Concerning the Movie About Islam

[SilverSpear]

Since I am living in this part of the world I am feeling the effect more and more. Muslims are extremely sensitive towards anything affecting negatively their religion.

As you guys are witnessing, the revolutions worldwide. This will not pass peacefully and the US government is literally making a large enemy out of the Muslim countries, some of them used to be allies and friends.

This is not smart. I know there is freedom of speech in the US, but for this specific subject, there should be limits. Making 3 billion people angry, most of them even kamikaze about it... Is just something to avoid by my book.

The best thing to do, is to ask a prominent Muslim representative to review the facts of this movie and approve it before the release...

[Landshark]

yes, let's bend over backwards for these idiots still living in the dark ages.


http://www.dailyhaha.com/_pics/behead.jpg

[Lookin4SVX]

Some guys make a movie and the entire Muslim world goes crazy anti west..
When some Muslim goes crazy and blows something up, they tell us its just a lone person or a small group and not to hate all Muslims..
Personally I think Muslims should grow a thicker skin.. Its a stupid movie..
I don't care if your prophet is not supposed to be shown, change the channel bro, but no.. instead they attack a US embassies.
They are lucky we didn't turn their cities into glass. Attacking an embassy is the same as attacking the US. We have bombed nations for doing far less...

In a perfect world... We would not be occupying Muslim nations and trying to force democracy on them.
We would let them do as they please and openly trade with them. Let them run their county as they want. Let them live as they want..

Unfortunately in 1970's when the US stopped converting dollars into gold, OPEC and the PetroDollar was created, all of this was set into motion.
You are watching the fall of a superpower, we must put in puppet democracies and dictators and give billions in foreign aid...
Just to make sure that people must use dollars to buy oil from the major suppliers..
If not the US economy would collapse as its currency would be back by nothing buy debt..

My gut tells me this current Muslim uprising is just more CIA black ops.
Got to keep stirring the pot.. fueling the fire.. we must take over.. they are violent.. its all just more weapons of mass distraction..
All this makes me sick..

[bwb3]

Let's riot guys!

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee274/gbrandner/s-SUPER-MARIE-O-large640_zpsda620bd4.jpg

On a more serious note, one news agency today (Opinion article) suggested that an all out war in the Middle East would be that best thing for the USA. Not sure I understand that train of thought.

Gene

[Wikedjuggalo]

So, a group of people make a movie and its viewed as the opinion of a nation? I honestly could give a **** less about peoples religious choices, but why does the Muslim community think all of the US etc, is behind what is portrayed in this movie?

The violence is not helping the Muslim religion, instead its pushing it back further. Look at France and Australia, they are not allowing protest because of their violent nature. Advocating murder because of someones words is not something that should be allowed in the 21st century.

And asking a Muslim official to review material before its released is crazy. We already have enough control over things. Next we'd have to appeal to any and all groups of people before a forum of media is released.

[Landshark]

Movie about Muslims being violent ***holes?

I can't say they are changing anyone's opinion.

[wohnson89]

I usually don’t chime in on this part of the forum, but here goes nothing...

I don’t believe the guy that made the video was beyond his rights at all. Freedom of speech was one of the very ideals this country was founded on. In England if someone spoke out against the king, he had a good chance of being put in prison. So when this country was founded, freedom of speach was integral to the workings of the new system of government in the Americas.

As Americans we wouldn’t know how to cope with less freedom of speech, and honestly we don’t think about how blessed we are to have such a right. If an act was put in place that forced the people to tip-toe around and be politically correct about everything, it would mean that the government would have to monitor what everyone was saying just so that someone wouldn’t be offended. This would cause this country to turn into a military police state. And that goes against the very essence of the constitution. Freedom.

People have the right to say anything they want, but they need to have enough sense to know what to say and not to say. There is no doubt in my mind that this guy was stupid in doing what he did, but I don’t think it was lawfully wrong at all. If Muslims proclaim that ala is the one true god then why are they so worried about some video put out by this “infidel”? If Christians threatened to kill someone and start a war every time they were attacked in the media, there would be no more people in America.

