unorthodox pulleys...

[SVX-Sti]

I wanna know who tried out those pulleys are really good or not? and how about the price??

SVX-Sti

[kastle]

I've used the pulley on my Impreza and like it. I'm even leaving it on when the turbo kit gets installed this week. I haven't used one on the SVX, but would like to. Runs $200ish new with belts.

[Jaylinb]

I know Eric (Blonde_Man) installed an Unorthodox Racing pulley on his SVX, although I think he has since decided to sell the car. You can do a search of the yahoo archive and pull up his posts about it. He was apparently very satisfied with the results he got - but then, Eric is always very enthusiastic about things!

[Rev Hard]

im still trying to figure out what effects it will have on the motor in the long run. Not having the damper built in the pulley could be a bad thing........ Hmmm.

It sounds tempting though. Any way to free up power is a good thing. I suppose it would help low end most, being there is less mass to start rotating..

Hmm, now i want one...

PAUL!

[SVX10]

I talked to Teague's auto and found out that he has had a pulley on his SVX for about 2 weeks. The price rose from $186 to $225, but that is due to Unorthodox, not Teague's. Anyway, the person I talked to said that he noticed an increase in power, and a definate increased in gas mileage. As far as engine damage goes, he has had one on his legacy for some time, and he has had no problems...I really don't think that there would be problems. I am planning to buy one soon, so it was good to have a report from somebody who has used it. He also says that there is no drain in electical power at stop lights, which is one thing I was worried about. I have a question, though...is there a difference between the JC sports pulley and the Unorthodox pulley? When I went to JC sports, the guy said I should expect a strain on the electrical system at low RPM. Plus, the JC pulley is about $75 cheaper, and a little heavier. I'm really optimistic about buying one now. Hope this info helped you all out.
SVX10

[deligeds]

I too was thinking pretty seriously about trying a lighter and/or undersized pulley for a while. This article, and a couple more like it, talked me out of the whole idea:

http://www.supras.com/~riemer/sonictech/tet/dualratedamper.html

It seems to me to be a strong argument against a non-stock pulley, but who knows for sure. I've also heard of people using them for years with no noticeably bad effects. Knowing my luck as I do, I'm going to have to play it safe.

[blonde_man]

I have one on my SVX. Go here to read all about it.

http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Forum3/HTML/000090.html

Also go here and search for Unorthodox, and you'll be able to read my posts, and our discussions on Yahoo.

http://svx.knowfear.net/

Enjoy, and after reading all that, let me know if you have anymore questions. Haven't gone to the track yet to get 1/4 mi times(soon will). Last fill up was 306 miles and 16 gallons. I drive hard though. It should help gas mileage. I hope those savings at the pump will pay for the pulley over time! Electrical system is pretty low at warm idle, even after 4gauge wire/ground upgrade. About 11.7 volts with headlights, foglights, and climate control fan on. Warm idle voltage without load is better though. I'd recommend rebuilding/upgrading the alternator to produce more amps, if you sit in a lot of traffic.

Also the SVX engine is horizontally opposed. Pretty much perfectly balanced. Subaru even boasts that the setup saves weight, because the "stable" flat engine doesn't need as many engine mounts/supports, as an Inline or V shaped engine. So there should be no engine damage from harmonics. The rubber dampener on the stock pulley was just for sound reduction probably.

Hope this helps.

[Rev Hard]

I want one... I dont want one... I DO want one... no.. maybe not... i dunno how about someone GIVES me one... yeah thats the ticket...

PAUL!

[SVX10]

I really want to get a pulley because everbody I have talked to says it really improves perfomance. A Legacy Outback owner reported a .5 second drop on the quarter mile after only the pulley change. The only problem is that I have only heard technical arguments AGAINST the pulley. I went to Unorthodox Racing's homepage and found some information, but I don't know how valid it is. Could a mechanically inclined member go to the page http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/faq.html and let us know how valid their statements for their pulleys are? I just want to make sure they're not giving misleading info. Thanks.
Mat

[blonde_man]

No dude. I'm sorry Mat, but there is NO REASON why we should do that for you. If you will re-read my post, I gave PLENTY of ways on how to look up info on the Unorthodox Racing Underdrive Pulley. Like I said in that message, go check out both of those links and do a search. You'll be reading for hours, and will get all of your questions answered.

