ah oh. Oil on the floor.
 

My baby with only '63K miles has sprung a leak. I get small puddle on the garage floor and there is oil spray underneath. It seems the source is somewhere inside of the timing belt cover. :((

ANY advise would be helpful.

I may have overfilled the oil :rolleyes: a while back. Can that blow out seals? I don't drive real hard, mostly highway miles.

Should I take the cover off (how hard is it?) and investigate or should I just drive into the dealer?

I also have a nasty burning rubber smell at the end of my long commutes, but I haven't been able to track it down to anything in particular. Belts look fine. My plan here was to remove the belts and spin the pullies to see which one might be tight and about to die.

Any help is muchly appreaciated. I don't remember much discussion about front seal leaks or anything like that so I'm not sure what's going on.

- Jeff

I'm sure Beav can give you some better insights. It sounds like a cam seal, but, who knows. The rubber smell could be the oil from the leak getting onto the belts causing some slippage. Again, just conjecture on my part. Beav?

Slippage
 

Ya,
I asked that in another place. Can the water pump slip? I realize that cam pullies are toothed, but what about the water pump. Looking VERY carefully I see no outward signs of leaks around the cam seals. The pass side one has a slight 'stain' along it's outer edge. The driver's side looks clean. Any oil leak would show up easy. It must be under the cover.

I've got drips from the bolt 'protrutions' at the bottom of the timing belt cover. Then spray from there back. The oil pan looks clean up near it's seal. I was hoping for a simple bolt tightning.

If I take the cover off are there bolts that I can tighten, or am I just wasting my time?

I'm not sure I'm experienced enough to up to try to re-seal a cover. I KNOW I'm not for removing the timing belt.

I suppose at 63K I could just bite the bullet and have a new belt put on, water pump, and fix the leak.

Jezz... it seems awfully early for such things to be happening.

It could be anything but if you see some oil at the bottom of the cover it's doubtful that you'll find anything to repair without removing the t-belt.

A small puddle means different things to different people. Small = silver dollar? Trash can lid? A dime? The smell may be the oil blowing back and burning on the hot exhaust, not necessarily from a belt. Doesn't hurt to check both out. If I had to guess I'd say it's probably time for a t-belt, cam and crank seals. It's better to let someone that knows look though.

Beav

Thanks Beav
 

Thanks. That's what I figger'd, but I just like to see if there is some bolt I can simply tighten. T-belt's I don't mess with.

I DO have oil spray on the exhaust system thanks to this new leak, but I didn't think it would smell like burning rubber.

I'm gonna have to wait till after the holidays before I can arrange to have it brought in.

This is gonna cost huh? Dang! I just blew my $400 'Suby Dollars' on a roof top carrier for the Forester. We needed that as well, I was just hoping to use the credits for a repair. :(

oh. the puddle. Well in about two weeks I have about a tablespoon on the floor, covering about 12X4 inches.

Any reason for the seal failure now. I'm I driving too hard, was it the possible oil overfill? Stupid I know, but it was on the ramps and I wasn't paying attention. Probably only 1/2 qt over.

- Jeff

Just a "chime in" to relate something that may or may not apply to your situation. About 6-7K ago my "do-it-all" mechanic noticed some oil seepage. About 4K later, on the Snowshoe II trip, whilst straining up them West Virginny hills, I smelled oil & saw smoke rising from beneath the front exhaust area. So, two weeks ago we added a dye to an oil change (Mobile 1 10w30). I too have about a 4 inch wide stain on the garage floor. So, today we put'er on the lift. Report says some valve cover, & front cam seal leakage with "possible" other areas seeping. However, in the 3-4K change interval I'm losing a quarter quart, if that. My only concern is the belts. So far no sign of belt goo, but I haven't pulled any covers off to really inspect either. I'll probably ignore this problem until I start losing a quart a day.
I do still smell burning oil, so I just pretend it's napalm, & we all know that's a beautiful odor in the morning. The car, a '92, has 94K on the clock. I'll no doubt drag this out until I do my 100K renewal project next spring.
Ron.

