I'm tired.

[subi-crosser]

My sore back has been feeding, housing, providing 'free' rides to medical appt that are 'free' to them, but come out of my taxes for the great unwashed for several decades now.

We have a president that offers 'free' medical to everyone, so I guess I can retire now. (Wife's insurance kept me working)

'WE, the people' gave up on hard work tonite. Why should I hold out and resist 'free money' from obummer? I'm still paying for my cell phone. If I retire, can I get an 'obummer-phone' like all the democrats in cleveland?
This 'election' was bought with MY union dues and 'give aways'.
This election was BOUGHT on the BACKS of my Grandchildren. I am so sorry for what we have become!!

[Huskymaniac]

For those of us that see what is going on and why, it is like watching a train wreck unfold in slow motion before your eyes. It is like the people are too afraid to make the sacrifices necessary to get back on track. The solutions are simple:

1. Balanced budgets required by law. This really would cause a lot of economic pain short term but would save the country long term. Our grandparents survived the depression and WW2. It is time for this generation to sack up.
2. Modify the primary system so everyone votes in primaries of all parties. I don't believe people would intentionally vote for the crappy candidate in the other party. I believe we would get candidates that don't pander to the extremes of their parties. We would get better choices.
3. Modify the electoral college to be one vote per congressional district and two per state. This would avoid buying elections by bailing out or buying the votes in any way of a small number of states. It would force candidates to care about more states while still forcing them to balance the interests of rural and urban areas.
4. Make it illegal for unions to strike for more benefits or higher wages. Unions have made it impossible to manufacture in the USA by effectively creating labor monopolies. This country can't survive long terms as a service only economy. We actually need to MAKE something too.
5. Limit the compensations of CEOs to a reasonable multiple of the lowest or average salary of their company. They would actually have to make their company succeed to make more money themselves.
6. Term limits for congress (12 years?). They become too powerful and only serve themselves by doing what it necessary to get re-elected.
7. CEOs should be able to be fired by a vote of no confidence by employees or shareholders. The good ole boy network needs to be castrated.
8. Change Welfare and or the tax code to provide incentives for people on public assistance to benefit from actually working.
9. Upgrade the electric grid and build and maintain safe nuclear power plants. Build them where they are safe from natural disasters. Use the Navy to maintain and operate them. Build them as a distributed grid of various sizes so spent fuel can be passed down to further drive out the radioactivity and make it less toxic to store. Defend each plant with a National Guard base. THEN we can move to affordable electric cars AND eliminate our dependency on foreign oil. We can still supplement this with solar, wind and hydro power but Nuclear has to be the foundation.
10. Overhaul the tax code. Treat all capital gains as normal income. Eliminate corporate taxes to, again, make it easier to be in the USA and be profitable. We need to create jobs and eliminate the massive tax loopholes used by the wealthy. Romney is a good example. It should not be possible to do what he did.

[Sean486]

I feel pretty sick about it.

[Huskymaniac]

I feel pretty sick about it.

It is discouraging but I really believe that everything happens for a reason. It isn't so much based on a religious faith as it is based on a theory I have for the existance of the universe and humanity. There is only one timeline of events for which the beginning and end are consistent. As bad as the storms of life may be, and they can be pretty bad, there is a reason it is happening. Perhaps the American Empire has to fall and be replaced with something even better.

[Lookin4SVX]

For those of us that see what is going on and why, it is like watching a train wreck unfold in slow motion before your eyes. It is like the people are too afraid to make the sacrifices necessary to get back on track. The solutions are simple:

Abolish the federal reserve system and go back to congress issuing sound money instead of having a private company of bankers selling money to the government at interest..

Take all party affiliations off the ballots, No more D or R lines, make the public have to research the individuals, not just vote the party line.

Use popular vote to assign electoral collage. No more winner takes all "battleground states".
Each candidate should receive how ever many electors there % earned them, this is how the state of Maine does it, and all other should also.

I would make the house of representatives chosen like jury duty. Pick average Americans at random.

I would make it illegal to lobby congress. This is called bribery in any other field of work.

I would abolish the income tax. It is wrong to take my money off the top.
Taxes should only be sales tax. You can chose to not consume goods, you cannot chose to not have income.

Unions are a good thing. They prevent us from going back to living in factory housing and buying from the factory store..
All states should be at will employment. So if the boss don't like your union demands, your all out on the street.

