Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The White House said Thursday it was reviewing what has turned out to be a wildly popular "cash for clunkers" program amid concerns the $1 billion budget for rebates for new auto purchases may have been exhausted in only a week.

Transportation Department officials called lawmakers' offices earlier Thursday to alert them of plans to suspend the program as early as Friday. But a White House official said later the program had not been suspended and officials there were assessing their options.

"We are working tonight to assess the situation facing what is obviously an incredibly popular program," White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said of the Car Allowance Rebate System. "Auto dealers and consumers should have confidence that all valid CARS transactions that have taken place to date will be honored."

Gibbs said the administration was "evaluating all options" to keep the program funded.

A Transportation Department official said the department was working with Congress and the White House to keep the program going. The administration officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the discussions.

The CARS program offers owners of old cars and trucks $3,500 or $4,500 toward a new, more fuel-efficient vehicle.

Congress last month approved the program to boost auto sales and remove some inefficient cars and trucks from the roads. The program kicked off last Friday and was heavily publicized by car companies and auto dealers

Through late Wednesday, 22,782 vehicles had been purchased through the program and nearly $96 million had been spent. But dealers raised concerns about large backlogs in the processing of the deals in the government system, prompting talk of a possible suspension.

A survey of 2,000 dealers by the National Automobile Dealers Association found about 25,000 deals had not yet been approved by NHTSA, or nearly 13 trades per store. It raised concerns that with about 23,000 dealers taking part in the program, auto dealers may already have surpassed the 250,000 vehicle sales funded by the $1 billion program.

"There's a significant backlog of 'cash for clunkers' deals that make us question how much funding is still available in the program," said Bailey Wood, a spokesman for the dealers association.

Alan Helfman, general manager of River Oaks Chrysler Jeep in Houston, said he was worried that the government wouldn't pay for some of the clunker deals his dealership has signed because they aren't far enough along in the process.

His dealership has done paperwork on about 20 sales under the clunker program, but in some cases the titles haven't been obtained yet or the vehicles aren't yet on his lot.

"There's no doubt I'm going to get hammered on a deal or two," Helfman said.

The clunkers program was set up to boost U.S. auto sales and help struggling automakers through the worst sales slump in more than a quarter-century. Sales for the first half of the year were down 35 percent from the same period in 2008, and analysts are predicting only a modest recovery during the second half of the year.

So far this year, sales are running under an annual rate of 10 million light vehicles, but as recently as 2007, automakers sold more than 16 million cars and light trucks in the United States.

Even before the suspension, some in Congress were seeking more money for the auto sales stimulus. Rep. Candice Miller, R-Mich., wrote in a letter to House leaders on Wednesday requesting additional funding for the program.

"This is simply the most stimulative $1 billion the federal government has spent during the entire economic downturn," Miller said Thursday. "The federal government must come up with more money, immediately, to keep this program going."

Michigan lawmakers planned to meet on Friday to discuss the program.

Brendan Daly, a spokesman for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said they would work with "the congressional sponsors and the administration to quickly review the results of the initiative."

General Motors Co. spokesman Greg Martin said Thursday the automaker hopes "there's a will and way to keep the CARS program going a little bit longer."

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

Not so fast...

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/31/r...through-today/

Supposedly they are going to try to find more money. As if money even matters anymore.

If I were the government, I would have $9,000,000,000,000,000,000.00, just for the effort of writing the number down in the completely fictitious ledger that says I can spend that much, if I want to.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

And here is the list of eligible vehicles.


We're in there... 1992-1997s :mad:

http://www.edmunds.com/cash-for-clun...-vehicles.html


.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

I am actually pleased that they ran through the first billion so quickly (a week, as it?) I'd rather not see it extended, but how long can they keep it going if it's costing (us taxpayers, btw) a billion a week? The sooner they put this to rest, the fewer SVX's will be "killed".

Have you read the procedure for "killing" the engine? (They use the euphemism "disablement".) Makes me cry to think they may be doing this to one of our beloved cars just for money. (And not much more than you would get for a trade, in my opinion.)

Here is a link to the "disablement" procedure. Anyone who does this WILLINGLY to their car is MUCH worse (imho) than someone who ACCIDENTALLY totals one.


How will you spend those "thirty pieces of silver"?

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

For those of you who can't open a PDF file...

How To Use Sodium Silicate
Engine Disablement Procedures for the CARS Program

Taken from Page 127 in the NHTSA Final Rule

THIS PROCEDURE IS NOT TO BE USED BY THE VEHICLE OWNER

THESE STEPS ARE FOR PARTICPATING CARS DEALERS ONLY



Perform the following procedure to disable the vehicle engine.

1. Obtain solution of 40% sodium silicate/60% water. (The Sodium Silicate (SiO2/Na2O) must have a weight ratio of 3.0 or greater.)

