PHENOLIC SPACERS......by Outlaw Engineering
 

Do any of you remember a few months ago when I posted a thread about my new (2 months old at that time) phenolic spacers by Outlaw Engineering...??? Well...I decided to have the mechanic put them on when reassembling my engine during head gasket job done in late August 2005. Two months after getting my SVX back..I started to get a sudden erratic idle when pulling into my garage! I looked the engine over...finding that the top gasket on the phenolic spacers had cracked (as if intake manifold bolts were over-tightened) creating unwanted airways in a couple spots ..which was allowing air to enter that was not "counted" by the MAF sensor! Hence, the erratic idle!

I contacted the mechanic, who proceeded to claim no responsibility whatsoever...even though he admitted his helper had assembled that part! At the time, I really felt bad about that...feeling that the most likely explanation was overtightening of the intake manifold bolts. Outlaw somewhat readily offered to send a new set of spacers (with attached top and bottom gaskets as the other spacers had had) although they stated they (Sean) had never heard of such a failure with their product! [I kept the engine running properly by sealing the gasket-crack leaks with black RTV.]

I installed the new spacers about one month later with no apparent problem...except I had to drain the AC refrigerant in order to get the driver's from intake manifold bolt off!

Today, I notice that the passenger side TOP gasket is now cracked AGAIN!..and leaking through a 1/16 inch crack ....WITH THE GASKET SLIDING LATERALLY ON THE PHENOLIC SPACER! I torqued the bolts as per factory manual...I think about 20 ft-lbs. [which Sean verified earlier as the correct spec.]!

HELP! :confused: I will contact Outlaw again, but don't expect a confession...or explanation soon....

THANKS for any HELP you can give! :D

P.S. Please switch this to the MOD forum, if that's where it belongs...sorry!

Hmmm, did you check if your manifold has at its bottom some sort of "blade" -ish piece of metal causing the spacer to cut in two? any pics would be most helpful...

Nikfu had posted about a similiar problem about a month or so ago... Search for his post, I forget his outcome.

He hadn't an issue with the spacers cutting at a certain point as I remember, just that the spacer is slipping from its position....

Outcome was I needed to tighten the bolts down a bit more.

My spacers are not cracking. I'll have to take a closer look to know for sure but from what I looked at 10 minutes ago they seem to be fine.

Interestingly enough I think I'm due for a headgasket replacement as I've got steam coming from my oil filler.

Phenolic Spacers.
 

I never did like the idea of these on the SVX, but thats just me. I think the spacers are too thick to have gaskets on them. The Phenolic material is too soft to support the gaskets, so when the manifold is torqued down to specs. the gasket is squeezed out. I think it would be better to fit the spacers without the gaskets, just a smear of a non slippery sealant on each side of the spacer.

Harvey.;)

Harvey, the Outlaw Phenolic spacers are rigid, hard, non-flexable plastic.:)

Oh my mistake.:p not having seen them.:)

Then just leave the gaskets out. The standard gaskets don't have the same problem, so maybe the extra thickness of the two gaskets allow the manifold to move,to squeeze the gasket out.

I have though before, that the manifold does form a support brace between the very heavy cylinder heads, as the manifold bolts often become loose, so something must be moving. What do you reckon Tom?

Harvey.

Fixzor.

I agree with what Harvey said though. Mine were not torqued quite to spec, or they loosened up, and moved.

James' were torqued to spec, possibly tighter, and they still moved, though possibly due to the cracking.

Due to the fact they even cracked in the first place, I'd venture to say they are infact not hard enough to support the gaskets but for a very precise margin of error and if you miss this margin you are out of luck.

I don't see the opint of using adhesive when the bolts should be holding them in place.

The whole mess of glue and green goop seems counter-productive.

Yes Nik, there is no need for gaskets and adhesive. The surfaces are smooth enough to not need the gaskets, just a smear of Rolls Royce jointing compound on each side of the Spacer should be all that is needed.

Harvey.;)

WISH I hadn't........
 

Well... Sean @ Outlaw told me He'd never heard of this problem...That the adhesive was just to hold the gasket in place (whatever that means?)...and that he'd let me know what he found...

He never got back to me after sending the damaged spacers to him in Dec 2005.....AND he hasn't got back NOW!

I hope he sends spacers without gaskets to me...??? How would using the stock gaskets (2) on a plain phenolic spacer sound?

I APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS....any MORE? :confused:

THANKS :D

I spoke with Sean last week, when I ordered another set of five spacers for a new/used engine that I am installing in the Claret.
He gave me the choise of a new adheasive backed gasket with the spacers, or no gaskets with a $10.00 discount.
I chose the new gaskets, as I am on a budget, and the Subaru gaskets are a good bit more money.
My first set, using Subaru gaskets has been great.
I do not expect a problem, but with s/c boost trying to push the gaskets out of place, we will see soon enough.
More later, Tom.:)

I just got the new style phenolic spacers out of my mailbox today, so pictures are in my locker.http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/use...svxfiles|33827:)
The engine to stack spacers came with the gaskets adheared, as did the throttle body spacer.
The stack to manifold spacers came with the green gaskets loose, not attached.
And there seems to be no glue on them at all.
I am deciding whether to get the manifold ceramic coated this weekend, and if I do it will be two weeks or so till the engine goes in.
More later, Tom.

No Adhesive!.......???
 

Seems like Sean might have modified their approach after my problem with the intake spacer gaskets breaking ...and sliding! [if I understand you correctly..?]

He hasn't answered my email yet....I'll re-email him soon. It seems like the idea of using 2 stock gaskets without adhesive makes the most sense. I also wonder if the gaskets they provide are too soft...helping them to crack? [They look so different from the stock gasket material!]