And we wait
 

Thanks for the chiming in. That's more of what we need. I'm still waiting myself for a 'more approriate' time financially to get this taken care of. Maybe the leak will fix itself. Hey, we can all dream.

Meanwhile I'll keep cleaning underneath every weekend, so as not to get too much oil on those hot pipes. I'll probably go for the t-belt change in a little bit.

jcorse.....
 

it is either cam shaft seals or crankshaft seals. mine was both.

i had a small oil leak and decided to wait a couple of weeks to fix it. by the time i get to oil was all over the undercarriage of the car. i still have not gotten it all cleaned up.

parts are not the problem, they are relatively cheap. the labor costs are what is going to kill you.

:(
 

Ya, that's what I figger'd. Besides I'm going ahead with the t-belt change as well.....

it always happens......
 

when you least want it to. damn svx......love/hate relationships are no fun sometimes. ;)

Bright side
 

Ya, but think of the bright side. I could be poring that money into a 1986 Buick Century Wagon (my previous car).

The SVX is more than worth it. All cars have to be maintained. If I'm gonna drive and maintain a car (and have a job) the SVX is the obvious choice.

If it wasn't for the t-belt tangling things up I'd go at it myself. I just don't want to blow it up.

Re: it always happens......
 

I beg to differ. Love/Hate relationships are the ultimate. If everything went flawlessly 100% of the time, we'd begin to take our cars, our wives, our children, etc for granted. Through thick and thin, for better or worse, we've got to stick by 'em and simply pray that the "betters" outweigh the "worses(?)".

...or should I????
 

Is the t-belt all that nasty to do? Does it require any special tools? Is it as simple as it seems?

I suspect that the leak could be pretty 'challenging' to take care of as well.

I'm flip-flopping here. I just don't want to spend the money, but I know that each time I get into one of 'these' projects I'm wishing I paid a professional.

??
??

Re: ...or should I????
 

Maybe I'm just a wuss, but, I've tackeled some jobs with my limited toolage, and my nominal mechanical skills -- this is one I'd leave to the pros. It's not so much the T-belt as it would be the cam seals. The suby dealer has (or should have) a special alignment tool that helps to put the seal in correctly. I'd be nervous about this one --- but then, that's me.

Thanks
 

That's the just the kind of advise I need. I'm just as much a wuss. Special tooling scares me. The valve cover on my 2.5L straight four in the Buick was cake. This seems a 'bit' more challenging.

Hey, at least the service guy actually suggested that I leave the water pump alone. "I don't do those unless they leak now. Should be fine." 'course where's his risk? If it fails a month later he get's paid to repair that as well.

The way I see it the t-belt is easier than the seals. Sometimes breaking the center bolt in the cam sprockets loose can be difficult. Then again I've seen guys scratch cams or the seal lands and create permanent leaks. Worst I've seen is someone breaking the casting where the seal sits....$$$ Replacing them isn't rocket science but having several years of experience under the belt helps.

Regarding the water pump, I'd take into consideration how long it has been installed and how often the a-frz has been changed (no more than two years guys - the a-frz still protects from freezing but the corrosion inhibitors are shot.) There are worse jobs but bending at the waist for a few hours while doing all of this will make a believer outta ya. ;) If the pump's been in there more than 40-50,000 miles I'd change it if it were mine.

Beav

Water pump
 

Thanks Beav. Good advice. Yup on the >50K. Al fluids where changed at ~40K miles sometime a year ago or there 'bouts. I may get some flack, but I think I will press them on the change out for the water pump. I'd sleep better at night and I'm in this for the LONG haul. I can't image (and don't want to) what I'll do when that time comes that I have to repl..... OH I CAN'T THINK OF IT!

I checked my oil last night and it seems the leak is not terrible. So far I'm only slightly below the "F" line. I think I will wait till after the holidays to take it in.

I especially do not enjoy the prospect of removing pullies, as you mentioned. They are too easy to ruin without the right tools. I'll definitely let the pros do this one.

