The beginnings of a Megasquirt how-to guide

[icingdeath88]

Some preliminary discussion happened here in this thread (which is informative in general as well): http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?p=713451#post713451

This thread goes over my project/goals, etc and has a little discussion of the megasquirt: http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58090&page=4

Where my project stands right now, I need to make the engine that's currently in the car run on the megasquirt, without necessitating any down-time of the car, since I need it for work/school etc, since my brother is using my other car (the black 97) for the next couple months while he's saving up to buy a truck. Then, after I get that car back, and have moved to the new house, which has a garage, the engine swap and real fun stuff will begin, and the blue/6-speed car will be taken out of daily-driver duty.

I ordered a Megasquirt 3 Extra, a Break-out board, a GM IAT sensor, and some other little odds and ends from DIYautotune.com. Ordered 6 LS2 truck coils from ebay, and got some new connectors for the cam and crank sensors from here (http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/), since they were especially old and brittle. If you try hard enough, you should be able to find new OEM connectors online for most of what I connected directly to the megasquirt.

Anyway, here's a run-down of what I've figured out/done so far. I got a spare engine and body harness, and went through and followed the wires back from the sensors/etc to the ECU so I could be sure how everything's connected. Then, some of the wiring to the sensors at the engine, I separated, to connect directly to the Megasquirt, while some things I connected to the break-out board, which plugs in where the stock ECU does. Here's the ECU pinout, and the megasquirt pinouts underneath them:

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2356&d=1058575037

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2357&d=1058575638

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16829&stc=1&d=1352679293

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16830&stc=1&d=1352679327

(from here: http://msextra.com/doc/ms3/hardware.html#wiring)

Here are the wires that I connected to the break-out board (here (http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/diybob-breakout-adapter-nippondenso-76-pin-p-411.html)):


ECU pinout location...........MS3/MS3X # (color)......................break-out board #.......................function

B62 - 23.........................MS37 (purple)................................4T........ ......................fuel pump relay

B59 - 2...........................relay................. ..........................1C...................... ........+12V to power everything

B61 - 16.........................MSX26 (green/orange stripe)............3P............................. .Tacho

B59 - 21.........................MS7 (black/grey)............................1T............... ...............ground for CTS

B59 - 17.........................MS7 (black/grey)............................1L............... ...............ground for O2 (split from CTS ground)

B59 - 3 .........................MS21 (yellow) ................................1E................ ............. CTS signal

B59 - 6 .........................MS23 (pink) ....................................1K............ ................. O2 signal 1

B59 - 5.........................MSX22 (blue/darkblu)..........................1I.............. ................O2 signal 2

Ok, those are the wires I connected to the break-out board. The rest I wired directly to the megasquirt, to the intake manifold ground (at the back, pass. side of the intake manifold, just above the FPR basically), or to fused +12V supply. The +12V supply I used 2 of the small 4-fuse fuse blocks that's sold at DIYautotune, and each fuse box was connected to a relay, that's activated by the +12V ecu supply in the table above. This provides power to the Megasquirt, the IACV, the injectors, and the coils. The injectors and the coils are each split by bank among 2 fuses (5 amp each for the injectors, 10 amp each for the coils).

For timing the ignition, I am using the 12 tooth crank wheel, which is crank sensor #1 (the one tilted, to the (US) passenger side), and the cam wheel. The cam wheel is read as a single tooth wheel, and the crank angle sensor is 12 teeth, with no teeth missing = should be perfect for sequential COPs on the megasquirt. This is an important factor in whether or not I'd be able to switch back and forth to the stock ECU, because if I had to grind a tooth off the 12-tooth wheel, to do wasted spark, I wouldn't be able to change ECUs without changing out the crank sprocket, which would be hugely impractical.

The pinout for each plug is given below:
*Looking at the connector (not the sensor/device), with the clip side up, and the wires going away from you. Pins are from left to right.*

Device......Position from left to right.....MS wire (color)...Function
TPS..........1.................................... MS26 (grey).......+5V reference from MS
TPS..........2.................................... MS22 ................signal
TPS..........3.................................... ground ...............ground

IACV.........1.................................... MS30 (FIDLE)......IAC close
IACV.........2.................................... +12V.................+12V to drive IACV
IACV.........3.................................... MSX9 (Idle)........IAC open

Crank sensor*.1...............................MS24 (white)......Crank signal
Crank sensor..2...............................MS1 (black)........ground

Cam sensor....1................................MSX32 (dk green)......Cam signal
Cam sensor....2................................Any black ground on the MS main harness...Cam ground

Injectors....1...................................M SX INJ A-F (white/color).....Injector signal (grounded at MS)
Injectors....2...................................+ 12V at fuse box...................Injector power

IRIS**......1...................................MS X27 (VVT).........Signal (grounded at MS)
IRIS.........2...................................+ 12V at fuse box (shared with IACV).....power for IRIS solenoid

*The crank sensor should be connected using twisted/shielded wire, to prevent electrical noise. These are given in the DIYAutotune harnesses as such.

**The IRIS I actually haven't hooked up yet, I will need to test and make sure whether this will work in software or not. The VVT pin is a medium-current PWM ground signal, but there is a setting somewhere to change it to on/off instead of PWM, just need to play around with it.

The 2-wire CTS and IAT sensors, can be connected either way going to signal/ground, what's measured is the resistance.

All of the MS ground wires were connected to the intake manifold ground, except one (random) that was split off to provide the Cam sensor ground.

I am going to be using LS2 truck COPs, rather than the stock igniter module and coils. The wiring for the LS2 coils I found here and will follow that: http://msextra.com/doc/ms3/ignition.html#ignout

Spark plug wires I haven't quite figured out yet. I got some make-your-own plug wires at advance auto parts and I didn't notice, but the end that connects to the coil should be different from the end that connects to a distributor, which is what I got. So gotta return those and get some that will work.

If you are going to try using the stock igniter, you're on your own. Matt burned one or two igniters, and then added separate igniters, and in my testing I also burned out an igniter too. I don't know yet what needs to be done exactly, but figure it out.

The MAP sensor vac line is T-ed into the FPR line (easiest line to replace if it were to break.

I haven't removed any of the "definitely not going to be used" wires from the MS loom yet. I will wait until it's running before I start trying to clean up the wiring, which is a huge mess right now. There are wires taped up against things all over the engine bay. I gutted the glove box, and removed the AC evap core, to run my wires through the hole in the firewall that's then exposed. I don't really recommend doing the same, since it kind of FUBARs the whole ventilation system in the car (need to fix the airflow somehow to regain heater core function).

So far I have wired up all the sensors, and the break-out board, but neither the coils or the injectors yet (just no time). The sensors I could test without the car running I tested - the crank and cam sensors synced, I calibrated the TPS.

Tunerstudio has a calibration curve built-in for the GM IAT sensor. The CTS, uses a Bosch NTC calibration curve. I will attach a file with the calibration curve later, it's on the laptop at home. In fact, if you wanted, you could use a spare EG33 2-wire CTS as an IAT sensor, just input that calibration curve instead. Once calibrated, the IAT and CTS readings in tunerstudio were reasonable.

So far, I am using only a base map (.msq file) that someone uploaded to the MSextra forums a while back, that I think is also the one 2006eg33 started with. It can be found here: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=131&t=44607 I will upload the one I modified to match my wiring and the sensors/coils I am using later (slight, but important differences). Don't even attempt to use that one with my wiring. I'm hopeful that that map is close enough to work for me. If not I'll try doing what this guy was apparently able to do (http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=40305)and convert one of the maps extracted from a stock ECU to the format that the MS uses, and just run it with that.

*More info to come after I have the injectors and coils wired up and finally try starting it up.*

[icingdeath88]

Reserved for updates

Update - added NTC calibration curve pdf for calibrating coolant temp sensor.
Added .zipped msq file for what the settings I have so far are.

[92 SVX]

very nice will be watching this space.

[icingdeath88]

If not I'll try doing what this guy was apparently able to do (http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=104&t=40305)and convert one of the maps extracted from a stock ECU to the format that the MS uses, and just run it with that.

I think this guy got the hex maps from UK Phil's site: http://www.alcyone.org.uk/ssm/ecureverse.html

Maybe Phil or one of the others can help me make sense of that.

Also figured out that "O2 sensor 1" in the ECU pinout should be the right (passenger) side sensor, of bank 1, which is cylinders 1, 3, 5. And O2 sensor 2 is for bank 2.

The fire order is 1-6-3-2-5-4. The MS wiring will therefore be:

Inj/coil...cylinder#
A..........1
B..........6
C..........3
D..........2
E..........5
F..........4

I don't see a way to set up both the stock narrow-band O2 sensors and a wide band, but you can set up two wide-bands. I don't have a wide-band yet, I really need to order one but funds are short ATM, and I'd rather use a pair of wide-bands than a single one. For now I'll probably give it a shot with the narrow-bands.

[icingdeath88]

Well, here's some surprising good news. A buddy from the lab just happens to have an autometer wideband that he's not using. And I checked that it will work with the megasquirt, and it should. So if he'll sell it to me then I should have that going sooner rather than later. :)

And I just realized that this thread is sorely lacking in pictures, so I'll get on that right away. :P

[Stevebsy]

Are you tapping into the svx harness for the MS?

I swear I saw a place online somewhere that had the svx ecm connectors, I dont think it was a ms site but another aftermarket ecu. That would make things awfully nice....

Anyway...get those pics up!

[icingdeath88]

Technically, you can use the break-out board, which plugs into the body harness in place of the stock ECU, to do everything. So far, I haven't had to alter the body harness at all. However, to facilitate my own understanding and keeping track of all of the wiring, I am only using the break-out board for a few things, and keeping most of it on a separate harness, just for the megasquirt.

What 2006eg33 told me via email that he did was use a spare body harness to get the 4 body-side plugs that plug into the 4 engine harness connectors to do everything. That is a pretty clean way of keeping things plug-and-play, because you can leave the body harness of the car alone. He's got it in a legacy or impreza though.

Honestly, I am kind of shy to take pics of my car because the car itself is in kind of rough shape, and the engine bay is a mess right now because of all the wires all over the place. I have them literally taped up all over the place to keep them put while I'm driving. This would really be a lot easier if I could make the car undriveable for a while until it's finished.

[icingdeath88]

Good news, got it to start on the MS last night. Ran as ****tily as I can imagine, but I was pretty much expecting that. Had a ton of sync loss = not a clean enough reading from the crank/cam sensors. Most of the EJ and EG MS builds I've seen have required one or two resistors either inline or across the signal and ground wires in order to get a clean enough signal for the MS. So I need to figure out the best way to go about fixing that. Still, good progress, and I'm excited that it ran at all. :)

[TomsSVX]

Just making sure you noted the FSM's incorrect pin location for the ignition coils... Gave me a hell of a ride when setting up the Hydra. I logged the notes in the original hydra thread of which wires need to go where

Tom

[icingdeath88]

Just making sure you noted the FSM's incorrect pin location for the ignition coils... Gave me a hell of a ride when setting up the Hydra. I logged the notes in the original hydra thread of which wires need to go where

Oh, that explains the burned ignitor the first time I wired up the MS directly to the break-out-board. Right now, the coils are wired directly to the MS, so that's actually not an issue for me, but it will be a huge deal for anyone trying to get it working plug-and-play.

