$36 Replacement ignition coils?

[smc]

Say it aint so! Well it is indeed so. In fact, these coils pump more volts with a longer spark duration than our stock ignition coils to boot!
One catch.. A little bit of fabrication work will be needed. But its nothing the average wrench cant do!

My SVX had the much hated, and apparently never truly solved in the forums, hiccup in the ignition.
Parts upon parts later. I was testing one of the coilpacks for spark by plugging in a spark plug and grounding the plug while running the engine to check for spark. While holding the coil, it shocked the bageezus out of me. Cripes! A bad coil!
Seeing how expensive they were, i began to track down an alternative.
And here it is!
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850500/
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/sum-850500_w.jpg

The summit racing street and strip coil.

These can be remote mounted away from engine heat and vibration. More voltage, longer spark and 8k max rpm.

For spark plug wires, just a simple universal ACCEL kit. # 5040B
Perfect fit.

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxcoil2.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/SVXcoil1.jpg

And with a little luck and relocation / removal of non-vital components, it will look a little something like this :)

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/engine_car.jpg


Install is simple. Cut the two leads to the existing coilpacks, and use the supplied fittings to bolt them to the new coil. You just need to know which wire is + and -.

The spark energy by these coils is astounding! During tests,The spark jumped from the plug 9" to ground. o.O

[Tim]

Subscribed :)

[Sean486]

Wow that's awesome. I like the look when mounted too.

[smc]

Allrighty. Update. Well, seeing that the weather cleared up for a bit. Eg it stopped snowing.. *grumble grumble* I took today and got things wired up. The battery is now located in the trunk with 4 ga. wire run through the cab, out an existing grommet in the drivers wheel well and into the engine bay. Ive removed the radiator overflow tank and it will be replaced with a smaller tank put in the old location of the battery, thus freeing up space on the drivers side wheel well arch.. Ive also removed the windshield wiper fluid tank and plumbed the line from the rear wiper tank, forward to the front windshield wiper squirters. Thus freeing up the passenger side wheel well arch.

Also, i removed the factory fuel filter canister and replaced it with a more compact inline fuel filter.

I have installed 1 new coil just as a tester and an immediate replacement for the burned out factory coil.

For what its worth, my low rpm ignition hiccup is completely gone now!
Its great to have the car back to full power again.

Im looking forward to getting the other 5 coils installed next week.

Pictures to follow tomorrow after work :)

[Subix]

Awesome! Looking forward to the pictures :)

[icingdeath88]

Allrighty. Update. Well, seeing that the weather cleared up for a bit. Eg it stopped snowing.. *grumble grumble* I took today and got things wired up. The battery is now located in the trunk with 4 ga. wire run through the cab, out an existing grommet in the drivers wheel well and into the engine bay. Ive removed the radiator overflow tank and it will be replaced with a smaller tank put in the old location of the battery, thus freeing up space on the drivers side wheel well arch.. Ive also removed the windshield wiper fluid tank and plumbed the line from the rear wiper tank, forward to the front windshield wiper squirters. Thus freeing up the passenger side wheel well arch.

Also, i removed the factory fuel filter canister and replaced it with a more compact inline fuel filter.

I have installed 1 new coil just as a tester and an immediate replacement for the burned out factory coil.

For what its worth, my low rpm ignition hiccup is completely gone now!
Its great to have the car back to full power again.

Im looking forward to getting the other 5 coils installed next week.

Pictures to follow tomorrow after work :)

:) You and I are gonna get along just fine.

Click the battery relocation link in my sig for pics of how I did it.

All the things I bolded are things that I either have been planning to do or have already done. Post some pics!

[smc]

Pictures of the ignition coil install. Just the one for now. Paycheck on friday will allow for 5 additional more. Also a few quick pictures of the battery relocation, and my hood louvers to reduce the under hood temps.

Here you can see the space that was freed up by the removal of the overflow tank and canister style fuel filter. Oddly enough, the new inline filter flows better than the old style. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-562-1/
Just that swap alone gives the car a bit more get up and go. And the old filter that I removed only had 2k miles on it. I was surprised.


http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods006.jpg

Originally I had fabricated up aluminum mounting brackets that would act as a flat platform to mount the coils to. However it seems that they will be more compact and in all honesty look better, simply mounted using the supplied mounting hardware directly to the well.
Three coils will fit perfectly in the orientation.

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods004.jpg

The engine bay

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods005.jpg

The battery relocation. Fyi.. do NOT get this relocation kit from summit.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRG-6279/

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods002.jpg

I dont know WTF Mr. Gasket was thinking when designing this kit, but there is no way in hell it will work. The battery clamp bracket is too wide for the battery box to secure the battery. It mounts to the box itself to hold it down. But the box is so flimsy that it bows out with even the slightest amount of tension. So i dont know what the heck they expect you to secure your battery with. I guess just let it flop around in there. The mounting bolts have thread on them for miles... below where you would normally bolt something. If your mounting surface is directly below the box (duh..) then you will need to create a 2" spacer in order to not run out of thread on the bolt while tightening it down.
Lastly, the top strap is directly in the center of the box. How the hell am i supposed to bolt this thing down? Drill holes in the strap to mount into the floor?

Again.. What the hell?


Any way. A few pictures of the louvers. A DRASTIC drop in under hood temps. To the point that after 10 minutes of 120 mph driving, the intake was still cool to the touch.
This was more or less a proof of concept install. There is a area of low pressure on the hood where i mounted the louvers. I noticed this after rain on the hood remained static there while at speed on the highway.
This was also proven after the install when on a cold night i hosed down the engine while hot thus creating copious amounts of steam. I shut the hood. A fair amount of steam escaped. Once I started driving, steam was sucked out of the bay Far more rapidly than at a stop.
This will be refined a bit more with a fiberglass hood in the future.

