Bearings 101..

[Alcyone SVX LSL]

OK i know my bearings are shot... I will have the local Subie place do the work cause i have no place to get that involved with my car. Thing is what all do i need? I put a link below please name what part #s i need other then just 21.

http://www.subaruparts.com/diag/?model=2&year=1992&style=4WD&body=&scn=2&category=281-A

When i go to have this done what should i make sure is done? I know they have to be cleaned out and packed with proper grease other than that i dont know though...


Thanx for the help guys.

[mohrds]

A well educated person told me that there is discussion about adapting an older Legacy tapered bearing rear setup instead of the newer style straight bearing that the SVX and Forrester have.

It may be worth investigating. There are probably lots of taper bearing Subarus in the junkyards.

Doug

[mattski]

The bearings should be taken off and torqued back on to the proper setting with the wheels off the ground.

Matt

[Aredubjay]

You'll want to replace:

The Bearing
The inner seal
The outer seal

So, in this diagram, you'll need parts 21, 23 and 24 for each side.

Make sure they take a good look at the housing to make sure it has not been damaged in any way.

[Beav]

Originally posted by mohrds
A well educated person told me that there is discussion about adapting an older Legacy tapered bearing rear setup instead of the newer style straight bearing that the SVX and Forrester have.

It may be worth investigating. There are probably lots of taper bearing Subarus in the junkyards.

Doug

That might make for interesting reading - is this discussion on the web? I'm curious as I've never seen a straight bearing on any Subaru, but I'm no expert. The rear bearings on SVXs are certainly double tapered, however.

[Alcyone SVX LSL]

OK should i use the grease on the same page as the bearings???

[Beav]

Any good high-temp, disc brake rated wheel bearing grease will work just fine. Try to stick with a brand name you're familiar with - Vavoline, Texaco, etc.

[mohrds]

Originally posted by Beav


That might make for interesting reading - is this discussion on the web? I'm curious as I've never seen a straight bearing on any Subaru, but I'm no expert. The rear bearings on SVXs are certainly double tapered, however.

It was a discussion that John (Lightning_8669) was having with the dealer that keeps replacing bearings on his Legacy. The mechanic was talking about how the old tapered bearings on Subarus never went bad and that a few guys have put the older style carrier, bearing, and a hub on their own newer Subarus to resolve the problem.

I'm only the messenger, but I'd be ppy to get more details if you want.

Doug

[mbtoloczko]

Originally posted by Beav
Any good high-temp, disc brake rated wheel bearing grease will work just fine. Try to stick with a brand name you're familiar with - Vavoline, Texaco, etc.

When I replaced the rear wheel bearings on my SVX, I did a bit of research on wheel bearing grease, and my feeling is that there are differences in quality between brands of wheel bearing grease. I ended up choosing a brand called Magnalube (mail ordered it) because it did well in a variety of standarized tests that qualify lubrication efficiency of grease. However, I consider its use on my SVX wheel bearings to be a bit of an experiment because the test data on this grease were missing one key characterization, and thus, I would hesitate to recommend it to anyone else until I see how well it works for me. Other brands that tested well are Redline CV1 grease (Summit has it) and Sta-lube ultra-whatever (red container) wheel bearing grease (available at many auto parts stores).

[Beav]

Originally posted by mohrds


It was a discussion that John (Lightning_8669) was having with the dealer that keeps replacing bearings on his Legacy. The mechanic was talking about how the old tapered bearings on Subarus never went bad and that a few guys have put the older style carrier, bearing, and a hub on their own newer Subarus to resolve the problem.

I'm only the messenger, but I'd be ppy to get more details if you want.

Doug

I've replaced quite a few bearings in just about every kind of Subie from FF1s to the SVX, but not much in the way of the newer models, I don't see many of them here. Typically flat roller bearings are used in straight axle, rwd vehicles as the axle floats in the bearing. There's really no way to retain the wheel hub without opposed bearings in an independant wheel. I do think some of the older Subies may have used opposed ball bearings rather than opposed tapered bearings... I work on too many cars to remember the little details (jeez, some days I feel like I have Kelly Bundy's brain, in order to retain a new fact I have to let go of an old one... ;) )

My humble opinion is that the SVX bearings are similar in size to those found in their lighter weight cars, although I've never had the chance to compare them physically, hence the failure rate. The first SVX bearing I replaced amazed me by the diminuitive size of the rollers. Even our cheap, excuse me - entry level, domestic junk has larger rollers.