It seems to me that there will always be chaos in the Middle East. They are like a bunch of fifth graders playing the blame game when they have no one to blame but themselves. I hate to say this but the one good thing about all those dictators that just got taken out of power is that they all controlled the Muslim brotherhood. It still gets me that through all their attacking the of the US embassies is that we are still sending them aid. I think that if we pulled out all the aid we are giving them and stop training the police so that they can kill us, maybe it would have an effect on them. People that radical cannot have treaties made between them and US. It is like the Indian wars of the 1700 and 1800’s. We would make peace with one group which had no authority and then expect all of them to abide by it. The ones that signed it might, but there is always going to be some rebel. I think the only thing that they will respond to is tough love. Right now we are drawing lines in the sand and daring them not to cross it or else, then when they cross that line we do the same thing again.

I don’t know how to fix this situation, but I pray our next president does.

*steps off soapbox*

[Sean486]

“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg

[LetItSnow]

If we want to pin violence on Muslims, why not identify all violent actions done in the name of religion? Anyone heard of The Crusades? Surely, Christ's followers are a bunch of bloodthirsty savages! "Oh, that wasn't us... It was some other guys."

Regarding Freedom of Speech: That's not an unlimited say-what-you-want card. Investigating the limits might show that our government has probably spent a lot of time discussing whether to squelch this thing. The last deciding factor is that they'd rather the violence be in foreign countries from foreign citizens than by Americans on American soil.

Considering the violence that has erupted and that the whole country has the burden of responsibility on its shoulders as a result of one dope's expression, no one has the right to complain about it unless they're willing to argue that kicking a beehive shouldn't have any repercussions. Your Freedom of Speech allows this guy to make a movie that hits a long known sensitive spot.

But you're ready to fight to the death to defend his right, right? Oh, wait - that's some other guys, too. :rolleyes:

[Landshark]

If we want to pin violence on Muslims, why not identify all violent actions done in the name of religion? Anyone heard of The Crusades?

yeah, that was 1000 years ago. most of the world has become civilized since then, but some still wipe their asses with their hands and murder their daughters for family shame.

Surely, Christ's followers are a bunch of bloodthirsty savages! "Oh, that wasn't us... It was some other guys.

a Jesus cartoon isn't going to cause riots and murders, though. ;)


But you're ready to fight to the death to defend his right, right? Oh, wait - that's some other guys, too. :rolleyes:

i was in the military, so no - that wasn't "some other guys". :rolleyes:

[LetItSnow]

most of the world has become civilized since then, but some still wipe their asses with their hands and murder their daughters for family shame.
...and we still share the planet with them.

a Jesus cartoon isn't going to cause riots and murders, though. ;)
A <Jesus movie (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=passion+of+the+christ+protest&oq=passion+of+the+christ+protest)> caused a good share of agitation, though.

i was in the military, so no - that wasn't "some other guys". :rolleyes:
To most folks, military personnel are "some other guys". Try to keep my text in scope? My point is, your casual civilian is perfectly ok with our Freedom of Speech being protected, even to the extent that it's being used here, so long as it's not his or her own blood on the line.

The question you have to ask yourself is, how do you feel about your Freedom of Speech being used to incite violence against your country and fellow citizens?

Me? Not a fan.

[Landshark]

...and we still share the planet with them.

yeah, we should apologize for being Americans.

A <Jesus movie (https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=passion+of+the+christ+protest&oq=passion+of+the+christ+protest)> caused a good share of agitation, though.

protests and agitation ≠ riots and murder


To most folks, military personnel are "some other guys". Try to keep my text in scope? My point is, your casual civilian is perfectly ok with our Freedom of Speech being protected, even to the extent that it's being used here, so long as it's not his or her own blood on the line.

that's why we have a military, and people who WILL put their blood on the line.