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods008.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods007.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods003.jpg

[fzftw]

Nice work sir! Is that white foxbody vert yours too?

[icingdeath88]

Did you look through my thread on battery relocation? It will help: http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=58723

Also, sup with the driver's seat? Looks cool.

That's a really clean engine bay. Clean car overall.

[Chuckls]

Pictures of the ignition coil install. Just the one for now. Paycheck on friday will allow for 5 additional more. Also a few quick pictures of the battery relocation, and my hood louvers to reduce the under hood temps.

Here you can see the space that was freed up by the removal of the overflow tank and canister style fuel filter. Oddly enough, the new inline filter flows better than the old style. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-562-1/
Just that swap alone gives the car a bit more get up and go. And the old filter that I removed only had 2k miles on it. I was surprised.


http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods006.jpg



I see that it only has one line running to it..the stock one uses two lines..What did you do to the other fuel line nipple on the block?

[smc]

*chuckles* Yeah, the ol' fox is mine. She's been a loyal companion from the day we got it back in 93. But, she's falling apart. I thought about rebuilding her, but its just not worth it. So the engine, trans and rear suspension are going into a ford focus :D Muahahaha!

Yes, I did indeed read your page on the battery swap! Good info! I cheated with mine. Just a junction block for the positive cable to tie into the old existing positive. The ground on the battery leads to a bumper bolt under the rubber grommets, and the stock ground lead is bolted to the front bumper bolt. easy peasy. Also, the positive cable fits perfectly through an existing grommet in the wheel well where the airbag sensor wire is routed. This way i didnt have to go though the firewall.
The drivers seat.. I ditched the factory one to shed weight. Damn near 70 lbs. Its insane. I picked up this one from summit off the display sale section as a temporary seat and also to see if it will fit my co-driver. He's 6'4" 320lbs. With this seat sitting a good 4" lower than stock, his head still nearly hits the sunroof brackets. Ill be honest, Its the most uncomfortable seat I have ever sat in. I want to get my fixed back momo's in there asap. But in order to do that ill need to mount up the harness seatbelts. In order to do that ill need to get the cage fabricated in order to get the proper alignment on the belts. Also ill have to fabricate new floor mounts etc etc. My co-drivers seat will need to basically be mounted strait to the floor. Funny, it was never an issue in the wrx. Even with the cage o.O Im need to be creative in order to get this cage as tight as possible and still be in spec for Rally America.

As for the battery, Ill secure it better when i remove the spare tire well and plate it over.

The stock filter has only one line. The inlet from the tank and the outlet to the fuel rails. The other two are just tank returns. ... At least thats the way it is on the 96. ? Hmm. I dont recall how it was plumbed on my old 92.

Anywho, thanks for the comments fellas. The engine bay is always clean. I hate working on the car and having crud falling in my face. Also i can keep an eye on leaky seals :p

[Chuckls]

The stock filter has only one line. The inlet from the tank and the outlet to the fuel rails. The other two are just tank returns. ... At least thats the way it is on the 96. ? Hmm. I dont recall how it was plumbed on my old 92.


It's the same on my 92. I see it has two lines going from the top of the filter, to the block. I see ONE line going to the block with your inline. What did you do to the other nipple?

[smc]

Off topic here.. But this is my old rally car. And is more or less what ill be fabricating for the SVX. With a few updates on the cage for 2012 regulations.

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/714int8.jpg
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/714int14.jpg
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/714int17.jpg
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/714int18.jpg

[smc]

What did you do to the other nipple?

:WTF:


Heh. Sorry. I only had the one line that was in the filter. Ill go take a picture and post it up in a few minutes.

[smc]

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods013.jpg
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods014.jpg
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods015.jpg

[svxfiles]

Nice top mounts!;)
Brake fluid is low.

[Chuckls]

Gotcha....I'm gonna take a look at mine in a bit. I think I'll be doing that.

So any benefits? I know you said better flow and more get-up, but could you explain?

[smc]

Nice top mounts!;)
Brake fluid is low.

Thanks. 2007 STI coilovers. Ill do a writeup on them soon. Its really just a few hour procedure. I dont know why people spend such big bucks on custom coilovers for the svx when all you have to do is drill 3 holes on the top mounts.

heh, I suppose its time to get new pads on the brakes! Thats would bring it right back up :)

So any benefits? I know you said better flow and more get-up, but could you explain?

With the stock canister style of filter, the fuel has to flow from the top center of the can, through the filter media to the outside then back up to the top of the can and out to the engine. The fuel has to completely reverse direction to get out of the filter. this causes turbulence in the flow of the fuel.

It would be like you running at a full sprint, then suddenly realizing that you missed the door you need to take to exit. So you slam on the brakes, take and about face and exit.

The inline filter allows for a better flow path. In the top, filter media, then out the bottom. Just like sprinting, taking a step to the left and continuing onward.

I have no proof of performance gains, but my butt dyno notices that the car just feels more.. Peppy. Seems like she has better throttle response. When i stomp on the throttle, its instant vroom. No hesitation. :tongue:

[ShiuludeSVX]

That coil config is just nuts. I gotta do that while I'm contemplating the tranny fix.

Thanks for the big idea.
:)

[icingdeath88]

The stock filter has only one line. The inlet from the tank and the outlet to the fuel rails. The other two are just tank returns. ... At least thats the way it is on the 96. ? Hmm. I dont recall how it was plumbed on my old 92.

There are 3 lines:

The one from the fuel pump, which passes through the fuel filter
The fuel return line
The one that goes to the charcoal canister

[icingdeath88]

Thanks. 2007 STI coilovers. Ill do a writeup on them soon. Its really just a few hour procedure. I dont know why people spend such big bucks on custom coilovers for the svx when all you have to do is drill 3 holes on the top mounts.

