View Full Version : Interior swap blues
I've been working on my SVX for over a year to get it ready for PA state inspection, as I could find the time. It is finally ready. Only it isn't.
Some previous owner swapped the original interior with one from another car, and they didn't change the VIN tag on the dash. So the dashboard VIN is from another car. As it turns out, the only VIN tag that really matters to folks like inspection stations, police, etcetera, is the one on the dash.
I noticed it when I was buying the car. But apparently I am a naive, trusting, fool. Since the door jamb VIN matched the paperwork, and the car had a valid inspection sticker on it at the time, I figured we were all good. Ha ha.
I will now become educated on the finer points of PennDOT Form MV-41. Or maybe I'll find out that the interior was from a stolen car, or that my car was stolen! I just can't wait.
Or maybe I'll just sell this pile of misery before it causes me any more woe. Does anyone want an uninspectable SVX with brand new brakes and a bunch of other brand new parts?
Conn SVX
10-06-2011, 05:47 AM
REMOVE the dash Vin # there are 4 or 5 other # on the car they can use . Be honest and tell them the story. That happened here and it went through. Conn. is tough also . What color is the car? and what color is the interior ? maybe the same car. before 1980 they didn't even have the vin on the dash so what do those people do ? Have you asked the people at DMV yet?
SVX92-97
10-13-2011, 10:22 AM
my 97 ebony I bought for $800 has no dash vin plate. I think when the windshield was replaced it may have been removed or fell off.:confused: I would remove the dash plate and try again and explain.
92snowmachine
10-13-2011, 10:52 AM
make your own reproduction vin plate out of a thin piece of steel and some number/letter punches. this is a common issue in my other car club (50's mopars) because you have to remove it to do a good paint job. most people have gotten away with faking their vin plate this way, since you can't get a very good visual through the windshield i would think that if it was close to original looking it would pass. i doubt many cops are experts as to exactly how subaru was making svx vin plates.
benebob
10-13-2011, 02:40 PM
make your own reproduction vin plate out of a thin piece of steel and some number/letter punches. this is a common issue in my other car club (50's mopars) because you have to remove it to do a good paint job. most people have gotten away with faking their vin plate this way, since you can't get a very good visual through the windshield i would think that if it was close to original looking it would pass. i doubt many cops are experts as to exactly how subaru was making svx vin plates.
Why don't you just tell him to rob a bank while your telling him to create an illegal vin which will eventually cost someone the car, a sizable chunk of change and possibly some visits with Bubba in the shower.
Provided you have the car legally and can prove that you have it legally start with Subaru, just like with any manufacturer it is their job to supply replacement LEGAL vin for LEGALLY owned cars. If that doesn't work out or your lacking the proper proof then move toward a bonded title. With the SVXs value being that of a nicely kept Yugo, it shouldn't cost ya more than a couple hundred in the bond.
92snowmachine
10-13-2011, 02:55 PM
Why don't you just tell him to rob a bank while your telling him to create an illegal vin which will eventually cost someone the car, a sizable chunk of change and possibly some visits with Bubba in the shower.
Provided you have the car legally and can prove that you have it legally start with Subaru, just like with any manufacturer it is their job to supply replacement LEGAL vin for LEGALLY owned cars. If that doesn't work out or your lacking the proper proof then move toward a bonded title. With the SVXs value being that of a nicely kept Yugo, it shouldn't cost ya more than a couple hundred in the bond.
if he needs the money to buy a new vin plate he has to do what he has to do.
i've been through this before, took 3 months and several hundred dollars. also made a replacement vin for a friend out of a tin can, cost nothing but time. the choice is his, i am just letting him know about all of his options, legal or not.
Conn SVX
10-13-2011, 03:26 PM
It is not an illegal vin plate . if all the # match.
icingdeath88
10-13-2011, 03:43 PM
the choice is his, i am just letting him know about all of his options, legal or not.
