Engine won't crank over some times.
 

Okay Ikke ask me how I solved my starter problem and I thought it best that we work his problem through on the forum so it may help other. I think it was Trevor who said start at the begining and look at the problem from the each step and logically.
The wiring is very simple to the starter and should be easy to trace the problem through. I need to understand if the car is totally dead when you try to start it or it just clicks?
Tony

Greetings Tony,

You are taking the correct approach. I hope you have volt meter, or a multi meter with a voltage scale to cover twelve volts, the nearest range usually being twenty volts? A cheap meter ex China/Asia etc is fine.

Make a test lamp. A twelve volt bulb/globe in a holder/fitting of any sort with wires attached will do, and the higher the wattage of the bulb the better. The idea is to draw enough current to show a voltage drop in the supply circuit. If possible terminate the leads with a pair of crocodile/alligator clips, big enough to attach to automotive size terminals.

!. If you have a meter, test the battery voltage, which should be slightly over twelve volts. If you have no meter, you should be able to confirm a good battery by turning on your headlights.

2. Connect the test lamp across the battery and observe how bright it is.
Try to start the car and see if the lamp dims excessively. If you have a meter, measure the fall in voltage.

Identify and access both the solenoid connection and main battery connection on the starter motor.

3. Attach the test lamp to ground and the solenoid terminal. Try to start the car and observe if the light is as bright as when direct across the battery.

4. If good and bright, connect it to the main starter connection and again observe.

In all of this you will be testing for intermittent operation as you have reported, so you must do several tests and demonstrate the fault.

I hope you have become annoyed at me covering everything so simply and are way ahead of me. ;)

Report back on each test and exactly what you have been able to learn. The next step will be to locate where a voltage drop is occurring, provided you have been able to prove same. If not, the starter motor will be suspect.

Good hunting, Trevor. :)

Edit P.S. I appreciate that with everything not easy to get at, you have a more difficult job than I have in simply giving instructions. !!!!!! *<)

Trevor I have notice a couple of different sysptoms which should help guide us to close in on the problem. What we need to know is the following:-
1 When the car doesn't start hold the ignation in the crank position and look at the dash lights. At this time the radio, clock etc lights should be out but the dash lights should be still bright indicating the ECU still has power.
I expect that we can use this and the cruise control to tell the problem eg if the neutral/park switch in the transmission is causing the problem you can tell by putting the cruise control on and turning the ignation on with the engine stopped and then move the gear stick from neturel/park into a gear. The cruse control relay under the dash above the glove box will click in and out as the gear change is moved from a gear to nuetral.
Tony

Hello Tony and Trevor and thank youvery much for the support shown, please forgive my limits on technical terms.
As Tony wrote, upon attempting ignition, all the lights in and outside the car go dim, but the dash is still fine.
And doing the "cruise control test", everything is as Tony reported, i hear distinct "clicks" when shifting on neutral. I have not taken the time to do the full electrical pathway test as Trevor suggested, but if needed to gather more info, i will.
As i posted in the other thread (strange electrical problem) the battery is new and works perfect, and the electric starter has been replaced less than a year ago, without solving the problem.
Hopefully with the two posts i provided you with all the info you needed in order to be able to help me, but i'm ready to do more studies and reasearches until i find the solution.
Thank you very much,
Ikke

N.B. As has been pointed out here many times by both Beav and myself, a high impedance volt meter will not show up resistance in a circuit which will otherwise affect an item which will draw current. There IS every reason to use a test light.

You say "upon attempting ignition, all the lights in and outside the car go dim, but the dash is still fine."

I presume you are saying that, if you have all the lights in and outside the car when switched on, they all go dim when you turn the key to operate the starter. If so, this is a clear indication that full battery volts are not available on line, when a substantial current drain is applied. Faulty battery, not fully charged or poor battery earth or positive connection are the obvious causes. Others include faulty fuse box connections, faulty fuse link connections.

What do you mean by "but the DASH is still fine" i.e. without the main lights on? Do Gauges operate OK, dash illumination not dim, trouble lights normal. I can only surmise that lighting requiring a low current is not affected.

I gather the problem is intermittent, please confirm, and if so report any repeatable conditions which produce the problem.

Please understand that an exact and accurate picture is called for, if one is to assist rather than a convoluted thread of information. ;)

Hello Tony and Trevor,
i perfectly agree when you ask for precision in describing the problem, because it clearly quickens a lot the way to solution.
I promise i do my best in order to provide you with accurate and detailed info, if i fail, it's mainly due to my limited knowledge on the subject.
The car sometimes starts, sometimes doesn't, the problem is definitely intermittent, going from no problem at all, to spending fifteen minutes in order for the engine to start running. In either case, as soon as the electric starter turns on, the engine immediately follows, showing no difficulty in starting. From what i gather, the starter for some reasons isn't always receiving the current to start. When it fails to start, i can hear a distinct "clack" coming from under the hood (i took a picture showing the noise origin area, i don't know if that may be useful, if so, i'll post it).
The only association with increased number of attempts to succeed in the starting procedure, is with heat. Especially during summertime, day and night, after driving for more then 20-30 minutes, as the engine takes much longer to cool off, in the whole hour following the moment i parked, it takes many many attempts to get the engine start. (filling up gas in summer is very embarassing, as i'm stuck at the petrol station and can't start the car).