Welfare should be a limited time, a security net to keep a roof over your head until you can get back into the workforce, not a type of lifestyle.

Energy crisis? Turn NV and NM into huge solar fields. Develop the technology to transmit this power across the country.
We could power this entire country off the sun, but there are limits on how far your can transmit it down the lines.
There is no reason why we cannot take the sunlight turn it into to microwaves and beam it all over the country via satellites, except for the infrastructure is not there..

Develop power felt nano particles into the roadways, let the roads make their own power to run street lights..

Just some of my thoughts on the subject...

[NikFu S.]

I'm tired too, as I have actually been researching and keeping myself updated on things like "Obamaphone", which was actually a program initiated by Bush (http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/the-obama-phone/).
Golly gee, it's easy to think Obama is **** when you fall for the propaganda, isn't it?

There are perfectly legitimate reasons to criticize him, but the Fox News audience focuses on retarded **** that doesn't make any sense and can be proven to be fabricated like his "real" nationality, religion, calling him a socialist/communist, or other idiotic distractions.

FBI drug raids increased under Obama. That's a positive for the Republicans.
Drone production and drone strikes have increased DRAMATICALLY under Obama. Plus for you "anti-terror" police state types and anti-Muslims. (http://www.businessinsider.com/drone-double-tap-first-responders-2012-9)
Obama extended the Bush tax cuts.
He BAILED OUT WALL STREET and the auto industry (he crated er jerbss! Obvious capitalist is OBVIOUS)
He left Iraq on BUSH'S TIMELINE.
He authorized indefinite detention of US CITIZENS.

He's not even a real liberal, he's moderate.

Romney is a Vietnam draft dodger, as well as his whole family.
Romney BANKRUPTED businesses INTENTIONALLY as head of Bain Capital and outsourced jobs to CHINA. He can't even keep HIS OWN MONEY in the U.S.
Romney has proven he has little regard for half of the country.
Romney is completely incapable of:
- relating to the common people (YOU)
- being consistent on any issue
- releasing his tax returns
- not being a pompous dick

You want to know why Obama is getting a second term? It's not because people are becoming lazy, it's because the GOP and Tea Party self-destructed by nominating the biggest ****ing idiots in the history of politics. You can't run a campaign on insanity and ignorance of simple biological functions (Todd Akin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Akin_%27legitimate_rape%27_and_pregnancy_comm ent_controversy), anyone?). You can't run a campaign on disinformation when any monkey with an internet connection can FACT CHECK everything.

What's the last bull**** thing Romney said that put the nail in his coffin? You probably fell for it. He said Chrysler outsourced jobs to China. That's not true, GM put out a press release telling him how full of **** he was (http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2012/10/31/gm-on-romney-campaign-politics-at-its-cynical-worst/). They did open up a plant in China, for the Chinese market, but it DID NOT result from any factory closing HERE.


Some of you may recall I have spent the last 5 years campaigning for Ron Paul.

I have never been a giant fan of Obama but I am quite fond of factual information, and that is not something that you will find coming from the Right.

You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. You're definitely not entitled to your own definition of facts, and the methods used to discover and obtain facts are not only not in dispute, but are responsible for your lifestyle whether you know it or not. Respect it. Stop feeding into bull**** because it fits your agenda.

You want to talk about Obama, or Romney, or anyone else, let's go. Point by point. You better have Google handy.

[NikFu S.]

Oh, by the way, you might want to see this, first.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/10/27/gop-rigging-elections-for-romney/ (CN: Santorum won the GOP Primary)

And read this.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2012/10/how-i-lost-faith-in-the-pro-life-movement.html (CN: Why "Pro-Lifers" are jumping ship. I personally met a few.)

[jetboy]

Isn't there a political subforum where you can go about his?

Some of us are not american and live in socialist and communist countries. We gladly pay taxes and submit to other **** and life is generally great here. Your ranting about how awful america has become with Obama is, I'm sorry to say, making me tired.

This is why I don't read the political forum.

And why threads like this belong there.

Enjoy your great cars, too ;)

[wdb]

Use popular vote to assign electoral collage. No more winner takes all "battleground states".
Each candidate should receive how ever many electors there % earned them, this is how the state of Maine does it, and all other should also. Maine assigns electoral votes in a two-level process.

They award one electoral vote per congressional district to the winner of the popular vote in that district.
They award two electoral votes to the winner of the statewide count.