Here on the interweb, where asses need covering, instead of saying "You should do (illegal activity)", we say "(Illegal activity) has been done with success", implying that the person should do that, but not actually saying so. Phrase it as a piece of information rather than a suggestion. Also, if you know it's illegal, point it out.
Just my humble way of doing things like this. But then I have a non-stock steering wheel with the stock airbag and never posted how to do it, to avoid accountability... Which I'm not sure is illegal, but is definitely to be done at one's own risk.
[/end hijack]
Personally, what I would do is go back and try to get them to look at the vin number on another part of the car instead of the dash one. Because why the hell are they there, if not for this exact situation? The one on the firewall would be pretty difficult to counterfeit. Just explain the situation, and keep explaining it to different people until you find someone that's reasonable.
Maybe remove the vin plate from the dash also, so there's no confusion?
benebob
10-13-2011, 04:02 PM
It is not an illegal vin plate . if all the # match.
You're wrong, unless it was put there by the manufacturer it is an illegal vin plate. One that in many states is a felony. The manufacturer as I already stated is REQUIRED to provide a replacement vin if it was damaged, lost or misplaced. That is the only legal way to replace the visible vin on a vehicle and should cost you next to nothing provided you legally own the vehicle.
As for all of the #s matching. There is only 1 legal vin placed on a vehicle. That would be the visable vin. The other vins are simply there for manufacturer's id nothing legal about them.
You're better running the car without a vin, without a license, without a plate, without registration then you are to illegally tamper with a vin. Tampering with the vin means willful disregard for the law, the others not so much.
Sean486
10-13-2011, 05:08 PM
You're wrong, unless it was put there by the manufacturer it is an illegal vin plate. One that in many states is a felony. The manufacturer as I already stated is REQUIRED to provide a replacement vin if it was damaged, lost or misplaced. That is the only legal way to replace the visible vin on a vehicle and should cost you next to nothing provided you legally own the vehicle.
As for all of the #s matching. There is only 1 legal vin placed on a vehicle. That would be the visable vin. The other vins are simply there for manufacturer's id nothing legal about them.
You're better running the car without a vin, without a license, without a plate, without registration then you are to illegally tamper with a vin. Tampering with the vin means willful disregard for the law, the others not so much.
So to make a long story short he should go to the closest Subaru dealer and ask them to help him get a replacement vin plate. Is that right?
benebob
10-13-2011, 05:22 PM
So to make a long story short he should go to the closest Subaru dealer and ask them to help him get a replacement vin plate. Is that right?
Never got one for a Subie but most stealerships don't do them, you probably need to contact the manufacturer. Only one I can remember that you could get it through a dealer was for Mercedes, who uses paper for their vins BTW.
Mike621
10-13-2011, 05:25 PM
It's the vin from my old claret. that dash went in years ago around 3 am& I never had the chance to get the vin plate back. So the fact it's there is a mistake. It's jf1cx3533nh101688 correct?
Mike621
10-13-2011, 05:29 PM
The car should not require a dash vin to be inspected and the plate comes off easily.( I had to take it off the dash I installed from a parts car some time ago.
benebob
10-13-2011, 05:40 PM
The car should not require a dash vin to be inspected and the plate comes off easily.( I had to take it off the dash I installed from a parts car some time ago.
