OT: Outback brakes
 

I've got a slightly embarrassing problem - I just replaced front brake pads on 2003 Outback and I also changed brake fluid at the same time.
Now the problem - I can't get the bloody thing to brake hard enough to lock wheels/engage ABS on dry road. It stops rather fast, but it still rolls.

I am at loss on what did I do wrong
- either I screwed up buying wrong brake pads, installing them or I let air in the system.

The pads are nothing fancy raybestos PG, I kept the OE shims. I removed and reinstalled them without finding anything wrong or

The brakes do not feel like they have air in them - regular braking is feels as usual, pumping does not make them any firmer.

The beast has rather un-inspiring OE tires, so we are not talking about any fenomenal traction...

So my options seem to be - get OE pads, bleed the brakes again, sell the car...

brakes
 

tell us how you bled the system....

By now I bled the system 3 times. The first time I did the same way I always done before - a container with a silicone hose and a good fitting rubber tip. Open the valve, run to driver seat, pump 5 times, run back, close the vale.

The second time I did a two man operation and kept the hose/container above the valve level, so the air would not go back. I did the same open - pump 5-7 times - close.

The third time I read the factory service manual, bled the master cylinder first (unbelievably it does not have a service port, insted you are supposed to disconnect output lines and plug them with the finger on backstroke). There is no bleeding required on ABS and there is no valve on it either. I bled the wheels again, in the factory-specified order (RF-LR-LF-RR) in the factory-specified manner: press pedal, open valve, wait for pedal to sink slowly, close valve, release pedal.

I'm back at the square one - on dry road it just rolls no matter how hard I press with one foot. With two feet on the brake pedal I can cause tire squeal, but not enough for ABS to kick in.

Looks like OE brake pads are the next thing on order, but I'm still at loss and don't have an adequate explanation of why this might be happening (by the way, none of us remebers doing a panick stop in this car, it might have been
this way since new).

I think you need to either get a 'mity-vac' type brake bleeder or have somebody help you with your bleeding.

When you pump the brake pedal and allow it to spring back up, there's no gaurantee that it's drawing brake fluid from the reservoir instead of air through the bleeder valve. I think the latter is happening to you, because you're not bleeding the brakes properly.

In order to bleed the brakes without a vac, you need to have one person by the caliper and another in the car.

1. Begin with the bleeder screw closed.
2. Press down on the brake pedal.
3. Open the bleeder screw until fluid stops draining.
4. Close the bleeder screw.
5. Release the brake pedal.

When you do it that way, you're assured that releasing the pedal draws fluid from the reservoir. Your way it's just sucking air back up into the system. Be aware that doing it the way I'm recommending, the right way, you're going to go through fluid a lot faster than you have been - so check the reservoir often. It doesn't take much to drain it, and if you do let it get empty, or close to it, you might as well start over because you've allowed air into the system again.

I recommend getting a mity-vac. You can pick one up at your local auto parts store and they make brake bleeding much, much easier. I still recommend two people, though.

1. Start with bleeder screw closed.
2. Fit the hose from the vac onto the bleeder and pump it a couple times, building up a vacuum.
3. Open the bleeder screw and make sure you keep pumping to maintain the vacuum.
4. Close the bleeder when the reservoir on the vac is full.
5. Empty the vac'a reservoir and repeat.

The second person is needed to keep an eye on the brake reservoir under the hood and fill when needed. Again, make sure you don't let it get even close to empty, or you have to start all over.

I recommend bleeding through all four calipers, and starting with the furthest from the reservoir. Bleed until you see clear (or close to it) fluid and move on. You'll need a few bottles of fresh brake fluid. Make sure not to spill any on the paint - it eats through finishes like you wouldn't believe.

To bleed my brakes I use a container (glass jar or plastic coke bottle) filled with 2-3in. of brake fluid and a clear piece of hose connected to the bleeder valve running down into the brake fluid. It works good and also stops the caliper from sucking up air (since the tube goes down into the brake fluid in the container). The next thing I would do is try changing pads again.



dustin

Yeah, but then you're not actually bleeding anything - just pumping fluid (and any air in the system) back and forth. You still need either the vac or two people.

The air comes out of the system just like if you did a two-man job but with the brake fluid in a container it doesnt suck air back into the system.


dustin

I don't see how, unless you're not explaining your process thoroughly. If you're just pumping the pedal with the tube in a bucket of brake fluid, you're just pumping a small bit out and then drawing the same amount back in. If there's air in the system that the first stroke of the pedal doesn't get out, you'll never get it out that way.

I agree with Pockets. Use two people or buy a self-bleeder. You are doing it incorrectly if done otherwise.

I was staring at a wall of "Speed Bleeders" yesterday afternoon at auto-x I think those could be a good thing for one man bleeding jobs

Exactly. If you were to replace all your bleeder screws with those 'speed-bleeder' screws, then you could do follow Dustin or GL's methods. Otherwise you need a hand vac or another person. Either way, I still recommend another person to keep a close eye on the brake reservoir - it drains very quickly.

Edit: The standard bleeder screws that are already on the calipers from the factory don't seal all that well when opened, so I would be concerned about these 'speed-bleeders' letting air back into the system through the threads. If I were to fit these, I'd probably put some teflon tape on their threads first.

Maybe I did not make myself clear - this is exactly how I did it the last two times.

I've driven cars with air in brake system before - it feels different. With air in brake system, pumping of the brake pedal helps - second stroke is firmer than the first one. Not the case with this car.
Genuine brake pads are on order, if they do not help, it will go to a dealer for a warranty service.

The car's still under warranty? I hope they don't try to screw you because you replaced the pads yourself.

Other than that, sorry, I don't know.

Were the rotors machined?

If not, the new pads may need a little time to wear in on the rotors. You may have new pads, but initially, you won't have full contact.