My biggest problem with that method is congressional district gerrymandering. State government officials fiddle around with congressional district borders to favor members of their party. Take a look at this map to see what I'm talking about. It's unbelievable, like a Pollock painting. Zoom in on my home state of Pennsylvania to see a particularly egregious example.

EDIT: Doh! Forgot to link in the congressional district map. It's here (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/members).

[subi-crosser]

Upon this point all speculative politicians will agree, that the happiness of society is the end of government, as all divines and moral philosophers will agree that the happiness of the individual is the end of man. From this principle it will follow that the form of government which communicates ease, comfort, security, or, in one word, happiness, to the greatest numbers of persons, and in the greatest degree, is the best.

John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776



We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

John Adams, Address to the Military, October 11, 1798

[subi-crosser]

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
― Samuel Adams

[NikFu S.]

Upon this point all speculative politicians will agree, that the happiness of society is the end of government, as all divines and moral philosophers will agree that the happiness of the individual is the end of man. From this principle it will follow that the form of government which communicates ease, comfort, security, or, in one word, happiness, to the greatest numbers of persons, and in the greatest degree, is the best.

John Adams, Thoughts on Government, 1776


We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

John Adams, Address to the Military, October 11, 1798

John Adams was a fairly smart guy (who appears to endorse anarchism), but the fact remains the side you have chosen has been the one doing evil (subjective, I know) and it's time to accept that.

Adams at one point said that Christianity had originally been revelatory, but was being misinterpreted and misused in the service of superstition, fraud, and unscrupulous power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Adams#Religious_views

Think about it. How has the GOP waged war on big government? By becoming it. By enforcing their personal beliefs on the rest of us under the veil of liberation.

Look, I think you are a neat guy, but my dad thinks the same things you do and I look him in the eye and say the exact same thing. You've been taken for a ride by people who pretend to stand for the ideals you hold.
They are not your friends, they do not care about you. Liberals, moderates, progressives, they give a **** about you and most other people who aren't trying to screw them over.

[dbarnblatt]

Look, I think you are a neat guy, but my dad thinks the same things you do and I look him in the eye and say the exact same thing. You've been taken for a ride by people who pretend to stand for the ideals you hold.
They are not your friends, they do not care about you. Liberals, moderates, progressives, they give a **** about you and most other people who aren't trying to screw them over.

It is amusing to me that many who are upset after this election really have no idea what socialism is nor do they really know what the affordable healthcare act is and how it works. My dad as well falls into this category.

They are simply told that socialism is "X" and they buy it... lock, stock, and barrel.

[NikFu S.]

The problem is trust.

Not that there isn't enough, but there is too much.

The more people you trust, the more people will lead you astray.

Trust no one, challenge/question everything. It's the only true way to be independent.

[Landshark]

It is amusing to me that many who are upset after this election really have no idea what socialism is nor do they really know what the affordable healthcare act is and how it works. My dad as well falls into this category.

They are simply told that socialism is "X" and they buy it... lock, stock, and barrel.

sweet. i'm quitting my job (i feel stressed), and you can send me half your paycheck.

[dbarnblatt]

sweet. i'm quitting my job (i feel stressed), and you can send me half your paycheck.

Quoted... thanks for that. I can rest my case.

[Landshark]

Quoted... thanks for that. I can rest my case.

...and i can rest while i collect government handouts.

why don't you explain to us what socialism REALLY is then, Karl?

[dbarnblatt]

...and i can rest while i collect government handouts.

why don't you explain to us what socialism REALLY is then, Karl?

Hey, don't call me Karl, I'm a capitalist. I'm just disappointed that the right leaning people are told that our county is becoming socialist when that is not the case. But they all yell it out and grit their teeth. The word "socialist" has been thrown around these past few months with no regard to what it really means or what it really is. Talk to my Grandfather from Eastern Europe about what Socialism is and how we are nowhere near, not even close, to what it is.

Stop playing dumb.

[Landshark]

The word "socialist" has been thrown around these past few months with no regard to what it really means or what it really is. Talk to my Grandfather from Eastern Europe about what Socialism is and how we are nowhere near, not even close, to what it is.

Stop playing dumb.



are we Communist Soviet Union? no.
would our current president like us to be? probably.

“When you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”
- Barry Obama

[icingdeath88]

The problem is trust.

