Manual transmission causes crankshaft wear!

[svxfiles]

I have very recently found out something about early crankshaft wear that is caused, believe it or not, by starting the engine with the clutch depressed.
Wheather you have a push or pull clutch, depressing the clutch while starting a cold engine causes wear on the crankshaft journal that keeps the crankshaft from walking.
I will now ONLY START THE ENGINE in neutral.
Once the engine is running there is oil pressure and minimal wear is experienced.
More on this later.
Tom

[Blacky]

Now that I think about it, I have always put my cars and bikes in neutral when starting. It's just the way I've always done it. On a 2 stroke dirt bike you can feel the extra force necessary to kick it over in gear.

[svxfiles]

I believe that the engine that I just took apart has less than 7000 miles on it since I built it using the best of everything. The walk on the crankshaft was 0.032". It should be no more that 0.0045". I installed a new bearing to recheck it and the walk was 0.020''-0.018". The wear was only on one side of crankshaft, on the side that the crankshaft gets pushed to when the clutch is depressed.
I have to replace the crankshaft, or find thicker bearings for it in terms of width, to compensate for the crankshaft wear.
Note, I would only try this on my personal engine after much more research!

[svxfiles]

As an aside I lost my phone that had every ones phone number on it.:rolleyes:
If you would like me to have your number it is the one listed on my website that ends with 2837. Thanks.:)

[bheinen74]

this is true, but almost all cars nowadays have a clutch safety switch so starter won't engage unless clutch is pushed in…..now, on my BRAT it never had that feature, but newer cars do. Would have to defeat the switch

[wdb]

I once used shim stock and a pair of scissors to add a bit of thickness to the thrust washers. Slipped them in behind the thrust washers. Worked a treat and a lot cheaper than a new crank.

[svxfiles]

The thrust bearing is in a fixed position and allows no movement in relation to the block. Shimming it would be a lot easier. sigh...

[bishop]

The question now is what can we do to prevent this other than the obvious of wiring the safety's to let the car start without the clutch depressed. Is there a different thrust bearing to use or some configuration of clutch?

[svxfiles]

The question now is what can we do to prevent this other than the obvious of wiring the safety's to let the car start without the clutch depressed. Is there a different thrust bearing to use or some configuration of clutch?
I am going to look into a few things since I now know that there IS a problem. Until the other day I/we had no idea that there was a problem.
What I have been told is the softer/weaker the pressure plate/clutch cover is the less the wear.
I am going to see if other Subaru sized crankshaft bearings are able to be installed, or if there is a way to install more thrust bearings into our blocks without spending a ton on machine work.
What do the 1200HP 2.0 guys do?!
If anyone knows already feel free to guide us.:)

[bishop]

I dont think a lighter pressure plate is the answer, some of us have power goals in mind.

[svxfiles]

I dont think a lighter pressure plate is the answer, some of us have power goals in mind.
I am/was only reporting what a reputable Subaru mechanic has opined. I have always recommended higher stage clutches.
Only one time have I installed a stock Subaru clutch behind a 3.3 and it slipped instantly. Took it out, had the stock flywheel step machined for more pressure, it slipped again. Took it out, installed a custom flywheel with a stage? clutch, and it has been fine ever since.

[Tireiron]

Do you have a push clutch or a pull clutch? Obviously they each put a different direction of force on the crankshaft and thrust bearing.

This may be the reason Subaru switched to a pull clutch on the higher power cars with stronger clutches (WRX and STi). Maybe they were worried about possible thrust bearing wear... I've never really been able to figure out why Subaru went with the odd pull style clutch.

[svxfiles]

Do you have a push clutch or a pull clutch?
The engine was mated to a six speed with a hydraulic clutch that pushed on the clutch fork, and (presumably) as a result the noticeable wear was on the front side of the thrust bearing side of the crankshaft journal.
The engine is back on a stand, so I am going from memory.
As soon as I am done with my roof, fix the lawnmower and cut the grass, perhaps do head gaskets on the new Forrester, I will have a chance to get back onto it.
I will be investigating further, and will report as soon as I can.
lots to do, Tom. :rolleyes:

[Tireiron]

Just to collect more info on this issue.