My first experience with the dealership here in Evansville, was just prior to the "4,600.00 Tranny Debacle." I had ordered my parts from Subaruparts.com (T-belt, Cam and Crank Seals, Valve Cover Gaskets, Water pump.). I went to the dealership and asked if there was anyone there who knew the SVX. They first said, oh, our Subaru tech is at lunch, but, our Service Manager knows it. I asked to meet him. A likeable guy who said he knew the SVX inside and out. He convinced me. I asked if he had a problem with me bringing my own parts. He said, "what kind of parts." I told him "Genuine Subaru Parts." He said, "no problem." I described the work I wanted done and asked if I'd be in and out the same day, or if I'd have to make arrangements for transportation. He told me, "we'll have it ready the same afternoon." I asked him about changing the water pump, he informed me it was just a few bolts, a simple change, once the other stuff was off. All was cool. I set an appointment, dropped the car off, took their shuttle to work. They sent the shuttle afte me in the afternoon and I went to the service desk. "Oh, Mr. Johnson, your car isn't ready -- won't be ready until tomorrow. Can we give you a ride somewhere?" When I suggested they take me home (40 miles, one way) they balked and offered to call a rental car company for me.

To make a long story short (well, shorter), I wound up having to rent a car for five days as they kept putting off the work. After the five days, I went to pick up the car. They had done all the work except for one VC gasket. They said they'd install it if they had one more day, but, said the one they hadn't replaced wasn't leaking, so, I told them that would be okay, I wanted my car. Upon checkout, I happened to mention "they told me I'd be in and out in a day and here it is 5 days later. They offered to "split" the rental car -- I took 'em up on it. I had my car back. Next day at work, I pulled into the parking lot and smoke was pouring from under the hood. Back to the dealership I go. Somehow a tranny filter hose had gone bad (in the five days I had left the car there), and they discovered a tranny mount was bad. Two days to order in the mount, hose was in stock. This time I was lucky enough to be able to use the company van (can you say "road wagon?") to transport myself the 80 mile round trip for the two days. Meanwhile, at the end of the two days, they call -- "Your car is ready." They send the shuttle, I go in to the service desk, "We tried to get you before you left, I was mistaken, your car is not ready. It'll be ready tomorrow." At this point, it was clear that I was unhappy. I went silent (that's the tipoff -- I'm never silent). The shuttle took me back the office (after dropping off three other customers) and I was able to take the company van home once more. The car WAS ready the next day, but, I was not a happy camper after all the inconvenience.

A couple of weeks later, when the tranny went down, I RELUCTANTLY took it back to the dealer (most of you know the story).

Okay -- I said all of that to say this: Upon first meeting Steve Wasion (wasions), who uses the same dealership and has nothing but good to say about them, he said that they (he and the tech) had conversation about me. That the tech had said that I had come in with "no confidence, with my own parts, most of which didn't need replacing." If he'd bothered to ask, I could have told him that I had bought the car with 109K miles on it, knew nothing of the service history, knew I had a cam seal leak and would rather spend the money and take the opportunity to start "afresh" with my service history than to have a cam seal changed and have something else die down the road. As for the parts -- I would have paid 30% more for the parts at their dealership and as long as they were genuine Subaru parts, they shouldn't have a gripe. As it was, I wound up dropping over a thousand dollars in labor (plus the cost of hose and tranny mount).

My take on the deal is, it's your car, your money and "flack" should not be an option.

Sorry for the long post. The "flack" line just caused me to have to vent, since it brought back such "icky" memories -- oh, not the least of which, right after they quoted me the $4,600.00 for the tranny, one of our members here, that works for SIA found a bill from the dealership I went to (although he's in Lafayette), in the glove box of an SVX (I forget the circumstance of why he was in posession of the SVX), for a transmission replacement for that car. Price, $2,300.00.

Whew!
 

Wow. Do you feel better Randy? That's why we're here. You've have a life time of tough brakes with that car.

I really DO trust the guys at Nashua. They always have several SVX's on the lot for sale, (the owner actually likes them) and I know at LEAST two people that have their car's serviced there.

I'll think about bringing my own parts. I don't want to get on their bad side to start, but 30% is a big number. Maybe just the t-belt and the water pump because I KNOW they could use a change, and they are the big ticket items. Assuming some sort of leak is just that. Assuming..... and I know how much THEY hate that.

