'94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
Hi,
I've read a lot of stuff on this forum regarding SVX tranny swaps, but most seems to deal with MT conversions, or FWD to AWD conversions. There are a lot of posts out there dealing with AWD transmission replacements, but not much on FWD swaps, so I have started this post to try and get some expert opinions on issues related to doing a FWD to FWD automatic tranny swap from a non-svx Subaru donor vehicle. Background on my situation: I've got a '94 FWD SVX with a blown automatic tranny. Getting the transmission rebuilt is very expensive, so I am looking to get a good used one. However, as you all know, the used FWD SVX tranny's are rare and go for a premium. I am not interested in doing a FWD to AWD conversion, nor am I interested in doing an AT to MT conversion. I just want to stick with a FWD 4EAT 4spd automatic. Here are some questions that would be very helpful to get addressed by you knowledgable folks:
Thanks for your opinions and thoughts! Philip |
Re: '94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
I will attempt to answer your questions;
1. yes,yes,yes 2. If you can find a 3.9 FWD go for it.I can't speak for how much of a difference you will see from 3.7 to 3.9 but I can't imagine its huge. 3. Not sure, I know early imprezas had FWD 4. No TCU change is needed, keep the FWD with FWD and you will be fine. 5. No it should be fine. there is a gear mechanism in the transmissions that give speed based on rotation. You do not need worry about that. Although I think higher ratio might put it off a slight bit (I am not 100% but nothing to be worried about). 6. Not that you can, but avoid Phase II 4EATs (not compatible nor come FWD) 7. Not sure of any in the US anyways. I believe the loyales and etc were all 4wd that came turbo. 8.No, you can pull the old stubs if needed and put them in the new trans. IIRC they should all be male and correct spline count. 9. No should all plug and play 10. No but you should change it when you put it in to be sure. 11. All the shift kits do is raise the pressure, I don't think anyone has confirmed that it helps in the long run. 12. Front drivers side wheel well (in front of the tire). If you live in a climate that gets cold you might run into problems with the tempature not reaching the correct operating temp. If so you will have the TC unlock at highway speeds if I recall correctly. I lived in central NC and had a cooler on my FWD. I don't recall running into this problem but it wasn't usually below freezing. 13. You can do either but if you do it here the search will pick up on everything you asked and hopefully provide some feedback from you. |
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I just saw you are from Milwaukie about 35 mins from me. If you have questions, need help etc feel free to reach out. Pulling the FWD trans is easy to an extent.
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Re: '94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
It will have to be a FWD 4EAT out of either a Legacy, or an Impreza, the Loyal, and XT's used a different bell housing and won't bolt up to the EG33.
The Speedo will be off depending on the difference in the circumference of the SVX's wheels compared to the donor cars tires....some early Impreza had 13" tires... I think there were a few FWD Turbo Legacys, which should have the extra clutch packs, and "Should" be a better transmission...but were probably abused more too.... |
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Re: '94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
Ok I'm going to ask a very stupid question.
Here goes... What if you used a 4wd tranny and not hooked up the rear wheels? I suspect it will throw codes. But would it work at all ? Just inquisitive.:confused: |
Re: '94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
It will work, and you can just use the rear housing off the original FWD (After removing the rear Transfer unit)
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or I suspose you could get any gear ratioed trans you wanted but still weaker because they are designed for both front and rear drive? |
Re: '94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
OK, I waited.
Swapping a FWD Subaru transmission is a very easy swap! No driveshaft, no rear end. Just get the lowest mileage or rebuilt FWD Subaru transmission that you can find from a 1990-1995 subaru and be done with it! IF you use a 4.44 with a FWD tailshaft all you will do is spin the tires! The Legacy and the Impreza almost weighed the same, but I suppose that the Legacy driver had a lighter foot. You can get a FWD Subaru trans for about $250 and up, good luck to you Sir. |
Re: '94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
Looking for those 30 / 35 year old tran. can't be too easy to find.