1. What type of oil and weight did you run? What oil filter? (Not that I think oil had anything to do with it)

2. Was there any noticeable crank walk? How were the bearing clearances when you assembled the engine (tight, normal, or lose)?

3. Were there any oiling issues? Pickup tube clogged or cracked? O-ring on the pickup tube damaged? Oil pump leaking or damaged internally? Pan dented in against the pickup?

4. What journal is the thrust bearing in the EG33? I know the 4 cylinders were either 3rd or 5th depending on age.

Just want to get as much info as possible. I'll add more as I think of them. Yours seems to be the first EG33 with this issue. There have been minor reports of these issues from the 4 cylinder crowd, but mostly with the phase 1 3rd position thrust bearing cranks. The rear, 5th position thrust bearing motors didn't seem to have any issues.

[svxfiles]

Just to collect more info on this issue.

1. What type of oil and weight did you run? What oil filter? (Not that I think oil had anything to do with it)

2. Was there any noticeable crank walk? How were the bearing clearances when you assembled the engine (tight, normal, or lose)?

3. Were there any oiling issues? Pickup tube clogged or cracked? O-ring on the pickup tube damaged? Oil pump leaking or damaged internally? Pan dented in against the pickup?

4. What journal is the thrust bearing in the EG33? I know the 4 cylinders were either 3rd or 5th depending on age.

Just want to get as much info as possible. I'll add more as I think of them. Yours seems to be the first EG33 with this issue. There have been minor reports of these issues from the 4 cylinder crowd, but mostly with the phase 1 3rd position thrust bearing cranks. The rear, 5th position thrust bearing motors didn't seem to have any issues.

1)The previous owner used 10/30 Mobil1 fully synthetic and a Purolator L30165.
2)Since I assembled the engine the tolerances were PERFECT!
3)Nothing was or is wrong with the oiling system!
4)I believe that the thrust washer is the fifth one back out of the seven main bearings, but until I get time to take it off of the engine stand I cannot say for sure.
This is not the first one with a worn crankshaft. A highly respected Subaru guru has seen this before on 3.3s with higher stage clutches.

[svxfiles]

Ok, so yesterday and today I was able to speak with a respected Subaru ,mechanic who works at a "big city'' Subaru garage and he has never heard of this problem. As background he runs a 500+ HP Impreza. Nuf said.
Any way although he agreed with the idea of the wear could be caused by the clutch, he had not seen it himself. He also said that the five main bearing 2.5s have only one thrust bearing. I will verify that at the local Subaru garage perhaps as soon as tomorrow.
HOWEVER when I mentioned that the engine had only used 10/30 Mobil1 oil, both he and his friend, another racer freeked out and said that Mobil1 is too thin for a Subaru engine!?!?
They both recommended Rotella 5/40.
So when the new crankshaft goes in, Rotilla goes in too.
More on this later.
T

[svxfiles]

OK, I went to the local Subaru garage and one of the mechanics had a 2014 WRX engine dissassembled. The crankshaft looked to be 52mm, the width seems to be the same size. (Did not have any measuring tools with me)
The big thing is the shoulder was about 1/8" taller per side.
Considering how the bearings are designed that should easily add 50% more bearing surface, IF IT CAN BE USED! Hopefully before the week is out I can borrow the used bearing, take the block off of the stand, dissassemble it to where I can it for fitment.
T

[svxfiles]

Went again to the local Subaru garage and was given one half of the thrust bearing to check fitment.It is wider than the stock replacement bearing, but I will crack open the block to see if it fits on another journal.
Get back to youse guys as soon as I find out.

[bishop]

I'm taking notes.

[svxfiles]

Just pulled the engine apart to see if the wrx thrust bearing will fit on any of the seven journals, NOPE!:(
Without machining the block or crankshaft for the necessary clearance I don't believe anything will fit.
This time I will assemble it with King AM bearings. I contacted them earlier today and they are supossed to get back to me.
If nothing else maybe they will make up a set of seven main bearings instead of us having to buy two sets of five for a 2.2 (1999 Impreza).
The King AM series are all aluminum/silicone and according to LAN at ECUTune, they are much preferred to the tri-metal bearings from Sealed Power and similar bearings.\
Tom

[svxfiles]

Spoke with a tech rep at King Bearings for more than 1/2 hour today.

