PP6 (perfectpower6) on our cars?

[BackWoodsBob]

I searched, only found one thread. I'm curious to know, is there anyone currently running a PP6 piggyback on their ECU. If so, how is it working/how hard was it to get dialed in?

Were you able to correct for larger injectors/MAF without issue? I ask because I have looked into LAN's chip, but I'd prefer to be able to tune the system myself and have a custom tune for my exact build.

Specs.
01 legacy
EG33 (ported/polished)
3" short intake/pod filter
43PSI FPR (impreza)
2" secondary's to 2.5cat-back.

Future goals.
300ish whp
GT30
96octane self-mixed.

Thanks in advance for any info :).

[bishop]

As far as i remember its difficult to run a piggy back on our ecu's because the MAF is already near its peak flow or voltage.

I've been curious about using something like an apexi piggy back or similar to lean it out slighty for a little bit better fuel economy.

[icingdeath88]

How much does one cost compared to a megasquirt?

[BackWoodsBob]

As far as i remember its difficult to run a piggy back on our ecu's because the MAF is already near its peak flow or voltage.

I've been curious about using something like an apexi piggy back or similar to lean it out slighty for a little bit better fuel economy.


that's the point, with a larger MAF and changing the scaling you could run a HUGE MAF (assuming you had enough memory) and run larger injectors.

[BackWoodsBob]

How much does one cost compared to a megasquirt?

I've seen them go for as little as 150 used, MS 4? iirc was a PNP option but you had to build it and the kit runs 400USD+.

I'm not that knowledgable with tuning, so I'm trying to figure out what rout WILL work. With a piggyback I can just tweak little things until I break something....err get it running the way I want it to!:lol:

[icingdeath88]

I've seen them go for as little as 150 used, MS 4? iirc was a PNP option but you had to build it and the kit runs 400USD+.

I'm not that knowledgable with tuning, so I'm trying to figure out what rout WILL work. With a piggyback I can just tweak little things until I break something....err get it running the way I want it to!:lol:

The MS3X is about $600 and when all is said and done (WBO2 sensors, wiring, etc, etc) will add up to quite a bit more than that. I am getting closer and closer to having everything figured out though.

[BackWoodsBob]

The MS3X is about $600 and when all is said and done (WBO2 sensors, wiring, etc, etc) will add up to quite a bit more than that. I am getting closer and closer to having everything figured out though.



Ouch, I know there's a guy here who bought a MS4? He and I were talking about it for a while, not sure if he ever went through with making a thread on his findings.

It's the same MS I was going to buy, but a few looks at the interface and I realized I had DAYS worth of research left before I dropped the coin on that.

[icingdeath88]

Ouch, I know there's a guy here who bought a MS4? He and I were talking about it for a while, not sure if he ever went through with making a thread on his findings.

It's the same MS I was going to buy, but a few looks at the interface and I realized I had DAYS worth of research left before I dropped the coin on that.

MS4 doesn't exist, although they did just release something called an MS pro, which is basically a slightly refined MS3X plus all of the options in a weatherproof case. It's ok, just wait until I've got it all figured out and then hopefully it's just a a matter of wiring things up as I did, and loading my tune.

Some quick searching on the PP6 show that it basically fudges the MAF signal to the ECU, so the ECU injects more or less fuel accordingly. I really don't think that's the best way to go about it. It doesn't give you the complete control that a standalone does. Between that and LAN's stage 2 chip, I'd go with the chip.

[BackWoodsBob]

MS4 doesn't exist, although they did just release something called an MS pro, which is basically a slightly refined MS3X plus all of the options in a weatherproof case. It's ok, just wait until I've got it all figured out and then hopefully it's just a a matter of wiring things up as I did, and loading my tune.

Some quick searching on the PP6 show that it basically fudges the MAF signal to the ECU, so the ECU injects more or less fuel accordingly. I really don't think that's the best way to go about it. It doesn't give you the complete control that a standalone does. Between that and LAN's stage 2 chip, I'd go with the chip.

I do apologize, I haven't looked at the DIY PNP store in a LONG time.
It does 'fudge' the signal, it basically takes a signal, modifies it and feeds it to the ECU. There's nothing that can really go wrong there. Well, I say that but anything can go wrong if you look at it just the right way.

I'm still up in the air about which tuning option to go with, I'd love a DIY PNP MS system, but having no clue how to tune it hinders my effectiveness. I need to watch some instructional vids on it. . .

