly and better only to do the intake cams…


Above the cams’ grinding, a nice exhaust setup and intake system will do the job. I also plan to install a light flywheels, Z32 MAF and the SAFC fuel computer unit if it is compatible with OBD-I ECU …

I am not a guy who likes to be the First in accomplishing something, this is why I posted this thread publicly with no intention to keep it for myself knowing that another member may take the result and do it himself before I do. I just wanted to do a brainstorming thread where each member can contribute a little bit from his info and contacts and give his opinion of what he thinks/can be added or done otherwise to tune the SVX to its max.

I have PM’ed many members (especially Garrett) in this forum about many info I posted here, it was just for me not to post anything stupid for I learned and still learning great deal about mechanics but still missing a lot others.

OPINIONS??? ADDs-Ups ??

:) :) :) :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Chiketkd 10-19-2005 06:50 AM

Danny,

Look for a full write-up on my n/a 270hp project over the Thanksgiving Holiday (when I'll have some free time). However, understand I won't be hitting 270+hp by then as the ECUTune Stage 2v4 won't be released for the OBDII cars yet.

-Chike

SilverSpear 10-19-2005 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiketkd
Danny,

Look for a full write-up on my n/a 270hp project over the Thanksgiving Holiday (when I'll have some free time). However, understand I won't be hitting 270+hp by then as the ECUTune Stage 2v4 won't be released for the OBDII cars yet.

-Chike

Looking forward to it ;) , but still a figure near 270hp is still an achievement by itself. :cool:

TomsSVX 10-19-2005 10:07 AM

Danny, do you understand all of what you wrote? Until you understand why it would be good to retard the angle and why there should be a little more duration and about 1mm extra lift, I do not think you should go for this project. If you don't know what you are installing, how do you plan on tunning it??

Tom

Chiketkd 10-19-2005 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSpear
but still a figure near 270hp is still an achievement by itself. :cool:

True, but definitely very attainable with 3.3L of displacement to work with. I'd like to make roughly 272bhp which will put my EG33 at the same power level as the 3.6L flat six used in '93-'98 993 Carrera.

-Chike

cdigerlando 10-19-2005 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiketkd
True, but definitely very attainable with 3.3L of displacement to work with. I'd like to make roughly 272bhp which will put my EG33 at the same power level as the 3.6L flat six used in '93-'98 993 Carrera.

-Chike

Cams are definitely uncharted territory, but I think necessary to make an N/A application really effective. If you doing the rods and strengthening the valvetrain, you can very easily acheive a higher rev limit (more HP). I think that should definitly be a goal of your project. I also think that you will be avoiding a lot of the cooling issues that I am going to have with a turbo application by sticking with N/A. That is going to be uncharted territory for me.

I would definitly recommend that you do some sort of engine mangement as a baseline to any work that you are going to start. Perhaps a used Tec II. I can help you with configuring that if you are really interested in that route. I would also recommend an adjustable fuel pressure regulator with some custom chip tuning, if you can get that done on a dyno somewhere. Don't just do like a lot of folks seem to do with this car, which is to arbitrarily throw more fuel in without being able to adjust the timing.

In fact, I think there may be a lot to gain just by doing a cold air intake, exhaust, more fuel, and engine management. I would bet that you could reach 270 with these modifications alone.

Then head, cam, and bottom end improvements could be done to stage improvements so you can really determine the limits of the engine. My gut feeling is that the engine is so well balanced that rev limits in the low 8000 range would be possible on the stock bottom end, naturally aspirated. That is just a "feeling" though and not a fact. I have heard of tuners pumping out 400+ HP reliably on a blown stock motor (bottom end and heads) with race fuel.

I'm real excited to see how the N/A project works out. Good Luck!

SilverSpear 10-19-2005 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomsSVX
Danny, do you understand all of what you wrote? Until you understand why it would be good to retard the angle and why there should be a little more duration and about 1mm extra lift, I do not think you should go for this project. If you don't know what you are installing, how do you plan on tunning it??

Tom

Come on Tom, give me a break!!! At first i admit I was ignorant about engine configuration and its cams duration but i have been reading many articles about it especially HowStuffWorks... And believe me i am generally considered as a clever guy (Current MBA GPA= 3.62). I grasp things easily and it was just a matter of time until i get the hang of it.