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I was under the impression front diff would blow, not the trans.
something about the gear width or something? |
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40:9=4.44
37:9=4.11 39:10=3.90 39:11=3.545 All of the ring gears and all of the pinion gears are the same diameter. If we are only talking about the strength of the teeth in the front and rear differentials, then the ratio with the fewest number of teeth would have the thickest teeth and there fore the strongest teeth. In this case the 4.11 should have the strongest ring and pinion teeth. However the 4.44 has different first and second gear TRANSMISSION ratios that are lower than all other 4EATs by a sizeable amount making that transmission easier on the band and clutches. So, theoretically a 4.44 trans, using the 3.545 clutch basket, and a 4.11 differential SHOULD be the strongest set up. The other day when my Claret 4.44 chipped a pinion tooth after years of abuse, I just swapped in another 4.44, reinstalled my ECUTune valve body and called it a day. A REALLY long day becaust the trans that I bought has water damage issues. |
Re: '94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
Tom, get back in the shop. I'm too lazy to type that all out... :p
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One thing that I have noticed is that in almost ALL of the differential failures (regardless of ratio)
its the ring gear that breaks a tooth. I think that the only pinion tooth that broke, that I have seen was on my Claret. |
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THey, you should have hocrest type it out for you. He's FAST! Hi Dave!;) |
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lol, ok so one reason the svx fwd diff is better is because of the 37:10 teeth then?
On the fwd models obviously. And thanks I had thought there was more to the 4EAT awd vs fwd |
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Since the AWDs can have a 50/50 split a 3.7 AWD would be TWICE as strong! It would be actually stronger than twice as strong as the second diff and the driveshaft sap some of the HP & TQ.;) |
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I have found a local 4eat out of an AWD 1993 legacy turbo touring wagon that has 108K miles on it for $250. Online research seems to indicate that this has a 3.90 differential ratio, which would work on the SVX. Other responders in this thread indicate that the 4eat trannys built for the turbos have either stronger or more clutch disks in them than the non-turbo 4eat transmissions. However, some responders say that they are all the same. Does anyone know for sure? Will there be any issues with the turbo AT's torque converter bolting up with the SVX flexplate, or do I need to use a turbo flexplate with that torque converter. From Huck's post quoted above, I am lead to believe that converting an AWD 4eat to a FWD 4EAT is a simple matter of unbolting the transfer case at the back of the AWD, and bolting on the FWD rear case instead. Huck and others, have you actually done this (or the opposite), and know it's just that simple, or am I likely to need to disassemble the AWD 4eat and replace components at the tail end of the transmission or in the integrated differential in order to put the FWD rear case on it? A question I have for you folks is; how to determine how much is too much wear on a used 4eat? In my experience with other ATs, there is always some clutch material, and maybe a bit of magnetic sludge in the bottom of most ATs. I understand you just don't want to find lots of either, and certainly no metal bits or fragments. The ATF should also not be dark and smell burnt. What should I expect to see in this 100K 4EAT from the '93 legacy turbo wagon? Are there any special tell-tales that I should look for one way or the other? Is there any way to determine if the subaru 4eat transmission has been rebuilt by looking at anything on it (unless made obvious by a label or stamping)? The other local used tranny's are much higher mileage -- 165k and up, that's one of the reasons I am interested in this tranny. I am thinking of picking up the tranny tomorrow, so your timely advice is welcome. Thanks, Philip |
Re: '94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
108k on a 93 turbo trans should be fine. The turbo legacy trans is the same strength in the high clutch, may have slightly less frictions in the lower clutches but I don't recall. Either way, won't be a problem. $250 is a good price. You'll need to swap around the rear housing on the transmission as mentioned and it'll work just fine in your FWD.
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If Your own tranny has failed You may want to try to find another SVX converter. Yours will be full of debri. The turbo legacy converter has a higher stall speed and you may not like it, especially in a fwd car with lower gearing than stock.