The question you have to ask yourself is, how do you feel about your Freedom of Speech being used to incite violence against your country and fellow citizens?

again, let's just give the Islamic extremists anything they want. don't hurt their feelings, send them money, etc. something something pussification of America. :rolleyes:




Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.


Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.


Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.


When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.

Here's how it works:


As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:


United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%

Canada -- Muslim 1.9%

China -- Muslim 1.8%

Italy -- Muslim 1.5%

Norway -- Muslim 1.8%


At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:


Denmark -- Muslim 2%

Germany -- Muslim 3.7%

United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%

Spain -- Muslim 4%

Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%


From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:


France -- Muslim 8%

Philippines -- 5%

Sweden -- Muslim 5%

Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%

The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%

Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%


At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law.

The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.


When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections in:


Guyana -- Muslim 10%

India -- Muslim 13.4%

Israel -- Muslim 16%

Kenya -- Muslim 10%

Russia -- Muslim 15%


After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:


Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%


At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:


Bosnia -- Muslim 40%

Chad -- Muslim 53.1%

Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%


From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:


Albania -- Muslim 70%

Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%

Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%

Sudan -- Muslim 70%


After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:


Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%

Egypt -- Muslim 90%

Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%

Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%

Iran -- Muslim 98%

Iraq -- Muslim 97%

Jordan -- Muslim 92%

Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%

Pakistan -- Muslim 97%

Palestine -- Muslim 99%

Syria -- Muslim 90%

Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%

Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%

United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%


100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:


Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%

Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%

Somalia -- Muslim 100%

Yemen -- Muslim 100%


Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.


'Before I was nine, I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, 'The Haj'


It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim

religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.


Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world's population by the end of this century


Me? Not a fan.

start growing your beard and welcome your new overlords. :lol:

[LetItSnow]

I didn't take you to be the sort to use the word "fettering", and <it seems you're not (http://www.survivalmonkey.com/threads/islam-in-a-nutshell.35002/)>. What you know beyond Copy and Paste remains to be seen!

To not goof on Islam seems not too different from, say, not kicking a pit bull downtown, or not lighting your house on fire. It's not pussification; it's common sense. There's no sacrifice there. Ought not produce useless fictional works? Short of the end of freedom.

[svxfiles]

yeah, we should apologize for being Americans.



protests and agitation ≠ riots and murder




that's why we have a military, and people who WILL put their blood on the line.



again, let's just give the Islamic extremists anything they want. don't hurt their feelings, send them money, etc. something something pussification of America. :rolleyes:




Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.


Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.


Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.


When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.

Here's how it works:


As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:


United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%

Canada -- Muslim 1.9%

China -- Muslim 1.8%

Italy -- Muslim 1.5%

Norway -- Muslim 1.8%


At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:


Denmark -- Muslim 2%

Germany -- Muslim 3.7%

United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%

Spain -- Muslim 4%

Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%


From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:


France -- Muslim 8%

Philippines -- 5%

Sweden -- Muslim 5%

Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%

The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%

Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%


At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law.

The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.


When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections in:


Guyana -- Muslim 10%

India -- Muslim 13.4%

Israel -- Muslim 16%

Kenya -- Muslim 10%

Russia -- Muslim 15%


After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:


Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%


At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:


Bosnia -- Muslim 40%

Chad -- Muslim 53.1%

Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%


From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:


Albania -- Muslim 70%

Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%

Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%

Sudan -- Muslim 70%


After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:


Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%

Egypt -- Muslim 90%

Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%

Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%

Iran -- Muslim 98%

Iraq -- Muslim 97%

Jordan -- Muslim 92%

Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%

Pakistan -- Muslim 97%

Palestine -- Muslim 99%

Syria -- Muslim 90%

Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%

Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%

United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%


100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:


Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%

Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%

Somalia -- Muslim 100%

Yemen -- Muslim 100%


Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.


'Before I was nine, I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, 'The Haj'


It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim

religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.


Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world's population by the end of this century




start growing your beard and welcome your new overlords. :lol:

THIS is "why we keep Landshark around"!