Not that there isn't enough, but there is too much.

The more people you trust, the more people will lead you astray.

Trust no one, challenge/question everything. It's the only true way to be independent.

http://www.boreme.com/posting.php?id=33931#.UJ1qD8XoQip

To paraphrase: There aren't enough hours in the day to question everything. QUestion things that are important to you.

[sunvalleyray]

I totally agree, great points. Read article by David Stockman, former budget director under President Reagan, views on Mitt Romney.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10/14/david-stockman-mitt-romney-and-the-bain-drain.html

Ray

[DiabloScoobyru]

I usually refrain from political disussions, but after reading through this thread I feel I have to weigh in with my 2 cents:

The fact of the matter is that the last 2 elections (at the very least) have both been failures. Each time, its come down to the lesser of 2 evils/idiots/asshats (ad nauseum) paradox. I'm sure most of you know the old saying, so I leave it at that. Regardless who wins, neither of them are really worth a damn, and they are both still evil/idiots/asshats.

The problem isn't just the electoral college. The problem is, the entire system is broken. It has become a for profit 2 party system funded by large corporations to further their best interests, and not the independent democratic system looking out for our (the people's) freedoms and interests that our founding fathers envisioned. Its one giant popularity contest.

The only way it is going to change? Restructure the entire system. Stop the large corporations from essentially "buying votes", open up avenues for other parties/candidates to campaign (case in point, Gary Johnson was barred from debating Romney/Obama just because he was 3rd party), and people actually need to start voting their CONSCIENCE and not the popular choice. Think for your damn selves for once.

Of course, seeing as I classify myself as Libertarian (since it is the closest fit), your opinions may vary.

As for the responses regarding socialism, free handouts, etc: I'm leaving that one alone. Plenty I could say, but I choose not to.

edit to add: Dollars to donuts, with the results of this election, things aren't going to end well. History does have a strange and uncanny way of repeating itself, and something about a second term for Mr. Obama doesn't sit well with me (hell, I wasn't happy about the first term, nor did I vote for him but he was the lesser of 2 evils). As far as I'm concerned, he is not my president and I am glad I separated from the military when I was younger.

[Green1995SVX]

It is amusing to me that many who are upset after this election really have no idea what socialism is nor do they really know what the affordable healthcare act is and how it works.

This is so incredibly true. Somebody I'm friends with on Facebook posted something to the effect of "How can we make it through 4 more years of Obama? He has already ruined my life!" (I'm paraphrasing and also left out his use of the "N Word") When I asked how Obama ruined his life, he responded that Obama made him buy health insurance and he cant afford it.

I didn't realize people were so uninformed, especially with being so vocal about their dissatisfaction with this administration. I've always been very careful to know what I'm talking about before getting involved in a political debate, and it seems like there are some conservatives who consider themselves experts after watching 20 minutes of Fox News.

I'd like to add that I almost never engage in political posts on car forums, but I felt I had something very relevant to say here. Please don't get me wrong. I do respect everybody's political views, but only as long as they're grounded in fact. If you are against Obama because you are pro-life, and against gay marriage, that's great. You are standing up for what you believe in. However, if you're against Obama because you think "Obamacare" is going to create death-panels, and because Obama is a closet muslim, that just makes you an idiot.

[Landshark]

If you are against Obama because you are pro-life, and against gay marriage, that's great. You are standing up for what you believe in. However, if you're against Obama because you think "Obamacare" is going to create death-panels, and because Obama is a closet muslim, that just makes you an idiot.


i'm against Obama because (among other things), Obamacare is going to affect the way my wife gets treated for Lyme disease. she's suffered from it for almost 10 years, and has been undergoing treatment for the past 5 years after being misdiagnosed many times.

people she corresponds with who also suffer from it have shared that many of their doctors have TOLD THEM DIRECTLY that if Obamacare goes through, they would be unable to continue treatment or would even be closing their practices. these are not rumors, or internet ramblings - i repeat, this comes directly from the mouths of their physicians.

does anybody really believe the federal government is going to do a good job dictating what your doctors can do for your care? get ready to open your wallets for tax hikes, too, because Obama's talk show appearances aren't going to be paying for it. maybe he can win American Idol ....