Found the post: http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showpost.php?p=575797&postcount=64

I did take note of a couple typos in the Factory Service manuals though for anyone who may need them in the future. The pins for the coils are wrong which is what was giving me such a hard time. And since the igniter doesn't just pass the current, I couldn't trace them with a simple test of continuity. So I had to do it the hard way on at a time.:rolleyes:

Coil-ECU connector-Pin
1-b62- 10
2-b62- 8
3-b62- 9
4-b62- 7
5-b62- 21
6-b62- 16

As always, thanks a ton for the very valuable input, Tom. :)

[icingdeath88]

I think I've sorted out the cam and crank sensors. Someone on the megasquirt forums suggested I use this board: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=46150
instead of the megasquirt's VR conditioners. I don't quite know enough to explain what it does, but basically it acts like a noise filter and is also able to deal with a wider range of input voltage, and several people have had success with this board and the black subaru sensors, like on the EG33. So I got one and wired it up and gave it a shot and it seems to be working a lot more nicely now. Synced up right away on cranking and it didn't lose sync up to ~2500 rpms. I didn't try it any higher than that because I didn't want to rev it all the way without warming it up first. I discovered that cylinders 2 and 3 aren't firing, so that's the next thing I need to figure out. I also added a knock module, hopefully it will play nice with our stock knock sensors.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gfgUqHT1r7M/UODUPJksJDI/AAAAAAAAE2I/OKK5IlELTVg/s1000/IMAG0401.jpg

[icingdeath88]

Been looking over the wiring of the OBD2-1 adapter I bought from Tom, and I think I found another error in the FSM OBD1 ECU pinout. Pin B60 11 is assigned as both the MAF voltage and the VSS2 input to the ECU. And it can't be. After comparing it to the wiring diagrams I believe it's actually the VSS2 input. This isn't really relevant to my megasquirt project (at least right now), but I wanted to post it somewhere so someone can find it if they need to later.

[BackWoodsBob]

SUBSCRIBED!

Would have sub'd earlier but didn't know you had made a thread until you posted on rs25!

Thanks by the way :), looks like I have some reading to catch up on!

[icingdeath88]

Yea, I have made some decent progress finally in the last couple of days, I'll post an update soon. :)

[2006eg33]

glad to see full documentation of this.

you could effectively end the enginemanagement woes with this engine.

you'd be a hero.

[BackWoodsBob]

Would seriously be my hero at least!

[icingdeath88]

Thanks, guys I really appreciate the moral support.

glad to see full documentation of this.

you could effectively end the enginemanagement woes with this engine.

you'd be a hero.

When you had the MS hooked up to the EG33, did you have any sync issues? I could not get it to sync with the MS3 VR sensor circuitry, no matter how much I turned the pots. Had to switch to the Dual VR board I posted about before. That is only a $35 expense, but one I'd rather be able to eliminate for anyone else trying to do this. Also, the difficulty level of the soldering is just a little more than most people would want to attempt I think, especially with a ~$600 ECU at risk.

[BRZCory]

Would seriously be my hero at least!
Also subbed, because Bob will eventually need electrical help, and he'll text me for it, so I need to be ready.

If anyone's having problems with the stock ignition coils, and doesn't realize that the stock ignitor is just a transistor array that switches the ground of the individual coils, this sentence might help you.

[icingdeath88]

Also subbed, because Bob will eventually need electrical help, and he'll text me for it, so I need to be ready.

If anyone's having problems with the stock ignition coils, and doesn't realize that the stock ignitor is just a transistor array that switches the ground of the individual coils, this sentence might help you.

Yep, knowing how stuff works really helps a lot.

People have had problems with the stock ignitors due to not realizing the very short dwell times that need to be used with them, and how to figure out what dwell times should be used. I burned mine because the dwell time I had it set to at first was 6ms (tunerstudio default). Even the LS2 coils only need 4.5ms, and I believe I came across someone using a dwell of 2.3ms with the stock ignitor/coils without problems. Now that I know that, once I have everything running well on the LS2 coils, I plan to switch back to the stock ignition hardware and figure out settings that work for them, so others will be able to use them and not have to spring for the LS2 coils.

[Tireiron]

I'm swapping to the newer COP (coil on plug) coils from subaru that the 205, 255, and 257 use. All you need to do is wire in the connector for each coil pack, run a ground wire for each coil pack, and bypass the stock ignitor. The subaru new style COP can run up to 5ms dwell time (the gray ones). Also because of the design with a longer boot and a coil that does not extend into the cylinder head it eliminates the cracking issues the OEM SVX COP have.

[icingdeath88]

I'm swapping to the newer COP (coil on plug) coils from subaru that the 205, 255, and 257 use. All you need to do is wire in the connector for each coil pack, run a ground wire for each coil pack, and bypass the stock ignitor. The subaru new style COP can run up to 5ms dwell time (the gray ones). Also because of the design with a longer boot and a coil that does not extend into the cylinder head it eliminates the cracking issues the OEM SVX COP have.

Do they fit well on the EG33? Got any pics? Or part numbers? That sounds like a great idea.

[icingdeath88]

So, an update on my progress:

My brother bought a 2013 GTI, so I have the 6-speed car hooked up to the MS so I can do testing/tuning whenever I have a little down-time, and I'm using my 97 to get around for the time being.

Nobody buy the cheap Ebay LS2 coils! Myself, and at least several others on the MSextra forums, have had terrible luck getting DOA coils. I bought a set of 6, and 3 of the 6 were bad out of the box.

So I bought a set of 8 used OEM GM ones instead. Plugged them in and tested them one by one, all good. (Should have done that with the first set). Tunerstudio has a way to test them, just plug them into a spark plug, whose body is grounded against the intake manifold or wherever you can see whether it's sparking from the inside of the car. This set of coils also came with brackets to hold the coils, which I might be able to modify to fit somehow. Or at least use as a template or something.

The syncing issues seem to be resolved - the dual VR board seems to have done the trick. Once it's running a bit better, I need to check whether it needs shunt resistors due to higher voltage of the signal at higher RPMs, but I'm not very comfortable revving it very high just yet.

I also bought a timing light to confirm the base timing. I need to redo it, since I disabled all the timing settings, but I forgot to disable idle advance, but even if the idle advance was on full, it was still off from the .msq someone posted on the msextra forums that I borrowed to start with by 11* retarded. So next time I have a chance to play with it, I'll confirm the base timing 100%, and post the .msq for reference.

The knock module for the megasquirt I installed might be usable with the stock knock sensors, but I'd like to make 100% sure, since those kind of need to be super reliable. So I think what I'll do is get the 3-wire Bosch p/n 0-261-231-008 wideband knock sensors the guys who developed the knock module used, and use that, then once I know it's working with those, I'll try it with the stockers. They're only $~50 each, and readily available. They are 3-wire (ground/shield/signal), which means that they ground at the MS, which is apparently important. The stockers are only 2-wire (signal/shield) and ground through the engine block. Also, I occasionally get a knock sensor code, so I'd rather use fresh knock sensors anyway, esp on the built engine.

I also am really regretting not wiring up the IRIS solenoid when I was making the break-out-board, since I'll need to open it up to do that.

So, basically, I just need to buy a wideband O2 (or a pair ;)) and the bosch knock sensors, and wire them up and I should be ready to start the actual tuning part. :) I have just bought a trans for the '97 since the front diff is blown, and the trans has been on its last leg for a while, so car project funds are a little short right now. I might not be so patient, and just order the knock sensors and try and start tuning it with the stock narrowband O2 sensors, since they are wired up, and now that it's actually firing on all 6 cylinders they have been giving reasonable values.

I also seem to have found closed-loop IACV settings that work well, though I can't take complete credit, as the settings in the .msq I used as a base were a very good start.

Good news for those with OBD2 SVXes that want to use a megasquirt as well :). I bought an OBDII body harness to OBDI ECU adapter from TomsSVX a while back. Using that, and FSM wiring diagrams/pinouts, I made an excel sheet documenting the wiring of the adapter , and making a pinout of the OBD2 ECU, cross-referenced to the OBD1 pinout as well. I also think I have the differences between the OBD1 and 2 TCUs documented in it as well. It needs just a bit more cleaning up and some verification before I'm ready to post it, but I will soon.

So, now that Tom pointed out the errors in the FSM OBD1 ecu pinout (the coil numbers were all mismatched), and I found a couple of others, it should be pretty straightforward to make a DIY BOB for the MS3X for the EG33, for the 92-95 SVXes. The OBD2 ones should also be doable if the proper ECU plug can be found. None of the DIYBOB ones are a match for it. But I think there are other Subarus from around the same time with a similar plug, so maybe the plug can be cannibalized from one of those. There are not very many OBD2 SVX ECUs around, so it's probably best not to cannibalize one of those for its plug, unless it's a dead ECU. I'll post a pic of what the plug looks like so others can keep an eye out for something similar as well.

Unfortunately, although the MS3 can communicate over the CAN protocol, it doesn't have full OBD2 support, so in states with inspections, you would still have to figure out a way around that. But with a DIYBOB, it might be possible to just plug the stock OBD2 ECU back in just to pass the inspection, if you set everything up with that in mind, and the car is still automatic (the OBD2 m/t swap CEL remains a problem).

I think the MS should also work fine with a stock automatic and TCU. If there is a lot of interest I might try it out with my '97. I plan on using the adapter I bought from Tom to make the '97 run on a 92 ECU and TCU, so I can use the ECUtune TCU and ECU software. The trans I got for the '97 is a 4.11, so I'd prefer to use the ECUtune TCU for that reason, in addition to the other benefits (higher redline and shift points, etc). So I could make a full BOB for the MS3 instead of the half-BOB/half-separate harness I am using in the '94, and plug the MS into the '97 to give it a try. Then probably sell the BOB. But that is not going to happen for quite some time.

I took some pics of the mess of wiring that is the engine bay, but they're on my home computer, so I'll post those later as well.

Also need to buy a car adapter for my laptop so my laptop won't keep dying on me when I've got it plugged into the car...

[92 SVX]

Power inverter 400w plugs into power point on car has 2 a.c.outlets and a usb.
Pick up at Wal-Mart 50 or so

[icingdeath88]

Power inverter 400w plugs into power point on car has 2 a.c.outlets and a usb.
Pick up at Wal-Mart 50 or so

Too late, just ordered one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002UI2Y8Q/

Although I should get an inverter one of these days just because they do come in handy.

[TomsSVX]

not trying to step on the progress I know how hard at work you are with this project. I know how projects like this can be a lot of fun and help you learn more than you ever bargained for. But I have to play the devils advocate here. Knowing what you know now and know full well all the time you had to put into this. Is all that time spent working on getting it running right worth it past putting down the extra cash up front for a plug and play alternative like the Hydra? No offense but to me, spending the extra $800 and saving months of frustration and having more time to drive and tune your car is worth the extra money.

Tom

[icingdeath88]

not trying to step on the progress I know how hard at work you are with this project. I know how projects like this can be a lot of fun and help you learn more than you ever bargained for. But I have to play the devils advocate here. Knowing what you know now and know full well all the time you had to put into this. Is all that time spent working on getting it running right worth it past putting down the extra cash up front for a plug and play alternative like the Hydra? No offense but to me, spending the extra $800 and saving months of frustration and having more time to drive and tune your car is worth the extra money.

Tom

Fair enough. For me, the learning, the fun of putting it together, and the problem solving aspect of it is half of the point. Saving the money is just a bonus for me. I have the time to spend working on it now, since I can't do very much actual mechanical stuff right now due to my current living arrangement. But I can build a wiring harness in my living room watching TV if I want. And at the end, I'll have a much better understanding of everything that's going on than someone who just plugged it in and fired it up. Also, "months of frustration" is far from the truth. I haven't spent that much time on it, I just don't have that much free time, what with grad school and everything else going on.

And when I'm done, all the hard work is done, and for the next guy to come along and try to do the same thing, it's just a matter of wiring it up. The actual assembly won't be significantly more difficult than merging harnesses, since it'll all be documented. Also, I'm trying to figure out ways to reduce the overall cost of everything, again, more for the next guy than for me. Right now, the total expense is probably not as far off from a Hydra as the initial cost of the ECU itself would indicate. I'll make a list to breakdown my cost so far, but it's closer to $1k than to $600.