What exact coilovers did you use?

The main point of contention for the front struts is the bracket that attaches to the endlinks for the front swaybar. How'd you solve that problem?

[Chuckls]

The one that goes to the charcoal canister


Uh oh..I keep meaning to put a check valve in that.

[smc]

What exact coilovers did you use?

The main point of contention for the front struts is the bracket that attaches to the endlinks for the front swaybar. How'd you solve that problem?

Easy. I tossed the swaybar in the trash. The stock swaybar is pathetic. Its diameter is so small they might as well have not used anything at all.

My solution :cool:
http://www.kokeln.com/images/swaybars_004.jpg

[icingdeath88]

So did you already put that ^ bar on there, or is that just the plan? That looks like just the thing I've been wanting. Where do you mount it though?

[smc]

Thats the plan. When the car progresses further and I can get an accurate weight balance measurement, then I can get the proper calculations for length and diameter and get to fabricating. If all goes according to plan *never does* It will mount in place of the stock swaybar. As for mounts to the suspension it just welding on some tabs. Ill be fabricating tubular suspension components once I have the time to make a jig. I may offer them for sale in stock SVX mounting or STI conversion configuration.
Gawds.. Not like im helping here, but this tread is getting way off course :lol:

[icingdeath88]

A little off course is pretty much the norm here.

What I've heard is that you can't mount a straight swaybar where the stock swaybar goes; the stock one is bent to get around/through the subframe without touching it. That makes things more difficult.

I'd buy a front swaybar, even if it's just a one-off. It would go well with the giant one I have in the rear.

[smc]

I still have the oem front swaybar. Im looking at it right now. Ill post up a picture tomorrow as its getting too late now, but its a really minor bend of 1/2". Otherwise its dang near just a strait bar. o.O

[icingdeath88]

I have never had the opportunity to check it out myself. If you could get a straight bar through there, that would be great.

[smc]

*chuckles* What passes for a front swaybar on these cars.

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods016.jpg

http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods017.jpg

Pretty much just a strait shot.

[icingdeath88]

Hmm. I imagined it would be more bent than that. Still, might it be enough that it will mean a straight bar will rub against the subframe if one does fit?

[smc]

As a quick test, I just slid a section of 2.5" dom tube all the way through. No binding. I think we will be good :)

[smc]

Porsche 930 rear swaybars. *cough cough* Look oddly familiar?
http://www.turbokraft.com/catalog/images/911-930_Sway-Bar-Rear_20.jpg

[svxfiles]

Porsche 930 rear swaybars. *cough cough* Look oddly familiar?
http://www.turbokraft.com/catalog/images/911-930_Sway-Bar-Rear_20.jpg

Do you have one like this to compare?

[SilverSpear]

Very interesting thread, gr8 work smc. Subscribed

[smc]

Very interesting thread, gr8 work smc. Subscribed

Its a little scattered at this point. A more than just abit off topic from the original post, but im glad that its raising more than just a few eyebrows. :)

As for the swaybar, I dont have one of the 911/930 bars just yet. Its on my to-do list. But I know where to get a hold of one for some measurements.

[LastSVXintheChi]

me likey this thread a lot :D

[smc]

This was a triumph.
I'm making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.
Well, the new coils are installed and functional. The wiring to the coils needs to be loomed to look better and to keep them from damage. Other than that, up and running.
Nothing to note performance wise. The car runs just as it did before. Which I suppose it note worthy in and of itself. Proof that you dont need to spend $200 for a single replacement part :) Ill post up pictures later as I have to head out for Easter family stuff.

[icingdeath88]

This was a triumph.
I'm making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS.
It's hard to overstate my satisfaction.

OLOLLOL You are the man.

Let my response just be that each of my SVXes has one of these: http://news.cnet.com/i/bto/20080124/BlackMesaPortalSticker.png

[smc]

Each set of 3 coils are connected by these blue, green and grey connectors located on the back of the engine. To remove them, first pull upward and then out on the flat tabs that are on the connectors, facing the fenders. This will allow you to remove the clips holding them to the mounting brackets. Then there is a second set of tabs on the opposite side of the connectors, holding them together. Pull Up on the tabs and pull the connectors apart.
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods023.jpg

Remove the coil packs and snip the wires.
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods024.jpg

Strip the ends
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods025.jpg

And install the supplied terminal ends that came with the new coils.
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods027.jpg

Note that the red yellow wire is positive and the yellow white is negative.

Mounting the packs:
In my case, I simply placed them where I wanted them and used a drillbit to mark where the mounting holes were. Then drilled the holes out. The last coil by the frame rail is a ***** to get mounted as you wont be able to fit a drill motor in place due to clearance issues with the engine. For the lower two holes, I just eyeballed it and was lucky enough to be spot on with drilling from the inner fender into the engine bay.
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods022.jpg
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods019.jpg

Connect your ignition wires using the supplied screws
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods028.jpg

And then custom cut your spark plug wires to length.
http://i1209.photobucket.com/albums/cc383/farbeyondriven775/svxmods030.jpg

And thats it! Your up and running. Just like factory, only a helluva lot cheaper.

[Chuckls]

Someone should Sticky this.

[smc]

Please no. Think of the children!

[Chuckls]

Sticky..as in make it at the top of the thread so it wont get lost forever

[smc]

*chuckles* Yeah, I know. Just being goofy for a moment. It happens on occasion.

[svxfiles]

*chuckles* Yeah, I know. Just being goofy for a moment. It happens on occasion.