I'll push for the water pump 'cause I'm in this for the LONG haul and I want my baby with me the WHOLE time.

I'm counting on a few days and will HAVE to rent a car from them for that. $30 a day to drive around in a brand new Outback wagon shouldn't be all that horrible. At least that's what they gave me last time.

Maybe I should push for one of 'dem 'dare WRX thingies....ya dream on!

I think I can wait till after the new year though. Checked my oil last night and it's hardly down at all. This must be a small leak.

I really do appreciate all the advice. This is going to cost a lot of money and I like to go in informed.

Thanks all,
- Jeff

while your there
 

I haven't looked into the SVX water pump thing yet, but I've run across this in many other cars. While your there changing the timing belt, often you should do the water pump. The reason is that in most other cars the water pump is driven off of the same belt. The act of un-tensioning the belt and therefore the load on the water pump bearings and seals, and then re-tensioning with a new belt is often enough to cause a water pump seal leak a short while later. Since in most cars the water pump is a headache to get to and you have to remove the timing belt again to do it, you should do them both at the same time. I don't remember if the SVX waterpump is driven off the same belt? Also, never, ever re-use the same timing belt. Even if it was only installed a few miles ago. The belt tensioning specifications only apply to a new belt.

Re: Whew!
 

In a word: Yes. :D

(Still trying to get my fingers to dial the number to the tranny shop for an appointment to check out the latest "flare.")

Uh...guys...do you take your ham and eggs to Denny's and have them cook them for you? I haven't worked in a shop in over twenty years that would install customer parts.

I'd guess something happened that required a part that wasn't in stock (something that they broke/ruined) was the time culprit. They probably figured they could recoup their losses on your tranny job. It pays to shop around. Historically I've taken it in the shorts 90% of the time when I've given someone a second chance, so I'm real selective about doing that anymore.

To tell you the truth I've been thinking about posting a little 'how-to' list regarding taking your cars in for service. It's really easy to take your car in for service if you just follow a few guidelines. Give me a week or so to find the time to outline....

Beav

If they started charging me three times the cost of the normal egg, yes I would. And, if they wouldn't cook them, I wouldn't go there, I'll cook the darned things myself. I'm sorry, but, if I can get the parts I KNOW I need for less, I'll take them. If they won't put them on for me, I'll go somewhere else. I'm tired of getting raped on parts and paying the high price of labor, especially when I know that the tech isn't gettin' jack diddly squat out of the deal and is generally over-worked and underpaid -- not a good combo when it comes to reliability. My 2 cents and change.

Not to pick nits but the last time I bought a dozen eggs they cost me less than $1. Around 8 cents/ea. Add an egg to what you're already buying at the diner and add 85 cents. Big mark up, per centage-wise. Parts mark-up 30%? Try to find a shop that won't be offended, won't add additional time to your job and and you can still trust to work on your car. Doesn't matter how much the tech makes, that's between him and the owner. But since you brought that up, most techs these days do get a percentage of the parts.

I'm not trying to make any enemies here, I'm just saying that taking your own parts in won't make you any friends... *offers hand for friendly shake*

Beav

*takes hand -- returns friendly shake*

This was beginning to be deja vu all over again. I don't want to make enemies either, and I believe you know what I meant about the whole "egg" thing. Let's not pick nits. I just get a little frustrated, I apologise and really don't mean to offend -- I'm just giving the view from my side of the fence. Like I've told everyone before, I have the utmost respect for techs. Worked at my uncle's service station out of high school and did the "piddly stuff" so, I have some sense of the goings on "behind the scenes", but the "big money dealerships" have put the poker up my . . . nose to many times. I remember when you made an appointment, you went in and sat around while they fixed your car and you drove it home. Today, it's *expected* that you're going to leave your car overnight. Service departments don't need waiting rooms, they need hotel rooms. You are at the mercy of their schedule and there is no consideration for yours. I mean, here's the scenario: you take your car in on Monday . . . they diagnose the problem . . . parts aren't in stock, they have to order them. Since Subaru ONLY lets you order parts on Tuesday, it's an overnight stay. Parts order is called in on Tuesday for Thursday delivery . . . or, if the part wasn't at warehouse A, it comes in from warehouse B on Friday. So, you may get your car on Thursday, maybe Friday, or, If they don't get the part(s) put on Friday, it's a weekend stay and they finish and you pick it up on Monday, if they don't find something else wrong while putting the parts on Monday, at which point you start the process over again -- so, you're out your car for an entire week . . . or more. Since most dealerships don't provide loaners, you're out the cost of a rental car, plus parts, plus labor. That kinda hit is difficult for some of us to take. Now, I realize a dealer can't keep every part for every car in stock, but in this world of electronic communication, there's gotta be a better way.