2. Drain engine oil for environmentally appropriate disposal.

3. Install the oil drain plug.

4. Since the procedure is intended to render the engine inoperative, drive or move the vehicle to the desired area for disablement.

5. Pour enough solution in the engine through the oil fill for the oil pump to circulate the solution throughout the engine. Start by adding 2 quarts of the solution, which should be sufficient in most cases.

CAUTION: Wear goggles and gloves. Appropriate protective clothing should be worn to prevent silicate solution from coming into contact with the skin.

6. Replace the oil fill cap.

7. Start the engine.

8. Run engine at approximately 2000 rpm (for safety reasons do not operate at high rpm) until the engine stops. (Typically the engine will operate for 3 to 7 minutes. As the solution starts to affect engine operation, the operator will have to apply more throttle to keep the engine at 2000 rpm.)

9. Allow the engine to cool for at least 1 hour.

10. With the battery at full charge or with auxiliary power to provide the power of a fully charged battery, attempt to start the engine.

11. If the engine will not operate at idle, the procedure is complete.

12. If the engine will operate at idle, repeat steps 7 through 11 until the engine will no longer idle.

13. Attach a label to the engine that legibly states the following:

This engine is from a vehicle that is part of the Car Allowance Rebate System (CARS). It has significant internal damage caused by operating the engine with a sodium silicate solution (liquid glass) instead of oil.
14. File this document in the file for the new vehicle purchase.

I could never do this to ANY running car. People are just sick in the head. And like lady said, it's costing us taxpayers.:mad:

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

Yes, that's a twin turbo S80. This all makes me pretty sick.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

I really don't get how putting more people in debt is a good thing? Sure we'll give you 4500 dollars towards your 15k+ debt your going to accumulate. Not to mention the debt added to the US debt. I just don't see how taking a perfectly good car and trashing it makes sense.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

Those guys in the video look like they would enjoy tying cats into burlap bags and then throwing them into the river to hear them scream. :mad:

You can hear the car crying. :(

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

Yes they do. :( That was disturbing... I read on one of the motorcycle forums that they were thinking about putting motorcycles in the mix. Not to destroy, but you could get money towards a motorcycle rather than a new car.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

Let me see if I have this right...

The government gives me $3500 to buy a car which gets more than 3 mpg than the one I have...

If my old car only got 20mpg, I would use 50 gallons of gas for every 1000 miles I drive.
If my new car gets 25 mpg, I use 40 gallons of gas for the same 1000 miles.

Saving 10 gallons of gas every 1000 miles (at say, $3.50/gallon) is $35.00.

Assuming the average annual mileage is 15,000 miles a year, I am saving a whopping $525.00 every year! ;)

But to save this money, I have to go into debt for at least $20,000 for a new car. This car (after the $3,500 allowance), plus the addition of sales tax, registration, etc. is still an $18,000 debt.

$18,000, financed at about 5.5%, is $344.00 per month for 60 months

$344.00 x 12 months = $4128.00 a year that I have to spend to "save" that $525.00. And that doesn't include the cost of the gas I have to put in it.

NEW CAR: $4128.00/year plus $2100.00/year in gas (600 gallons/year at $3.50) = $6288. Divided by 12 months is $524.00 a month to drive the new car.


OLD CAR: $2625.00/year in gas (750 gallons/year at $3.50) divided by 12 months, is $218.00 a month to keep what I have.

Even counting unexpected mintenence on the older car, I am still well ahead financially. Or am I missing something hers and am looking at this all wrong?

.



.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

Watching this video makes me sick, is like watching an abortion.. :mad: S***!!

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

I agree with you...

Right! I hate this.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

I can't see what is in the pic (I'm at work) but if it is the video I think it is please explain to me how that car is worth less then 3500/4500. I know you deal with these types of cars so tell me what that thing is really worth.

Like I said if it is the car I think it is I would have bought it for 3500 cause that is a damn nice ride.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

10 characters.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

so is the first gen legacy turbo, so sad
2 of the best cars subaru ever made

Somewhat off topic, but related to this last post.....
 

Soon after the "bailouts" began, Tom received a letter from a credit card company with whom we carry a substantial balance. I don't remember the exact wording, but I certainly remember the letter. It began with "Dear So-and-so, in this time of financial crisis (or hardship, whatever term they used)......"

I thought they were going to lower, or at least freeze, our rates. Guess what? They were informing us that they would be RAISING our rates to help THEM get through the financial crisis! (I am not making this up!) Our only recourse would be to pay off the entire balance (perhaps with another credit card) or just accept it.

Re: Somewhat off topic, but related to this last post.....
 

I have to remember this one! :eek:

Re: Somewhat off topic, but related to this last post.....
 