And how long did you sell cars?:rolleyes: No car can be bought sold or transfered without the VISABLE vin plate on it. It is plan and simply 100% illegal in this day and age. Don't believe me ask any legit inspection guy, any man in blue, any auto auction, any DMV. The dash vin is the only vin which is required by law to be on a car.:lol:
Now the funny part about this is since my TVR didn't have a visable vin plate either (had been glued onto the dash and fell behind it) the great state of Colorado felt compelled to insist on a State ID vin as the original importer was no longer in business. They also felt compelled to place it not in a visable location but rather on the door jamb, 3 inches above the Origin Plate (which like with many makers actually contains the vin as well).;)
Landshark
10-13-2011, 05:58 PM
i could have that car inspected tomorrow.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRYO6pqU16xskTiGnTGroZ73MpDzhB1W Uo_I9LH9ra21SOSgSw7H7JPDksqow
Mike621
10-13-2011, 06:01 PM
And how long did you sell cars?:rolleyes: No car can be bought sold or transfered without the VISABLE vin plate on it. It is plan and simply 100% illegal in this day and age. Don't believe me ask any legit inspection guy, any man in blue, any auto auction, any DMV. The dash vin is the only vin which is required by law to be on a car.:lol:
Now the funny part about this is since my TVR didn't have a visable vin plate either (had been glued onto the dash and fell behind it) the great state of Colorado felt compelled to insist on a State ID vin as the original importer was no longer in business. They also felt compelled to place it not in a visable location but rather on the door jamb, 3 inches above the Origin Plate (which like with many makers actually contains the vin as well).;)
Ben,
I was only speaking from my experiences. My Claret was inspected twice and passed w/o a dash vin and I had been pulled over in it 3-4 times and it was never a question. Not disagreeing with your experience, just stating my own.
benebob
10-13-2011, 06:05 PM
i could have that car inspected tomorrow.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRYO6pqU16xskTiGnTGroZ73MpDzhB1W Uo_I9LH9ra21SOSgSw7H7JPDksqow
So could I but legally neither you nor I could have it inspected ever in its current state, nor could it legally be sold, used as a parts car or used for anything other legally then a warm up for the crusher.
benebob
10-13-2011, 06:11 PM
Ben,
I was only speaking from my experiences. My Claret was inspected twice and passed w/o a dash vin and I had been pulled over in it 3-4 times and it was never a question. Not disagreeing with your experience, just stating my own.
Experience and law are 2 different things. Remember there are plenty of people speeding past you texting while legally drunk at the moment who won't get pulled over but some will eventually spend time with the man in blue. :D
Mike621
10-13-2011, 06:21 PM
I see what your saying. Originally I was just offering info on the mystery dash plate just so the owner of Jay's former car could have some peace of mind. I not condoning anything illegal. That's all. I'll go back to lurking now.
benebob
10-13-2011, 06:45 PM
I see what your saying. Originally I was just offering info on the mystery dash plate just so the owner of Jay's former car could have some peace of mind. I not condoning anything illegal. That's all. I'll go back to lurking now.
You do know what I mean about not being able to legally sell it. Technically the current owner can go back and recoup his her money for a fradulent sale as the car was sold to him without a vin plate. Have seen it done well over a 100 times. Actually just once but the other times the seller simply gave the money back because they have absolutely no defense.
Its definately not the "just make a vin for the car" world anymore and hasn't been for some time. Lots of good people are getting burned for actions of years ago as it becomes a legal nightmare.
Lookin4SVX
10-13-2011, 09:33 PM
The VIN on the firewall in the engine bay is the one that matters.
This is the VIN to the frame of the car. It is the car.
http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad73/Lookin4SVX/VIN.jpg
How hard is it to remove the dash vin plate? I would just remove the dash plate, tell them its a replacement and didn't come with one..
benebob
10-14-2011, 06:57 AM
Looking, sorry again you are not correct. As I've stated the ONLY vin which matters for LEGAL identification is the VISIBLE vin which on this car has been removed. All the other vins matter have no bearing on the legal status of the car. As I already stated ask any cop, any inspection person, and DMV person. Just because you took a picture of a vin doesn't mean it matters.:rolleyes::D
Removing "a plate" which BTW doesn't exist the vin is simply attached to the dash on most cars is just as I already stated a felony. So you're telling him to lie saying he replaced the part and the manufacture didn't legally provide the proper replacement? Then he gets to go to jail for other things as well.:lol:
Honestly, it is readily possible to make the car legal to someone in the business, I don't want to say that it is a cake walk though. If it was my car and I didn't understand the process I would take it back to who I bought it from and get my money back.