This Network is NOT a place to have fun!:mad:
This place is like Procreation!
Serious!
Not a thing to F with!:mad:












What?!?:confused:
:o






:lol:

[smc]

Its been stated in another forum that I have a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter in regards to the coil swap. Very well. A few quick figures relating as to why I decided to do such an install.
Stock coil: 60 ma, 36,000 v maximum output with a short duration spark. $100 to $200 each.
High End Aftermarket subaru STI coils: 120ma, 50,000 v. output with modulated multi-spark capabilities. However they cost $700 for a set of 4.
My alternative: 310 ma, 51,000 v output with long duration spark. Cost, $36 each.

The remote coils are now mounted away from heat and vibration, have a more substantial spark that is less likely to be "blown out" when in a forced induction situation and are readily available and of lower cost than any alternative with a *subaru* label on them.

[LastSVXintheChi]

did you buy the plug wires separate? if so what kind did you use?

[huck369]

This is a Good alternative ideal for the coils, but there is no good place to mount them if you have all the stock parts under the hood (Air Filter Box, Overflow Jug, and Windshield washer jugs)
I bet there are a ton of stock 6-cylinder coil packs from other brands that could also be used too, just a mater of wiring them up.

[oab_au]

Its been stated in another forum that I have a complete lack of understanding of the subject matter in regards to the coil swap. Very well. A few quick figures relating as to why I decided to do such an install.
Stock coil: 60 ma, 36,000 v maximum output with a short duration spark. $100 to $200 each.
High End Aftermarket subaru STI coils: 120ma, 50,000 v. output with modulated multi-spark capabilities. However they cost $700 for a set of 4.
My alternative: 310 ma, 51,000 v output with long duration spark. Cost, $36 each.

The remote coils are now mounted away from heat and vibration, have a more substantial spark that is less likely to be "blown out" when in a forced induction situation and are readily available and of lower cost than any alternative with a *subaru* label on them.

Oh, I wonder who that could be.:D
If you are going to modify a system, it is best to know how that system works before you go changing it, or it may not be a good move.:)

Using separate High Energy coils, with Hi Tension leads is a retrograde step. The manufactures don’t go to the expense of fitting a coil on each plug, to be generous. They do it to solve a couple of problems that come with Hi Energy ignition. First to prevent the shorting and burning of the coil towers and leads, that happens when a separate coil, and plug wires were used. Any body that worked on GM, Ford etc, engines that used these would know the problems.

Secondly putting the coil on the plug prevented the electrical interference that Hi Energy, flowing through a wire transmits, to all the other wiring in the engine bay. With an increasing amount of analogue and digital signals, like crank sensors, airflow sensors, temp sensors, etc, which the engine relies on, this type of interference will cause increasing problems, so coil on the plug solved these.

If you are fitting different coils to this engine, they have to be the same as the originals that the ECU is set to work with. The particular coils that you have chosen have a primary resistance of 0.4 ohms; the standard coils have a primary resistance of 0.7 ohms. This means that when the ECU turns the coil on for the dwell period, a primary current of 30 amps will flow, instead of 17 amps. This current is flowed by the Ignitor till the amperage reaches about 4 amps, when the Ignitor holds it at this level till the ECU turns it off to fire the coil, due to the lower primary resistance, it will rise to this level faster, and is held at this amperage for a longer time.

This presents two problems; First the coil or the Ignitor will finally burn out from the extra current. Second, because the coil has on lower primary resistance, the rise time, to build the magnetic field will be faster, and as they don’t have a diode in the secondary to prevent the coil from firing, on the field rising, the plug will fire at the start of the dwell period and again at the end, advancing the spark.

If you and going to use different coils, the dwell period of the ECU will have to be reduced to suit the coils primary resistance, and use the diode to protect against firing on the start of the rise time. If they are used with Capacitive Discharge ignition, they can be used without the dwell change and the diode, but the wires will still be trouble.

Harvey.

[smc]

The wires are just a universal kit for a v8. 8mm hd wire. Nothing unusual. ACCEL kit. # 5040B The problem is, it tends to be rather difficult to get the leads connected to the sparkplugs due to how far they are located into the heads. They plugged right in on my project engine, however in practice in the SVX is has proven to be a bit more difficult to hear that satisfying *click* of a plug lock.
In the future, I will change out to a v6 kit with longer plug leads to make things easier.

Indeed, this swap is not for everyone. Space is at a premium under our hoods. Mine becoming more spartan as its intended for track use, is most likely not the best example. However in many ways it was just proof of a concept and an alternative to other coil options :)

oab_au, that is a beautiful response, mate. To which I will fully take to heart! I truly love information like this. Thank you and I will continue to refine this as my build progresses. :)

As for yet, there have been no detrimental affects of this swap. According to the obdII system monitoring, all is nominal. If this does indeed prove to have any ill affects, I will certainly report them. However in a short time, any affects may no longer relate to our cars as I will be changing to a stand alone ecu and the programming can be changed to compensate.

[icingdeath88]

Oh, I wonder who that could be.:D
If you are going to modify a system, it is best to know how that system works before you go changing it, or it may not be a good move.:)

Using separate High Energy coils, with Hi Tension leads is a retrograde step. The manufactures don’t go to the expense of fitting a coil on each plug, to be generous. They do it to solve a couple of problems that come with Hi Energy ignition. First to prevent the shorting and burning of the coil towers and leads, that happens when a separate coil, and plug wires were used. Any body that worked on GM, Ford etc, engines that used these would know the problems.

Secondly putting the coil on the plug prevented the electrical interference that Hi Energy, flowing through a wire transmits, to all the other wiring in the engine bay. With an increasing amount of analogue and digital signals, like crank sensors, airflow sensors, temp sensors, etc, which the engine relies on, this type of interference will cause increasing problems, so coil on the plug solved these.