BOHICA is the name of one of our LGBT bowling leagues here. it happens.

Re: Somewhat off topic, but related to this last post.....
 

10 characters.

Re: Somewhat off topic, but related to this last post.....
 

Not a bad assessment. But PLEASE think of the reader and remember the
space bar, as above.:lol:

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

If that car is an 02 with, let's say 120,000 miles (average for the year). I believe it would be worth somewhere around 2000.00 wholesale.

As an example, the below car is one that I recently sold. I purchased the car at auction for $3000.00. It is a 2004.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

ok so I am home now and yes that car in the video is the one I thought it was. I like that thing...and you say they wholesale for 2k? Wow that is one sweet ride for the money. Twin turbos sounds kind of exciting. Are they any good or are they POS's?

Sorry for the hijack. :o

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

Average price for a Volvo S80 here is 20.000 dollars, for example, a ´06 diesel is worth around 38.000 u$d... i guess they have to EXPORT those cars instead of killing them.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

'


As if being on having or cars the list isn't enough of a tragedy...

See what is ineligible for the program by clicking HERE


1987 Lincoln Town car
1993 Mitsubishi 3000 GT
1987 Lincoln Continental
1987 Lincoln Mark VII
1987 Mercury Grand Marquis
1987 Mercury Grand Marquis Wagon
Porsche 944
1992 Acura NSX


Here is the list of the 78 INELIGIBLE CARS

HERE is the list of the 87 cars that were formerly INELIGIBLE, but are now on the list.

Getting more absurd by the day... :angst:

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

.


The 1992 (OBDI) Subaru SVX got a combined mileage rating of 18 MPG Click HERE

The 1997 (OBDII) Subaru got a combined mileage rating of 17 MPG Click HERE


And a 5.0 litre V8 1987 Lincoln Town Car gets a combined mileage estimate of 19 MPG? Click HERE

Which is the same mileage as a 1987 Ford LTD Crown Victoria Wagon or a 1992 Acura NSX.


..

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

.


Saving the most ridiculous for last...The 1992 Subaru SVX (3.3 Liter 6) got a combined mileage rating of 18 MPG...

The 1997 Subaru SVX (3.3 Liter 6) got a combined mileage rating of 17 MPG...



Annd guess what the combined mileage estimate is for a fire-breathing 5.7 Liter V8, 1993 Corvette?... Ta-DAH! :eek:

I didn't know I was in such esteemed company...


But we legally get to kill a 2005 Rolls-Royce Phantom that only gets 14 MPG...
and a Ferrari Testarossa which only gets 11MPG

HERE is the Vehicle Mileage Calculator; enter various vehicles and have a good laugh.

.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

The only thing worse than destroying an SVX with an EG33...

would be shredding a hand-built Rolls

or to grenade a Ferrari flat 12 with Sodium Silicate.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

I export about 30% of the cars that I sell. As an example, Russia recently imposed a 100% tax on cars imported from the US. I am STILL exporting cars to Russia and making money. Cars are less expensive in the US than anywhere else on the planet.

This is a list of the Twin Turbo Volvo S80s that have sold recently at auction in the US with their prices:

07/29/09 ALOHA Regular $2,400 121,457 Avg
07/23/09 DET METR Lease $2,600 107,898 Avg
07/22/09 NADE Regular $2,550 144,133 Avg
07/21/09 RIVRSIDE Regular $2,450 102,907 Avg
07/16/09 NORTHSTR Regular $2,800 168,305 Avg
07/16/09 LAS VEGA Regular $3,100 89,364 Avg
07/16/09 GTR PHNX Regular $2,100 105,807 Below
07/15/09 KC Regular $5,500 82,295 Above
07/15/09 BAY CITI Regular $2,250 138,034 Avg
07/14/09 SKYLINE Regular $2,900 68,717 Avg
07/14/09 HATFIELD Regular $3,400 85,251 Avg
07/14/09 BISHOP B Lease $3,300 126,746 Avg
07/10/09 MANHEIM Regular $2,850 110,164 Avg
07/08/09 BAY CITI Regular $4,350 95,751 Above
07/08/09 BAY CITI Regular $3,500 100,484 Avg
07/07/09 GTR TUSC Lease $4,450 65,880 Above
07/07/09 BALTWASH Regular $1,950 142,090 Below

They are really really great cars. I almost kept the one in the picture for myself.

Mike

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

Has anybody noticed this statement on the Cash for Clunkers website?

“This application provides access to the DOT CARS system. When logged on to the CARS system, your computer is considered a federal computer system and is the property of the United States Government."

“Any or all uses of this system and all files on this system may be intercepted, monitored, recorded, copied, audited, inspected, and disclosed to authorized CARS, DoT, and law enforcement personnel, as well as authorized officials of other agencies, both domestic and foreign.”