[Tireiron]

There's nothing like a true standalone to get everything set correctly. I'm really liking the Hydra, but I have to learn to tune better so I can get all the fueling setup correctly and it running good. Everything is dependent on the fuel, AFR, and timing tables and when the motor is as custom as mine, there is nothing to go off of as a base.

[icingdeath88]

There's nothing like a true standalone to get everything set correctly. I'm really liking the Hydra, but I have to learn to tune better so I can get all the fueling setup correctly and it running good. Everything is dependent on the fuel, AFR, and timing tables and when the motor is as custom as mine, there is nothing to go off of as a base.

Yea, the cool thing about the MS tunerstudio software is that the paid version now has an autotune feature. You tell it a target AFR and it uses the wideband to tune the VE table to get there. I am actually using the stock timing and target AFR maps pulled from the stock ECU as a base for mine, since the motor is close to stock. (The stock ECU doesn't use VE maps in it's calculations).

I wouldn't mind having a look at the maps that you have as well. You have sicksubie's s/c motor, right?

[Tireiron]

Yea I do, once I get them worked out some more I can send em over to you. But I havnt been doing any tuning due to winter and hunting down 2 more coil packs to upgrade to the new style coil pack. Once it warms up again I can start back working on it.

[BackWoodsBob]

Yea, the cool thing about the MS tunerstudio software is that the paid version now has an autotune feature. You tell it a target AFR and it uses the wideband to tune the VE table to get there. I am actually using the stock timing and target AFR maps pulled from the stock ECU as a base for mine, since the motor is close to stock. (The stock ECU doesn't use VE maps in it's calculations).

I wouldn't mind having a look at the maps that you have as well. You have sicksubie's s/c motor, right?

Holy ****, how'd you get an understandable rip of the Eprom code? The only thing I've ever been able to find online is acronym babble that means nothing to me.

Also, that auto tune feature sounds awesome, does it work with forced induction applications as well? Do you know if it also adjusts for outside temp IE winter/summer?

[icingdeath88]

Holy ****, how'd you get an understandable rip of the Eprom code? The only thing I've ever been able to find online is acronym babble that means nothing to me.

Also, that auto tune feature sounds awesome, does it work with forced induction applications as well? Do you know if it also adjusts for outside temp IE winter/summer?

http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm/ecureverse.html

Years ago, some very skilled people on the forum started to pull ROM dumps and start reverse-engineering them. So some things like the ignition tables and target AFR maps were deciphered, among other things.

The Autotune feature, I have not gotten to try yet, but it's supposed to work really well. Dynomatt, whose race car has been running on a MS2 for years, highly recommended it to me, and since then they have continued to improve the software. It should work great for FI. Most MS installs use an IAT sensor, to adjust for temperature. You can even do barometric correction, for different elevations. I haven't come across many things that these MS3X ECUs can't be made able to do, and it's mostly stuff like cruise control.

[longassname]

I would not recomend a piggy back system on an SVX most especially for forced induction.

The factory firmware in the SVX ECU has very little ignition timing in the primary ignition table and relies on an algorythm using the knock sensors to learn in additional timing up to a maximum specified in the ignition revision table. This system doesn't work as well as just specifying ignition timing for good performance in the primary ignition table even for naturally aspirated cars. It completely doesn't work on forced induction cars. The "aggressive" tunes which all the ECUtune versions are now were first developed to solve the problems with forced induction; we then found that doing the same thing with the stage 1's also gave much better results.

So if you are going to use a stock ECU use ECUtune firmware and forget the piggy back. If you want to do your own tuning you need a standalone.

[2006eg33]

I would not recomend a piggy back system on an SVX most especially for forced induction.

The factory firmware in the SVX ECU has very little ignition timing in the primary ignition table and relies on an algorythm using the knock sensors to learn in additional timing up to a maximum specified in the ignition revision table. This system doesn't work as well as just specifying ignition timing for good performance in the primary ignition table even for naturally aspirated cars. It completely doesn't work on forced induction cars. The "aggressive" tunes which all the ECUtune versions are now were first developed to solve the problems with forced induction; we then found that doing the same thing with the stage 1's also gave much better results.

So if you are going to use a stock ECU use ECUtune firmware and forget the piggy back. If you want to do your own tuning you need a standalone.

question for LAN.

is your stage 2 tune, just a 1 tune fits all? so if 1 car has cams, and another has a turbo. they both get the same tune?

if you had a program where i could adjust the tune then burn my own chip, i would happily pay for that.