[Landshark]

I didn't take you to be the sort to use the word "fettering", and <it seems you're not (http://www.survivalmonkey.com/threads/islam-in-a-nutshell.35002/)>. What you know beyond Copy and Paste remains to be seen!

i'm not taking credit for the anything after my replies to you.

To not goof on Islam seems not too different from, say, not kicking a pit bull downtown, or not lighting your house on fire. It's not pussification; it's common sense.

where do you draw the line? just let them have their Sharia law in the U.S., so they won't start grumbling? i say if they can't take a joke, **** 'em.

i don't believe all Islamic people are conniving murderers, but the religion lends itself to easy manipulation by its leaders. i'm tired of all the apologizing and placating.

[Lookin4SVX]

THIS is "why we keep Landshark around"!

What, to copy paste some anti-muslim trash he found on a website?

How about this, the reason they cannot reach a peaceful 100% Muslim state is because the US military occupy all those countries..
The CIA spent the last 50 years putting in puppet dictators, arming and training their people to hate others, supporting wars with non Muslims to keep the region destabilized and easier to control...

BTW, quoting someone that I have on ignore, simply to put what they say in quotes so that I can see it, then using a I line I wrote to further antagonize me.. Is really poor forum etiquette.

Maybe it is me that should leave this forum...

[Landshark]

Maybe it is me that should leave this forum...


http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/Landshark/27196.jpg



OH THE DRAMA! :lol:

[NikFu S.]

I don't understand what's the problem here?

Freedom of speech rules, **** everyone who disagrees, especially if they are religious nutbags with a death wish (no offense to non-nutty religious bags out there, but **** you just the same if you do take offense).

[Landshark]

I don't understand what's the problem here?

Freedom of speech rules, **** everyone who disagrees, especially if they are religious nutbags with a death wish (no offense to non-nutty religious bags out there, but **** you just the same if you do take offense).


the problem is offending someone is now as bad as murder in this pussified society. the worst thing you can do nowadays is hurt someone's feelings. see all the chapped asses on this site, for example.

[NikFu S.]

People should take personal responsibility in not getting their asses chapped.

[Landshark]

People should take personal responsibility in not getting their asses chapped.

agreed, +1.

i has a thick, leathery hide.

[svxfiles]

What, to copy paste some anti-muslim trash he found on a website?

How about this, the reason they cannot reach a peaceful 100% Muslim state is because the US military occupy all those countries..
The CIA spent the last 50 years putting in puppet dictators, arming and training their people to hate others, supporting wars with non Muslims to keep the region destabilized and easier to control... BTW, quoting someone that I have on ignore, simply to put what they say in quotes so that I can see it, then using a I line I wrote to further antagonize me.. Is really poor forum etiquette.

Maybe it is me that should leave this forum...

I am sorry.
I know that someone said "Why do we keep Landshark around?",
but I honestly thought it was funny, and have no idea of who originally posted it.:confused:
Its 1:00 in the morning and I just left the garage.
I know Landshark, and I like him.:o
Everyone is different!:)
Some are downright weird!:eek:
A troubled but VERY wise man once said;
"Can't we all just get along?"

[jetboy]

Silverspear,

my family is also..ahem..oriented towards the middle east, not so far from your country, perhaps just south of where you are situated :) I also did middle east studies in uni, so I'll have some credibility there too, thanks.

I think you are wrong.

I see a lot of piss poor people, where most can't read, have no money, no job or bad job, no or bad school, children of dictatorship, never lived in a real democracy, no future, no hope... make a riot out of anything. Oh, are they muslim? Ok, I guess they're that, too. Most arabs are, after all. But more than anything, they're poor and oppressed.

In my country (even in my town), and most european countries, there seem to be three groups of muslims at the moment:

1) The ones who do not voice anything about this matter in public (the big majority)
2) The religious who voice peaceful and compelling complaints (your usual mosque crowd)
3) The violent protesters (a small gang)

Interestingly, group 2 is totally identical in rhetorics to the organisations and people labouring for christian or jewish values. It's all peaceful and sensible and just occationally do they have to say that homosexuality is a sin and abortion will send you to hell.