Just something to think about. The legacy tc will bolt to the SVX flex plate. T |
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Thanks! Philip |
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If you use a 4.44 torque converter with an SVX transmission it will overheat and fail. |
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I understand that the '93 Legacy wagon Turbo tranny has a 3.9 differential -- so it's not a 4.44 TC. Do you know what the factory TC stall speeds for the '93 turbo legacy wagon, and '94 FWD SVX are? Tapani mentioned the turbo probably has a higher TC stall speed, but it would be helpful to know what the difference actually is. I haven't been able to locate this information online. I have asked my favorite Subaru Parts person Leah if she can find out this info. If she gets back to me, I'll post the answer here. It was surprised that some Subaru "aficionado" hasn't already posted a chart showing the differences between the various 4eat trannys used on various Subarus. It would be very useful information to have to have some tables showing the various clutch packs, TCs, and differential ratios were used in the various versions of the 4eat trannys, as well as an application guide showing what cars each version of the 4eat tranny were used on. If anyone here knows of such information, maybe you could start a thread and post it either on this forum, or on the www.ultimatesubaru.org/forum which would server a larger audience than just SVXs (and post a link to it on this forum). Update: Leah called back and said that the '94 FWD SVX TC has a stall of 2350-2750 RPM, the early 90's turbos have a 2800-3200 RPM stall. Thanks, Philip |
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Okay, now that we know what the TC stall RPMs are, some further questions come up:
1. I understand that the normal lockup on the TC is done by the TCU -- and so the stall RPM won't effect the lockup from a MPG standpoint on the highway. Is this correct? 2. Given that the turbo TC has a higher stall speed, what will the effect on driveability be? I would think that the major effect will be when the accelerator pedal is punched hard -- and then the engine RPM would be higher before the non-TCU RPM based manual TC lockup would occur. I would think that this might actually be somewhat beneficial because 3100RPM is probably closer to the maximum hp the 6cyl engine puts out. When downshifting to pass because of accelerator pedal depression, there might be more power at the higher RPM CT lockup which would cause it to accelerate faster when passing? At lower accelerator pedal depression, the TC would engage, but wouldn't lock up until higher RPMs were reached. Would this feel sluggish, or would the driver just get used to using higher RPMs to "get off the line" when quick acceleration from a stop was wanted? I look forward to y'all's thoughts and opinions on this. Philip |
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The TC stall speed is adjusted to match the engine characteristics. On most cases the torque multiplication is also increased with a higher stall speed - when the speed difference is great - from stand still.
Further, a higher stall speed greatly increases heat generation - this is not good. Stall speed is naturally affected by engine torque too. I had an Outback 4.444 tranny + TC in my low pressure turbo SVX. Stall speed was above 3000 rpm, very frustrating - I lost all the low end grunt in the air - heat to the fluid. Now with a stock 1996 JDM tranny + TC the stall speed is roughly 2700 rpm, I would still like to lower it to maybe 2400 rpm. Especially in higher gears the TC just churns up heat. Lower gearing, only FWD and an increased stall speed will all add up - and take the driveabilty in the wrong direction. Please remember this is just my opinion :-) Kind regards, Tapani |
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Does the 4eat have a TCU controlled TC lockup in addition to the TC controlled stall speed lockup, or is the only TC lockup done within the TC itself and based solely upon the TC stall speed?
I thought there was a TCU controlled lockup that would take over once the car got up to 4th gear and cruising speeds. I found this file with a dyno test of the eg33: http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/SVXtypeR/797.jpg Given the torque and HP curve listed here, I am wondering what the higher TC stall speed will feel like. It seems it would make it seem more like a sprinter when the accel pedal was punched. I've never dealt with upping the TC stall speed before, so I am really hoping for some more feedback. Tapani is concerned about this -- but he also went with a 4.44 ratio AWD tranny coming from a 3.5 ratio tranny. I am going from a 3.7 FWD tranny to a 3.9 FWD tranny -- no where near the difference in differential ratio. I am planning on installing the tranny mid next week, so I hope to get some opinions from y'all on the driveability issues with the 3.9 differential ratio and the higher stall speed TC. BTW, if there is a TCU controlled TC lockup, what is that based on -- being in 4th gear, or rpm, or what? Looking forward to your thoughts and experiences with this. Thanks, Philip |
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I have a 3.70 JDM transmission. I used to have a 4.444 4ACT from a 2.2 n/a 1996 Outback. The (stock) SVX is an old skool relaxed gentlemans grand tourer. Keep it that way :D. And do not forget the heat generation issue. /T |