The laws on vins is clear as day, I'm actually quite suprised by the lack of understanding there is here.
davew833
10-14-2011, 04:00 PM
I'm not questioning anyone's knowledge of their local laws or interpretation thereof, but it seems like bureaucratic stupidity that the "visible VIN" is the one that's most easily removable. Common sense tells me that to make the firewall or doorframe VIN "visible" all I have to do is open the hood or the door. Any state DMV official or law enforcement officer would be well within their jurisdiction to ask me to do so and expect me to comply. Come to think of it, the only "official" that the firewall or door frame VIN would be beyond ready access to, would be a meter maid, and they don't generally write parking tickets with the VIN on them anyway-- at least not where I come from.
Again, I'm not criticizing anyone's understanding of their local laws, just the lack of common sense in many motor vehicle laws in general. It would be MUCH harder to fill or grind down the VIN on the firewall and engrave new matching numbers there than it would to stamp out a new phony dashboard VIN plate. (Oh, and by the way, some multiple SVX owners have had success in avoiding parking tickets while running license plates that don't match their VIN by, um, accidentally leaving a sheet of Wendy's coupons or other stray paper in a strategic spot on the left side of the dashboard... just sayin'!)
benebob
10-14-2011, 04:39 PM
I'm not questioning anyone's knowledge of their local laws or interpretation thereof, but it seems like bureaucratic stupidity that the "visible VIN" is the one that's most easily removable. Common sense tells me that to make the firewall or doorframe VIN "visible" all I have to do is open the hood or the door. Any state DMV official or law enforcement officer would be well within their jurisdiction to ask me to do so and expect me to comply. Come to think of it, the only "official" that the firewall or door frame VIN would be beyond ready access to, would be a meter maid, and they don't generally write parking tickets with the VIN on them anyway-- at least not where I come from.
Again, I'm not criticizing anyone's understanding of their local laws, just the lack of common sense in many motor vehicle laws in general. It would be MUCH harder to fill or grind down the VIN on the firewall and engrave new matching numbers there than it would to stamp out a new phony dashboard VIN plate. (Oh, and by the way, some multiple SVX owners have had success in avoiding parking tickets while running license plates that don't match their VIN by, um, accidentally leaving a sheet of Wendy's coupons or other stray paper in a strategic spot on the left side of the dashboard... just sayin'!)
It isn't local laws, it is Federal laws and remember, each manufacture is different with its vins. Some are easily removed, others are etched into the firewall, yet others are made out of freaking paper. The common sense comes in that the Fed dictated that the vin plate must be visable without entering the vehicle and that's it. It is the manufactures who choose to cheap out with it.
92snowmachine
10-14-2011, 05:01 PM
didn't mean to ruffle any body's feathers by my recommended course of action to correct the problem. obviously there are many risks that accompany creating your own vin. i generally consider this common knowledge but perhaps am too used to dealing with the many legal considerations that come with being a mechanic.
that being said i reply to people on this site the same way i would advise a friend not a customer. in all likeliness none of these legal possibilities will ever come up. the choice of what to do is obviously his and no one can take that away from him whether we suggest actions, tell him what to do, or passive aggressively scare him into thinking there is only one choice to make.
benebob
10-14-2011, 05:10 PM
didn't mean to ruffle any body's feathers by my recommended course of action to correct the problem. obviously there are many risks that accompany creating your own vin. i generally consider this common knowledge but perhaps am too used to dealing with the many legal considerations that come with being a mechanic.
that being said i reply to people on this site the same way i would advise a friend not a customer. in all likeliness none of these legal possibilities will ever come up. the choice of what to do is obviously his and no one can take that away from him whether we suggest actions, tell him what to do, or passive aggressively scare him into thinking there is only one choice to make.
That's what PMs are for.;) That quasi, well okay no quasi about the legality things.