Group 1 is like the rest of Norway except a better tan.

Group 3 are identical to the crowd protesting in the middle east. Dropped out of school, got involved with crime, maybe don't know the language.. no future, no hope. Same problems, different place.

So before everone stops insulting anyone, please take a look at who is on the barricades and why? I agree that the film is totally idiotic and stupid but it was made for one purpose only and that was to trigger the poor and miserable in the arab countries. Like in every other country, their complete lack of education makes them very easy to sway either way. Societies where honour and religion substitute dignity are not competitive on this planet since the late 1800s.

I don't know how things developed but apparently in Indonesia there were only peaceful protests last I heard.

[icingdeath88]

http://i.imgur.com/jNFqw.gif

[jetboy]

Btw, my point was....

It's the way your countries work that's the problem, not islam or muslims.

[sunvalleyray]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/24/opinion/keller-the-satanic-video.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=edit_th_20120924

Ray

[bwb3]

Thanks for sharing Sunvalleyray. A lot of truth being reported there.
Gene

[NikFu S.]

I agree, good article.

[Huskymaniac]

There is a lot of fail in this thread. Some good...but a lot of fail.

Talking politics or religion on a message board is futile due to the lack of time to type what really needs to be said and the complexity of the subject. And then, in some cases, you have stupid people trying to talk about something they can't possibly comprehend.

[Landshark]

There is a lot of fail in this thread. Some good...but a lot of fail.

Talking politics or religion on a message board is futile due to the lack of time to type what really needs to be said and the complexity of the subject. And then, in some cases, you have stupid people trying to talk about something they can't possibly comprehend.


thank.

great post, and god bless.

[NikFu S.]

There is a lot of fail in this thread. Some good...but a lot of fail.

Talking politics or religion on a message board is futile due to the lack of time to type what really needs to be said and the complexity of the subject. And then, in some cases, you have stupid people trying to talk about something they can't possibly comprehend.

Time? Time is the one thing that equalizes people on the internet. Anyone can take as much time as they need to draft an argument, cite sources, and consider rebuttals before ever submitting a post. Public debates where speaking time is handled by a moderator and runs less than a day, minutes-long news casts, and variety hour opinion-based talk shows are where time is a limiting factor.

I don't really believe in stupid people. I live with a person who has an IQ that is nearly half mine, yet when she applies herself she comprehends things well enough. The reason why it seems people are stupid is because it is rare for anyone to define their argument before they present it, so it is subject to various interpretations that can never be resolved.

[jetboy]

Politics and religion and, I guess all topics, debated online all fall prey to polarization. It has been observed and documented since the dawn of the internets.

I think OP is completely justified in posting worries but then he also has to tolerate that everyone doesn't agree. Various messages have been sent, obviously. Some downright racist, some just not what he was looking for.

SilverSpear, there is no love here for your idea, sorry :) The entire point of freedom of speech and democracy is NOT running anything by the holy fathers before it's released into public. Some day, I'm sure your country (which I think will become a jewel again when Assad influence goes away) will enjoy the same rights. Err, if you're Lebanese, taht is.

[SilverSpear]

Ok, I threw the bomb and looked the other way and waited for your comments to pour over the thread. I just read them all and please bear with me throughout my reply, especially the ones answering Jetboy’s comments. Hope you guys take it in a calm way… remember, we are joined by the love of a unique car ;)

To start with (and this is also information for new comers) , Landshark posted some figures about the Muslim rates in each country. Lebanon is at near 60%. To be exact, Muslim Sunnis at 30.5%, Shia’s at 29.5%, Christians at 35% and Druzes at 5%. I had to divide Sunnis and Shias because they like each other as do Jews and Palestinians [SARCASM].

Let us be totally frank and open in this, in the US people have issues between black and white, even though they never admit it. Please do not tell me that even though your best friend is white and you are black, you wouldn’t have that 0.001% negative feelings about the issue… right? We have the same thing here, I am Christian myself, and most of my friends are Muslims. But deep down inside, I would lean a bit towards a Christian over a Muslim, as you would probably pick someone of your same color over the other.