This place isn't for spoon feeding. Learn to do some research on your own. It doesn't hurt, and you WILL learn something!

[SVX10]

Well, blondeman, I read both all of your links and I only found 1 paragraph that's even relevant to the question I asked. So, thanks, but it didn't help much. If you don't want to help me out, that's fine. I've done my reasearch and come to a problem. I have some Toyota Supra site telling me that the pulleys are bad for all engines, and Unorthodox Racing's site telling me that the pulley has no effect on the balancing because "The factory pulleys on today's late model cars (from 1986 to Present and sometimes even earlier depending on the vehicle) serve two functions. First and most importantly they are designed to reduce or eliminate the audible noises herd in the cabin of the car that the accessories (alternator, air conditioning, power steering, and air pump) make when the engine is running. This fact exhibits the factory fanaticism about making the car quiet for the occupants (i.e. the use of resonators in the intake to quiet intake noise, all aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators). It has nothing to do with engine function or longevity.

The second function of late model crank pulleys is torsional damping. Torsional damping is necessary due to the excessive diameter and weight of the factory crank pulleys. The design of our underdrive crank pulleys eliminates the need for any torsional damping for two reasons. One, the diameter of our crank pulleys is smaller than the original designs, in almost all cases smaller even than the rubber torsional ring, therefore effectively reducing the force the accessories have on the crankshaft. Second and most importantly is that our pulleys are significantly lighter than their OEM counterparts (anywhere from 3 to 11 lbs.). This weight loss dramatically reduces the stress exerted upon the rotating assembly by the excessively heavy factory crank pulley.

Our pulleys are so well balanced that when owners call us about how happy they are with the product they always mention their motor feeling smoother. Lastly is the misconception that the crank pulleys on these vehicles are harmonic dampers. A harmonic damper is a unit bolted to the crankshaft snout that is completely separate from the belt drive system. An engine that uses a harmonic damper has the accessory drive crank pulley bolted to it, they are separate pieces that are attached to each other. Balance shafts, which are used by several manufacturers, are specifically designed to eliminate harmonic vibrations. None of the vehicles we manufacture pulleys for have harmonic dampers in the traditional sense.

Owners who have engines that use balance shafts must understand that if they eliminate their balance shafts their engines must be balanced to 0 grams if they expect to have no long-term engine problems with or without the use of our crank pulleys. Our pulleys are made with 6061-T6 aluminum billet which is a very consistent material and the CNC machining process ensures that all our pulleys are perfectly true. This balance shaft elimination is rare and only happens on a few models that are modified for racing only (Eclipse/Talon/Laser/Galant VR4/Conquest TSI/Starion just to name a few)."

Now, I didn't completely understand either the Supra site or the Unorthodox site, but I understood enough to find that one says they're bad, and one says they're good. I'm betting we both know that, since they contradict each other, they can't both be true. That's why I came to the post. I would think that UR would give misleading info rather than a blunt "our pulley's will probably damage your engine." Don't you? So, basically, I did my research, came to a point where two things I found were contradiciting each other, and came to the post to see if anybody could verify the UR claims. Now, if you want to keep telling me to do my own research, go for it. Just don't refer me to your pages because they didn't help at all.
SVX10

[Rev Hard]

Personally you have to think of who has more to lose...

The supra site 'could' be sued for slander.. big deal no million dollar case there..

The UR site well if someone 'DID' prove them to be giving out wrong info they would be liable to ALL the ppl with those pulleys. nowhere on their site does it say "use at your own risk" therefore they are not even covering their backs. UR has been around for a good amount of time and has done ALOT of business. Believe what you may but after reading the site you posted i am alot more inclined to ourchase one of their pulleys. (On a side note they allmost say that the honda mazda focus pulley will help lead to a oil pump failure)

CONCLUSION: Do to the fact that what they say on their site could make them liable to hundreds of lawsuits were it proven wrong. I belive UR.