I had just a problem with parts denomination and these configurations. The configurations I learned, and still to be some parts den.

Adding to that, I triggered this thread not just for myself, but rather wanted to be a group discussion for everyone's benefit. If all agree on something, i would do it, otherwise I simply won't.

I admit i don't have Harvey's or svxfiles' knowledge, but i am learning fast... so fast that i will beat my SVX even after tuning it :D :D

Peace TOM (mmm, damn about time, hein?)

SilverSpear 10-19-2005 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdigerlando
Cams are definitely uncharted territory, but I think necessary to make an N/A application really effective. If you doing the rods and strengthening the valvetrain, you can very easily acheive a higher rev limit (more HP). I think that should definitly be a goal of your project. I also think that you will be avoiding a lot of the cooling issues that I am going to have with a turbo application by sticking with N/A. That is going to be uncharted territory for me.

I would definitly recommend that you do some sort of engine mangement as a baseline to any work that you are going to start. Perhaps a used Tec II. I can help you with configuring that if you are really interested in that route. I would also recommend an adjustable fuel pressure regulator with some custom chip tuning, if you can get that done on a dyno somewhere. Don't just do like a lot of folks seem to do with this car, which is to arbitrarily throw more fuel in without being able to adjust the timing.

In fact, I think there may be a lot to gain just by doing a cold air intake, exhaust, more fuel, and engine management. I would bet that you could reach 270 with these modifications alone.

Then head, cam, and bottom end improvements could be done to stage improvements so you can really determine the limits of the engine. My gut feeling is that the engine is so well balanced that rev limits in the low 8000 range would be possible on the stock bottom end, naturally aspirated. That is just a "feeling" though and not a fact. I have heard of tuners pumping out 400+ HP reliably on a blown stock motor (bottom end and heads) with race fuel.

I'm real excited to see how the N/A project works out. Good Luck!

As i have understook from Chike is that he will not be touching his engine's internals, but i would. The only thing is that i will be going in an uncharted territory with cams and this is scaring me. When i first saw Deruvian's thread, i was curious about it (I remember that feeling when i first saw how fiberglass was made) and I felt that more work can be done on our engine for us to enjoy better accelerations. Furthermore i can hear the EG33 whispering in my ears asking for "Viagra" :D :D .

When i saw LAN constructing his Stage III setup i was hoping he can go the same road with the N/A application. But he never did so far even though he can through dyno testing, figure out what cam specs he can use for the ultimate setup.

So I decided to ask for the help of all the guys over here to contribute to the success of this idea, because I think most of you do not mind of getting more out of the EG33.

And Lando, a maximum of 320Hp on N/A engine is deemed more reasonable to me than 400Hp. I have been searching to see how the 1997 BMW M3 engine works, what distinguishes it from our engine... the M3 engine is a 3.2L 24V and ours is 3.3L 24V... and there is a difference of 90Hp!!! so I think that we can achieve the same figure as the M3...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiketkd
True, but definitely very attainable with 3.3L of displacement to work with. I'd like to make roughly 272bhp which will put my EG33 at the same power level as the 3.6L flat six used in '93-'98 993 Carrera.

-Chike

mmm, r u quoting something related to this Carrera's setup? :rolleyes: ;) :D

SVXRide 10-19-2005 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSpear
(I reserve its tuning PART I for Chike ;) )

Ok guys, here it goes:

*snip* I know Chike is attempting a 270Hp “secret” project with an N/A EG33 without messing with the internals and I am very intrigued to find out how is he gonna do it. I also contacted Harvey (oab_au) and he advised me to wait until Chike’s project is done. But though, I thought about the whole issue and decided to start this thread and keep it in parallel with Chike’s project until it is revealed. It’s good to have two tuning setups for our EG33 while it is kept N/A, right?

*snip*:


Okay, Chike, fess up! We're not willing to wait until Thanksgiving! ;) :p
-Bill

TomsSVX 10-19-2005 01:32 PM

no way, not until you fess up first!!

Tom

SilverSpear 10-19-2005 01:42 PM

I was thinking, how much the valves can be lifted without interfierence with the pistons? anybody measured it before?