Point of the above, consider me as an observer of the Middle East situation who has lived and witnessed by his own experiences the bombings, civil wars, Syrian invasions, Israeli invasions on his country. I am no kamikaze Muslim or a Crusader or even a deep Christian believer. I would tend to use better judgement to discriminate right from wrong.

As you guys laugh on the idea of religion being the center of conflict in this part of the world, we laugh too on the issue that skin color is the conflict in the “civilized” part of the world. I lived in Qatar for 5 years and made good friends among its native Qataris. Of them a particular bunch of 3 guys, wealthy, and have nothing to do except enjoying themselves. I should point out one of many friendly incidents involving skin color. They passed by my house one day in a 4 door Mercedes S class and we went to a local mall. Whenever we were leaving, one Qatari with a white skin (owner of the car) threw the keys to the black Qatari and told him: “since you look like a nigga, you are my chauffeur this evening, my bodyguard too and you will have to obey all my commands.” And we all started laughing about it, including the black Qatari.
I think if the case was in the US, the white guy would have been dead by now. Over here it is just stupid…

Pushing the issue further, if I enter to one of your houses and see that you are living in a mess, like a pig and the smell is aweful, do I have the right to beat your *ss because of it? Definitely no. You have your way of life and I have my way of life and the Muslims have their ways of life. I personally laugh at the way rabbis do their hairline, do I have the right to grab the guy and shave his head? No I will respect his beliefs and the way he looks…

With all due respect to Jetboy who is Norwegian with Jewish roots, I think the entire Earth’s problem is revolving around Jews/Palestinians and the Belfor promise. Jetboy, I am sorry man, but the Jews are not peaceful, nor they resort to peaceful solutions. As a matter of fact, our Lebanese experience with them proved they are non-trustworthy and blood-thirsty worse than extremist Muslims. Now I don’t want to start the debate of chicken and egg and more precisely who should occupy the Palestinian/Israeli land, Jews or Palestinians, but I should admit that THE WAY Palestinians are being driven out of their homes is INHUMAN with no regards if they are Christians or Muslims. They are literally living on the streets, most of them given pocket money and a ticket by the Jews to flee the country for good and never return or else they would be driven out by force…

Let us think for a bit… were the Muslims that suicidal before the 1960’s? Have you ever heard of terrorist attacks before these times? I mean before the Jews got backing from the US to drive the Palestinians out of their homes? No. It was the US who created Al Quaeda, it was the US who backed the Jews and fired the Muslim hatred against them and in my opinion it was the US who bombed/caused the bombing of the Mosques in Iraq and erupted a civil war to this day.

Jetboy, one very very good question about the current situation in Syria. If Assad is overthrown, who is the best candidate to assume position in his place? Do you have a name? Or will it just become another Iraq which will eventually extend to Lebanon? Sorry no, I will still prefer Assad for my OWN sake!

Going back to the matters of beliefs and ways of living: According to their religion, Muslims do not believe in a picture of their prophet, and this is sacred to them. Let alone a movie? Well if it was me, I would respect their belief, why mess with it?

I would also like to comment on earlier posts:

“In a perfect world... We would not be occupying Muslim nations and trying to force democracy on them. We would let them do as they please and openly trade with them. Let them run their country as they want. Let them live as they want.. That is absurd…”
Oh come one dude!! Do you really think that the US government is doing this in the name of peace? Really? Let me give it to you directly: Either it is for a strategic location or because of natural resources. Your government doesn’t give a damn about World peace. In fact if there is World peace, your weapons factories would go out of business… Where are the Chemical weapons of Iraq? Where is Peace in Iraq? In Afghanistan? In Libya (well I admit the one good thing you did was overthrowing that maniac off his chair over there). In Iraq is for its natural resources and strategic location near Iran, in Afghanistan is for its resources, Libya for its resources….