If you are fitting different coils to this engine, they have to be the same as the originals that the ECU is set to work with. The particular coils that you have chosen have a primary resistance of 0.4 ohms; the standard coils have a primary resistance of 0.7 ohms. This means that when the ECU turns the coil on for the dwell period, a primary current of 30 amps will flow, instead of 17 amps. This current is flowed by the Ignitor till the amperage reaches about 4 amps, when the Ignitor holds it at this level till the ECU turns it off to fire the coil, due to the lower primary resistance, it will rise to this level faster, and is held at this amperage for a longer time.

This presents two problems; First the coil or the Ignitor will finally burn out from the extra current. Second, because the coil has on lower primary resistance, the rise time, to build the magnetic field will be faster, and as they don’t have a diode in the secondary to prevent the coil from firing, on the field rising, the plug will fire at the start of the dwell period and again at the end, advancing the spark.

If you and going to use different coils, the dwell period of the ECU will have to be reduced to suit the coils primary resistance, and use the diode to protect against firing on the start of the rise time. If they are used with Capacitive Discharge ignition, they can be used without the dwell change and the diode, but the wires will still be trouble.

Ok Harvey, how would one go about correcting for this? I am planning on running a megasquirt. How would you go about figuring what the dwell time should be set to for this setup?

[smc]

Seems like you would simply retard your timing a little depending on your tuning. o.O

[92snowmachine]

have you considered using a waste spark system? that's the one gm uses on their v6 enignes. it fires two cylinders at a time one at tdc compression and the other that is on the exhaust stroke. not really needed but very simple to operate if you go with an aftermarket ecu. also you can buy coil on plugs for the gm 5.3 and 5.7 engines for around $30 so that may be even easier.

[oab_au]

Ok Harvey, how would one go about correcting for this? I am planning on running a megasquirt. How would you go about figuring what the dwell time should be set to for this setup?

If you are going to use Megasquirt, there is a great resource in the forums that are there. Some one will have done it before.:)

The ignition process is, the ECU turns on the Ignitor, which turns the coil on, the coil's magnetic field rises, when the current gets to about 4amps, the Ignitor holds it by dissipating the excess current. The ECU then turns off the Ignitor and the coil, to produce the spark.

But if I was doing it, I would use a scope to look at the signal from the ECU to the Ignitor. Measure the time from the turn on to the turn off. Then look at the coil primary, and measure the time from turn on till the Ignitor clamps the current. This is the “Rise Time” that the coil primary takes to reach saturation. You will see the current rising, then leveling off to stay the same, as the Ignitor holds the current by dissipating the excess.

Fit the new coil, and measure its “Rise Time”, if this is faster than the original coil. Subtract the extra time from the total turn on time, for the ECU.
Eg. Original coil ECU time, 10ms. Rise time 8ms.
New coil rise time 6ms. So ECU on/off time reduced from 10ms to 8ms.


Seems like you would simply retard your timing a little depending on your tuning. o.O

That will only change the advance time, it won’t stop the Ignitor from dissipating the excess current for a longer time. The dwell time has to be changed.

Harvey.

[svxfiles]

have you considered using a waste spark system? that's the one gm uses on their v6 enignes. it fires two cylinders at a time one at tdc compression and the other that is on the exhaust stroke. not really needed but very simple to operate if you go with an aftermarket ecu. also you can buy coil on plugs for the gm 5.3 and 5.7 engines for around $30 so that may be even easier.

What year model?

[icingdeath88]

If you are going to use Megasquirt, there is a great resource in the forums that are there. Some one will have done it before.:)

Yea, dynomatt is helping me get things figured out. I have had a pretty hard time finding stuff in the forums, so I am planning to get everything documented on the forums so that others will have a tunable, standalone ECU in the future that doesn't cost an arm and two legs.

The ignition process is, the ECU turns on the Ignitor, which turns the coil on, the coil's magnetic field rises, when the current gets to about 4amps, the Ignitor holds it by dissipating the excess current. The ECU then turns off the Ignitor and the coil, to produce the spark.

But if I was doing it, I would use a scope to look at the signal from the ECU to the Ignitor. Measure the time from the turn on to the turn off. Then look at the coil primary, and measure the time from turn on till the Ignitor clamps the current. This is the “Rise Time” that the coil primary takes to reach saturation. You will see the current rising, then leveling off to stay the same, as the Ignitor holds the current by dissipating the excess.

Fit the new coil, and measure its “Rise Time”, if this is faster than the original coil. Subtract the extra time from the total turn on time, for the ECU.
Eg. Original coil ECU time, 10ms. Rise time 8ms.
New coil rise time 6ms. So ECU on/off time reduced from 10ms to 8ms.

Thanks for the great explanation. I googled for like an hour and couldn't figure out the role of the ignitor in all of this.

Is there a way to calculate the time, at least to get an estimate, or would you have to measure it?

Also, if I were to add an msd type ignition to the mix, how would that affect things?

[oab_au]

Yea, dynomatt is helping me get things figured out. I have had a pretty hard time finding stuff in the forums, so I am planning to get everything documented on the forums so that others will have a tunable, standalone ECU in the future that doesn't cost an arm and two legs.


OK yes Matt used it on his. You might ask him what Dwell he used as, it was probably too much, as he was burning out the coils.:)
I think Matt was firing two coils together.

Thanks for the great explanation. I googled for like an hour and couldn't figure out the role of the ignitor in all of this.

Is there a way to calculate the time, at least to get an estimate, or would you have to measure it?

Also, if I were to add an msd type ignition to the mix, how would that affect things?



Yes somebody could calculate it :D But you would need a .lot more information on the coil's inductance. Easier to measure it.

Harvey.