I'm not entirely sure what all the Hydra can do, but I would be surprised if the Hydra could do more than the MS3X, especially since the MS community has a wealth of mods that can be built to make some really crazy setups possible. Did anyone mention yet that tunerstudio has an AFR-based autotune feature? I quickly looked through the specs on the Hydra website and I didn't really see anything that it has that the Megasquirt doesn't have that would benefit the EG33. The tiers are confusing also - how much would the one that works with the EG33 cost?

Also, nobody in Tampa AFAIK can tune a Hydra. Closest one IIRC is on the other side of Orlando.

[BackWoodsBob]

Good info, really gotta sit down and re-read it all!

The DIY PNP kits seem like the best bang per buck as far as standalone control goes, I mean, as long as you don't mind taking your time you save 800$+.

[icingdeath88]

Good info, really gotta sit down and re-read it all!

The DIY PNP kits seem like the best bang per buck as far as standalone control goes, I mean, as long as you don't mind taking your time you save 800$+.

Yea, those are a lot cheaper, but those use the MS2/Extra boards. You would have to go wasted-spark, and batch-fire with the injectors, unless you add another module for sequential injection. And a few other things aren't available as they are on the MS3/X, but not any that seem essential. Gotta make sure it can drive a 3-wire PWM IACV.

There will probably be some differences in wiring compared to mine, and some things will need to be figured out from scratch, as they are different from the MS3/X - knock control, etc. But it should work, and they are even cheaper. But you have to be able to build it.

[TomsSVX]

Fair enough. For me, the learning, the fun of putting it together, and the problem solving aspect of it is half of the point. Saving the money is just a bonus for me. I have the time to spend working on it now, since I can't do very much actual mechanical stuff right now due to my current living arrangement. But I can build a wiring harness in my living room watching TV if I want. And at the end, I'll have a much better understanding of everything that's going on than someone who just plugged it in and fired it up. Also, "months of frustration" is far from the truth. I haven't spent that much time on it, I just don't have that much free time, what with grad school and everything else going on.

And when I'm done, all the hard work is done, and for the next guy to come along and try to do the same thing, it's just a matter of wiring it up. The actual assembly won't be significantly more difficult than merging harnesses, since it'll all be documented. Also, I'm trying to figure out ways to reduce the overall cost of everything, again, more for the next guy than for me. Right now, the total expense is probably not as far off from a Hydra as the initial cost of the ECU itself would indicate. I'll make a list to breakdown my cost so far, but it's closer to $1k than to $600.

I'm not entirely sure what all the Hydra can do, but I would be surprised if the Hydra could do more than the MS3X, especially since the MS community has a wealth of mods that can be built to make some really crazy setups possible. Did anyone mention yet that tunerstudio has an AFR-based autotune feature? I quickly looked through the specs on the Hydra website and I didn't really see anything that it has that the Megasquirt doesn't have that would benefit the EG33. The tiers are confusing also - how much would the one that works with the EG33 cost?

Also, nobody in Tampa AFAIK can tune a Hydra. Closest one IIRC is on the other side of Orlando.


As long as the hydra has been set up to right it has an auto tune selection. But most people have found it easier to just tuned by ms. There is a lot about the hydra that most people don't know. Quite frankly if the MS3 could do all the things you can do with the hydra I would be blown away. I mean you can tune maps for antilag, individual cylinder fuel trim if your injectors are not perfect or if you intake and/or exhaust lengths are not equal. There is traction control, launch mode, valet mode.... The list goes on. Unfortunately since I am not really representing the hydra here anymore and Jonnybeas is an idiot so... If there were any real questions i guess I would be the one to ask.

Tom

[icingdeath88]

As long as the hydra has been set up to right it has an auto tune selection. But most people have found it easier to just tuned by ms. There is a lot about the hydra that most people don't know. Quite frankly if the MS3 could do all the things you can do with the hydra I would be blown away. I mean you can tune maps for antilag, individual cylinder fuel trim if your injectors are not perfect or if you intake and/or exhaust lengths are not equal. There is traction control, launch mode, valet mode.... The list goes on. Unfortunately since I am not really representing the hydra here anymore and Jonnybeas is an idiot so... If there were any real questions i guess I would be the one to ask.

The megasquirt can do individual cylinder fuel and spark trim, launch control, and I'm sure you could make another switch-activated map and call it valet mode. Traction control has been done by at least a few people. And I'm pretty sure it has anti-lag, but I haven't looked too closely at the boost-related stuff yet. Johnybeas being the only one who I know to get a Hydra from is another reason I didn't go that route. Although I'm sure I could have gotten one from another source if I really wanted to.

Actually, another advantage to the MS in my eyes is the community-support aspect of it. The guys who write the code and design the boards actually watch the support forums themselves, and sometimes will, for example, write a custom firmware for someone whose engine setup is a little out there.

[Tireiron]

Come to find out since I've been talking to them and dealing with my Hydra, Phil of Element Tuning on Nasioc can get the SVX Hydra also, and they do huge business with Hydra and Subaru. Phil has been answering a lot of my questions about setting up different functions on the Hydra. They have just finished getting the Hydra setup with the CAN bus to work as a fully functioning stand alone on the BRZ and they are finishing up getting the CAN functions setup for the 08+ STi. I'm contemplating, if I get the car running well enough, making the trip down to Element to have Phil fine tune the car and get it dead on for me.

I think both the Hydra and the MS3 are equally good options for us in the SVX and the choice depends on if you are able and willing to assemble the MS3.

[icingdeath88]

CAN support is the biggest difference between the two. The MS CAN support is kind of limited, although I'm not sure what it's limited to. I know it's not going to be able to do OBD-2 stuff anytime in the near future. It seems like it's mostly used as another data input, for example for an external EGT array box, for someone running EGT sensors on individual cylinders, or speed input from a GPS, etc. But it might have untapped potential as well.

Tireiron, you're getting it: more options is a good thing. Each option will have it's trade-offs, but the more options the better.

Tom, I really am interested in your input, since you have so much more experience than I do. Care to download tunerstudio, and my tune file and see what you think of the whole system?

[TomsSVX]

The megasquirt can do individual cylinder fuel and spark trim, launch control, and I'm sure you could make another switch-activated map and call it valet mode. Traction control has been done by at least a few people. And I'm pretty sure it has anti-lag, but I haven't looked too closely at the boost-related stuff yet. Johnybeas being the only one who I know to get a Hydra from is another reason I didn't go that route. Although I'm sure I could have gotten one from another source if I really wanted to.

Actually, another advantage to the MS in my eyes is the community-support aspect of it. The guys who write the code and design the boards actually watch the support forums themselves, and sometimes will, for example, write a custom firmware for someone whose engine setup is a little out there.

Thats pretty cool. While i was still a distributor i was able to reach out to tge writer for the hydra to solve some initial issues but someone on their own needs to rely on a good distributor for answers. Anywho i like your project keep at it

Tom

[icingdeath88]

Ok guys, I haven't been able to get much of anything done since my last post. My 97 has been having some serious transmission issues, and the alternator also just died, so I am relying on my 94 as a daily driver for the time being.

Attached is the OBD1-2 ECU adapter excel sheet (zipped) I worked out. Keep in mind that it's a work-in-progress and I have not been able to test it out yet. I found a few errors in the OBD1 ECU pinout, other than just what Tom had found previously. And there are a few things I just can't be sure about until I test it out.

[BackWoodsBob]

I lovers you!

[icingdeath88]

I lovers you!

Glad someone's pleased with me. :)

[TomsSVX]

CAN support is the biggest difference between the two. The MS CAN support is kind of limited, although I'm not sure what it's limited to. I know it's not going to be able to do OBD-2 stuff anytime in the near future. It seems like it's mostly used as another data input, for example for an external EGT array box, for someone running EGT sensors on individual cylinders, or speed input from a GPS, etc. But it might have untapped potential as well.

Tireiron, you're getting it: more options is a good thing. Each option will have it's trade-offs, but the more options the better.

Tom, I really am interested in your input, since you have so much more experience than I do. Care to download tunerstudio, and my tune file and see what you think of the whole system?

Just saw this... pm me links to what you would like me to see ill take a peek

Tom

[icingdeath88]

Tunerstudio is here: http://tunerstudio.com/index.php/tuner-studio

And I posted a tune file a long time back: http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showpost.php?p=715468&postcount=2

But I'll post a newer one later, when I get home to where my laptop is.

LMK if you have any trouble, and thanks for checking it out. :)

[TomsSVX]

Maybe its that I have been away from this stuff too long or that I need to see it live on a vehicle... Either way this is a format that is totally alien to me.

I also feel that adjustments on the 3d tables are very limited and broad strokes rather than fine tuning... But I am used to a much larger table than whats in here. Have you downloaded the Hydra software and taken a look at the system op? I think you might like it a little more once you are used to it... Then again the same can be said for me with tunerstudio. Either way I am looking at this and trying to fit exactly whats here and I am struggling to see it

Sorry I cannot help anymore...:o

Tom

[TomsSVX]

here.. quick screen shots of the two comparing the 3d fuel map tables

Tom

[Tireiron]

They refined the Hydra visuals a lot for 2.7, here's a screenshot from 2.7

[TomsSVX]

looks cool.. Curious about the file title... Is that from my old car?

Tom

[Tireiron]

HAHA yea, it was the only one I had on my desktop which I was on at the time of posting. All of my tunes are on my laptop right now (which reminds me I need to back these up onto my desktop). JohnnyB sent it to me when I bought the Hydra 2.7 as something to check over, and Bobby (sicksubie) sent me 3 of the initial ones he could find from you, for his motor. Soon I will hopefully be taking the car down to Element Tuning to have Phil do a solid tune on it and getting running better than stock. I've worked with as many of the tunes I could find and at least have the car movable around the driveway to get it place to place heh.

Phil at Element is THE name in Hydra and Subaru. He is just finishing up getting the Hydra 2.7 with CAN bus setup as a full stand alone on the BRZ completely replacing the OEM ECU and still allowing for CAN support, which means inspection stickers are possible in states that require to be plugged in (most states). Thankfully in MA anything over 15 years old no longer has to be connected or has emissions, so I am all set with the Hydra in my 96 and not having the OBD2 port working anymore.

[TomsSVX]

HAHA yea, it was the only one I had on my desktop which I was on at the time of posting. All of my tunes are on my laptop right now (which reminds me I need to back these up onto my desktop). JohnnyB sent it to me when I bought the Hydra 2.7 as something to check over, and Bobby (sicksubie) sent me 3 of the initial ones he could find from you, for his motor. Soon I will hopefully be taking the car down to Element Tuning to have Phil do a solid tune on it and getting running better than stock. I've worked with as many of the tunes I could find and at least have the car movable around the driveway to get it place to place heh.

Phil at Element is THE name in Hydra and Subaru. He is just finishing up getting the Hydra 2.7 with CAN bus setup as a full stand alone on the BRZ completely replacing the OEM ECU and still allowing for CAN support, which means inspection stickers are possible in states that require to be plugged in (most states). Thankfully in MA anything over 15 years old no longer has to be connected or has emissions, so I am all set with the Hydra in my 96 and not having the OBD2 port working anymore.


I am well aware of Phil's experience and he was working with me on some of the aspects of the initial SVX setups I was trying when I was still doing it. Great guy, very willing to share a lot of his advice and the #1 recommendation from me when someone in his area is looking for their tune. I am still waiting for SVXRide to get his ass down to him and get his car tuned properly.