[mohrds]

A couple of new developments. The 2003 model year Forester and Imprezas are now equipped with the Legacy taper bearings instead of the previous (SVX Style) versions. This would appear to indicate that Subaru is aware of the problem (Todd Sipher at SOA in New Jersey actually told me as much) they are not offering customers of previous year models any assistance in correcting the problem.

Existing Forrester, Impreza, and SVX parts and remedy being done with the endorsement of Subaru of Canada:

The (original) part Number is 28016AA030 superceded by (legacy bearing) SCI541005. This is a duplex roller assembly and meets form, fit and function requirements. The bearing manufacturer's Part Number is: 46T0807050 and the manufacturer is Koyo, Japan. This was done with the endorsement of Subaru Canada.

For the 'bearing nuts' amongst us Koyo Bearings are located in Plymouth Michigan,
Tel. (734) 454-1500 and SKF has a very technical website with lots of useful data. http://www.skfusa.com/

instructions and installation tips can be found at:
http://www.ranma.com/~harlock/subaru/wheelbearings.html

[Mr. Pockets]

Doug, I could friggin' kiss you. When I see Amber tonight, I'll get you a gold star!

One of us needs to try this and take photos.

[mohrds]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets
Doug, I could friggin' kiss you. When I see Amber tonight, I'll get you a gold star!

One of us needs to try this and take photos.

I'll see you on saturday at the Detroit Auto Show, so we can settle up there *SMOOOOCH*

Doug

[Aredubjay]

This is gettin' ugly. :rolleyes: I think I'm gonna yak.:eek:

[Mr. Pockets]

Originally posted by Aredubjay
This is gettin' ugly. :rolleyes: I think I'm gonna yak.:eek:

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by Mr. Pockets


Yep. That's about what it looked like. Except for the horns, and the eyes, head and hooves. :p :D

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by mohrds


I'll see you on saturday at the Detroit Auto Show, so we can settle up there *SMOOOOCH*

Doug

Just don't check his weather stripping, Doug.:eek:

[vkykam]

Aw, crud.

Why couldn't this have been a few weeks earlier?

I would have been glad to be the guinea pig for this one.

RR Bearing on me SVX was installed on the 20th... :(

At least the car's quiet now. For how long? :confused:

Edit: I noticed the P/N from the Legacy to the SVX bearings are slightly different. Are the actually the same part?

VK

[ensteele]

Randy

I hardly recognized you in the picture. You must not have had your hair cut sence the 10th anniversary meet, and I love your opera hat. :D :D Just make sure you take it off before getting into your SVX. :rolleyes: :)

[mohrds]

Originally posted by vkykam

Edit: I noticed the P/N from the Legacy to the SVX bearings are slightly different. Are the actually the same part?

VK

They are quite different. That is the beauty of using the Legacy bearings. From what I understand, the SVX/Forrester/Impreza bearing is two concentric cylinders with rolling needles in between. the Legacy Bearing is two concentric cones with a caged cone of needles in between.

Supposedly when you put lateral force (cornering) on the cylinder style bearing, the inboard seal takes the pressure and fails quickly allowing contaminants to get in and destroy the bearing. The tapered bearing puts lateral pressure on the needles which are better designed to handle the force than a rubber seal is.

Instead of the two cylinders trying to slide over each other, the force is trying to push the inner cone further into the outer cone.

Doug

[Alcyone SVX LSL]

so does someone want to put these on my car to see if they work??

[ensteele]

Has there been a set of these put on a SVX? A friend of mine needs to put new bearings on his, and this might be a good time to try it if they will fit. We could take some pictures as we do it. Any feedback?

[mohrds]

Supposedly Subaru of Canada has superceded the Legacy Bearings for the SVX so if you take your SVX to a dealer in Canada, they look up the part number to a SVX bearing and it shows the part number for the Legacy as the correct part.

I cannot verify this. Victor, would you mind stopping at the parts counter next time you are at a dealer and have them look up the bearing part number? Or look at your receipt if you had yours replaced at a dealer back on the 20th. You may have the tapered bearing installed... Wouldn't that be cool?

Doug

[Alcyone SVX LSL]

I am interested, i want to know more about this, mine still need to be replaced.

[mohrds]

I have given you all the information I know as of right now. As I find out more, I will post anything I find.

Doug

[mbtoloczko]

Originally posted by mohrds
I have given you all the information I know as of right now. As I find out more, I will post anything I find.

Doug

I've read through this thread, and its not clear to me that there is a newer style bearing for the SVX. Is there one? If so, what is the part number, and where do we get it?

[mbtoloczko]

Originally posted by mohrds


Supposedly when you put lateral force (cornering) on the cylinder style bearing, the inboard seal takes the pressure and fails quickly allowing contaminants to get in and destroy the bearing. The tapered bearing puts lateral pressure on the needles which are better designed to handle the force than a rubber seal is.