[92snowmachine]

What year model?

not sure which one, just know i've had to replace them. the straight six might be an even better option as the coils are really short.
http://www.carpartswarehouse.com/addtocart/2002_Chevrolet/Trailblazer/Ignition_Coil_Set/32-70055.html#
the video on the bottom isn't the right coils but click on the picture to enlarge.

[icingdeath88]

What year model?

Any of the LS1 or LS2 engines. They are Coil-near-plugs, not COPs. Here is an example of how someone did it on an RB25: http://www.rad240sx.com/?p=24

Here is some info on what cars they come out of: http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337602&page=4

[smc]

question is, can we simply run an inline resistor that will bring us back to 7 ohm? Seems like it would be a simple in theory.

[oab_au]

question is, can we simply run an inline resistor that will bring us back to 7 ohm? Seems like it would be a simple in theory.

The speed of the coils rise time, depends on the Inductive reactance of the coil. (the metal and the windings.) A resistor won't alter that, only the final current flow.

Harvey.

[icingdeath88]

I am really wishing I had paid more attention in the electrical part of physics class.

What I have gathered from talking with Matt is that you can just put 6 ignitor thingies inside the Megasquirt itself. Also, the LS2 coils have ignitors built in that match them, so using those particular coils with the Megasquirt might be a good idea, just for simplicity's sake.

SMC, I have the megasquirt stuff about 75% figured out. Would you be interested in trying it too? You are going to be needing some kind of engine management anyway.

[smc]

I was looking in depth into the hydra systems, as I plan on running a few different stages of ignition. The latest version of Hydra has provisions in the programming for launch control and a few different levels of antilag.

Currently, Im looking as MSD coils with a 0.680 ohm and 0.700 ohm primary resistance. Hmm.

[icingdeath88]

I was looking in depth into the hydra systems, as I plan on running a few different stages of ignition. The latest version of Hydra has provisions in the programming for launch control and a few different levels of antilag.

Currently, Im looking as MSD coils with a 0.680 ohm and 0.700 ohm primary resistance. Hmm.

MS3 can do launch control: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/launch.html

I was thinking to get a hydra, but an MS3 would be around $1k cheaper. Means more money to go to hardware. But the hydra would definitely be easier.

You mean MSD ignition?

[smc]

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8226/


Wow. MS has come a long way over the years! Ill start doing some digging on it.

[ShiuludeSVX]

Bump... Any new information about these items?

[smc]

With the stock ecu, the new coils are working like a champ. Zero issues as of yet. Ive put over 6,000 miles on them. And most of that was 'spirited' driving including a few autocross events and one open track day with the scca. Fine from idle to the rev limiter.

[ShiuludeSVX]

With the stock ecu, the new coils are working like a champ. Zero issues as of yet. Ive put over 6,000 miles on them. And most of that was 'spirited' driving including a few autocross events and one open track day with the scca. Fine from idle to the rev limiter.

Thanks for the update. I needed to make sure of this before making the change

[BackWoodsBob]

So Mr. Harvey, what would be the risk of running these coils long-term on the stock ecu with no modifications to the timing at all?

[ShiuludeSVX]

Tried to fit several things to the inlets, but came up with this.

The wire set can be shortened, if you like, and if you have the detail talent.
As they are, there is no greater difficulty, then re-inserting the original "Coil on Plug" configuration.

Can someone explain how to inline the pictures, instead of attaching.
Thanks

[Crazy_pilot]

Can someone explain how to inline the pictures, instead of attaching.

You need to first host them somewhere (The photo post function here, photobucket, facebook, etc), copy the URL of the picture (in Internet Explorer right click on the image and go to properties), and then paste that URL into your post here with in front and at the end.

Example: picture.address

[icingdeath88]

You need to first host them somewhere (The photo post function here, photobucket, facebook, etc), copy the URL of the picture (in Internet Explorer right click on the image and go to properties), and then paste that URL into your post here with in front and at the end.

Example: picture.address

It works well with pics uploaded to this site, if you copy the link URLs after you have uploaded them using the "manage attachments" menu and put them between [img] tags.

[ShiuludeSVX]

Thanks for the help. I jumped in and did all 6 coils and it has cleared up my rough engine. So, for the full price of 1 new Coil on Plug, I got a full set of this option. Yahhhh

[92 SVX]

considering how far down that spark plug is how difficult was it to connect a normal spark plug wire to the plug?

[ShiuludeSVX]

considering how far down that spark plug is how difficult was it to connect a normal spark plug wire to the plug?

The set that I got worked perfectly. Things got a bit tight at the #6 plug, but it is no harder than the regular coil on plug routine.
Trying to get a regular wire on it is pretty hard, being that it's hard to feel the "click" when it's locked in place, and chasing that far in, to get ON the plug.

[bishop]

Any updates on this? I think my car may be having rough idle because of a weak coil and im doing everything i can before putting money in to a new replacement coil.

[ShiuludeSVX]

Any updates on this? I think my car may be having rough idle because of a weak coil and im doing everything i can before putting money in to a new replacement coil.

No problems noted, and I'm running all 6 now. Cost wise, I did the whole thing for a little bit more than the full price of 1 new coil on plug.

[smc]

:cool: Glad to hear its working out for ya.

[shark_22]

For the next summer, I want to change all my ignition coil.
I have read this thread and Im not sure which coil is the best(using the car on the track)

who have tried the msd coil?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MSD-8226/

that one
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850500/

the gm one
http://www.carpartswarehouse.com/addtocart/2002_Chevrolet/Trailblazer/Ignition_Coil_Set/32-70055.html#

or finally using sti coil and remove my ignitor

[smc]

If I did it again, I would go with the MSD 8226 coil as it has a ohm rating closer to the stock coil. As was mentioned a bit earlier in the thread, it would be less of a risk to the stock ignitor unit than using a coil of lower ohm rating.
that being said, Im not a huge fan of a multiple spark discharge (msd) coil. Id rather have a single powerful spark than two or three weaker sparks for my ignition source.