Tom

[BackWoodsBob]

so op. will the plug and play board work with a stock unmodified harness or is using that board a must? still contemplating standalone vs aem fic8....

[icingdeath88]

so op. will the plug and play board work with a stock unmodified harness or is using that board a must? still contemplating standalone vs aem fic8....

The DIY Break out board is the best way for an SVX, but since you've already been through the wiring once, you might be better off just splicing it into the harness. I'm not sure without seeing your setup.

[BackWoodsBob]

As I'll be rebuilding my spare engine here soon, I wont have a spare vehicle to 'test' my setup on so it has to be removable. So I'd rather be able to plug/unplug the ecu quickly once I'm done testing a tune. Which is kinda why I'm leaning towards a piggyback, cheaper and I can set the modification tables to 0

[icingdeath88]

As I'll be rebuilding my spare engine here soon, I wont have a spare vehicle to 'test' my setup on so it has to be removable. So I'd rather be able to plug/unplug the ecu quickly once I'm done testing a tune. Which is kinda why I'm leaning towards a piggyback, cheaper and I can set the modification tables to 0

Then if you go the ms route, I think you should build a breakout board. I'm going to start making a new breakout board for myself in like a week, so I'll post an excel of the pinout soon.

[BackWoodsBob]

Ah I see, so the breakout board makes it truly pnp?

[icingdeath88]

Ah I see, so the breakout board makes it truly pnp?

Very nearly, there are a couple things that will need separate wiring added, like the IAT sensor, wideband O2s, etc. But everything the stock ECU connects to would be pnp.

[BackWoodsBob]

Thanks for the info on that!

[BackWoodsBob]

Waiting till I get the rest of my parts car money and I'll be ordering a MS2 with a break-out board!

[icingdeath88]

Waiting till I get the rest of my parts car money and I'll be ordering a MS2 with a break-out board!

MS2 or MS3?

[BackWoodsBob]

ms2 with the adapter board. most likely anyway.

[BRZCory]

We demand more updates!

:angrymob: :)

[BackWoodsBob]

You demand? BUY YOUR OWN ><><><><><><>

[BRZCory]

Quick question, I've found a couple other people doing EG33+Megasquirt, did you attempt to just use resistors at all to clean up the signal, before you used the VR board?

So I've learned how to finally get her to rev up to 8k. Seems like my cam signal had alot of noise in the line. So I had to place a 2.2k resistor from + to - then a 18k resistor in the + side of the line. this cleaned up my signal and 8k red line was achieved.

[icingdeath88]

Quick question, I've found a couple other people doing EG33+Megasquirt, did you attempt to just use resistors at all to clean up the signal, before you used the VR board?

Yea I tried a few resistor combinations, those that reportedly worked for those with EG33s, as well as for EJs (2.0, 2.2, 2.5l), and none worked for me, but the VR board took care of it right away. What works for MS2s, and for the other various toothed wheel configurations of the EJs, is not guaranteed to work for the MS3 + EG33. The way the VR board works makes a lot more sense than the simple resistor/hysteresis tweaking that you're stuck with without it. I don't have the electrical background necessary to explain it; Harvey tried to before, and what I got out of it was that it ought to be overkill. The jbperf VR board is very similar to the circuitry used in the MS3pro, and the MS3pro is designed to have as much compatibility as possible with as many different VR sensors as possible. That said, I didn't try anything above 5k rpms.

As for updates, I don't have anything for you right now. The projects have progressed in a weird way so I'm kind of stuck without being able to work on the ECU stuff right now. However, I have already pretty much already documented everything needed for someone to get started with their own. Are there any more specific questions, like what BackWoodsBob has been asking?

[BackWoodsBob]

Quick question, I've found a couple other people doing EG33+Megasquirt, did you attempt to just use resistors at all to clean up the signal, before you used the VR board?

When did you get an ms?:mad:

[BRZCory]

When did you get an ms?:mad:
About an hour and a half ago.

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/IMAG0149_zps609dcf39.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0149_zps609dcf39.jpg.html)

And thanks for your help, I'm sure I'll have more questions! Though mine is but a lowly MS2 and not the 3/3x. I imagine the VR2 board probably has some op amps and so on to first receive the lower-level "dirty" signal, filter it through an amp, and then output a nice clean waveform.

I have a few days of playing around with the megastim and getting used to the software before I actually head to the car. And I'm probably going to either cannabalize the spare ECU that I have, or buy a breakout board for swappability (Either option requires a bit of time though). I also need to get an IAT sensor still.

...and then, upgrades (bigger injectors, and, well, M90)...

Thanks!

[BackWoodsBob]

About an hour and a half ago.




:mad:

asdf

[icingdeath88]

What are you going to do for coils/igniter?

[BackWoodsBob]

hi? and I have talked about it and there is a guy on rs25 who's familiar with ms and the eg33. he seems to think keeping ignition dwell under 5ms will prevent a burnout from happening

[BRZCory]

hi? and I have talked about it and there is a guy on rs25 who's familiar with ms and the eg33. he seems to think keeping ignition dwell under 5ms will prevent a burnout from happening
This. Although I'm still trying to figure out how to get MS2 to output 6 coil signals. I don't want to use the wasted spark because I'm not sure that the stock ignitor can handle that much current without some sort of ground upgrade. There are lots of options out there though if I can't get it working.

Also, as I hear, the signal should be set to Inverted(High), correct? At less than 5ms, and around 2.3ms for dwell (or is it duration?)

Worst-case scenario: EDIS6

[BackWoodsBob]

iirc only ms3 can run sequential spark for a 6banger. the ms2 can't. unless Im remembering incorrectly.

[dragoontwo]

This. Although I'm still trying to figure out how to get MS2 to output 6 coil signals. I don't want to use the wasted spark because I'm not sure that the stock ignitor can handle that much current without some sort of ground upgrade. There are lots of options out there though if I can't get it working.

Also, as I hear, the signal should be set to Inverted(High), correct? At less than 5ms, and around 2.3ms for dwell (or is it duration?)

Worst-case scenario: EDIS6

You should be able to batch fire our coils directly from the MS2 and not need to use the ignitor.

[BRZCory]

You should be able to batch fire our coils directly from the MS2 and not need to use the ignitor.
Hmm... I'll look into this.

Also, I see you're in Clarksville. Do you know an idiot by the name of Ben who's got an RX7 now (also running megasquirt). He's been through a couple scoobies (STi that rolled, Leggy, Fozzie, a few bikes :lol: )

[icingdeath88]

You should be able to batch fire our coils directly from the MS2 and not need to use the ignitor.

No, you'll need an ignitor of some kind. You can put them in the case with the MS2, but you do need them. The stock EG33 coils are dumb coils, that do need igniters. I think there may be newer subies that you can use the coils from, that are smart coils, and will fit right where the stock coils go, though. Maybe STI/WRX, but I'm not sure what engines/years. But LS coils are cheap and smart, and can make as strong a spark as you'll ever possibly need.

[dragoontwo]

No, you'll need an ignitor of some kind. You can put them in the case with the MS2, but you do need them. The stock EG33 coils are dumb coils, that do need igniters. I think there may be newer subies that you can use the coils from, that are smart coils, and will fit right where the stock coils go, though. Maybe STI/WRX, but I'm not sure what engines/years. But LS coils are cheap and smart, and can make as strong a spark as you'll ever possibly need.

I believe you are wrong. The MS2 can control coil dwell times, which should make the dumb coils easy to wire in. I'll verify on the site later, but I'm pretty sure you can do this.

[dragoontwo]

Hmm... I'll look into this.

Also, I see you're in Clarksville. Do you know an idiot by the name of Ben who's got an RX7 now (also running megasquirt). He's been through a couple scoobies (STi that rolled, Leggy, Fozzie, a few bikes :lol: )

I sure don't.

[dragoontwo]

Using the MS2 Extra code you can control multiple coils directly for wasted spark.

[BRZCory]

Using the MS2 Extra code you can control multiple coils directly for wasted spark.
But from an electronics side, there aren't any transistors inside the megasquirt case that can handle the current from the coils (at least none devoted to that cause, there are the tip transistors, but they're for other electronics).

The issue isn't a control signal issue, it's an energy capacity one. Try to pass the full grounding force of the coil's inductor through the megasquirt main control chip is a recipe for bad mojo.

Hence the use of transistors (ignitor) especially oustide of the control box (because they flow a lot of energy, they create heat).

What you *can* do, if you have control of multiple coils, is just use the stock ignitor, because that's exaclty what it was designed for: Taking a logic-level input, and using it to control a power-level transistor (or darlington pair).

[dragoontwo]

Take a look at the MS2 extra manual. You add the required components when you do it. Using a BIP373, it becomes possible. It looks like they changed it up a bit since I built mine. I could have swore they used 1 VB921 per ouput instead of 2 BIP373.

[BackWoodsBob]

Take a look at the MS2 extra manual. You add the required components when you do it. Using a BIP373, it becomes possible. It looks like they changed it up a bit since I built mine. I could have swore they used 1 VB921 per ouput instead of 2 BIP373.

Cory purchased a used MS2 that was pre-assembled so he may not have the option to add this in.

[icingdeath88]

Cory's right. The MS spark outputs are logic-level, not powerful enough to actually fire the coil.

You can add ignitor modules to the board, and then fire the coils from those. Dynomatt did just that with his (wasted spark).

[dragoontwo]

It can be done easily. Why limit yourself by using the stock ignitor that will only work with a handful of coils, instead of using the MS2 to drive ANY coil you would want to swap onto it.

Obviously my first post was aimed at the stock ignitor, and not any ignitor. I simply stated that the MS2 can do it, and it can.

[BackWoodsBob]

Found an MS2 system for 300 shipped on ebay.
Looking more and more likely that's what I'll go with...

[BRZCory]

Found an MS2 system for 300 shipped on ebay.
Looking more and more likely that's what I'll go with...
Just be wary, and make sure you get a jimstim or megasim or whatnot so that you can bench test it upon arrival. I imagine that there are a lot of kids out there who decided they wanted one, tried putting it together, and didn't realize that capacitors/diodes/etc have polarity, or didn't think that resistor codes were important/etc.

Hell, I tested mine in the parking lot when I got mine.

[icingdeath88]

It can be done easily. Why limit yourself by using the stock ignitor that will only work with a handful of coils, instead of using the MS2 to drive ANY coil you would want to swap onto it.

Obviously my first post was aimed at the stock ignitor, and not any ignitor. I simply stated that the MS2 can do it, and it can.

No, your first post said that you can use the MS2 to drive the stock coils without an ignitor, and you can't, at least not out of the box. You need to either use the stock ignitor, add ignitors inside the MS2 case, use smart coils, or some other ignitor, but there definitely needs to be one.

[BackWoodsBob]

It's direct from diypnp, in kit form.

[icingdeath88]

It's direct from diypnp, in kit form.

Make sure the DIYPNP kit comes with the nippon denso 76 pin adapter: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/diypnp-nippon-denso-76pin-unassembled-kit-p-384.html

[BRZCory]

You should be able to batch fire our coils directly from the MS2 and not need to use the ignitor.
How do you go from "and not need to use the ignitor" to "My first post was aimed at the stock ignitor"?

The megasquirt will not handle "any" coil (or most, if not all coils). It will however handle "any" ignitor. The stock ignitor included.

[BackWoodsBob]

Make sure the DIYPNP kit comes with the nippon denso 76 pin adapter: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/diypnp-nippon-denso-76pin-unassembled-kit-p-384.html

it is :). The only thing I'd need to buy is the 60$ diybob board. So it would be the same price for the AEM FIC6, or for a complete standalone. The major difference is the fic6 would be easier to tune. haha.