[blonde_man]

Hey Mat,

During your THOROUGH research, did you happen to stumble upon this message?
http://svx.knowfear.net/article.php?message=49780

Also you know that the I-Club has nearly 5000 members, many of whom have installed the UR Pulley. They also have posted about it. Did you do a search over at the I-Club? I did, and found plenty of information. What I read there led me to buy it in the first place.

Also a friend of mine has one in his '97 Impreza OBS turbo. He goes dragracing at racetracks weekly. After 40,000 STRENUOUS, race filled miles with turbo and nitrous, he's only been able to chew up his 4EAT, but the EJ22 (engine)is still running strong!

Don't believe everything you read over the internet. There are a lot of lies and unsubstantiated rumors spread over it. The only way to find the truth is to keep doing research. The more information you find, the more you'll notice a pattern. That pattern usually brings you to the truth. If the UR Pulley was bad, I'd think that there would be a lot more websites discouraging it's use.

I personally don't recommend the UR Pulley, unless your current pulley has to be replaced, due to old age deterioration or damage. I'm always against removing and replacing any perfectly functioning part. A fraction of a second faster quarter mile, really doesn't give many real world benefits. $235 for 7hp isn't that sound of a purchase. I'm not sure, but maybe my fuel economy has slighly improved. That may be good in the long run. So if you've got the money to burn, and are just after looks/bragging rights, have fun. If not, think twice, before spending extra money for non-essential work on this car.

Good luck!

[deligeds]

"If the UR Pulley was bad, I'd think that there would be a lot more websites discouraging it's use."

Not to unnecessarily fuel this fire, but I personally had no idea that light/undersized pulleys could damage crank bolts and bearings before starting my research. I posted the Supra article because it was one of many, many articles on the web that discouraged non-stock pulleys, and explained the potential problems quite well. Before doing any research, I was actually hoping to purchase a UR pulley myself, but it was the overwhelming amount of negative information that convinced me otherwise. Try some searches on your favorite search engine: "light crank pulley" or "underdrive crank pulley".

I'm certainly not claiming that I have either the engineering knowledge or the first-hand experience to make a recommendation here. It seems that this is one of those issues that has driven raging debates on automotive boards across the web. I found both passionate endorsements and frightening discouragements, but, without a doubt, there are plenty of negative arguments out there.

[Rev Hard]

Look at the LEGAL issues....
thats good enough reason for me to go get one..
But I'll still take one for free if someone wants to donate it....

PAUL!

[SVX10]

Thanks for the input, everybody. I've decided that I want one, but, like blondeman said, I'm not sure it's worth the price. So, I'm still undecided as to whether or not I'm gonna buy it, but I am now more comfortable that it won't damage the engine. I hope the info I've provided has helped some of you out.
Mat

[svxboy]

Just to let you know JC Sports offers a lightened pulley that remains the factory size. No loss of power, just less mass to spin. -Greg

[micah]

Just my $0.02 here. People have reported the car feeling "smoother" with an aftermarket pulley with no damper. So the damper is not there for NVH. And I'm quite sure it's not there for no reason.

A horizontally opposed engine does indeed have good balance against lateral vibration. However no engine configuration can be _torsionally_ balanced. All the combustion forces on the crankshaft tend to rotate it in the same direction and this creates torsional imbalance, which to my knowledge is why the torsional damper is there.

"The design of our underdrive crank pulleys eliminates the need for any torsional damping". I would like to see some FEA behind this rather than some vague hand-waving.

Just my $0.02
mbs

[zsvx]

Just looking through my Chilton's manual and noticed they list a Subaru part # for the crankshaft pulley wrench. It's # 499205500. subaruparts.com does not have this in stock (i checked).

[cdigerlando]

Supras are a straight 6 configuration, and although the surpa is an incredible performer, straight engines sometimes require counter balancing, like the big 4 banger porsche engines in the 944. 3.0 liter 4 cylinder!. Balance is really important. That may be why they had trouble. If the pully was properly constructed and balanced to the engine I doubt this would have had much of an effect on the bearings.

Our engines are so well balanced I doubt this would be an issue. I would like to point out that you cannot sue me if your bearings go I am an amature and not responsible for the stupid things I might say on this site. Ha Ha. Anyway, I love my SVX and I am very careful about mods but if blonde man says its OK, golly I'm going to try it. It can't hurt the engine any more than the turbo. Right now I'm just praying the tranny holds.