[shark_22]

ok, so you don't have any problem(burn ignitor,...) with you 36$ coil pack?


the thing with the msd 8226 I have to buy the harness for each coil

probably have other model with the same ohm rating than the oem svx one but have to find it

Im gonna check the price of the sti coil at my subaru dealer but it probably gonna be the same price than the svx!

[Conn SVX]

I have this and I can feel a difference in the 3,000 Rpm
http://www.rpmoutlet.com/musv6msdstkr.htm

[smc]

Ive had no issue with them what so ever. However as oab_au pointed out: "The standard coils have a primary resistance of 0.7 ohms. This means that when the ECU turns the coil on for the dwell period, a primary current of 30 amps will flow, instead of 17 amps. This current is flowed by the Ignitor till the amperage reaches about 4 amps, when the Ignitor holds it at this level till the ECU turns it off to fire the coil, due to the lower primary resistance, it will rise to this level faster, and is held at this amperage for a longer time.

This presents two problems; First the coil or the Ignitor will finally burn out from the extra current. Second, because the coil has on lower primary resistance, the rise time, to build the magnetic field will be faster, and as they don’t have a diode in the secondary to prevent the coil from firing, on the field rising, the plug will fire at the start of the dwell period and again at the end, advancing the spark.

If you and going to use different coils, the dwell period of the ECU will have to be reduced to suit the coils primary resistance, and use the diode to protect against firing on the start of the rise time. If they are used with Capacitive Discharge ignition, they can be used without the dwell change and the diode, but the wires will still be trouble."

In other words, try to find a coil that has a primary resistance as close to 0.7 ohms that you can. Otherwise you may run the risk of burning out your ignitor block. My 0.4 ohm coils have not given me any trouble as of yet. But, then again, I dont have a ton of miles on this conversion. Only about 8,000.

[smc]

I have this and I can feel a difference in the 3,000 Rpm range.


I noticed the same thing. Its not a huge difference over stock, but its a good 'seat of the pants' feel. I also noticed that when the throttle is mashed, the car just feels like its pulling better than stock. :cool:

[Stevebsy]

I'm not sure if these are something new, but there are replacement OEM style coils available on Rockauto for about $66-70 each. Were these not available before? They have a front, center and rear so you can get the correct wire lengths.

My front drivers side coil is totally dead, I had to drive a couple hours with the injector unplugged to get home. Oddly I think it may be the best mpg I've gotten in some time.

I'm guessing that the coil has been dying for some time, and it's probably not the only one of the six after 21 years of being cooked inside the engine I think I might change all of them soon.

http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=445402&imageurl=http%3A//www.rockauto.com/info/SMP/UF233_PRIMARY.jpg

AIRTEX / WELLS Part # 5C1279 {#22433AA290, 88921344, C1062}
Front
Part Image
$65.79

AIRTEX / WELLS Part # 5C1280 {Click Info Link for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers}
Rear
Part Image
$65.79

STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # UF224 {#22433AA310, 88921346, E581A} Intermotor
Rear
Part Image
$67.99

AIRTEX / WELLS Part # 5C1278 {#22433AA300, 88921345, C1063}
CENTER
Part Image
$69.79

STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # UF234 {#22433AA300, 88921345, E580A} Intermotor
CENTER
Part Image
$70.79

STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # UF233 {#22433AA290, 88921344, E579A} Intermotor
Front

[oab_au]

Steve those coils look to be electrically correct for the car, should be OK.:)

Harvey.

[Stevebsy]

I figured that they are correct, I had just never seen them mentioned before, and until a couple days ago, never had a need to investigate. I thought the common knowledge was that these were a dealer only item, but maybe I just wasn't paying attention:lol:





Steve those coils look to be electrically correct for the car, should be OK.:)

Harvey.

[oab_au]

No haven't heard of any being around before, I had to buy one from Suby at $191.00 :(

Harvey.

[BackWoodsBob]

Yeah I saw those on RA the other night while looking up parts for a big brake kit for my subi.

[Hondasucks]

I wonder if you could use four cam 2.5L plug wires, or at least the rubber boots off the ends. They'll fit in the hole and completely seal it against water, probably would not be hard to yank the boots off an old set and put them on the MSD wires, especially if you are using a custom wire set where you have to put the ends on and such... Just my 2 bucks!
I might do this myself since my SVX has a couple of coils where the wires are fraying going into the coil :(

[BRZCory]

I too am looking for any updates. I had a coil go bad last week, and I've still got a bit of a stumble, so I think another one is on its way out. I'd rather replace all 6 once than keep going one-by-one!

[bishop]

Id recommend getting the replacement coils from rockauto, the external coils this thread is about are ok but a ***** to find a place to mount and will eventually burn out the ignitor.

[theflystyle]

Has anyone compared the resistance on the rockauto replacements with the factory specs?

[bishop]

They are the same as factory, they are meant to be factory replacements.

[BRZCory]

Posting just as an update:

I've been running these coils since november (So six months now). No ignitor issues yet. Hardest part was making the plug wires.

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/IMAG0010_zps1bba1cef.jpg
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/IMAG0015_zpsd620ba2d.jpg

I did relocate my battery to make room for the coils, and my car doesn't have ABS, so mounting was super easy due to the wide open spots on the frame rails.

[svxfiles]

Posting just as an update:

I've been running these coils since november (So six months now). No ignitor issues yet. Hardest part was making the plug wires.

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/IMAG0010_zps1bba1cef.jpg
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o482/BRZcory/IMAG0015_zpsd620ba2d.jpg

I did relocate my battery to make room for the coils, and my car doesn't have ABS, so mounting was super easy due to the wide open spots on the frame rails.