[icingdeath88]

it is :). The only thing I'd need to buy is the 60$ diybob board. So it would be the same price for the AEM FIC6, or for a complete standalone. The major difference is the fic6 would be easier to tune. haha.

No, I think the DIY PNP boards are meant to plug straight into the stock ECU plugs. Like the BOB and ECU combined in the same case. But you should double check that.

[BackWoodsBob]

Ah, I thought earlier in your thread we discussed this and you said I'd need a diybob to make it truly plug and play?

Now I'm :confused: I really need to call diy and ask'em exactly what I need to make it pnp.

[icingdeath88]

Ah, I thought earlier in your thread we discussed this and you said I'd need a diybob to make it truly plug and play?

Now I'm :confused: I really need to call diy and ask'em exactly what I need to make it pnp.

Take a closer look at the DIYPNP kits. I thought they were the MS2 ECU + DIYBOB sold as a package, but it looks like they're combined in one case.

[BackWoodsBob]

Yer correct.

'OEM ECU Connector to plug right into the factory harness!'

[dragoontwo]

How do you go from "and not need to use the ignitor" to "My first post was aimed at the stock ignitor"?

This. Although I'm still trying to figure out how to get MS2 to output 6 coil signals. I don't want to use the wasted spark because I'm not sure that the stock ignitor can handle that much current without some sort of ground upgrade. There are lots of options out there though if I can't get it working.

Also, as I hear, the signal should be set to Inverted(High), correct? At less than 5ms, and around 2.3ms for dwell (or is it duration?)

Worst-case scenario: EDIS6
The megasquirt will not handle "any" coil (or most, if not all coils). It will however handle "any" ignitor. The stock ignitor included.

You should be able to batch fire our coils directly from the MS2 and not need to use the ignitor.

Since you guys are more interested in bashing me instead of taking anything I say into consideration here you go. My reply did mean the stock ignitor, and I did not say without any ignitor. I even went so far as to point out where it is. I guess you guys know everything and "you got this".

[BackWoodsBob]

hey wow there charley, no bashing going on.

[dragoontwo]

hey wow there charley, no bashing going on.

To paraphrase:

Hey guys i wanna do this thing.

-Hey, you can do this.

Nuh uh.

-Yeah, let me look for it.
-Oh, here it is.

That's not exactly what you said!

-You can do it.

You didn't exactly say that thing I said.

-Screw you guys, I'm going home.

[icingdeath88]

Since you guys are more interested in bashing me instead of taking anything I say into consideration here you go. My reply did mean the stock ignitor, and I did not say without any ignitor. I even went so far as to point out where it is. I guess you guys know everything and "you got this".

Not trying to bash. Only ever trying to make sure the info in this thread is clear and correct. If the above was what you meant, it sure didn't seem like it:

You should be able to batch fire our coils directly from the MS2 and not need to use the ignitor.

This statement is confusing at best, and needed clearing up.

[BackWoodsBob]

dont' let the door hit yuh on the way out bra.

[dragoontwo]

dont' let the door hit yuh on the way out bra.

Door? I ain't leaving. I'm going to sit in the corner and watch certain people drive away anyone trying to help. It's entertaining and has happened a few times already.

[BackWoodsBob]

haha, fair enough.

[BRZCory]

Just for some more info, here's how the stock ECU handles ignition, in pictoral form:

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/Ignition_Wiring_zps308fe4fe.gif (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/Ignition_Wiring_zps308fe4fe.gif.html)

Now I'm going to go look through my spare stock ECU for signs of a transistor array, and if I find one, it's going to get real easy real quick. I'm only *slightly* concerned that the logic-level megasquirt outputs might be stressed driving the stock ignitor directly after seeing that picture. Using the stock setup *may* also change the signal from "going high (inverted)" to something else, but I'm doing more research.

The reason for this, is that it shows a setup whereby most of the circuits are usually on (the energy can't flow through the "closed" internal transistors, and so instead flows through the open "ignitor" transistors to ground, turning them "on" and allowing the coils to charge), and when it triggers the gates of the transistors inside the ecu, the power can now flow through them to ground, which cuts the signal to the "ignitor" transistors. They stop flowing, the energy field in the coil collapses, and BANG, you get a spark.

I should make a gif of that. But I'm too lazy/involved in other research right now.

And Dragon, you're more than welcome to help, and I encourage debate and thinking out of the box, but please try and be precise. When you say something doesn't need an ignitor, to a group of people trying to get an ignitor to work, you're gonna rustle some jimmies!

[icingdeath88]

And Dragon, you're more than welcome to help, and I encourage debate and thinking out of the box, but please try and be precise.

Yea, this got kinda out of hand, I, for one, apologize if I seemed hostile or antagonistic, I know none of us want anything other than to get everything figured out.

[BRZCory]

More interesting things: as far as I can tell, the spark signals go to a daughterboard (the green one between the ecu connector and the heatsink). Unfortunately, I've come to realize that it's a 4-layer PCB, so it's entirely possible that they go elsewhere.

There are at least 3 transistor arrays, two of which are located on the heatsink. I am also sure that the fuel injectors are controlled by one of these, so I'd take a guess that the ignitors are controlled by the other one (as they're the only other high-current driven thing in the engine that would use an array with a heatsink). I'll verify with my multimeter when I get a chance.

and if you wanted to go super-reliable, OEM style, the vast majority of the stock ECU pins (all but 5 of them) are connected with a capacitor to ground (which helps clean up the signals).

But I'll stop talking about stock now. This isn't teh ECU hacking thread, it's the megasquirt thread, and I've got the wrong box in my hands ;)

[BackWoodsBob]

Just for some more info, here's how the stock ECU handles ignition, in pictoral form:

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/Ignition_Wiring_zps308fe4fe.gif (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/Ignition_Wiring_zps308fe4fe.gif.html)

Now I'm going to go look through my spare stock ECU for signs of a transistor array, and if I find one, it's going to get real easy real quick. I'm only *slightly* concerned that the logic-level megasquirt outputs might be stressed driving the stock ignitor directly after seeing that picture. Using the stock setup *may* also change the signal from "going high (inverted)" to something else, but I'm doing more research.

The reason for this, is that it shows a setup whereby most of the circuits are usually on (the energy can't flow through the "closed" internal transistors, and so instead flows through the open "ignitor" transistors to ground, turning them "on" and allowing the coils to charge), and when it triggers the gates of the transistors inside the ecu, the power can now flow through them to ground, which cuts the signal to the "ignitor" transistors. They stop flowing, the energy field in the coil collapses, and BANG, you get a spark.

I should make a gif of that. But I'm too lazy/involved in other research right now.

And Dragon, you're more than welcome to help, and I encourage debate and thinking out of the box, but please try and be precise. When you say something doesn't need an ignitor, to a group of people trying to get an ignitor to work, you're gonna rustle some jimmies!


All this crazy **** you just said makes me even more weary of getting the MS2. FIC6 FTMFW :lol:

[BRZCory]

As for some possibly helpful links:


12-1 tooth (stock svx) ignition setup: MS2-Extra Dual Wheel Manual (http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Dual.htm)

6 cylinder COP spark setup: (with a missing tooth 12-1,1 setup, but should be similar for non-missing tooth) http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=41252

I know you MS3/3x guys already have 6-cylinder support out of the box, us MS2 guys need to do a firmware update (just to the latest) and then rewire a little bit. I'm still iffy on how to get the signal out of the box itself, might need an additional D-sub connector, or maybe there are enough wires on the MS harness that we can scavenge some unused pins. Either way, I doubt that my relay board will be able to handle it, so I may be DIYing a new relay board (now that I have a cheap source for custom PCB's).

Also, am I correct in assuming the stock IACV is a PWM control? It doesn't seem to have enough wires for a stepper style.

And what are people using for IAT's? I'll probably use the GM one mounted directly in the center of the intake manifold (or at least in the plenum) because that's where my supercharger will be blowing into, and I'll want a post-boost temperature (as it'll likely be in the mid-upper 100's). To start with though (pre-supercharging) I'll probably just plumb it into the plastic elbow somewhere.

[BackWoodsBob]

The MS2 won't support 12-1 ignition systems?

[BRZCory]

The MS2 won't support 12-1 ignition systems?
It does, I just haven't found a writeup that uses both the 12-1 AND a 6-cylinder COP setup. The 2nd link is mostly just re-inforcing that it *can* handle 6 spark outputs with the newest firmware, but that there is a little tweaking required.

[BackWoodsBob]

Ah, I see. So you're not going to use wasted spark? You're trying to get sequential everything?

[BRZCory]

Ah, I see. So you're not going to use wasted spark? You're trying to get sequential everything?
I'm trying to use the stock setup, yes.

[BackWoodsBob]

I'm trying to use the stock setup, yes.

From my reading, you needed MS2's expansion board to fire sequential injectors...

[BRZCory]

From my reading, you needed MS2's expansion board to fire sequential injectors...
I have no idea what you're talking about.

Unless you're talking about a GIPO board, but I haven't gotten that far in my research. The Megasquirt "2" IS the expansion board that plugs into the CPU slot. You're still going to need a bunch of transistors (I assume) to go from logic-level to power-level, but that's easy.

It *would* be really helpful if someone has access to an oscilliscope, to see exactly what sort of voltage/power is going to the stock ignitor. That way we could figure out exactly how much juice we need to flow to get this all to work.

And we'd be able to see how long the stock signals cut power to the ignitor (dwell time)

[BackWoodsBob]

The MS2 can't support sequential injection. you'll need this too.
http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/diypnp-upgrade-sequential-injection-kit-p-386.html

[icingdeath88]

As for some possibly helpful links:


12-1 tooth (stock svx) ignition setup: MS2-Extra Dual Wheel Manual (http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Dual.htm)

6 cylinder COP spark setup: (with a missing tooth 12-1,1 setup, but should be similar for non-missing tooth) http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=41252

I know you MS3/3x guys already have 6-cylinder support out of the box, us MS2 guys need to do a firmware update (just to the latest) and then rewire a little bit. I'm still iffy on how to get the signal out of the box itself, might need an additional D-sub connector, or maybe there are enough wires on the MS harness that we can scavenge some unused pins. Either way, I doubt that my relay board will be able to handle it, so I may be DIYing a new relay board (now that I have a cheap source for custom PCB's).

Also, am I correct in assuming the stock IACV is a PWM control? It doesn't seem to have enough wires for a stepper style.

And what are people using for IAT's? I'll probably use the GM one mounted directly in the center of the intake manifold (or at least in the plenum) because that's where my supercharger will be blowing into, and I'll want a post-boost temperature (as it'll likely be in the mid-upper 100's). To start with though (pre-supercharging) I'll probably just plumb it into the plastic elbow somewhere.

The MS2/Extra can handle 2 crank/cam inputs. (It is the MS2/extra you guys are looking at, right, not just the MS2?) I bet you will still need/want the dual vr board. With the cam input, you won't need to grind a tooth off the 12-tooth crank wheel, and it will be able to do COP.

There will be plenty of spare wires on the 76 pin plug if you want to get creative, and use the stock wiring for things it wasn't meant for - for example, you could mount the IAT sensor near where the MAF was, and use one of the MAF wires for the IAT signal. Or you can drill another hole out of the case and add your own plug, to keep the stock wiring untouched, and the stock ECU and MS easily swappable.

The IACV is a 3-wire PWM. I'm not sure whether the MS2 can handle a 3-wire PWM, but it can handle a 2-wire one. I remember reading that there was a way to make a 3-wire one work as if it was a 2-wire one.

I used the GM IAT sensor. Cheap enough. A Suby CTS can be made to work, if you have a spare, but because it's a closed sensor design, it won't respond to air temp changes as fast as the open sensor GM one. Also, the plenum gets pretty hot, you might encounter IAT heat soak issues if you mount it there. Maybe try to insulate it?