Doug

Are you referring to an SVX rear wheel bearing system here?

[mohrds]

Originally posted by mbtoloczko


I've read through this thread, and its not clear to me that there is a newer style bearing for the SVX. Is there one? If so, what is the part number, and where do we get it?

It is not a newer style bearing for the SVX, it is a bearing from a different model Subaru. The Subaru part number is SCI541005 and should be able to be found under any 2003 Subaru Forrester or Impreza parts list from your local dealer.

Disclaimer: I have heard all of this information but have not confirmed any of it. Use this information at your own risk, no guarantee of compatibility or availability is expressed or implied.

Doug

[mohrds]

Originally posted by mbtoloczko


Are you referring to an SVX rear wheel bearing system here?

Yes

[mbtoloczko]

Originally posted by mohrds


It is not a newer style bearing for the SVX, it is a bearing from a different model Subaru. The Subaru part number is SCI541005 and should be able to be found under any 2003 Subaru Forrester or Impreza parts list from your local dealer.

Disclaimer: I have heard all of this information but have not confirmed any of it. Use this information at your own risk, no guarantee of compatibility or availability is expressed or implied.

Doug

ok. So a newer style bearing exists for the Forrester and Impreza, but it is unknown as to whether it can work as a substitute for an SVX rear wheel bearing.

[mbtoloczko]

Originally posted by mohrds


Yes

Hmm. I've had the rear wheel bearing assembly apart, and as far as I can tell, there is no way for the bearing to transmit any loads of any kind to the wheel bearing seals. The bearing seats against a shoulder in the knuckle on the inboard side of the knuckle, and on the outboard side, there is a large circlip preventing any lateral movement of the bearing in the knuckle. The seals are on the outside of the shoulder and on the outside of circlip, and do not contact the bearings.

[mohrds]

Originally posted by mbtoloczko


ok. So a newer style bearing exists for the Forrester and Impreza, but it is unknown as to whether it can work as a substitute for an SVX rear wheel bearing.

The pre 2003 Forrester and Impreza use the same bearing as the SVX.

Supposedly there is no change in the knuckle or hub for 2003, only the bearing so if the new bearing fits in the old knuckle and hub, it should fit in the SVX.

Doug

[Alcyone SVX LSL]

i am very interested in this, is there a price difference? also can anyone confirm this yet?

[mbtoloczko]

Originally posted by mohrds


The pre 2003 Forrester and Impreza use the same bearing as the SVX.

Supposedly there is no change in the knuckle or hub for 2003, only the bearing so if the new bearing fits in the old knuckle and hub, it should fit in the SVX.

Doug

I understand now. Thank you.

[vkykam]

Doug,

Me mechanic ordered it for me prior to the 20th. I'll drop by my mechanic and see if he still has the invoice for it and the P/N.

This is bearing #6 for me, 3 on each sides over the past 30 months. The first two on each side were prematurely worn due to improper installation (torque, grease). The 3rd one on the left has been on the car now for almost 2 years and 50k miles now, and no problems. The 3rd one on the right is the fresh one.

The first 5, I've got a good mental picture of the bearings. If Subaru Canada superceded bearing numbers, I would think it'd be a while back, so I'm pretty sure I know what the Canadian bearings look like. Unfortunately, I'm complete lost on your description of what the bearing would look like. :D

The 5 that were installed looked like a thick cylinder, with tapered edges. Against the tapered edge would sit the 2 removable pieces, which is a plastic cage with rollers in them.

Does that help?

VK
Originally posted by mohrds
Supposedly Subaru of Canada has superceded the Legacy Bearings for the SVX so if you take your SVX to a dealer in Canada, they look up the part number to a SVX bearing and it shows the part number for the Legacy as the correct part.

I cannot verify this. Victor, would you mind stopping at the parts counter next time you are at a dealer and have them look up the bearing part number? Or look at your receipt if you had yours replaced at a dealer back on the 20th. You may have the tapered bearing installed... Wouldn't that be cool?

Doug

[AbdominalSnoman]

One paycheck after finding a new job I'm going to try this. I'll see if anyone has tried it before then. If you do please post here so I'll feel more confident about buying these or know not to repeat your mistake.

[AbdominalSnoman]

one more thing, the part number 23 and 24 (inner and outer oil seal) should I get the ones that coorespond to the forrester, or the ones that coorespond to my SVX

I wonder if my parents would mind if I rip the bearings out of their 2 week old forester and sneak mine in. . .:D

[vkykam]

AbdominalSnoman

Granted that my experience with these bearings haven't been much (only 6 of them so far in 2 years :rolleyes:), I'm fairly confident that with proper installation, it'll last a while. If not installed properly (torque, grease), it'll be toast in a short while.