I'm just a little old fashioned, I guess. I take people at their words and am quick to trust. I beleive in "the customer's always right," "everybody deserves a fair shake," and "treat other people the way you want to be treated." I haven't gotten that in years from a dealership. That's why I use an ASE certified mechanic that works on cars at his house because he enjoys it. He's works on big equipment at a factory during the day and then, works on cars at night. He tells you when to bring it, tells you when to pick it up. He even calls and tells you which parts to order, and if he can get them cheaper than you can, he'll order them for you -- he charges parts at his cost. Yes, I'm spoiled.

Oh well -- enough venting for now. Please, please, please, don't take this as a personal affront, Beav. There are those who have wonderful experiences and those of us who've been sorely disappointed. I just happen to be one of the latter. Personally, I think you're a good egg. :D

I didn't take anything personally - no problemo.

I agree on ther dealership arena. I haven't worked in a dealership in years, mainly because there's always someone wanting their backside smooched. It really sucks that a good tech has to kiss a dispatcher's/service writer's fanny to get a decent ticket. Anyway, the thing to remember is that in a dealership there are basically three people - techs, bodymen and salesmen (or ex-salesmen.) Everyone as their own level of regard for car salesmen, now transfer that to the service writers (this is most cases - your mileage may vary.) A lot of service writers are salesmen that couldn't produce. But they'll still tell you what you want to hear in order to sell the work. Do anything to tick them off and they'll break that poker off in the last place it was seen entering. What do they care? When they were taught to sell cars it was stressed that if they don't have control they don't have a sale. They figure that their customers are a captive audience. There's always exceptions, but that's the gist of it.

Now to the techs...When I was selling tools I could see the producers that knew what they were doing (and dang few of them) and those that were there in order to scrape together a check. They would take something apart (or break it apart), let it set while they ambled off to the body shop to shoot the bull with their buddies. On their way back to the shop, if it wasn't lunch time, they would stop by the parts desk and hang out while waiting for the parts guys to quit screwing around. I suspect that they would tell their wives that the shop is always slow, that someone hated them or whatever to explain away their puny paychecks.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that only dealerships have problems. Currently I've been working with guys that have come from mass merchandisers that also sell parts. They aren't techs, they're parts replacers. If they can't figure something out they run to the counter, warm up the shotgun and start blasting parts at your car. Granted there are times when that's called for, but not on every single car (it's called "substituting a known good part" in the service manuals.)

Gee, I've certainly strayed from the subject, haven't I? :p I'm glad that you've found someone that operates to your liking. Afterall, that's what it's all about. Having your car repaired the way you want. My statement about toting your own parts in was made for the benefit of those that don't have that type of relationship with their mechanics. I still stand by that, it's rare that doing so won't cost you something, somehow - in most cases.

Beav

Thanks, Beav, for taking the more mature road to my ranting. My frustration doesn't extend only to matters of automobilia. Our medical system, and corporate culture are frought with similar flaws today. I can't afford to get sick, I can't afford for my car to get sick and I can't afford to take our major corporations to task to live up to their so-called "mission statements."

As you may have gathered, I use this forum for occasional therapy. It's a place where I can come and vent to people, who, whether they understand me or not, will at least listen and respond. It's a "safe" place for me. A sanctuary of sorts. Most of the time, whether I'm cajoled or castrated, I come out better for the experience.

A tip of the hat to you and a special thanks for sharing your insights and experience.