Hear that BMan....I'm trying your ****, next you need to try mine.....the turbo.

Chuck
92 silver/black SVX LS-L turbo
02 silver impreza WRX

PS. I'm still crazy about my SVX.

[1994SubaruSVX]

nothing pisses me off more as a member of this club then some one coming down on someone else for no reason. you need to chill out blondeman. just because you have an underdrive pulley and feel comfortable does not mean they are right for everyone and does not mean that there are not going to be problems. this car is notorious for having alternator and electrical system problems. regardless of whether or not the motor is balance why would you even want to give the car an excuse to screw up. for chuck it is different because he is past the point of return with the turbo and all. but some of us use this car as our primary means of transportation. some mods are very innocent and how the effect the car: air filter, exhaust, and even suspension to a point, but others can have a dramatic effect on the car. you say the 7hp gain is minimal but for what you are actually doing to the car i completely disagree. i think if you can get 7 more hp just from changing a pulley that is awesome. but we all have to remember that this car's motor was built to squeeze every ounce of horsepower it could from only 3.3L. it is too risky for me because not enough people with SVX's have tried this underdrive pulley for any real length of time. so basically no one really knows long term what this thing will do to the SVX. i hope it does nothing because hell who wouldnt want 7 more hp. just be cool and dont be so quick to slam someone who maybe isnt so impulsive like you. good luck guys!

[cdigerlando]

I agree with you. For many years, and until just recently this car was my only way to get to work. Pretty important. I can understand why a lot of people would not want to do the mods for that reason. Also, many people just want to keep their car clean and in great condition. I agree with that point of view too.

The frustrating thing for me and BM is that so many people (not you) have *****ed about the fact that there are no mods available. When they become available these people seem to dissapear, and supplyers have felt left holding the bag. I know that is the case with the turbo kit which may be discontinued due to the lack of buisness. Lots of people call Robert and waste his time, not supporting his efforts.

Bottom line. If you do mods, even good ones like the turbo, you will wear out your engine faster. I have no doubt about that. If you are satisfied with the SVX's power, cannot afford mods, or completely depend on the car for transportation, then these things should not be attempted. If people ***** about lack of mods to me again, I will point to the fact that most SVXers do not want to do mods, on an already unusual and powerful car in its stock condition.

[1994SubaruSVX]

I am definitely for mods and like mods, I just do not like when some people try to force feed mods on people who are not interested. I have done a lot of mods but they are proven to be successful: custom exhaust, aftermarket wheels and tires, k&n filter, koni's and ground control's, and cross drilled rotors. I too was very interested in the under drive pulley system but I just do not think there is enough info. on what this will do to your car. I have never owned a car that I did not modify but the key to modifying is choosing wisely, especially with the SVX. My experience with this car is that it is very sensitive and so that is why I approach mods with caution and only choose them after exhaustive research. Chuck I think it is awesome what you are doing with your car. Good luck and I hope your turbo works out.

[blonde_man]

1994SubaruSVX,
Dude you've got nothing to worry about. I'm totally chilled, but you should take your own advice. I don't know what cactus you were sitting on when you typed up that message, but don't take it out on me! :mad:

I didn't "come down" or "force feed" anything on anyone. Also I did not recommend the pulley to anyone. I was just reporting my experience with the Unorthodox Racing Underdrive Pulley on my SVX. I know all about the electrical system deficiencies (low revving alternator, thin power cables, poor grounding). If you will reread my post, I even recommended upgrading the alternator to produce more power, if you install the underdrive pulley. I personally added some 4 gauge wires from the alternator to the battery and ground and it might've helped, but my voltage readings are still low. Recently, I have even seen 10.8 volts on my cigarete-lighter voltage meter! So an alternator rebuild/upgrade will definitely be in my future! For now I downshift while decelerating, to charge up the battery before I come to a stop. :D

As for Chuck and his turbo:
I just cringe everytime I think about it! $4000 for just 2.5psi and about 20hp(stock fuel injectors max out @ 250hp)!! It doesn't make sense to me at all. I pray that fuel starved H6 of your's keeps growling! All you have to do is get an EGT (exhast gas temperature) gauge, Apexi SAFC (air/fuel ratio controller) and increase the fuel pressure with a fuel pressure regulator, and you could safely and easily get over 300hp with over 7psi of boost. All that would cost you about $500+/-. For even more power you could also get an Ignition Timing Controller for another $200-$300. Spending $4000 for a turbo and then wrecking your engine by not PROPERLY installing/running it is completely crazy IMO.