“Muslim goes anti west”: Yes because in their belief, the US government should have at least considered finding some sort of compromise with the producer when in fact they simply assigned to him security details. Muslims considered this as US backing that dishonors their beliefs.

“one news agency today (Opinion article) suggested that an all out war in the Middle East would be that best thing for the USA.” Yes that is true.

“It seems to me that there will always be chaos in the Middle East.” Remove the Jews and Palestinians out, and real World peace will prevail.

“a Jesus cartoon isn't going to cause riots and murders, though.” We cherish pictures and movies of Jesus unlike Muslims.

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%
From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%”
Yes, Lebanon passed through this, and cases are here and there… But for Qatar it is wrong. The Emir of Qatar instructed that any persecution towards Christians and others, would be dealt with severely even if the offenders are from the Police. It never happened.

“In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.”
Those are the Muslim extremists that were “born” with the Quaeda. They are 99% Muslim Sunnis in origin (as opposed to Iran’s Shias).

Sorry for the looooooong post, had to relay my ideas as a live observer of the situation and not through articles, books, distorted info (sorry Jetboy, I am never wrong, I am living the situation whereas you are simply reading about it from unreliable sources).

And for those you say that Muslims are never overcoming their backward beliefs, I will tell you this: those beliefs are aged from what? 600 AC? Whereas your Negro/Master (sorry for saying it) or Black/White from…. The beginning of life as recorded?

[Huskymaniac]

Politics and religion and, I guess all topics, debated online all fall prey to polarization. It has been observed and documented since the dawn of the internets.

I think OP is completely justified in posting worries but then he also has to tolerate that everyone doesn't agree. Various messages have been sent, obviously. Some downright racist, some just not what he was looking for.

SilverSpear, there is no love here for your idea, sorry :) The entire point of freedom of speech and democracy is NOT running anything by the holy fathers before it's released into public. Some day, I'm sure your country (which I think will become a jewel again when Assad influence goes away) will enjoy the same rights. Err, if you're Lebanese, taht is.

I never specified who the stupid people were. As such, I never said SilverSpear was one of them nor that I disagreed with him.. The one thing I did say was that it is futile to start a discussion on something this controversial and this complex on a message board. Sure, you can organize your thoughts and write them down but the number of said thoughts on a subject like this should occupy hundreds of pages of a book. There is no way any of us will do that on a message board. Verbal communication is much more efficient and especially if the people in the room are rational.

Those who will be at Reading this year will have A LOT to talk about. So much is about to happen over the next six months. Way more than normally happens over a typical six month span. And the effects will linger for several years.

[icingdeath88]

I never specified who the stupid people were. As such, I never said SilverSpear was one of them nor that I disagreed with him.. The one thing I did say was that it is futile to start a discussion on something this controversial and this complex on a message board. Sure, you can organize your thoughts and write them down but the number of said thoughts on a subject like this should occupy hundreds of pages of a book. There is no way any of us will do that on a message board. Verbal communication is much more efficient and especially if the people in the room are rational.

Those who will be at Reading this year will have A LOT to talk about. So much is about to happen over the next six months. Way more than normally happens over a typical six month span. And the effects will linger for several years.

You have exactly hit on the reasons I am staying out of this conversation, even though I have quite a good perspective and a lot to say.

[NikFu S.]

Sure, you can organize your thoughts and write them down but the number of said thoughts on a subject like this should occupy hundreds of pages of a book. There is no way any of us will do that on a message board. Verbal communication is much more efficient and especially if the people in the room are rational.

I think you have not been to the right message boards. I've started and carried political and religious discussions hundreds of pages long multiple times with testimonials from spectators and participants alike vouching for their quality. I'm not trying to sell myself here, only help make my point that not only can it be done, but it is far more useful as a resource. A verbal lecture or debate will get nothing done unless given by experts on the subject (do you know any?), and you can get the equivalent of a Powerpoint presentation on Youtube if that is what you want, but either way all you can do is take and compare notes, which is what message boards are for anyway.

A resolution can be found pretty easily if the specific problems are stated and addressed logically, reasonably, and specifically.