(Just so there is no confusion the SVX 3.3 does have 60mm main journals on the crankshaft and 52mm crank pin journals, IF the crankshaft has not been machined by someone other than Subaru.)

The only way I can see to get another thrust bearing in there is to machine the crankshaft.

So for a performance rebuild he (the King Bearing tech) would recommend a pair of King CR4125XPG sets for the connecting rods and a pair of MB5250XP sets for the main bearings.
Two sets gets you ten main bearings for the required seven main bearing crankshaft and two sets of connecting rod bearings gets you eight rod bearings for the required six rod bearings.
This is his recommendation for a RACE build not just a regular rebuild.
His reasoning is that on a race engine the bearings take a harder pounding and these bearings use a stronger copper, a stronger lead and the babbitt coating is half as thick.
This lessens the chance of the babbitt coating flaking off.
This is a different opinion than that of LAN at ECUTune who recommends an aluminum/silicone bearing for the main bearings.
I have not yet had a chance to talk to Mike/LAN about this.
I have the HIGHEST respect for Mike and will call him about this.
I just got off the phone with a guy who has a 1200hp 3.3 twin turbo in his road race/hill climb Impreza about what bearings he uses.
He is OK with this bearing recommendation on a race engine.
For a race engine he thinks the King bearings should only be used if they are XP or XPG.
In the mean time I believe that I will wire in a clutch switch that does not allow the starter to be engaged when the clutch pedal is depressed, AND switching to an oil with a higher zink level than Mobil1.
Perhaps, more on this later.
Tom

[bishop]

Interesting, if im right using these in a street engine wouldnt be any worse than a race engine yes? Like we dont have to expect lower lifespan just because they are expected to be beaten on?

[svxfiles]

Interesting, if im right using these in a street engine wouldnt be any worse than a race engine yes? Like we dont have to expect lower lifespan just because they are expected to be beaten on?

The honest answer is I don't really know.

LAN really prefers the aluminum/silicone bearings.
An engine producing the stockish horse power would most likely benefit from the softer bearings.

Whatever bearings that you choose to go with, I think that the start in neutral policy is the best thing we can do.
Along with a high in zink content.

[cozykat]

Subscribed. :)

[SoobCrazy]

I'm having a hard time accepting this theory. How is the design of the main and thrust bearings different on the EG33 vs. any of FHI's other engines? Besides the motion of the clutch being released, all FHI engines see the same forces in relation to the starter, transmission resistance, etc.

Why would the engineers design an engine with significantly different architecture? It just doesn't compute. The choice to sell the car with an automatic only would not cause the engineers to design an engine that could not accept the forces of a clutch being actuated.

The basic engine design and specifications were finalized long before the car was released, and was heavily influenced by all prior FHI engine designs.

[Huskymaniac]

The honest answer is I don't really know.

LAN really prefers the aluminum/silicone bearings.
An engine producing the stockish horse power would most likely benefit from the softer bearings.

Whatever bearings that you choose to go with, I think that the start in neutral policy is the best thing we can do.
Along with a high in zink content.

Zinc is not as critical as molybdenum and no oil has as much as Red Line.

Do you ever plan on responding to my emails?

[oab_au]

The honest answer is I don't really know.

LAN really prefers the aluminum/silicone bearings.
An engine producing the stockish horse power would most likely benefit from the softer bearings.

Whatever bearings that you choose to go with, I think that the start in neutral policy is the best thing we can do.
Along with a high in zink content.

Giday Tom, I would prefer the Tri Metal bearings over the Aluminium Tin, for a road car, modified or not. The problem with the Aluminium is that the surface coating has very little embedability for the surface, so that they hold surface grit on the surface of the bearing to cause wear, and scoring of the crank pin.
The Lead coating allows the grit to embed into the lead holding the grit away from the pin so that there is very little scoring of the pin. The Copper bearings have very good heat handling qualities for the load.
Cheers Harvey.

[svxfiles]

Zinc is not as critical as molybdenum and no oil has as much as Red Line.

Do you ever plan on responding to my emails?