[BackWoodsBob]

The IACV only needs a constant +12v source, so it acts as a 2 wire. I'd imagine that if you can switch which wire is ground via rpm/engine temp you can make our 'three' wire iacv work just dandy.

[icingdeath88]

The IACV only needs a constant +12v source, so it acts as a 2 wire. I'd imagine that if you can switch which wire is ground via rpm/engine temp you can make our 'three' wire iacv work just dandy.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, but here's how it works (sorry if y'all already know this):

A 2-wire IACV has a +12V, and another wire which is grounded at the ECU, to close or open the valve. And it also has a spring, which does the opposite. So the ECU and spring push/pull back and forth against each other to change the amount of air going through the valve.

A 3-wire IACV has a +12V, and 2 wires grounded the ECU, that push/pull against one another to change the position of the valve.

So you will need to do something with both wires in order to have control over the valve. I think what should be done is what's suggested here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Hardware.htm#Fidle (Scroll to "3 Wired Bosch Valves")

[BackWoodsBob]

ah got yuh. you'd need to make a universal io port act as the second control wire.

[oab_au]

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Unless you're talking about a GIPO board, but I haven't gotten that far in my research. The Megasquirt "2" IS the expansion board that plugs into the CPU slot. You're still going to need a bunch of transistors (I assume) to go from logic-level to power-level, but that's easy.

It *would* be really helpful if someone has access to an oscilliscope, to see exactly what sort of voltage/power is going to the stock ignitor. That way we could figure out exactly how much juice we need to flow to get this all to work.

And we'd be able to see how long the stock signals cut power to the ignitor (dwell time)

Haven't had a scope on it, the ECU signal to the Ignitor is just a low level switching voltage, same as the Injector signal.

The coils are feed 12V, the Ignitor grounds them when the ECU Dwell signal is sent, the Ignitor looks at the current the coil is flowing till it reaches about 4 amps, it then holds that current till the ECU Dwell times out, to turn the Ignitor off.
So your switching transistors need to be able to dissipate the heat, while the Ignitor is holding the current at about 4amps. All the heavy current is handled by the Ignitor.

As for some possibly helpful links:
Also, am I correct in assuming the stock IACV is a PWM control? It doesn't seem to have enough wires for a stepper style.


It is neither,:) it is balanced between two voltages that are varied between 1 and 10V. Idle is 5v each side.

Harvey.

[BackWoodsBob]

Odd, why on the ecu pinout it clearly labels one as 'open' the other as 'closed'. As I'd imagine it grounds one side or the other to either open or close the IACV seeings how the center wire of the plug is +12v.

[oab_au]

Odd, why on the ecu pinout it clearly labels one as 'open' the other as 'closed'. As I'd imagine it grounds one side or the other to either open or close the IACV seeings how the center wire of the plug is +12v.

Yes thats right, but if it grounded one side, the valve would go to full movement. Both sides are grounded together.
The ECU has two transistors that are oppositely driven. As one increase its current, the other one reduces its current, so that the armature is always held between the two magnets.

Harvey.

[icingdeath88]

Odd, why on the ecu pinout it clearly labels one as 'open' the other as 'closed'. As I'd imagine it grounds one side or the other to either open or close the IACV seeings how the center wire of the plug is +12v.

Yea, you're correct. And that's really all you need to know to get it wired up.

[BackWoodsBob]

Yes thats right, but if it grounded one side, the valve would go to full movement. Both sides are grounded together.
The ECU has two transistors that are oppositely driven. As one increase its current, the other one reduces its current, so that the armature is always held between the two magnets.

Harvey.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up Harvey!

[BRZCory]

Ok, so I'm pretty set on the Zeal Engineering daughterboard for the following reasons:

1. Dual VR conditioners. They're not as small or quite as good as the BrickEMS VR conditioner, but they'll get the job done.
2. 3 outputs. Instead of building 3 more transistor circuits to run the ignition from logic-level to power-level, you can use the 3 LED's + the 3 outputs from the MSExtra into the zeal board to give you 6 good transistor-controlled ignition outputs! :D
3. PWM idle control. I don't know if I'll need this or not, but it'd be nice to have.
4. Tach driver. Again, I don't think I'll need it, but it might be nice.

Though I still think that even with these extra output channels, I'll still need to build one more for the electric cooling fans. So I may just design/etch my own board, but we'll see about that (I may even try having a board made, found a new board-maker, and through-plated holes are SOOOOO much easier/better looking to solder). If I DO DIY my own, I'll do SMD components based on the same chip as the BrickEMS, as it's newer and better (and simpler). That, and I have yet to play with SMD components, and after my LED tail light project, I'm VERY tired of through-hole components!

I'm also looking for a cable that has all the pins populated. I haven't pulled mine apart yet, but as it's a relay board patch cable I HIGHLY doubt they're all populated.

I've also ditched the idea of using the relay board, There just aren't enough outputs on it for everything. Furthermore, half of the cable is useless as the entire top half of it is grounded on the relay board itself. Talk about useless. If I get *really* fancy, I might add another connector to the megasquirt box (DB9?) for the spark and fuel outputs.

I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do for the wiring harness. The majority of my problem is that I want to half-ass it. I want to both have a MS harness, but have a stock harness so that I can run the stock ECU while I'm still trying to get everything sorted. So, I'm trying to find a 2nd stock engine harness, ignitor connector, etc. Because who doesn't love spending twice as much?!

As far as actual progress, I did swap the jumpers on my stock board from "Opto" to "VR" triggers for the tach input and output, and I also added the 12v feed wire for the MSextra chip. So, I mean, that's cool and all.


EDIT: After looking over the zeal card again, it appears that the PWM and tach outputs are just more transistor circuits, so maybe I can make them work.

[SilverSpear]

Guys, I am not really following this thread, but I am posting this on behalf of a friend who saw and read it:

"The IACV comprises a voltage sensitive rotary solenoid valve, biased towards a central rest position, at which point the valve is held half open by means of a permanent magnet. A double wound coil provides open closed operation from this rest position. This arrangement provides for two way adjustment, constantly variable towards fully open or shut, depending on which coil winding is energised and the level of voltage applied separately to each winding. The mean half open position, held by a permanent magnet ensures fail safe operation.

Three electrical connections are involved. The centre pin on the connector is common to both windings and is energised positive at nominal battery voltage. The remaining two connections provide for open and close operation of the valve aligned with a variable voltage, applied via two separate negative polarised control circuits. A practical test has shown that the valve fully opens or closes from the mean rest position, with 8 volts negative applied to either of the designated terminals. The solenoid resistance measures a nominal nine ohms, each side of the common connection."

[BRZCory]

Thank you for the info!

Attached is the FSM for the fuel injection, and it shows that for the By-pass air control solenoid valve (Or IACV for normal people) it has an "open" end and a "close" end. Open gets 7 volts, close gets 6. Granted, this doesn't tell us much about *how* it functions, so knowing that it's variable throughout the voltage range helps immensely! I was trying to figure out if it was some sort of pulsed stepper motor or something.

Page 71 has the drawing of that circuit, controlled by 1 input and 2 transistors. Vurry interesting.

Further edit, the factory setup is this: The valve is always open with no signals (and ignition/main relay on). Both circuits inside the IACV send power from the "power" pin (that's connected to the main relay) to the ECU. The "CLOSE" wire (with the ECU sending no signal) will energize the gate on the transistor on the "OPEN" wire, thus allowing current to flow, and "opening" the IACV. When the ECU energizes the "CLOSE" transistor, energy flows through that, and no longer energizes the "OPEN" transistor, thus closing the valve.

1 ECU control, 2 transistors (powerful enough to control the IACV, V=IR, 8v=I * 9ohms, I = 1.1amps, so a 2022 should be fine, TIP120 would be overkill, but still very fine ), and some creative wiring. I may just breadboard this later today, because it just seems cool, maybe with a 555 timer for PWM control.

Also, the "OPEN" wire is shielded, but I'm not sure why. The shield isn't connected to the ECU ground at all, so I'm guessing it's to prevent cross-talk between the 2 wires.

Now, to figure out how to attach it to megasquirt. I'll assume PWM control, but I need to do some more research on "Flyback" and see if it can control separate IACV OPEN and IACV CLOSE circuits. (This may be irrelivent now that I know how to do it with one wire)

I think that everyone should read through that FSM manual to get a basic idea of how the stock system works. It also provides *some* tables with rough numbers for where the factory engineers thought that the EG33 needed additional fuel and timing (just above zero degrees celcuis the enrichment map changes slope for instance). Lots of good info in there. But I'm sure most of you have seen/read it already.

[BackWoodsBob]

Ok, so I'm pretty set on the Zeal Engineering daughterboard for the following reasons:

1. Dual VR conditioners. They're not as small or quite as good as the BrickEMS VR conditioner, but they'll get the job done.
2. 3 outputs. Instead of building 3 more transistor circuits to run the ignition from logic-level to power-level, you can use the 3 LED's + the 3 outputs from the MSExtra into the zeal board to give you 6 good transistor-controlled ignition outputs! :D
3. PWM idle control. I don't know if I'll need this or not, but it'd be nice to have.
4. Tach driver. Again, I don't think I'll need it, but it might be nice.

Though I still think that even with these extra output channels, I'll still need to build one more for the electric cooling fans. So I may just design/etch my own board, but we'll see about that (I may even try having a board made, found a new board-maker, and through-plated holes are SOOOOO much easier/better looking to solder). If I DO DIY my own, I'll do SMD components based on the same chip as the BrickEMS, as it's newer and better (and simpler). That, and I have yet to play with SMD components, and after my LED tail light project, I'm VERY tired of through-hole components!

I'm also looking for a cable that has all the pins populated. I haven't pulled mine apart yet, but as it's a relay board patch cable I HIGHLY doubt they're all populated.

I've also ditched the idea of using the relay board, There just aren't enough outputs on it for everything. Furthermore, half of the cable is useless as the entire top half of it is grounded on the relay board itself. Talk about useless. If I get *really* fancy, I might add another connector to the megasquirt box (DB9?) for the spark and fuel outputs.

I'm still trying to figure out what I want to do for the wiring harness. The majority of my problem is that I want to half-ass it. I want to both have a MS harness, but have a stock harness so that I can run the stock ECU while I'm still trying to get everything sorted. So, I'm trying to find a 2nd stock engine harness, ignitor connector, etc. Because who doesn't love spending twice as much?!

As far as actual progress, I did swap the jumpers on my stock board from "Opto" to "VR" triggers for the tach input and output, and I also added the 12v feed wire for the MSextra chip. So, I mean, that's cool and all.


EDIT: After looking over the zeal card again, it appears that the PWM and tach outputs are just more transistor circuits, so maybe I can make them work.


Why not buy the diy bob and make your ecu 100% plug and play so you can jusst swap them back and forth as you sort **** out and still drive to work?

[BRZCory]

Put it all on a breadboard!

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0160_zps56bbcf73.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0160_zps56bbcf73.jpg.html)

What I found was that the "closed" wire stays powered all the time, and the "open" wire is shielded because it's the only one getting a pulsed signal. I'm still at a loss as to why they'd need 2 transistors for this, as it would make more sense to simply eliminate the "closed" side of the circuit, and leave it always grounded, then just modify the "open" signal to suit. Any EE's out there want to fill me in? Maybe a current-limiting resistor between the "CLOSED" collector and the "OPEN" gate would turn the "CLOSED" line off when the open line was energized?