You have a five cylinder SVX?:p

[BRZCory]

Lol! No, I HAD a 5-cylinder impreza.

And then I replaced the one bad coil with a summit coil to get back to six. (which is why the one is missing).

And then I put the rest of the coils on when the single coil worked out well.

[Stevebsy]

Well...this is odd.

The OEM Subaru ones are now $75, and the Rockauto ones are now $139.

http://parts.bestbuysubaru.com/showAssembly.aspx?ukey_product=49231696&ukey_assembly=6029669&ukey_make=5806&ukey_model=90384&ukey_driveline=0&ukey_trimlevel=0&modelYear=0

Time to buy the other 5... :(






I'm not sure if these are something new, but there are replacement OEM style coils available on Rockauto for about $66-70 each. Were these not available before? They have a front, center and rear so you can get the correct wire lengths.

My front drivers side coil is totally dead, I had to drive a couple hours with the injector unplugged to get home. Oddly I think it may be the best mpg I've gotten in some time.

I'm guessing that the coil has been dying for some time, and it's probably not the only one of the six after 21 years of being cooked inside the engine I think I might change all of them soon.

http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=445402&imageurl=http%3A//www.rockauto.com/info/SMP/UF233_PRIMARY.jpg

AIRTEX / WELLS Part # 5C1279 {#22433AA290, 88921344, C1062}
Front
Part Image
$65.79

AIRTEX / WELLS Part # 5C1280 {Click Info Link for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers}
Rear
Part Image
$65.79

STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # UF224 {#22433AA310, 88921346, E581A} Intermotor
Rear
Part Image
$67.99

AIRTEX / WELLS Part # 5C1278 {#22433AA300, 88921345, C1063}
CENTER
Part Image
$69.79

STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # UF234 {#22433AA300, 88921345, E580A} Intermotor
CENTER
Part Image
$70.79

STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # UF233 {#22433AA290, 88921344, E579A} Intermotor
Front

[Stevebsy]

Zombie alert!

I did some digging around for an alternate coil, mostly for self amusement, but here's what I found:

https://www.summitracing.com/search/department/ignitions-electrical/coil-style/coil-pack?N=4294951516%2B4294944348%2B4294926547%2B4294 777072%2B4294825886%2B4294713947%2B4294926439%2B42 94926480&SortBy=DisplayPrice&SortOrder=Ascending

Would any of these work? They have similar primary resistance to the stock coil. Would have to figure out the connectors, but they do seem to be available so you could wire them up nicely...

[RisingPhoenix]

Ive had no issue with them what so ever. However as oab_au pointed out: "The standard coils have a primary resistance of 0.7 ohms. This means that when the ECU turns the coil on for the dwell period, a primary current of 30 amps will flow, instead of 17 amps. This current is flowed by the Ignitor till the amperage reaches about 4 amps, when the Ignitor holds it at this level till the ECU turns it off to fire the coil, due to the lower primary resistance, it will rise to this level faster, and is held at this amperage for a longer time.

This presents two problems; First the coil or the Ignitor will finally burn out from the extra current. Second, because the coil has on lower primary resistance, the rise time, to build the magnetic field will be faster, and as they don’t have a diode in the secondary to prevent the coil from firing, on the field rising, the plug will fire at the start of the dwell period and again at the end, advancing the spark.

If you and going to use different coils, the dwell period of the ECU will have to be reduced to suit the coils primary resistance, and use the diode to protect against firing on the start of the rise time. If they are used with Capacitive Discharge ignition, they can be used without the dwell change and the diode, but the wires will still be trouble."

In other words, try to find a coil that has a primary resistance as close to 0.7 ohms that you can. Otherwise you may run the risk of burning out your ignitor block. My 0.4 ohm coils have not given me any trouble as of yet. But, then again, I dont have a ton of miles on this conversion. Only about 8,000.

This is why I only use OEM for anything electronic. Those thinner coils on aftermarket can't handle that extra amperage (giving you that illusion of better performance) while slowly FRYING the igniter
It'll work for about 5 years until the igniter or a coil goes BUST. :eek:

[Stevebsy]

RockAuto has coils at good prices again, $56 or $62 depending on position.

[oab_au]

Steve the two types of coils, two wire and three wire. The two wire that we have, has its dwell controlled by the Igniter, so it has to have the same Inductance, as the standard coil.
The three wire coils have the Igniter in the coil, the dwell is controlled by the coil itself, and does not need the igniter. Just have to see tat the trigger from then ECU is the right polarity.

[92 SVX]

Zombie alert!

I did some digging around for an alternate coil, mostly for self amusement, but here's what I found:

https://www.summitracing.com/search/department/ignitions-electrical/coil-style/coil-pack?N=4294951516%2B4294944348%2B4294926547%2B4294 777072%2B4294825886%2B4294713947%2B4294926439%2B42 94926480&SortBy=DisplayPrice&SortOrder=Ascending

Would any of these work? They have similar primary resistance to the stock coil. Would have to figure out the connectors, but they do seem to be available so you could wire them up nicely...
I just looked at those and they have 33,000v and 35,000v (the 4.6 vs the coyote) in one of SMC's reply's he says the stock coils have 36,000v.
So those numbers alone I am thinking the stock one would work better for the car but :confused: for sure. also ya I realize this is one old reply lmao:D

[oab_au]

I just looked at those and they have 33,000v and 35,000v (the 4.6 vs the coyote) in one of SMC's reply's he says the stock coils have 36,000v.
So those numbers alone I am thinking the stock one would work better for the car but :confused: for sure. also ya I realize this is one old reply lmao:D

They have to be Hi Energy coils, those ones aren't, they should be about 56 Kv to 65 Kv.:)