I understand you are patiently approaching your modificationss in steps, but i think you skipped the first and most important step: FUEL!!! Even 2.5psi of boost is too much for a normally aspirated engine. I bet if you installed an EGT gauge or Air/Fuel ratio meter, you'd find out that your engine is running WAY lean! Even though our fuel injectors are designed to put out enough fuel for a maximum 250hp, injectors should never be used in excess of 85% of their max flow rate or they will become static(always open), and eventually fail. So I can care less how fast or slow your project progresses. I just worry that something could go wrong with it.

About 1994SubaruSVX's claims about "safe mods:"
A modification is just that. You are changing the way something was PAINSTAKINGLY designed to operate! Second guessing the THOUSANDS of hours of research and development by KNOWLEDGEABLE engineers. Every time you "mod" your car you are taking a risk. Nothing is ever TOTALLY SAFE. IMO Air filters and custom exhausts are a JOKE! If you even get a performance gain, it would be marginal at best, and you even have a GOOD chance of LOSING power! The SVX already came out of the factory as a PERFORMANCE CAR. There are no cheap ways to make it faster. Speed costs money. I'm not saying that the SVX is not able to be modified to go faster though. The SVX produces 69.7hp per liter, which is pretty good, but a TRUE HIGH-PERFORMANCE automobile makes close to 100hp per liter in normally apirated form, and twice that with forced induction. So the heavy SVX still has some way to go in that respect before it's able to get out of it's own way!

You claim the Underdrive pulley is dangerous to the motor, but what do you think about the safety of those air filters? How do you think they "make more power??" They make it less restrictive by filtering LESS!! You might as well stretch pantyhose over your air intake, or just remove your filter altogether! Hey I hear they're now selling air filter by-pass valves, so the air can get around the filter! You'd better get your's now before they're all sold out! Also installing a cone filter in the HOT engine bay is a joke. I can think of no better way to ruin (overheat) your engine and reduce power output!

In closing I must say that the SVX has been a TOTAL JINX for anyone and anything that has had to deal with it since it rolled out of the factory! Subaru got burned badly with lack of public interest and sales. SVX Owners got screwed with the terrible/expensive service, transmission failures, police stops and resale impossibility. It's no surprise to me that any vendors catering products to SVX owners would also get BURNED.

So I tell everyone, the further away you are from SVXes the better! If you already own an SVX, I feel for you, and GOOD LUCK! You'll defintely need it! For those that are crazy enough to even want to modify their SVXes, I hear there is a special insane asylum waiting for you!

[SVX10]

Well, I gave in and bought the pulley. Teagues told me I should have it by Friday. I'm looking forward to putting it on. I'll let you all know how it goes.

[cdigerlando]

I think you have some very economical suggestions, but I am looking for something a little more user friendly to tune. I think you will agree that a pem II or halitec software system will be easier to tune than the mods you just suggested. Granted it is more expensive, and probably not the best way to spend my money, but hey, the stock market sucks right now.

As for ruining my engine, the car has never run better! The SVX has a stock pressure regulator to push the fuel under boost! The injectors are too darn small. These will also be changed as I have told you before.

Also I have done water injection which has helped the timing some.

I know you are anxious to see this resolved. When the bumper is done and the radiator installed, The SVX goes in the shop for injectors, A/W intercooler, engine management w/electronic waste gate control. I have the money and a second car now.

I know you are anxious. Think about how I feel!

Chuck

BTW, donations to the SVX improvement fund are accepted, for all of this research.......just kidding.