First video w/ an 80 ohm resistor between the "CLOSED" collector and "OPEN" gate:
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_VIDEO0026_zpsd89c5082.jpg (http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/VIDEO0026_zpsd89c5082.mp4)

EDIT: Yea, that's what it is. Added a 10kohm resistor between the "CLOSED" collector and the "OPEN" gate, and it effectively creates a switchback circuit, whereby one is on when the other is (mostly) off. I'll upload the vid in a few.

Video with a 10k ohm resistor:
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_VIDEO0027_zps06ae0a48.jpg (http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/VIDEO0027_zps06ae0a48.mp4)

EDIT: It's a variation on a Schmitt Trigger. Yes, I'm an EE newb.

[BRZCory]

Why not buy the diy bob and make your ecu 100% plug and play so you can jusst swap them back and forth as you sort **** out and still drive to work?
Because the wiring is different. I'd need to add wires to the stock harness for the IAT, and some more wires for the ignition. A second harness is the way to go.

And they're friggin $90. Eff that noise. For that much, I'll just hack up my spare stock ECU and use the connector from it like they do for the "DIY megasquirt inside stock ECU case" threads.

[BackWoodsBob]

pretty sure due to it having 2 electromagnets it's able to act as a stepper motor, by energizing one coil more than the other it can turn in small increments. Or it can hold a position.

Not sure why it isn't a spring/always closed or always open then controlled to idle the car as that would be less complex. Then again, subaru did a lot of things in a complicated way such as the window regulator system haha.

[BackWoodsBob]

Because the wiring is different. I'd need to add wires to the stock harness for the IAT, and some more wires for the ignition. A second harness is the way to go.

And they're friggin $90. Eff that noise. For that much, I'll just hack up my spare stock ECU and use the connector from it like they do for the "DIY megasquirt inside stock ECU case" threads.


Wait, you can't use the stock harness/plug to work with the IAT? Doesn't the MAF send the reading through one of the 4/5 wires?

[SilverSpear]

My friend suggests that you carefully check post 117, where the IACV is carefully described in detail, and note that:-

Only a single inductor is involved, fitted with dual windings, one in reverse of the other. In this way two voltages of the same polarity enable open and closed operation.

There is no return spring. The use of a permanent solenoid magnet retains a rotary solenoid in a mean central rest position and enables two variable voltages to move, position and hold the solenoid valve at any desired point, towards open or closed. This arrangement also insurers no voltage, fail safe operation.

A balanced pair of NPN and PNP transistors within the TCU, allow a single control voltage, to swing the supply voltage, towards either of the open or closed solenoid windings, via their ground circuits.

[oab_au]

My friend Trevor suggests that you carefully check post 117, where the IACV is carefully described in detail, and note that:-

Only a single inductor is involved, fitted with dual windings, one in reverse of the other. In this way two voltages of the same polarity enable open and closed operation.

There is no return spring. The use of a permanent solenoid magnet retains a rotary solenoid in a mean central rest position and enables two variable voltages to move, position and hold the solenoid valve at any desired point, towards open or closed. This arrangement also insurers no voltage, fail safe operation.

A balanced pair of NPN and PNP transistors within the TCU, allow a single control voltage, to swing the supply voltage, towards either of the open or closed solenoid windings, via their ground circuits.

He was wrong then and is still wrong.

Harvey.

[BRZCory]

Picked up a spare motor with an engine wiring harness today, which means I get to bench test :D And that I've got a spare IACV to test.

Obligatory funny picture (Click for fullsize, or use Firefox/chrome with the Thumbnail zoom/Hoverzoom add-on because it will change the way you internet):
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0167_zps3ca6a5d8.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0167_zps3ca6a5d8.jpg.html)

[BackWoodsBob]

where'd you snag that brute from?

I need an engine stand :(

[SilverSpear]

He was wrong then and is still wrong.

Harvey.

Hello Harvey, I am simply a messenger, and you are ALL my friends without differentiation.

Trevor sends this message: "The accused invites those who are interested in facts to make contact by email. ---

ralphmedway@gmail/.com"

Play it nice, we look up to you guys!

[icingdeath88]

Wait, you can't use the stock harness/plug to work with the IAT? Doesn't the MAF send the reading through one of the 4/5 wires?

You can hijack one of the MAF wires to run the signal from the IAT, but you will have to cut off the MAF plug to get at the wire. Not for a PNP setup.

[BackWoodsBob]

Why would you have to do that, why not tap into the signal wire instead? I did it as my 'map' reference wire to my phase 2 4eat transmission. Works like a charm.

[icingdeath88]

You mean use the signal from the MAF as the IAT sensor? I'm not understanding what you mean.

[BackWoodsBob]

Exactly, doesn't the MAF measure 2 things. Air flow AND air temp? Can't you use the air temp sensor's output and jack into it for the MS?

[icingdeath88]

Exactly, doesn't the MAF measure 2 things. Air flow AND air temp? Can't you use the air temp sensor's output and jack into it for the MS?

I don't think it works like that. If you had the MAF voltage/airflow calibration curve for our MAF, you could use the MAF directly instead of the MAP/IAT sensors with the Megasquirt. (At least with the MS3X I know it can be done, not sure about the MS2, but I'd be surprised if not.) But I don't think you can get air temp data from the MAF like that.

What I was trying to say you could do with the wiring is splice a connector for an IAT sensor. (I used the GM one.) To save the trouble of running new wiring all the way up there and being able use a pin on the stock ECU plug.

[BRZCory]

The MS2/Extra does have MAF options. I don't remember off the top of my head but I know one is MAF/MAP, and possibly a MAF all by itself.

That being said, a hot-wire MAF works on temperature to measure flow. It heats the wire to a known temperature, then measures how much energy it takes to keep that wire at that temperature. The air goes past the wire, which cools it. The MAF heats up the wire again, and that voltage is DIRECTLY related to how much air went past the element. This is how a MAF works.

It does not have an air temp sensor like you think it does. (Or at least I haven't seen one).

[BackWoodsBob]

Hm, there are 2 sensors on our maf's, I thought one was ambient air temp sensor. Maybe I'm wrong.

[icingdeath88]

Hm, there are 2 sensors on our maf's, I thought one was ambient air temp sensor. Maybe I'm wrong.

There is no ECU pin carrying such a signal from the MAF. If there's a separate sensor, it's self-contained to the MAF. I kind of doubt there's enough circuitry in the MAF for that though.

Idea: Maybe using some kind of math trick where you calculate the airflow using the MAP/RPM method, and again using the MAF method, and the discrepancy could give you the air temp? But I don't think any of us have the know-how to make any use of that idea. And if the MAF is going to be connected anyway, then there's not much point, you could just use the MAF itself.

The GM IAT sensors are cheap enough that that seems the easier/simpler way to go in any case. Like I said before, also, you can just use a suby CTS if you have a spare, since the resistance/temp curve is known (posted on first page). But it won't respond to temp changes as quickly as an open sensor like the suggested GM one. Depending on where you put it in the intake path and how big of temp fluctuations you expect to see, if may work just fine.

[BackWoodsBob]

Hrm. Wonder what that second sensor is hanging off the maf probe then. ohwell.

[oab_au]

As Cory says, the hot wire is cooled by the air flow and the temp of the air. So the result is a combination of the two, no seperate Air Temp Sensor.

Harvey.

[BRZCory]

4 days with no bumps??!!!!

Well fine then! Here's some IACV testing. I love having a spare motor :D (click for video)

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_VIDEO0028_zps3b2d2fa0.jpg (http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/VIDEO0028_zps3b2d2fa0.mp4)

So it's supposed to run at 6 or 7 volts, and the resistance per side is 9 ohms. So that's about .777 amps. 2222's are rated at 1 amp, so they should be sufficent. I guess my next plan is to hook it up to the megasquirt and see what happens.

In other news, has anyone else got iacv settings for the EG33? I know you guys have gotten cars to run on the megasquirt, but it seems like I'm doing a lot of work on this IACV and I'm not sure any of it is useful at all...

My other question is about basic firing order. I know it's 162435 or something strange like that, but my question is this: Are there 2 cylinders firing at the same time? Or is it strictly one? Because if there are 2 firing at the same time, then I wouldn't feel bad about setting it up as a wasted spark setup. However if it's only 1 at a time, I'm worried for the ignitor. The MS2/extra has enough outputs to do all 6, but then I'd lose outputs to do other things (because I need outputs for the cooling fans, IRIS sytem, and whatever else).

[oab_au]

4 days with no bumps??!!!!

Well fine then! Here's some IACV testing. I love having a spare motor :D (click for video)

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_VIDEO0028_zps3b2d2fa0.jpg (http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/VIDEO0028_zps3b2d2fa0.mp4)

So it's supposed to run at 6 or 7 volts, and the resistance per side is 9 ohms. So that's about .777 amps. 2222's are rated at 1 amp, so they should be sufficent. I guess my next plan is to hook it up to the megasquirt and see what happens.

I would look at it getting full 12V across one side, in the case of it doing the full shut down when it is decelerating with a closed throttle. So about 1.3amps through the driving transistor.

In other news, has anyone else got iacv settings for the EG33? I know you guys have gotten cars to run on the megasquirt, but it seems like I'm doing a lot of work on this IACV and I'm not sure any of it is useful at all...


As you have probably found the valve doesn’t like to be driven by a switch mode signal. It really needs a varying voltage to allow it to move smoothly. You could drive the transistor array with a Pulse Width, but the PW would need a lot of filtering to smooth the signal into the transistors.
It would be better to drive the valve from a Digital to Analogy output, if you have one spare, or fit a D to A chip to do it.

It really begs the question why use the controller to run the valve at all. If you and not going to operate the valve the same as the ECU does to control the idle speed, why note just drive the transistor array with a variable resistor, and set the idle with a knob, you would still have the Axillary Air Valve to set the cold start idle, and you can just set the idle speed yourself.

My other question is about basic firing order. I know it's 162435 or something strange like that, but my question is this: Are there 2 cylinders firing at the same time? Or is it strictly one? Because if there are 2 firing at the same time, then I wouldn't feel bad about setting it up as a wasted spark setup. However if it's only 1 at a time, I'm worried for the ignitor. The MS2/extra has enough outputs to do all 6, but then I'd lose outputs to do other things (because I need outputs for the cooling fans, IRIS sytem, and whatever else).

No it fires one cylinder each side alternately. You could connect two Ignitor inputs together, through a couple of diodes, and fire two cylinders with a wasted spark.

Harvey.

[BRZCory]

See I am going to use the megasquirt to control the idle speed. I only assembled the circuit to see if the wiring diagrams were correct for the IACV. From my testing, it would appear that the 2-transistor circuit detailed in the stock diagram is inaccurate.

The whole reason for this is that megasquirt, as far as I can tell, doesn't support our IACV. It only supports an on/off signal (so, like a high-idle), a stepper motor style, or a PWM signal. If I can get the PWM signal to work, then great. However it's trying to control both an open and close circuits, with just one output.

Honestly though, I haven't even looked at it all this week. BackWoodsBob died last Saturday (motorcycle accident) and the funeral is tomorrow, so I've been a bit sidetracked. I'll get back on the megasquirt studying next tuesday or so.

[icingdeath88]

The whole reason for this is that megasquirt, as far as I can tell, doesn't support our IACV. It only supports an on/off signal (so, like a high-idle), a stepper motor style, or a PWM signal. If I can get the PWM signal to work, then great. However it's trying to control both an open and close circuits, with just one output.

The PWM signal ought to work. Just wire it up like I posted before:

Ground to Open-> PWM output of MS
Power-> +12V supply
Ground to Close-> resistor-> ground

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Hardware.htm#Fidle (Scroll to "3 Wired Bosch Valves")

Our IACV works beautifully in 3-wire PWM mode with the MS3X, for me, so I think it should also work for you if you do the above. If you have issues, try switching the open/closed wires, and setting it to inverted (MS PWM output closes it instead of opens it). (I can explain why, but I'd rather cross that bridge when we come to it. Has to do with the valve potentially closing too much.)