Chiketkd 10-19-2005 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SVXRide
Okay, Chike, fess up! We're not willing to wait until Thanksgiving! ;) :p
-Bill

If you want a peak under my hood, I want a peak under yours Bill... ;)

-Chike (N.B. All of Danny's statements are speculations at this point...)

cdigerlando 10-19-2005 02:59 PM

You make a good comparison with the M3 engine. Very comparible. The 97 engine, at least the american version, was only a bit more than ours. I believe about 243 HP. The difference between the 2001 (330 HP) engine and ours is that the rev limit is extremely high. The torque is close to the old engine. Similar gains as the S2000 made with their 2 liter N/A little beast, making lots of HP and very little torque.

The M3 is an all round well engineered car. A lot of the performance numbers come from properly matching the engine to the transmission as well. The 1997 M3 was faster than the SVX due mostly to its weight and 2WD manual transmission. Then again the WRX with its AWD manual is as fast as the 97. The 2001 up are beasts! You will need an STi to compete.

As for discussions related to cam changes and what performance enhancements you would recieve, I am not qualified to answer that, nor am I even able to give you a good starting point. It sounds like you have done your research. If you have another vehicle to drive, and you can afford to play with this car, then I think it would be fun to do cams. I guess the big question for you is "do you have the resources to do these experiments". The tough thing about the SVX is that there are so many other cars that are so much easier to tune, because there is a lot more interest, present company exluded. It's cost effective for tuners to experiment with M3s and WRXs and not SVXs. Only when they want like 1000 HP do they look at our platform. The road, even for race companies, has sounded long and fraut with failure. So be prepared. I would definitly contact rebello racing and see if you can get a rebuild from them. See what they propose for changes. I could not get them to tell me what they did to the engines to keep them from blowing up under high power. Perhaps you can. At least they have experience working with these engines. You could even specify what types of pistions and rods you want. I know I am.

Good Luck

mbtoloczko 10-19-2005 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverSpear
I was thinking, how much the valves can be lifted without interfierence with the pistons? anybody measured it before?

If you want to shoot for 270+ NA HP, I say forget about keeping a non-interference design. Go for as much valve lift as the springs can handle, and make sure that your timing belt and water pump are in good condition.

SilverSpear 10-19-2005 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiketkd
If you want a peak under my hood, I want a peak under yours Bill... ;)

-Chike (N.B. All of Danny's statements are speculations at this point...)

Is there a competition concerning boosting the SVX's i dunno about? the peaking thing? :confused: --> :D :D

And yes all my statements are speculations at this point but i am eager to make them a reality... let's just discuss and see where we end up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdigerlando
You make a good comparison with the M3 engine. Very comparible. The 97 engine, at least the american version, was only a bit more than ours. I believe about 243 HP. The difference between the 2001 (330 HP) engine and ours is that the rev limit is extremely high. The torque is close to the old engine. Similar gains as the S2000 made with their 2 liter N/A little beast, making lots of HP and very little torque.

The M3 is an all round well engineered car. A lot of the performance numbers come from properly matching the engine to the transmission as well. The 1997 M3 was faster than the SVX due mostly to its weight and 2WD manual transmission. Then again the WRX with its AWD manual is as fast as the 97. The 2001 up are beasts! You will need an STi to compete.

As for discussions related to cam changes and what performance enhancements you would recieve, I am not qualified to answer that, nor am I even able to give you a good starting point. It sounds like you have done your research. If you have another vehicle to drive, and you can afford to play with this car, then I think it would be fun to do cams. I guess the big question for you is "do you have the resources to do these experiments". The tough thing about the SVX is that there are so many other cars that are so much easier to tune, because there is a lot more interest, present company exluded. It's cost effective for tuners to experiment with M3s and WRXs and not SVXs. Only when they want like 1000 HP do they look at our platform. The road, even for race companies, has sounded long and fraut with failure. So be prepared. I would definitly contact rebello racing and see if you can get a rebuild from them. See what they propose for changes. I could not get them to tell me what they did to the engines to keep them from blowing up under high power. Perhaps you can. At least they have experience working with these engines. You could even specify what types of pistions and rods you want. I know I am.

Good Luck

As far as i know the 95 M3 engine was able of 286HP then upgraded two years later to 321Hp...
As for the SVX engine, i want to have the agreement of most of the knowledgeable members advising me about certain criteria because i am more than willing to open up my engine and do the necessary mods. I will contact rebello racing and post the feedback...

thanks again Chuck.


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