[svxboy]

Well it looks like I will be meeting Blondeman at the insane asylum then. -Greg

[1994SubaruSVX]

blondeman if you hate the car so much why do you even own one?? do you really even own an svx??

sure the car has its problems but it is a classic love/hate relationship with love always winning in the end. you keep saying the svx was designed as a high performance car and you are just wrong! it was designed as a sports coupe. a touring coupe that would be in the same class as the lexus sc 300/400. the svx just has a sportier skin.

how can you recommend someone install the underdrive pulley when you are only generating 10.8 volts and have to downshift when decelerating?? how can anyone enjoy the car with that burden? it is just not a "safe mod". let me clarify to you what i mean by safe seeing as you dont get it. a turbo would be risky and therefore unsafe. a drop in k&n filter is relatively "safe" because only helps the car breathe a little better. the k&n airfilter is less restrictive because it is made of a more effecient material. do you read??

the svx is not for everyone because it does require lots of patience. perhaps you should take your own advice and stay away from the svx. maybe you can sell you car to some sucker looking for a really nice car that outlooks most cars being made today, a car that comes stock with 230hp, all wheel drive, climate control, and tons of performance potential. a car that is comfortable and tons of fun to drive.

as far as insane asylums go, where do i sign up?!

[svxboy]

It is for the reason of the low voltage that I am going with a lightened but not smaller diameter crank pulley. The Factory pulley is heavy and does hold back some of the motor's potential, especially off the line. The lightened pulley is the same size as the factory one but weighs not more than a couple of pounds. It is made out of billet aluminum instead of the factory cast iron one. Any comments? -Greg

[1994SubaruSVX]

well that does make it seem more reasonable, but will you still get the same horsepower increase by keeping the pulley the same size?

[SVX10]

What are you talking about...horsepower gains. Don't you realize that you're never gonna gain any horsepower. Hundreds of Subaru engineers spent thousands of hours designing the pulley to make the SVX a super performance car. You may gain a little at low RPM's, but you'll lose the same amount at the top end. It's IMPOSSIBLE to make your SVX faster, so you might as well stop trying. Shoot, if being able to brag to your friends about a lightweight pulley that does nothing is what you want, then go for it. I'm just trying to bring you back to reality.......NOT! Sorry blondeman, it was just too good of an opportunity to pass up.
Still don't have my pulley, but I can't wait to get it. Got the belts, so the pulley can't be too far away.

[deligeds]

. . . laughing out loud . . . can't type . . . must stop laughing . . .

[SVX10]

I put the pulley in on Thursday night. It wasn't too hard once I broke loose the bolt holding the stock pulley on. I feel a difference in acceleration, but I haven't had a chance to check gas mileage. If you got any questions I'll do my best to answer them.

[cdigerlando]

How is the AC, Power steering, and e-systems. Have you run idle with lights AC and some other systems on? Do the headlights dim? Do you have a voltmeter?

[SVX10]

I ran the car at idle before the pulley was changed. I had the stereo on (stock stereo), the AC on, the rear defrost on, the wipers on, the headlights on high. With the stock pulley it was just barely in the "OK" range on my voltmeter. Then, I switched the pulley. I ran the car at idle with the same stuff on. It dropped just barely into the "low" range on the voltmeter. I don't know what "OK" and "low" correspond to in terms of numbers. I do know that the difference is NOT noticeable. The headlights dim, but I only knew that because I had my lights shining on my garage wall about 4 feet in front of me. I revved the engine and they brightened. I did the same out on the street, though, and it was hardly noticeable because it wasn't glaring back at me off of a wall. The AC is fine. I worried on the first drive because I turned it on and the air wasn't cold AT ALL! So, I put the temp down to 68 deg. and it blasted out cold air just as cold as before. It's worked like normal since. It was only 75 deg. outside, though, so I'll have to see how it does when it's approaching 100 deg. here in NM. Also, I can't tell any difference in the power steering. What I've noticed is that when I go to pass somebody on the interstate or something, when I'm not flooring it, it downshifts, and you get better acceleration out of that downshift. I notice it when it's floored, but it's really nice when you get a little more "pep" out of the downshifts. So, I'm really pleased with it, but I will probably try the 4 guage wire upgrade to get the voltmeter back into the "OK" range. Whenever I'm not at idle, though, I have no problems. I'll let you know how gas mileage is a little later on. I'm getting 2 MPG better since I had a wheel bearing replaced, so hopefully the pulley can bump it up a little more.
Ma