What e-Mails?!
kyleerocket@yahoo.com

[svxfiles]

I'm having a hard time accepting this theory. How is the design of the main and thrust bearings different on the EG33 vs. any of FHI's other engines? Besides the motion of the clutch being released, all FHI engines see the same forces in relation to the starter, transmission resistance, etc.

Why would the engineers design an engine with significantly different architecture? It just doesn't compute. The choice to sell the car with an automatic only would not cause the engineers to design an engine that could not accept the forces of a clutch being actuated.

The basic engine design and specifications were finalized long before the car was released, and was heavily influenced by all prior FHI engine designs.

Soob, I am only bringing light to a subject that until recently was the farthest thing from my mind!
We know that the 3.3 was never designed for a manual transmission.
And we are now finding out that only the higher pressure clutch/pressure plate engines show this problem.
I am trying to help here. This is real. If you disagree, thats ok,
I am still looking at ways to reduce the problem. When I (if I) find a better fix I will share it.

[SoobCrazy]

Soob, I am only bringing light to a subject that until recently was the farthest thing from my mind!

I'm not saying that you're wrong or anything (though I sure hope you are!), it just seems odd that this one engine, in the entire history of FHI, has trouble with having a clutch bolted to it.

I don't know at what point in the development FHI decided that the SVX would be a one-trans wonder, but I'd have to speculate that it was somewhere downstream of laying out the engine architecture, thus allowing the engine to be designed for any FHI transmission. <-- My reasoning, probably wrong.

[Huskymaniac]

What e-Mails?!
kyleerocket@yahoo.com

I re-sent my last email to that address. Did you not get it?

[Conn SVX]

You say Heavy clutch pressure. What clutch is causing the problem? Looking at the main bearings in this engine does not seem possible that it would distort. How many so far have had the problem and what are the symptoms?

[svxfiles]

You say Heavy clutch pressure. What clutch is causing the problem? Looking at the main bearings in this engine does not seem possible that it would distort. How many so far have had the problem and what are the symptoms?

I have only seen one engine with excessive end play, or crankshaft walk.
But when I called an Subaru Expert, he already knew that this was happening. He stated that the wear on the crankshaft journal was dependent on whether it was a push or pull clutch system.
The evidence on my (or more correctly, now mine) crankshaft and thrust bearing followed his theory and experience.
As to what clutch is causing the problem, it is not brand related as far as I know, (but "We" only use about three different brands) it is more of a the higher clamping pressure, the more damage as collateral damage.
So far the best thing to do is to start the engine in neutral!
Only start the engine after oil pressure is built
I am looking into this but there is a lot going on and will report back as soon as humanly possible.

[Conn SVX]

How do you wait for oil pressure to build with out starting the motor. Do we have electric oil pump?

[svxfiles]

How do you wait for oil pressure to build with out starting the motor. Do we have electric oil pump?

I wish!
On my only 5 speed, (The Racer) I put it in neutral with the ignition and fuel pump switches turned off, and without pushing the clutch, I spin the engine for about a minute, (best guess) to get the oil pumping, with this 140k mostly stock (temporary) engine, (until I can install the new engine with the Eagle rods and the CP pistons) and after a minute, click on the ignition and fuel pump. It starts and instantly goes up to 80 psi, until it warms up.
By the time I install the new engine I will have it figured out. I hope.:eek:

[Huskymaniac]

I wish!
On my only 5 speed, (The Racer) I put it in neutral with the ignition and fuel pump switches turned off, and without pushing the clutch, I spin the engine for about a minute, (best guess) to get the oil pumping, with this 140k mostly stock (temporary) engine, (until I can install the new engine with the Eagle rods and the CP pistons) and after a minute, click on the ignition and fuel pump. It starts and instantly goes up to 80 psi, until it warms up.
By the time I install the new engine I will have it figured out. I hope.:eek:

You have mail again.....