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If you take the number 1849 and subtract the world standard performance number, 1320, as in how many feet in the 1/4 mile you are left with 529. From this number you must OBVIOUSLY subtract 230 as in the flat 6 HP, leaving 299, and from that subtract 228 as our stock torque! :) Now left with the number 71 you have to go back to Subaru roots, as in the SEVEN Sisters, DUH! Leaving the numbet 64! 6 - 4. Another way of saying TEN! And as we all know the SVX stands for Safety Vehicle X or 10. Good show Huck, Good, show! |
Re: '94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
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I have purchased the '93 Legacy turbo Touring wagon 4EAT tranny, and have ordered a tranny filter and gasket kit, and new input and axle seals. The transmission number and model are: 479801 TZ102ZJ3AA-N8 Issue #1: I am still mulling over the issue of the impact of the higher stall speed of the Turbo donor TC on driveability. I value and am taking Tapani's opinions into account -- but haven't heard anything definitive from the rest of you folks (other than to avoid 4.44 final ratio). Tom says it will work, but hasn't offered an opinion on what the impact to driveability will be. Huck just put a post out with a bunch of periods. Doesn't anyone else have any experience to share on this -- either agreeing with or disagreeing with Tapani????? :confused: So y'all don't have to dig to get them, here are the specs on this '94 FWD SVX -- the stock tranny had a 3.7 final ratio in the integrated front differential, and a TC stall speed of 2350-2750 RPM. The replacement tranny from the '93 legacy turbo donor has a 3.9 final ratio, and it's TC has a stall speed of 2800-3200. Should I be looking for a lower stall speed TC because the Turbo TC will make the SVX feel really sluggish at lower RPMs, or will the donor TC just make the SVX feel more "sporty" and "aggressive" like some of the Turbo models do? How about sharing some experience and opinions here? Issue #2: On to the next topic -- as part of this tranny swap, I am raising the transmission cooling question again.... I've read a bunch of threads on this forum, and haven't seen anything resembling a consensus being formed. Here are the issues that seem to surface in the threads: 1. What I have read seems to indicate that extra cooling is a good thing for the most part -- especially in stop-n-go driving. 2. I've also read that flow restriction is a major problem -- especially when incorporating the stock radiator cooler in series with an external cooler. Tom favors bypassing the radiator cooler altogether. Others say to put it in series with the external cooler 1st to reduce the temp, and the stock cooler 2nd acting as a temperature regulator to keep the fluid warm but not too hot. 3. I've also read that in cooler ambient temperatures too much cooling is not a good thing as it prevents the TC lockup clutch from engaging (fluid must be at 150 degrees F or better). If the fluid temp is really low, it might not shift into 4th gear. 4. A number of folks have worried about 3/8" connectors reducing flow. 5. Some folks are using automatic t-stat valves to divert the flow to an external cooler from either the stock cooler or from simply recirculating it back into the tranny. The t-stat valves open when the fluid temp is raised up to about 160-170 degrees F). Others have expressed concern about fluid restriction using these valves, and a concern that their likely potential failure mode is to be "closed", meaning that the fluid could overheat if the valve fails and the external cooler fluid path is left out. 6. I have only seen one mention of running an external cooler in parallel with the stock radiator cooling fluid circuit. This was by Tom, stating that a customer had requested it. How did that work out? Given all that I have read, I am leaning towards installing a smaller (10000 GVW rated) external tubing-and-fin type cooler in parallel with the stock radiator cooling fluid circuit, and mounting it in between the condenser and radiator as Tom has suggested. It seems to me that this would eliminate the need for an additional cooling fan and would also provide some (hopefully enough) heating from the coolant in the radiator to allow the TC lockup to function in colder temps. I live in the Pacific NW (Oregon), so the temps seldom go lower than freezing -- most of the winter they stay in the high 30's to low 40's F. In the summer the daytime temps vary between the high 70's to the upper 90's, so I think additional cooling would be helpful -- especially for in-town driving. I might install a ball-valve inline in the external cooler's fluid circuit for the odd sub-freezing temperature weather that sometimes hits in the winters here. Sooooo, what do you "experts" think about the parallel installation? Is the 10000GVW external cooler a correct size, or do you recommend something else? Let the opinions fly! Issue #3: I understand that the early 4-EAT pump seals were problematic and could leak reducing the fluid flow and pressure. How hard is it to get to and change the 4-EAT pump seal? Would I need to disassemble the tranny, or is it something that can be done by just taking off the pan? Thanks again for all your recommendations.... Philip |
Re: '94 FWD transmission non conversion swap questions
Oregon winters are "real" - yes?