With overtorquing and the right grease on bearing #1, it lasted all of 3 weeks.

VK

[AbdominalSnoman]

I asked subaruparts.com for a price quote on these but they haven't responded for about 2 days. The dealership wants about $86 for them. I'll order these as soon as I get a price back from them and we'll hear if it will work soon enough.

I've had mine on for maybe 2 years and 30,000 miles? On most cars, even sports cars, you just don't plain change wheel bearings period over their entire life. I know that about 40,000 miles before I put mine in, the previous owner did the same thing. I'd like to stop this evil cycle. (evil since I can't figure out how to spell vi-shus anything but phonetically)

Please, if anyone knows what seals I need, svx or forrester, please tell me.

[mohrds]

Originally posted by AbdominalSnoman
I asked subaruparts.com for a price quote on these but they haven't responded for about 2 days. The dealership wants about $86 for them. I'll order these as soon as I get a price back from them and we'll hear if it will work soon enough.

I've had mine on for maybe 2 years and 30,000 miles? On most cars, even sports cars, you just don't plain change wheel bearings period over their entire life. I know that about 40,000 miles before I put mine in, the previous owner did the same thing. I'd like to stop this evil cycle. (evil since I can't figure out how to spell vi-shus anything but phonetically)

Please, if anyone knows what seals I need, svx or forrester, please tell me.

I hope you aren't buying pre 2003 Forrester bearings. The pre 2003 will be the same as the SVX bearings. Did you order the part number listed above (SCI541005)?

I would get the Legacy seals, logic being, if the carrier is the same opening on both cars, the seal will be either identical or designed for the bearing, not the carrier.

Vicious is the correct spelling.

Doug

[alia176]

Guys,

Hope I don't sound crazy here but these bearings that you folks are talking about sounds very costly. Why? Wheel bearings are simple tapered, needle bearings and should have a Timken p/n as a cross reference. I've been buying Timkens for less than $20 (race and cone) for years. Why are these bearings priced so high? What am I missing here?

Ali
:confused:

[alia176]

One more thing, I forgot to ask. Can someone post a pic of these bearings so that I can have a better understanding?

Thanks again.

[AbdominalSnoman]

The bearings for the forrester are not too much more expensive than the svx ones. At the dealer the svx bearings are about $80 and the Forrester ones are $86 or $87. If you get the bca united bearings online from carparts.com they cost about $70. Subaru parts lists the svx bearings as $52 or so so I'm hoping the forrester bearings are only a little bit more so I don't have to pay full price.

(still no reply from subaruparts.com, how long does it usually take?)

[mohrds]

Originally posted by alia176
Guys,

Hope I don't sound crazy here but these bearings that you folks are talking about sounds very costly. Why? Wheel bearings are simple tapered, needle bearings and should have a Timken p/n as a cross reference. I've been buying Timkens for less than $20 (race and cone) for years. Why are these bearings priced so high? What am I missing here?

Ali
:confused:

Ali,

Here is the bearing manufacturer's Part Number: 46T0807050 and the manufacturer is Koyo, Japan.

If you can find a Timken cross reference, please feel free to share it with us.

I figure bearings are like bolts, you can by them direct for next to nothing, but once the auto manufacturer has to buy them, inventory them, track them, distribute them, warehouse them, and ship them out to the dealer, that is why the price skyrockets.

Doug

[mohrds]

Originally posted by AbdominalSnoman
The bearings for the forrester are not too much more expensive than the svx ones. At the dealer the svx bearings are about $80 and the Forrester ones are $86 or $87. If you get the bca united bearings online from carparts.com they cost about $70. Subaru parts lists the svx bearings as $52 or so so I'm hoping the forrester bearings are only a little bit more so I don't have to pay full price.

(still no reply from subaruparts.com, how long does it usually take?)

Try www.1stsubaruparts.com

You didn't clarify if you are ordering 2003 Forrester? You may get a better price on a late 90's Legacy bearing instead of a 2003 Forrester.

1stSubaruparts.com has a rear bearing for a 96 Legacy 4WD priced at $53.64

Doug

[subafan]

time to sound uneducated.... but since this is wheel bearings 101, might as well ask...
um... what do wheel bearings do?