Green1995SVX
10-14-2011, 06:10 PM
And how long did you sell cars?:rolleyes: No car can be bought sold or transfered without the VISABLE vin plate on it. It is plan and simply 100% illegal in this day and age. Don't believe me ask any legit inspection guy, any man in blue, any auto auction, any DMV. The dash vin is the only vin which is required by law to be on a car.:lol:
This is not true. I just bought and sold a grey market mercedes that only had a vin plate under the hood. There were several hoops to jump through to sell the car legally, but it's possible, and I just did it. :)
benebob
10-14-2011, 06:17 PM
This is not true. I just bought and sold a grey market mercedes that only had a vin plate under the hood. There were several hoops to jump through to sell the car legally, but it's possible, and I just did it. :)
I left the grey market cars out for a reason as they aren't really here you know. The feds don't accept 'em as being here, Mercedes of America doesn't accept 'em as being here so of course they don't exist. Really, that wasn't bloated Mercedes coupe you just sold.;)
Conn SVX
10-14-2011, 06:37 PM
I think you will get in a little trouble if you are stopped by a LEO especially out of state and don't have a vin on the dash. most don't want you out of the car or opening the door. they are not going to lift your hood. They are not going to stop you from registering a car just because it has no vin # . You would have to trailer it to DMV headquarters and get it replaced . You can build a kit car or a composite motorcycle and they will give you a vin #. If u have all the paper work and the other #s match I see no problem . Honesty is the best policy.
Lookin4SVX
10-14-2011, 09:40 PM
Looking, sorry again you are not correct. As I've stated the ONLY vin which matters for LEGAL identification is the VISIBLE vin which on this car has been removed. All the other vins matter have no bearing on the legal status of the car. As I already stated ask any cop, any inspection person, and DMV person. Just because you took a picture of a vin doesn't mean it matters.:rolleyes::D
Dear Benebob, my grandmother worked for the CT DMV for 35 years, and my mother just retired from the DMV two weeks ago after putting in 39 years.
The VIN on the firewall is legit enough to get it titled/registered in CT.
"Customers who need a VIN verification can visit a VIN Verification Emissions Station with their vehicle. These stations charge a $10 fee for VIN verifications."
"VIN Verification Criteria
Should your vehicle be found to have:
Missing primary VIN
Altered or tampered VIN
Improper plate attachment
Secondary location unavailable
VIN unreadable"
http://www.ct.gov/dmv/cwp/view.asp?a=804&q=460746
You take your car with no vin plate to ANY emissions station (private garages), They check your firewall vin, you give them $10, they pass you.
Thanks for your time.
Conn SVX
10-15-2011, 08:04 AM
And Conn. is tough on DMV regs Maybe PA is impossible then. I found if you are honest go to DMV and say what do I do they will help . . Like said above don't get caught with miss use of plates, worse than driving with no plate for sure . Either leave it blank or do as said above .
benebob
10-15-2011, 09:54 AM
Dear Benebob, my grandmother worked for the CT DMV for 35 years, and my mother just retired from the DMV two weeks ago after putting in 39 years.
The VIN on the firewall is legit enough to get it titled/registered in CT.
"Customers who need a VIN verification can visit a VIN Verification Emissions Station with their vehicle. These stations charge a $10 fee for VIN verifications."
"VIN Verification Criteria
Should your vehicle be found to have:
Missing primary VIN
Altered or tampered VIN
Improper plate attachment
Secondary location unavailable
VIN unreadable"
http://www.ct.gov/dmv/cwp/view.asp?a=804&q=460746
You take your car with no vin plate to ANY emissions station (private garages), They check your firewall vin, you give them $10, they pass you.
Thanks for your time.
So do they both chain smoke and scream next every 3 minutes?:D Your giving state laws where the state has very little jurisdiction. You take that same car you speak of to any auto auction (even in Conn) and then it will get rejected for a lack of a visable vin.
The point is by federal law a vehicle must have a visable vin. His car does not. It can not legally be registered, sold, or parted out in its current state. There are many quasi legal and not so legal ways to get it registered but under federal law a car must have a visable vin. Now is the time to recover his losses or explore the legal options for registering the car, there is no real good solution that doesn't have long term consequences.