THANKS! :D

The engine to stack spacers and the throttle body spacer, have gaskets installed, Sean tells me with a new adheasive.
But the manifold to stack spacers have gaskets that are not attached.
I have confidence in the Outlaw Engineering setup, and am going to use their gaskets.

But, if you prefer you can go with Subaru gaskets.
After all Subaru has the most experiance with Subaru.:)

SEAN emailed....
 

Sean emailed me back...saying the first set of cracked/sliding gaskets on the phenolic spacers with (adhesive) attached gaskets appeared to have been abused (tightened too much, I guess)....[by the mechanics who did my head gasket job a few months ago.]

BUT, he acknowledged that I obviously took care (and had the correct torque spec for the intake bolts) when installing the second set of spacers with attached gaskets...SO, he is sending me a new plain set of Outlaw phenolic spacers which I will install without sealer and Subaru gaskets.

Sean has been very understanding and classy with his response to my spacer problems!

THANKS! I'll let you know what happens THIS time! :D

2 gaskets short....
 

Now just waiting for SubaruParts.com to send me 2 more intake gaskets so I can try assembling with no sealer (or adhesive)! If it doesn't work...guess I'll have to sell it to an enemy...and then buy a new Ferrari...

OHHHHHH!...I guess I'm just a couple hundred thousand short...oops! Let's make this work.

I'll let ya know! :D

I've been thinking of doing this mod myself, since I have to swap out my knock sensor 2 anyhow. It sounds like I need to order the plain spacers with no adhesive on them from Outlaw, along with two sets of gaskets from Subaru. Should that do it for me? I have a torque wrench, so I should be OK there. And I don't think I need any adhesive for the gaskets, do I?

SPACERS....Gaskets...???
 

I replaced one side (so I wouldn't have to take off the driver's side [AC tube - and drain AC of freon]) with plain spacer and two Subaru gaskets without adhesive...

It seems to be working...I'll let you know..as time goes by... [This was difficult to do since gaskets are not part of unit...It's easy for a gasket to get bent into an intake hole when sliding into place....BE CAREFUL!]

Have Fun! Jim :D

Thanks Jim,
Is it a given that I'll have to remove the AC tube to lift the collector 1/4" on my '94? It sure looks like I've got more than enough room to fit a spacer in on that side & still be able to thread the bolt. If I gotta do all THAT I 'm not going to bother. I just figured if I have to remove the collector to change out my knock sensor anyhow, I could easily do this mod while I'm at it.
Cappy

this seems like a dumb question but what do these spacers do?

They are an insulator to keep engine heat out of the intake manifold.
They actually work.
Colder air can give an engine more power.

Well, from what I understand, they provide a thermal insulating barrier between the intake collector and the engine block, thus preventing the heat off the engine from getting up into the intake/collector. The idea is to keep the air cooler as it enters the engine, thus providing a horsepower increase, especially after the engine is hot. They claim a 4-8hp increase. I'm not sure I've ever read any "glowing testamonials" about them, but I figured if I had to remove the collector anyhow, this would be a fairly painless mod, and hey, a few extra ponies is never a bad thing.
Cappy

ohh ok sweet next dumb question is where can i buy them?

They're no longer listed on the website... have these been discontinued?

I don't believe they ever were listed...not enough of a market...just give Sean a call.
-Bill

So.... they DO make them, they just don't list them on their website? I have to call for them to send me some, or do they have to make them?

Just call and ask for Sean (I think). I just got mine last fall for $107 shipped.

So the idea is that they are just a thermal barrier. Is there no gain from creating a longer strait shotgun, increased velocity type thing "tunnel ram" effect? What is the HP to $ from these anyway? Just curious since I have my intake off now, awaiting gaskets and stuff.

tunnel ram effect? NAh, that stuff is for like..tornados and stuff. just a safe barrier to reduce heat transfer via conduction. I remember my old engine with the spacers, after a long drive, I could easilly hold my hand on the intake manifold, whereas I have a hard time doing so without them

....Mabey Ill do a little thermometer based expeiment when I re-install them

i think that the claim is 6%-10% at the crank. I dont know how much of an effect they have on the svx in terms of hp, but as eric said after spirited driving you can hold your hand on the manifold.

I am positive this has already been done, with pics.

This may mean nothing, or it may mean a lot of things, but after a while I felt as if these spacers lost effectiveness somewhere to the tune of 15 degrees. When freshly installed, the mani was always never hot. Recently it would become... somewhat hot, slightly warmer than warm. May just be my imagination.

"tunnel ram effect? NAh, that stuff is for like..tornados and stuff."

Um, what? Tornado "and stuff"? So you are talking about the fuel saver thing? :)
OK, not to mock, but, really?
Not to say that F1 is the tip top, but increased air velocity is the key to making power in the top end on a n/a motor. The eg33 is operating at half the revs so I was just wandering if the lower revs and no venturi effect has any part to play on our simple n/a motors. I'm not trying to be abrasive, just curious.

operating at half the revs?

Half the revs of an F1.

I was thinking they did like 12k to 14k. That data is several years old. Has it changed?

19,000, which is a regulation limit.

NA engine builds may soon yeild 8k rev ranges, so you are not necessarily off on your statement.

What???
Before I installed the Outlaw spacers my intake manifold was 200F.
Just like the top of the engine block.
Now its 140F.:D
Granted I had it ceramic coated while it was off, but the spacers do help in stopping heat transfer.

Buy em, install em, and be happy!:D

Re: PHENOLIC SPACERS......by Outlaw Engineering
 

sorry to bring back an old topic but I just want to know if I have to use the oem torq spec or they have a specific one?