I commute 20 miles each morning. Now that the ambient has dropped to below 10C in the morning the tranny pan temp reaches only app 120-130 F, so no TCC lock up. My cooling set up right now is an external cooler between the rad and the AC condenser, I have disconnected the bypass valve. I also have a valve body from ECUtune which is supposed to increase the cooling circuit flow rate. This is for the occational track days. I will go back to the rad bottom cooler alone for the approaching winter. I may try the bypass valve during the coldest months.... If you want to monitor the fluid temp a gauge is very easy to install. I have my sensor in the drain plug. You have all the basics correct - you just need to decide what you want. One approach is to try :). Install the tranny as it is, with the TC and all and have a taste. Just drive it ! I think you have done a good job and dug into all this quite deep - why not repair your own tranny yourself? Not much harder than swapping the pump gasket..... Or go all the way, convert to VTD four wheel drive :eek:. JDM trannies are available as are 3.7 rear diffs. You just need to sort out the TCU with a chip burned with the correct firmware. Good luck, /T |
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First off, thanks for your thoughtful, helpful and encouraging responses! Although we are above the 45th parallel in the Pacific NW in Oregon and Washington (include western BC, Canada too), the winters are surprisingly mild -- nothing like you are used to in Finland. This is due to a warm Pacific current that comes across from Japan, and keeps the temperatures on the west side of the Cascade mountain range warmer in the winters. As I mentioned in the previous post, the normal winter temperatures are in the mid 40's F (about 8-10 C). We get a lot of rain in the winter, which is why the area is home to a temperate rain forest. Every 5 years or so the arctic jet stream pushes south and we get a week or two of hard freezing temperatures, and a snow storm with 3-4 inches of snow -- but it's a rarity. The summers are quite dry and warm though (which is why I am installing a tranny cooler). I am still hoping to hear from some of the other "experts" on the forum with their opinions and experiences on the 3 issues I raised below. Philip |
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If you put a 230HP engine in front of a trans designed for 160HP the stall speed will be forced up. BTW stall speed is only reached if you power block an engine as in drag racing. If you are worried about it then just use an SVX torque converter. 2) My automatic SVXi have a transmission cooler run in series with the factory radiator IF that car has a factory radiator. If it has a factory radiator the aftermarket cooler is before the factory cooler so that in the winter the radiator reheats the transmission fluid back up to a workable temperature. 3) you have to dissassemble the trans to do a pump seal. BTW, The 4.44 does not hurt gas milage in an area with hills or mountains! Even with the crappy ethenol gasoline I still get over 20mpg in The Mountain State. |
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Here's another update....
First off many thanks to all the experts that replied and shared their experience and opinions. It's been very helpful and enlightening! In the last update, I shared that I had acquired a transmission from a '93 turbo legacy wagon that had a 3.9 final differential gear ratio. Since then, I came across a local SVX owner who was selling an AWD SVX transmission that had a bad transfer case solenoid at a reduced price of $180. Since my SVX is a FWD -- not AWD, I can simply remove the transfer case (and it's solenoid), and replace it with the bad transmission's rear case plate. By doing this, I'll have a FWD SVX with a 3.5 final differential gear ratio. This should hopefully improve highway mileage by keeping the RPMs lower at highway speed. Thanks to Tom for suggesting putting the aftermarket tranny cooler in SERIES and BEFORE the stock radiator instead of my original plan to put it in parallel. This solves the potential for the transmission fluid never getting warm enough in the winter time -- because the stock radiator will heat the fluid back up to operating temperatures before it returns to the tranny. I hope to have this done in the next couple of weeks and get this SVX back on the road again. I'll either keep and use the '93 AWD turbo Legacy wagon 4EAT tranny elsewhere, or sell it. Philip |
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