[longassname]

Yes it is a one tune fits all...but for the most part one tune really does fit all so long as the fuel injectors are able to meet the fuel demand and the mass air meter is able to measure the air ingested without being a restriction.

It's a concept which escapes a lot of people but it's true none the less. Mass air systems handle changes in engine hardware very well without the need to be retuned. The ECU is looking up the afr and ignition timing out of tables 16 columns x 16 rows with each column equaling a mass of air in the cylinder and each row equaling an rpm. When you change camshafts or add a turbo etc you are making modifications to fit a higher mass of air in each cylinder the ECU correctly measures this change and the result is it reads the afr and timing from cells in higher columns thus looking up the correct afr and ignition timing.

There are also a couple current versions of stage 3 firmware by the way. The main stage 3 firmwares use the 2006 STI yellow top injectors with two SVX air flow meters run in parallel. This removes the mass air meter as a bottle neck and is especially convenient for parallel twin turbo setups.

I do also from time to time make customized versions if you are nice. Since the advent of the aggressive tunes I don't think there is much if anything to be had by going stand alone over an ECUtune chip. None the less I think it's good for guys like icing who are inclined to do so to get it figured out so the option is there.



question for LAN.

is your stage 2 tune, just a 1 tune fits all? so if 1 car has cams, and another has a turbo. they both get the same tune?

if you had a program where i could adjust the tune then burn my own chip, i would happily pay for that.

[2006eg33]

Yes it is a one tune fits all...but for the most part one tune really does fit all so long as the fuel injectors are able to meet the fuel demand and the mass air meter is able to measure the air ingested without being a restriction.

It's a concept which escapes a lot of people but it's true none the less. Mass air systems handle changes in engine hardware very well without the need to be retuned. The ECU is looking up the afr and ignition timing out of tables 16 columns x 16 rows with each column equaling a mass of air in the cylinder and each row equaling an rpm. When you change camshafts or add a turbo etc you are making modifications to fit a higher mass of air in each cylinder the ECU correctly measures this change and the result is it reads the afr and timing from cells in higher columns thus looking up the correct afr and ignition timing.

There are also a couple current versions of stage 3 firmware by the way. The main stage 3 firmwares use the 2006 STI yellow top injectors with two SVX air flow meters run in parallel. This removes the mass air meter as a bottle neck and is especially convenient for parallel twin turbo setups.

I do also from time to time make customized versions if you are nice. Since the advent of the aggressive tunes I don't think there is much if anything to be had by going stand alone over an ECUtune chip. None the less I think it's good for guys like icing who are inclined to do so to get it figured out so the option is there.

how will the computer know if you later on decide to switch from 370cc injectors to larger ones for more boost. or a larger mass air flow. it would seem to me the calibration for the MAF, and the injectors will be in the coding on the chip. so when the car is in open loop, and not reading the o2 sensors, and running off of predetermined tables, the fueling tables will end up out of whack and either overly rich, or overly lean.

i do plan on trying your stage 1 aggressive chip though. since my engine is stock. anything more - i think having adjustability is key.

[longassname]

You can't change injectors or mass air meters later on. You have to use the injectors and mass air meter or meters the firmware is written for.

I'm not really trying to sell my "chips" I'm just providing the requested information.



how will the computer know if you later on decide to switch from 370cc injectors to larger ones for more boost. or a larger mass air flow. it would seem to me the calibration for the MAF, and the injectors will be in the coding on the chip. so when the car is in open loop, and not reading the o2 sensors, and running off of predetermined tables, the fueling tables will end up out of whack and either overly rich, or overly lean.

i do plan on trying your stage 1 aggressive chip though. since my engine is stock. anything more - i think having adjustability is key.

[2006eg33]

You can't change injectors or mass air meters later on. You have to use the injectors and mass air meter or meters the firmware is written for.

I'm not really trying to sell my "chips" I'm just providing the requested information.

i know, i was just trying to say there is a point when more adjustability will be needed, possibly with a MAP based system. at which point a standalone is the option, or possibly piggy back systems


if only there was a way to use the dirt cheap and readily available ford mafs. the 90mm lightning can handle alot more air then the z32 maf. they go for roughly 180 brand new.

[dragoontwo]

i know, i was just trying to say there is a point when more adjustability will be needed, possibly with a MAP based system. at which point a standalone is the option, or possibly piggy back systems


if only there was a way to use the dirt cheap and readily available ford mafs. the 90mm lightning can handle alot more air then the z32 maf. they go for roughly 180 brand new.

I picked up a z32 MAF used(works perfect) for $50 local. I even had a connector for it(quick release) already in my box.