[svxfiles]

Hi Tony.
I just got back from a computer-less three day trip to install a water heater at my parents house in Pittsburgh.
Yes, THREE DAYS to install an instant on gas water heater replacing the thirty old one that was INCORRECTLY installed. I think by the well known Rube Goldberg!
Six.5 hours of travel time, 40 hours of waterboard-eske Home Depot shopping in two nearby cities, one run into a c8urb blowing out my 17" tire on The Claret, three days on ONE SHOWER!!!:mad::mad::mad: Four visits to tire and part stores. I'm home now. I will just sit here in the fetal position, rocking, humming to my self, maybe covering up with a blankey...
BTW Thank you Brian for the loan of your spare SVX tire, I got home fine!
Tony, now, after my rant, I'll go read the E-Mails that you sent.
PS. How do you spell "blankie?"

[SVXBart]

Liar !!!

[SVXBart]

Snort !!!

[SVXBart]

We all know that in reality it only took you 2 days.

[svxfiles]

Went up early (for me) AND left the house about 10:08 on Tuesday, and after stopping at the bank for like 40 minutes, got there at 2:30, still Tuesday, water heater crap,Home Depot, parents, Home Depot, parents, Home fkn Depot, blown lf tire, Jose & Tony's, stayed at Nick's place, Wednesday Advance the the good folks at RNR in Monroeville, then another Advance, water heater stuff, met with Brian, tire stuff, more water heater stuff, after 8:20PM(!) Jose & Tony's, Nicks place again
Thursday, drove back home in the fkn rain in The Claret, stuffed with tools, a blown tire, two big dogs, got home Thursday at 12:20 HENCE THREE DAYS!

Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, three days ya big Vodke swillin Jagoff!;)

[shotgunslade]

Haven't been here for a while, but just saw this thread. i have some information about this issue which severely affected the first engine on my 94 emerald pearl. Engine was only slightly modified, Lan chip, exhaust camshaft substituted for intake camshaft, Snorkus. It had a 2004 WRX 5-speed, with ACT clutch kit and heavy duty pressure plate. By the end of its life, maybe 20,000 miles and 25 track days, with the 5-speed, and 105,000 miles overall, it had serious thrust bearing wear. To the extent that I was routinely throwing belts, and even had the timing belt slip a tooth. Young Tom can vouch for this. He autopsied the engine, after it fried as a result of a burst coolant connector hose across the top of the block.

Of course, later, with a new block and crankshaft, he built the famous 246 WHP NA engine, along with other mods that ultimately made it car of the week on Bringatrailer and got it featured in the Drive Channel weekly chat show. With that engine, on his advice, I always started it in neutral, and, and at stop lights put it into neutral, totally minimizing the time with the clutch pedal down. My experience is that this is really a thing.

[svxfiles]

Thank you Dan.

[TomsSVX]

There are two switches on the trans. One is the reverse switch which we all use for reverse lights. The second is a neutral indicator for cruise control. It is open in neutral and closed in gear. You must use a relay wired to the 87a terminal to reverse this in order to act as a neutral safety for the starting circuit. Or just hardwire the circuit. Either way you lose cruise control.

[svxfiles]

Hi YT.:) Its been a rough week!

[huck369]

There are two switches on the trans. One is the reverse switch which we all use for reverse lights. The second is a neutral indicator for cruise control. It is open in neutral and closed in gear. You must use a relay wired to the 87a terminal to reverse this in order to act as a neutral safety for the starting circuit. Or just hardwire the circuit. Either way you lose cruise control.

I never use that switch for neutral, I wire the neutral wiring to the clutch position switch on the pedal, so that when the pedal is depressed, it thinks it is in neutral, thus cutting off the cruise control when you push in the clutch...plus you have to press the clutch to start it, just like a factory set-up should be....but the cruise control works fine this way.

[Sean486]

So to revisit this, is it safe to just start the car in neutral with the clutch depressed or is wiring it the way Huck recommends the best way?

I assume wired in the say Huck suggest you would still want to start in neutral?

[huck369]

If wired the way in my write-up, then it doesn't matter if its in gear, or neutral, as when the clutch is depressed, the transmission isn't engaged...

My Current 5-Speed has been running this way for about 13 years with no issues

[Sean486]

If wired the way in my write-up, then it doesn't matter if its in gear, or neutral, as when the clutch is depressed, the transmission isn't engaged...

My Current 5-Speed has been running this way for about 13 years with no issues

Awesome thanks.