Problem: Free speech offends people.
Solutions: Observe your local laws regarding speech, or GFYS.

Problem: Muslims are angry.
Solutions: Identify which Muslims are angry, be their friend or don't.

Problem: Religiously motivated attacks.
Solution: Defeat the religion in whole or in part, or tolerate it and sustain a defense.

Problem: Politically motivated attacks.
Solutions: Defeat the ideology in whole or in part, or tolerate it and sustain a defense.


The extremist Muslims draw the line at the ridicule of their prophet. A "proper" American in my opinion, should draw the line at the Right to Ridicule. Freedom takes precedence over taste, class, and respect. I consider myself a very tolerant, progressive humanist, but I recognize the rights of men to exercise liberty, and there exists no public right to censor criticism and ridicule as censorship is an oppressive act (obviously places like the SVXN which are privately owned and operated can censor whatever they wish).

Now, there are many many reasons why people in the Middle East are angry. Some of them do not like our lifestyles. Some of them do not like our occupation. Some, or I would guess most of them do not like our warfare. In the case of this idiotic movie, some do not like the fact that we do not condemn the people who produced and released it to that area. Do I think they should have made the movie? No. I think it is stupid and in poor taste, but nobody has the right to stop them (despite the fact the director is under investigation by the FBI) and we should hold that line if we recognize Constitutional authority (which I do).

I do not think we should go out of our way to appease anyone at the cost of our rights. Nobody has the right to not be offended, but everyone has the right to be rude, and I assume the mental faculty to consider the consequences of their actions.

So I ask again, what is the real problem here? If you are offended, that is YOUR problem, and your only recourse is to exercise the same rights that were flaunted upon you: complain and ***** about how you are offended. Have you done that? Now you are even.



And for those you say that Muslims are never overcoming their backward beliefs, I will tell you this: those beliefs are aged from what? 600 AC? Whereas your Negro/Master (sorry for saying it) or Black/White from…. The beginning of life as recorded?


Overall I like and agree with your post. Racism is still prevalent in U.S. society, which is sad. As a person whom "believes" in the theory of evolution and has an adequate understanding of human ancestry as it is understood by science, I have given up the concept of "race" as it has no part in the science. Homo-sapiens is a species, and I believe all people are capable of the same things to slightly differing degrees.
That said, even I exhibit some "racial" bias, because it is something that has just developed in our culture. I see a lot of black people driving poorly, and comment to my friend about it even though in the back of my mind I know that everyone drives poorly, at some point in their life. Because I am white in this culture, non-white people stick out to me like alien creatures. The emotional part of my brain is curious and judgmental, while the rational part sometimes struggles to keep the emotion in check. The problem is we don't have one culture in the U.S., we have separate demi-cultures in which people of certain-colored skin segregate themselves. Black people are just as much at fault as white people for isolating themselves into their culture bubbles. The demi-cultures themselves aren't the problem, but it's the mentality that by accepting a way of life one somehow becomes superior to others, and this is the real cause of racism in America. We think we are better than everyone else when we are not, and we reject concepts that unravel our culture bubbles for the self-indulgent egotistical snobbery of which they are woven.

[NikFu S.]

There is one more thing I think I should say since it is a bit related.

When I joined the SVXN I knew jack **** about cars (http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13847), and while the board is a great resource, the fact that it is a resource alone is not what taught me anything.

I endured painful ridicule from members here for the assumptions I made and for the poor arguments that I thought were so cleverly written. Some remained silent and allowed me to say ignorant things, but brave few stood up and corrected me, which motivated me to be the person I am today, an obsessive-compulsive fact-checker and political activist.

I have always believed in the right to speech even at my own expense, but it was only when I realized that the criticisms of me were justified that my behavior began to change.

I do believe that despite its poor production quality and offensive nature, the Innocence of Muslims is a fair criticism of Islam, and you should consider its arguments seriously before you condemn it. A rational and reasonable appraisal in the face of overwhelming adversity is the mark of a mature and educated mind.