Whether it's technically a varying voltage like Harvey explained, or PWM, it should still be controllable as if it were a PWM valve. Think about it, 12V, 50% duty cycle to both the "close" and "open" pins should have the same result as 6V constant on both pins, right? Or, if not exactly the same, then at least similar enough that it should get the job done. Harvey, correct me if I'm way off base, but that's my understanding.

[BRZCory]

Your understanding of PWM is pretty close, but the only thing missing is the time factor. "Duty cycle" = "On time" (Or actually a percentage of on to off).

If your electronics are fast enough, and your frequency slow enough, they'll actually respond to that full 12v, which *could* fry things.

(I just made some LED tail lights that DIM via PWM, so I've had a bit of study in this area)

That being said, I'm ordering a TIP122 (or a few) now. Along with the mica insulator kits, and a 50w resistor. I also bought the JBPerf V2.1 VR conditioner board, so I'll get to play with that as well.

Things I still need:
Cable to hook all this up, as most of the DB37 cables I've seen don't have all the pins populated, and I'm going to need most of them
Knock sensor control of some sort
Wideband

Oh, and the rest of my supercharger. But that's another story.

[oab_au]

The systems that you both have considered will open and close the valve. The only problem that I see is trying to keep the valve at a steady position.
PWM is an on off signal, full drive, then no drive, like the gearbox solenoids that you can hear vibrate with no oil pressure to damp the vibrations, run at about 50 Hz.

Without some external property to do the smoothing, you can only increase the PW frequency to damp the action, but there is a limit to how high a frequency the reluctance of the core in the electromagnets can respond to before they loose movement.

The experimenting that you all are doing, will eventually find a way.:)

Harvey.

[BRZCory]

The PWM signal ought to work. Just wire it up like I posted before:

Ground to Open-> PWM output of MS
Power-> +12V supply
Ground to Close-> resistor-> ground

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/MS2-Extra_Hardware.htm#Fidle (Scroll to "3 Wired Bosch Valves")

Our IACV works beautifully in 3-wire PWM mode with the MS3X, for me, so I think it should also work for you if you do the above. If you have issues, try switching the open/closed wires, and setting it to inverted (MS PWM output closes it instead of opens it). (I can explain why, but I'd rather cross that bridge when we come to it. Has to do with the valve potentially closing too much.)

Whether it's technically a varying voltage like Harvey explained, or PWM, it should still be controllable as if it were a PWM valve. Think about it, 12V, 50% duty cycle to both the "close" and "open" pins should have the same result as 6V constant on both pins, right? Or, if not exactly the same, then at least similar enough that it should get the job done. Harvey, correct me if I'm way off base, but that's my understanding.
Got my parts in, TIP122 and a 50w, 33 ohm resistor. Wired it up just like the diagram. It does work, but the resistor gets EXTREMELY hot very quickly at 12v (I can't keep touching it after 10 seconds). I dunno how I feel about trusting it to be powered all the time, though I do have a couple heatsinks laying around.

I also dug up some more info, lemme see if I can find it.

[BRZCory]

Got more parts in!

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/IMAG0214_zps36a29257.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0214_zps36a29257.jpg.html)

This thing is TINY! Slightly larger than my thumbnail. But if it makes my subaru sensors work better, I'm all for it! :D

[BRZCory]

Ok, progress on the idle controller. Right now I've got this circuit setup on the breadboard, and it seems to work pretty well!

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IACV10_zpsc6ba47a5.gif (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IACV10_zpsc6ba47a5.gif.html)

It does take 2 tip122's, both with heatsinks, and 2x 2+watt 100 ohm resistors, but it works!

Megasquirt (well, MSExtra) settings are as follows: PWM, Non-inverted (normal), with a 4x multiplier.

Haven't tried it on the car yet, but on the bench, with mah little spare iac, it works! :D

[oab_au]

That looks fine mate, what frequency is the PW cycle?

Harvey.

[BRZCory]

That looks fine mate, what frequency is the PW cycle?

Harvey.
Board is designed and has been sent to OshPark. They've already panelized it and should be making it right now! :D

http://uploads.oshpark.com/uploads/project/top_image/l5pRIUMC/i.png

The frequency is always 30.5hz with megasquirt. They don't allow you to change that, only the multiplier. So, it'd be 30.5x4 or 122hz.

Also, it's only one 2w, 100ohm resistor. In my haste I neglected the fact that when wired internally into the megasquirt, it will be a logic-level input. So, at 5v, it's a 41.6 ohm, 1/2w resistor (just on the PWM input). I'll test it all fully once I get the boards in :D

Next project is a biggie. I've been going back and forth with how I want to wire this whole thing up, but I think I've finally settled on just using the stock ECU connector. So, this weekend, somewhere between the rally-x, the birthday party, the photography session, and mowing the lawn, I'll find time to de-solder the stock ECU connector from my spare ECU. I'd love to make a breakout board for it (or just use the one from DIYBOB) but that's a lot of designing (Or $85) for something that I can just use wires for (and, having three or four spare engine harnesses from other projects, I've got plenty of wires). I'll still need to run a IAT sensor though, so I don't know where I'll add in those wires. The main problem is that I need all those injector outputs, and the stock megasquirt connector just doesn't have enough pins. 6 for the spark, 4 for the cam and crank sensors, etc. The MS3X has plenty of ins and outs, but not mah old box!

I also need to actually install the VR2 board. Seems pretty straightforward (after you find the one post on the MS forums that actually describes where your putting everything).

So yeah, to-do list:
ECU connector
VR2 wiring
IACV board

[BRZCory]

VR2 board installed (at least the power and outputs are good to go, just the inputs to connector to do yet)
Also scavenged an ECU connector from my spare stock ECU. Now I just need to find/make a case to contain everything.
I also apparently need to build logic-level injector driver circuits, and since I need to build 6 of them, I'm probably going to order another custom board for that. We'll see how long my PWM board takes to get here before I decide on a course of action for that.

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0230_zps4bcb178c.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0230_zps4bcb178c.jpg.html)
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0228_ZOE003_zps5327b783.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0228_ZOE003_zps5327b783.jpg.html)

VR2 install instructions:
V+ to 5v on the proto area (for the internal VR2 board, the external ones need 12v)
GND to ground
Out 1 to Tsel
Out 2 to Js10

VR1+ to TachSelect (If you want to use the DB37 pin for that side of the input)
VR1- to Spr1
VR2+ to Spr2
VR2- to Spr3

Of course those VR pins are all optional depending on your install, TachSelect goes straight to the DB37 connector, same as the Spr via's. The only thing to watch out for is that *some* of the megasquirt patch cables don't have all of the pins populated with wires. The cable that came with mine (to connect to a relay board) didn't have them populated, which is one of the many reasons I'm using the stock ECU connector. So, buyer beware, read the description.

[BRZCory]

Getting closer! :D

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0249_zps63cc0dce.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0249_zps63cc0dce.jpg.html)

Size comparison:
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0250_zps73453165.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0250_zps73453165.jpg.html)

Populated:
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0252_zps79846f1f.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0252_zps79846f1f.jpg.html)

Wired:
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0253_zps295555d6.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0253_zps295555d6.jpg.html)

It works! With PWM control courtesy of a 555 timer for the moment (until I convert my spark outputs and put my megasquirt back together)

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0254_zpsc4dfd39d.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0254_zpsc4dfd39d.jpg.html)

If anyone wants/needs one lemme know, I've got 2 extra boards that I have nothing to do with now (OshPark gives you 3 every time you order one). Turn around time was 12 days from when I ordered the boards to when I had them in my hands, so for under $10, I can't complain! Next up is to make a heatsink for the transistors, and mount it into the 'squirt.

And I still need to make 3 more spark outputs, but I'll probably just do that in the proto area. A 6-transistor board for spark outputs would be pretty badass, but I don't know if I want to wait another 2 weeks to have one made.

I will say this though: With the VR2 board, the Idle board, and a new spark output board, I've almost completely redesigned the V3.0 board itself. Over half the components on it are wasted space (and cost). Once I pull out the DB connector in favor of the factory one, I may as well have just used the megasquirt CPU and made a custom board.

But oh well, soldering on!

[BRZCory]

More fun: Spark outputs. All 6 of them.

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0259_zps6b0aaecf.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0259_zps6b0aaecf.jpg.html)

Took the LED's out of the circuit, because I can. Changed all the transistors to 2222's because they're essentially the same as the 3904's, but can handle more current.

So, list is down to:

Tach Out
Install the IACV board (still need to make a heatsink first though)
Wiring harness connector

At this point, I think it probably would have been easier to DIY a mainboard, and only use the MS2 ECU itself. It's pretty ridiculous how little of the V3.0 board I'm actually utilizing. Without the Idle, VR sensors, or ignition outputs, there's very little for the board to do. Plus, looking at the actual diagrams, there are entire paths dedicated to features I'm not using (like hall effect sensors or stepper motor IACV circuits).

Ah well, slow and steady progress.

[icingdeath88]

Very nice, glad to see somebody getting it going. I am working on the thesis for my master's degree, and will be for the next few months, so I just don't have time for this stuff right now, but I'll try and help as much as I can when I can.

[BRZCory]

Got a proper soldering station with temperature-controlled iron :D

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0282_zps99b11c7f.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0282_zps99b11c7f.jpg.html)

So I went to town on my spark wires, and got my finished IACV board soldered on (mostly)

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/th_IMAG0284_zpse1f4c267.jpg (http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/BRZcory/media/IMAG0284_zpse1f4c267.jpg.html)

Still need to connect outputs to my stock connector. Currently there are 12 outputs that wouldn't fit onto the DB37 stock connector. Granted, I've got about 8 empty slots on that one, but I'd need a custom cable. So, that's my next soldering job: Removing the DB37 :eek:

[BRZCory]

Bump, anyone still working on this other than me?

I had a coil go out the other day, so I'll be ordering 6 of the cheap-er replacement ones from this thread.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=59550

But I'm still reading up on it, and probably won't order them until later this week. Maybe a battery relocation too.

As far as the megasquirt, I haven't touched it in a few weeks. I was crewing for LSPR, then I had to go to Chicago to help out a buddy. In a few weeks here I'm picking up BackwoodsBob's old EG33 and a few of his other unfinished projects, so we'll see what comes of that.

I promise to get back on this soon though. I even have an ECU connector sitting next to it waiting to be wired up!

[icingdeath88]

In a few weeks here I'm picking up BackwoodsBob's old EG33 and a few of his other unfinished projects, so we'll see what comes of that.

I'm glad to hear that. I'm sure that's what he would have wanted.

I wouldn't use those coils, if you're going to deviate from stock, I'd go with something beefier, like the LS coils. I forget, what were you going to do for an igniter? The LS coils are "smart coils", so you won't need a separate ignitor. But, really there are a lot of choices.

After the semester's over, I'll find my way back to this. Did you see the new tunerstudio release candidate features? Some pretty nifty stuff, though I'm not sure what all of them actually mean. WUE autotune, though, will be hugely helpful.

Warmup Auto Tune - WUE Analyze Live!
GPS Support
HP & Torque Gauges
Distance & Economy Gauge
Search for settings - I hope this is what I imagine it is - search for settings used by others with the same configuration.
Context Help
Table Smoothing
Table X & Y Re-Bin
Dashboard Enhancement
Project Archiving
Display of Calibration selection
Data Log Profiles
High Speed Logging
Automatic Logging
FTDI D2XX USB Support
WiFi TCP/IP Connectivity
VE Analyze Improvements
Auto Update improvements
String fields
Much More