[Conn SVX]

Last time I looked, a show of hands was voting. More people raise their hands you win. So now if you win the show of hand, but they live in the wrong State they do not count. All you need is to have one person raise their hand to win the State and you are President. 51% of Texas, Calf,Fla,Ohio , etc. go for you and you win. I get 40 states to vote for me I loose. :mad:

[DiabloScoobyru]

Last time I looked, a show of hands was voting. More people raise their hands you win. So now if you win the show of hand, but they live in the wrong State they do not count. All you need is to have one person raise their hand to win the State and you are President. 51% of Texas, Calf,Fla,Ohio , etc. go for you and you win. I get 40 states to vote for me I loose. :mad:

And this is one of the main reasons why the system is broken.

Landshark, I completely understand where you are coming from with the Obamacare issue. I'm in a similar boat with health problems, and its a fight to even get the care I need now. I shudder to think how it will be if/when Obamacare does get passed (last I had heard was that the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional and it was struck down). Its taken 2.5 years for me to even get the diagnoses I have now.

[svxcess]

Did Romney even have a chance? He got the same percentage of votes as Reagan did (but not the 49 state landslide)

http://washingtonexaminer.com/romney-wins-white-vote-by-same-margin-as-reagan-did-in-1980-landslide/article/2512819#.UJ7mIGfsbjM

Most polls consider Reagan the best president since WW2 (but that's another thread)

.

[benebob]

Did Romney even have a chance? He got the same percentage of votes as Reagan did (but not the 49 state landslide)

http://washingtonexaminer.com/romney-wins-white-vote-by-same-margin-as-reagan-did-in-1980-landslide/article/2512819#.UJ7mIGfsbjM

Most polls consider Reagan the best president since WW2 (but that's another thread)

.


Gotta little more flavors to choose from in the population these days.:lol:

[dcarrb]

I'm always curious why folks would rather dismantle social services than FIX social services.

We'll always have to deal with a sorry lot who know how to game the system, from Wall Street-types who enrich themselves at the country's peril down to able-bodied deadbeats who haven't worked for an honest day's pay in their lives. (I submit that the former are much more costly to the rest of us than the latter, but that's another story.)

There's a homeless shelter and food pantry next door to my office (this in a mostly rural exurban area, not some urban southside). I just saw six kids boarding a school bus outside this place. The banner headline on the front page of yesterday's local paper reads, "Food bank facing critical situation." And no, there aren't any Escalades parked out front.

Where are the fathers of these children? Are they paying child support?

Rather than perpetuating the "welfare Cadillac" myth or carping about the horrors of "socialism," we might fare better by addressing the root causes of poverty in this country: Ignorance, greed, substance abuse, and the erosion of core social values. Anybody seen the high school dropout rate for your state lately? A minority of these kids will be equipped to contribute to society in any meaningful way, and one way or another, those who do will have pay for that.

As to medical care, a growing number (patients, or customers?) are being priced out, period. A major medical condition can be financially ruinous to anyone. One way to make care more affordable for everyone is to spread the costs among the largest possible group. Let's say, everyone. This isn't a radical concept, yet we're determined to be the last nation on earth to adopt the idea. I know; it's that scary word: "Socialized" medicine.

dcb

[Landshark]

One way to make care more affordable for everyone is to spread the costs among the largest possible group. Let's say, everyone. This isn't a radical concept, yet we're determined to be the last nation on earth to adopt the idea. I know; it's that scary word: "Socialized" medicine.

dcb


ask Canada how well that's working out. :lol:

wait over a year for a hip replacement? overflowing emergency rooms? sounds like a great system.

[Hocrest]

ask Canada how well that's working out. :lol:

wait over a year for a hip replacement? overflowing emergency rooms?
Sounds just like our system, but ours has the added benefit of crippling bills and bankruptcy.

Our current system is not right, and the proposed Obamacare is not right, but to argue that we shouldn't work to fix what we have because Canada is broken is not right either.

[dcarrb]

I claim no data nor do I know any Canadians, but do have a sneaking suspicion that for every horror story about healthcare in Canada there are probably 100 Canadians who would have it no other way. (Pretty much the same with doctors and hospitals here, isn't it?) So maybe you can get a hip replacement in this country lickety-split if you're well-insured or wealthy. But if you've lost your major medical because you got laid off, or due to a pre-existing condition, good luck to you.

I don't have any answers, but I do know that most of us who consider ourselves among the middle class in this country aren't as many paydays removed from bread lines and free clinics as we'd like to believe.

dcb