[Aredubjay]

Originally posted by subafan
time to sound uneducated.... but since this is wheel bearings 101, might as well ask...
um... what do wheel bearings do?

howstuffworks.com is a great source of information about just about everything. Give 'er a look:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/bearing.htm

[AbdominalSnoman]

Well, I ordered the 2003 forrester bearings. At subaru parts.com it was actually cheaper than the legacy bearings. it was $127.36 for 2 bearings, 2 inner oil seals, 2 outer oil seals, and 2 day shipping, and damn I forgot to get the bearing grease too. . .

I have an appointment on Wednesday the 29th to put them in. I'll make sure to let you guys know how it turns out.

[vkykam]

Oi?

I could've sworn that the bearings I put on two years ago were NTN bearings.

Canadian difference?

VK

Originally posted by mohrds Here is the bearing manufacturer's Part Number: 46T0807050 and the manufacturer is Koyo, Japan.

Doug [/B]

[lee]

Originally posted by vkykam
Oi?

I could've sworn that the bearings I put on two years ago were NTN bearings.

Canadian difference?

VK



I don't think so - Canadian difference that is. Bearing companies are merging world-wide and there's fewer and fewer left. Not sure about Koyo, but I bought SVX bearings a couple months ago and they were BCA which has the same coprorate ownership as NTN. BCA claims to be the OEM supplier for Subaru USA, don't know if that's (still) true.

[alia176]

By any chance did you catch the BCA p/n for these bearings?

Ali



Originally posted by lee

Not sure about Koyo, but I bought SVX bearings a couple months ago and they were BCA which has the same coprorate ownership as NTN. BCA claims to be the OEM supplier for Subaru USA, don't know if that's (still) true.

[mohrds]

here is the stock SVX stampings. These are the high failure bearings, not the new improved 2003 bearings.

There are 3 stampings on the bearing spaced equally apart.

JAPAN CL

NTN

4T-CRI-08A02

BTW: This roller bearing is Subaru part # 28016PA010


Hopefully, we can talk AbdominalSnoman into posting the stampings from the 2003 bearing before he has them installed.


Doug

[AbdominalSnoman]

I was impressed. I ordered these last night at around 6pm and by the time I woke up (1pm) they were already on my doorstep. This is coming from about as far away from me as you can get in the US (Tacoma Washington)

The stampings are:
JAPAN EN
NTN
TM-DE08A74

Subaru part number 28016FC001 ($43.05)
I also ordered the inner and outer seals that coorespond to these bearings:
inner seal part number: 28015AA021 ($8.15)
outer seal part number: 28015AA070 ($6.73)

all the prices are from www.subaruparts.com
I didn't find their phone number online but in an email from them they have it listed as: 877-473-6200 and they're open 9-6 pst

To find the bca part numbers you can go here: http://www.carparts.com/parts/sample.asp?reflink=0-0-0-0-0&SegmentId=1&parttypeid=12023&vehicleid=53277&catalogid=&partnum=NONE&dc= (all the different REAR wheel bearings they have are the same thing (ignore the inner outer . . .)) They also have Beck/Arnley brand ones.

If anyone wants pictures of the wheel bearings before I put them in let me know and I'll borrow someone's digital camera.

Oh, please wait to do this until after I try to put them in. Wed the 29th.

[alia176]

Originally posted by AbdominalSnoman

If anyone wants pictures of the wheel bearings before I put them in let me know and I'll borrow someone's digital camera.

Oh, please wait to do this until after I try to put them in. Wed the 29th.

If it isn't too much trouble please take some pics of the bearings so that I can understand what all the hub hub is about!

Thanks.

[mohrds]

Well AbdominalSnoman?

Don't keep us all in suspense!! What happend with the install today?? Did they fit?

Doug

[sfsvx]

Originally posted by mohrds
Well AbdominalSnoman?

Don't keep us all in suspense!! What happend with the install today?? Did they fit?

Doug

Doug, did you move across the International Date Line? It's only the 28th in most parts of the US. :) :p :D

[mohrds]

Originally posted by sfsvx


Doug, did you move across the International Date Line? It's only the 28th in most parts of the US. :) :p :D

Ooooops!!!!! Me bad.

This week is dragging on forever!!



Doug

[AbdominalSnoman]

I compared the forrester bearings that I got to real SVX bearings and they have a different outer dimension, inner dimension, and length. They definitely will not work. Hopefully Subaruparts.com will take them back as I have not taken them out of the plastic bag that they come in. I probably would have tried to see if Legacy bearings would fit, but I didn't have time since I just got SVX bearings to compare the Forrester bearings to on Monday. Sorry that I haven't had a chance to get pictures of the forrester bearings compared to SVX bearings. I have been really busy as I am cramming as much UNIX knowledge as possible that I might remotely need as an administrator before I have an interview Friday. I told the shop to keep my old ones so I could take pictures with them.