Kind of scarey.
Gene

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

That is on the dealer side of the site, and supposedly not accessible to just passers-by.

When Glenn Beck reported on it last week (the only one who has, that I know of...), the white house yesterday released a statement saying that they were changing the language of that use-agreement.

That doesn't mean they won't, or haven't already been doing that... just that the language of the warning won't be so direct about it.

And I don't think "kind of" really approaches the level of seriousness of the government seizing control and use of private computers, every file on them, and distributing that information to law enforcement without a warrant for search or seizure, or to foreign entities.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

You´re right, cars in the US are dirty cheap, for example, a mint condition 95´SVX is priced 9500-12000 u$d in here. I think it´s a good deal to export cars to some countries.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

'

This program is a prime example of the "Broken Window Fallacy"

Cash for Clunkers boils down, in the simplest terms to taxpayers paying $3 billion to destroy maybe $2 billion worth of productive assets, on the idea that somehow this is good for the economy.

If anyone wants to invoke Bastiat and his “what is seen and unseen”, this is a pretty good example of his Broken Window Fallacy — the seductive notion that destroying assets is good for the economy because people earn income from replacing them.

A more concise understanding of this can be found here:

http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm



They used to say "War is good for the economy" and point to the fact that World war II got us out of the Great Depression. But let's take the "Broken Window Fallacy and relate it to something more understandable.

Let's replace the word "War" with "Terrorism"...


September, 11, 2001

The loss of the World Trade center towers, and other buildings and capital is bad enough, but thousands of people, many experts in their field who are not easily replaced, perished when terrorists destroyed the towers. The physical losses are in the billions of dollars; the human losses are incalculable.

It is true that some people will be made better off temporarily as insurance money compensates the owners in part for their losses and new construction begins.

Anyone who has ever had to make an insurance claim on lost or destroyed property knows that the ordeal is hardly without cost.



But didn't it create opportunity and help the economy?

Only a tiny number of New Yorkers were employed either cleaning up the rubble, or rebuilding after this gruesome task was completed.

The billions of dollars that insurance companies paid for losses came from funds that would have been invested elsewhere. Other projects that were being planned died, as they were starved for lack of available capital to invest. Insurance companies wer forced to raise rates to cover losses. This gave consumers less to spend.

But the events of 9/11 got us into Afghanistan and then Iraq. Billions have been spent on this and thousands of lives again lost... and counting.

We are still at war... and what about the economy?






So for everyone reading this, if you have bought a car using the cash for clunkers program, please send me a thank you for helping you to buy it, as it will be paid for by my (and even your) taxes, along with those paid by millions of other Americans.

Anf those of your grandchildren's as well.


.

.

and look what the Phillipine goverment does to cars used for smuggling... :eek:





.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

.

This is a Must- read on the Cash for Clunkers "success" story/

http://www.scrivener.net/2009/08/cas...tory-crow.html


Pay close attention to the example of how the "credit" actually works (and not completely to your benefit) and also check out section on the destruction of the 750,000 functioning automobiles...


as well as the Final Verdict.


Only the government could conceive of a program that would cost taxpayers $3 billion to destroy between $1.5 -$2 billion worth of productive assets.


This is my last post on this topic. period.
./

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

Wow this thread is the John Hoffman post***** thread, isn't it? ;)

Just giving you a hard time, John.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

I am allowed to have a meltdown like this every 10 years or so. After many years of giving advice here, I just needed a little time to rant about this.

But I know when to quit, and I did. So I can't be too much of a junkie.



Now go back into the closet and find my damn jacket and I promise I'll be quiet... ;)



.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

I haven't been in the closet for years. Maybe that's why I can't find it?

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

10 characters.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

Wow, that Volvo is still very nice in that video. The engine was crying. Why would they kill the nice cars like that or instead of exporting/selling them to the poor countries?

PS: Did that Volvo have any engine oil in that when they killed it? The engine still sounded nice in the video!

My other cars are not eligible for this program except for the svxi. Unless I have a pos like 1980s' with rusty body and smoking engine, I will trade for a 2010 prius and it will be at least 30mpg better than the old one. :D The program may be good to someone or help pushing up some car sales. But, some people may have just seen the money and using it wrong. They should rethink what are the criteria for this program imo.

I think John's calculation may vary depending on case, it also does not consider of some other variations such as new cars are safer, also better for environment(emission test), and definitely less repair fees, save time, save worries with new car warranty and etc. But a new car if it isn't paid full, it also needs full comprehensive insurance (more money to operate), higher property taxes yearly. It all depends on what you can afford and what you need.

Re: Cash for clunkers...the final installment perhaps
 

My god what has happened to our country... Soon we will all be living in a third world state... pathetic... Suddenly the Amish colonies are sounding like a great place to live.