As for the tests: I just went down and, since it's night, i could see the change in light intensity much better than yesterday. When trying to run the engine, the radio, clock, A/C panel lights all go dim;on the other hand, the headlights don't, not at all, as the dash illumination doesn't and all the trouble lights are seemingly unaffected.
The cruise control provokes a "click" (actually two different clicks) when shifting from gears on to neutral and from neutral to the gears. the click is located exactly where Tony described (under dashboard above the govebox).

As for now, that's all.
Thanks,
Ikke

Ikke, Trevor,
The ignition system operates in this way.
When the key is turned to crank engine all other systems in the car are shut down on power except the power to the solinode and the ECU. You can test this by putting you car in gear and holding the key in crank mode you will notice same effect that Ikke is getting.
My suggestion is next time the car has trouble starting hold the key in Crank position and move the Auto gear stick around. If the key is on the crank position and the netural or park is playing up in the car it will start.
Trevor I understand the problem and need to use the light I just slid the wire back slightly on the starter and put a metter on it when it was trying to start. Thats when I found under load the voltage was dropping to 7-8 V if it went over 9 the car would start.
Ikke go do the gear stick trick.
Tony

Ikke just read the other thread and I will bet nickle to a dime that the alarme system is screwing you car as they have a kill relay in the system that kills the car so you can't start it. We need to find out if it works by stopping you cranking the engine so sit in the car and turn it on then try start the engine to see if it behaves any different to when it has the problem.
Tony

..This may sound a bit silly, but try tapping the starter with a hammer the next time it doesnt start. It worked well for me (For about a week)
I notced that with my ignition problem, as with yours, it was intermittent and seemed most prominent once the car warmed up
My guess is, in my case, something inside the starter (I.E. an electrical connection or the starter solonoid) was being affected by the heat expanding/contracting wires touching or the soloniod causing a stuck starter soloniod.
I have snce replaced my starter and have yet to have a problem starting the car
(Keeping it on the road, on the otherhand :( :rolleyes: )

Xt6s have had a clicking problem with starting but it is a power problem not a solinoid or brush problem as already brought up. If you know which wire runs from the ignition switch to the small wire going to the sol. on the starter (that one that has the single connector which slides onto the metal prong);) Try putting a pig tail wire from the back of this connector to the ign connector side of this same wire (it'll be the one which shows voltage only when in start). Seems that as the wiring ages sometimes not quite enough juice flows to the starter to get it moving from the ignition switch side. It only has really surfaced on the 6 but wouldn't be suprised if the X is the same as there's 2 extra cylinders to get moving under compression, same gauge wire as is used in 4 cylinder engines.

On a side note though I don't really recommend this as a long term fix as it by-passes your safety switch meaning you'll be able to start the car in drive.:D

I am aware of this but how can one account for the following reports :-

"all the lights in and outside the car go dim" (i.e. not out.)

"As for the tests: I just went down and, since it's night, i could see the change in light intensity much better than yesterday. When trying to run the engine, the radio, clock, A/C panel lights all go dim; -------on the other hand, the headlights don't, not at all, as the dash illumination doesn't and all the trouble lights are seemingly unaffected."

Probably indicates the ignition switch is faulty ??????? :confused:

The position is now completely confused, which is my reasoning to first test the basics. Unfortunately I have now no more time to spare.

Trevor please bear with me on this I am learning as well if the lights on the dash froom the ECU go dim it is a bad connection and the voltage is dropping when he trays to start the engine. If the lights stay bright when he trys to crank but nothing happens it means no power is getting to the solinod on the starter and we need to find why.
I am not sure that Ikke will be able to run all the tests with the light or metter so we need to try and get more info to help him part of the way.
Hope you guys are getting some rain over there because we aren't its 38 c today.
Tony

There could be adequate voltage at the solenoid but the solenoid contacts may not be closing properly, or be in poor condition. ( Burnt, through low contact pressure.) This is a common fault where the solenoid also engages the pinion, as there are attendant mechanical factors involved, which can result in the contacts loosing the necessary overtravel.

Alternatively there could be an open/shorted segment in the armature, poor brush connection or whatever. A reconditioned starter would not rule this out, human error not being uncommon.

The idea of first running simple basic tests, was to cover contingencies one at a time. If the solenoid and the starter main connection were proven to be receiving continuous full voltage, a solenoid contact or starter fault would be indicated as a possible problem. There are endless possibilities, but first things first, in the elimination process. Jumping from pillar to post will simply confuse things.

We have been getting too much rain. :( Sorry, sending some over would be expensive. :D

Cheers from even further down under. Trevor. ;)