Sometimes contentious topics can reveal good discoveries. Federal VIN requirements and FREE VIN history searches are available here http://www.vehicleidentificationnumber.com/NHTSA_vehicle_identification_number_content.html
Also,
(f) The VIN for passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and trucks of 4536 kg or less GVWR shall be located inside the passenger compartment. It shall be readable, without moving any part of the vehicle, through the vehicle glazing under daylight lighting conditions by an observer having 20/20 vision (Snellen) whose eye-point is located outside the vehicle adjacent to the left windshield pillar. Each character in the VIN subject to this paragraph shall have a minimum height of 4 mm.
benebob has it right on this.
Gene
I don't mean to kick a dead horse here but, I see nothing in the regulations that would preclude one from having an honest VIN plate fabricated as long as it meets the 4 mm spec. Low cost, no reason to panic.
Gene, the thread killer.:lol:
Thanks everyone for making such a big deal out of this. Originally I was just blowing off steam, but now I can see where it is a legitimate issue in a car that gets so many parts swapped around.
Much as I might like to go the Dr. Evil route, I think I'll take my chances with the legal one and take my chances with the results.
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/forms/vehicleTitlingForms.shtml
I'll update the thread when I have more.
I don't see anything in the rules that say you can't stamp out a replacement plate with the honest VIN at 4 mm height. Like they do for dog tags. No reason to panic.
Gene
Conn SVX
12-12-2011, 08:42 PM
WDB Did u ever get the car registered . We are waiting to hear how you made out .
No updates of any consequence. The local garage hooked me up with a contact in the state police, but he has not returned my calls. I will probably end up doing it without his help.
Conn SVX
12-14-2011, 07:47 AM
What's it been like 4 months
92snowmachine
12-14-2011, 11:38 AM
if you are going the legitimate route (it sounds like you are) then you would be better off calling a tow company. they would charge you a little money but they can usually fast track a new vin pretty quickly, some even offer this as a regular service.
What's it been like 4 monthsNow you sound like my wife.
if you are going the legitimate route (it sounds like you are) then you would be better off calling a tow company. they would charge you a little money but they can usually fast track a new vin pretty quickly, some even offer this as a regular service.Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check it out.
Hopefully I don't shock anyone too greatly but I actually *did* *something* about my VIN issue last week. Actually I started a month or so ago, when I filled out the MV-41 paperwork for getting a new VIN and mailed it in to the state.
They sent it back.
I figured the part that had to be filled out by a state police officer would be handled by them, which in hindsight was probably not too swift on my part. So I called the nearest barracks, eventually got connected with the "vehicle fraud" trooper, and he came out and took a look. He filled out the paperwork verifying that the car was eligible for another VIN. He also told me that I could just get classic car tags and be done with state inspections altogether. Woot!
Except he's wrong.
Antique tags exempt a car from state inspection, but cars with classic tags still face annual inspections. They're just exempt from emissions testing.
So it looks like I'll be getting a brand new VIN courtesy of the Commonwealth. I'll keep you all updated.
OK, final update on this topic.
Clif notes: the car is PA legal, inspected, and on the road! Hooray!
Longer version: I reconnected with the state trooper who filled out the MV-41, and told him I was going for the reissued VIN. He sent in his paperwork, I sent in mine. A few weeks later I got back:
a new title, with a "V" indicating "Reissued VIN"
a new owner's card, with "Reissued VIN" on it
a VIN plate from the state of PA
The VIN plate contains the same VIN as the car got from Subaru, plus another number that I suppose is important to the state. The plate gets attached under the hood on the right-hand side, as close to the firewall as possible. Hocus pocus, ala kazam, I'm legal.
The incorrect VIN from the interior swap is still up on the dash. I think I'll put a piece of tape over it or something. No matter what, the next time a police officer takes an interest in the car there's going to be some 'splainin' to do.
In retrospect: if I knew then what I know now, specifically that the dashboard VIN had to match the title in order to get the car inspected, I would have gotten a VIN plate made and attached it to the dash myself.
At any rate, I'm finally, finally! able to drive the SVX without sticking to back roads and looking over my shoulder the whole time. Now I can really get to know the car. I'm looking forward to it.
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