[BackWoodsBob]

http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm/ecureverse.html

Years ago, some very skilled people on the forum started to pull ROM dumps and start reverse-engineering them. So some things like the ignition tables and target AFR maps were deciphered, among other things.

The Autotune feature, I have not gotten to try yet, but it's supposed to work really well. Dynomatt, whose race car has been running on a MS2 for years, highly recommended it to me, and since then they have continued to improve the software. It should work great for FI. Most MS installs use an IAT sensor, to adjust for temperature. You can even do barometric correction, for different elevations. I haven't come across many things that these MS3X ECUs can't be made able to do, and it's mostly stuff like cruise control.

I'll certainly keep this in mind, thank you!

[BackWoodsBob]

still not sure why a piggyback wouldn't be advisable when everything, spark, fuel trims, maf, and their adjustments can be tweaked little by little.

LAN, are you saying a pp6 couldn't work for ignition timing adjustments due to how the jecs ecu handles the advancement?

I really don't want to get stuck with 370 injectors.....

[icingdeath88]

Nissan Q45 MAF reportedly reads more air than any other stock MAF. The Z32 MAF reads something like 450 or 500 hp worth of air.

LAN can make a chip that uses 550cc injectors instead of 370s. That's what the stage 3 one uses. So he could do a stage 2/3 hybrid if you wanted to use a Z32 MAF and 550s.

[BackWoodsBob]

Already talked to him about customizing a rom, not exactly looking to add hundreds to the price of a chip, if I can get a piggy back working.

[2006eg33]

i see no reason why a piggy back wouldn't work on the eg33. someone just has to man up and try it.

[BackWoodsBob]

Well, if you are who I think you are you know Ivonko, he still has his PP6 he got for around 100 bones. I have an interview this week, so I might try and weasel him out of his lol.

[2006eg33]

im ez30rs over on rs25.

[BackWoodsBob]

thought so.

[BRZCory]

i see no reason why a piggy back wouldn't work on the eg33. someone just has to man up and try it.
Would it work? of course. They're just electronic signals, they can be fudged.

The problem comes in when the stock ECU starts to see the changed readings. It'll start to see the MAF doing strange things, and adjust accordingly. This will change the signal that the PP6 is reading, and it will adjust accordingly. That adjustment will change the MAF signal again, and you'll get into this loop where the ECU is trying to adjust to get back to factory readings on the MAF and o2, while the piggyback is fighting it trying to get to what you want it to do. All the time they're fighting over the ignition tables as well.

So, when you "set" the value in the PP6 you don't really get that value, and it constantly changes due to the ECU modifying it's signals to try and get back to zero.

This is the same problem that happens when you run a piggyback on pretty much any modern subaru. Constant fighting between the stock ECU and the piggyback.

And the whole concept of a piggyback is a half-assed bandaid fix because tuners are too newbish to tune a standalone to the level of the factory ECU. So they use a piggyback instead to modify certain signals, but leave others in tact (idle, cruising, etc).

[2006eg33]

too newbish to tune a standalone to factory ecu settings? i didn't know standalones had obd2 capability. so those who need emissions testing have no other option then a piggyback, unless your blessed with a flashable ecu.

also the main reason people have piggy back issues is because of crank synch errors.

those who get their subarus to work with the AEM FIC have great results.

[BackWoodsBob]

No it wont cory, with the AEM FIC you can control the o2 sensors as well as the maf.

Besides, the obd1 ecu is retarded compared to the newer ecus. it won't change **** :lol:

[icingdeath88]

Besides, the obd1 ecu is retarded compared to the newer ecus. it won't change **** :lol:

Untrue. The ECU does quite a lot actually. Creates VE tables on the fly using feedback from the O2 sensors and target AFR tables, retards and advances ignition timing. It won't "see the MAF doing strange things" as such, but it will try to respond to changes in AFR. If you're fudging the O2 sensor readings too, then I think you'll be ok.

[Tireiron]

too newbish to tune a standalone to factory ecu settings? i didn't know standalones had obd2 capability. so those who need emissions testing have no other option then a piggyback, unless your blessed with a flashable ecu.



The Hydra with the CAN box can be setup to run OBD2 fully. Element Tuning is just finishing the programming for a Hydra on the BRZ with full CAN support to run as a standalone and replace the OEM ECU. Next they are going to do the 08+ STi to run the CAN box and completely eliminate the OEM ECU.

It all just depends on your tuning and programming ability, but the hardware is out there to do it correctly.