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svx 420
11-25-2010, 04:34 PM
im tryin to build up my motor..i was wondering if i would have to take out the whole motor to install my pistons n cams does an1 hava answer 4 me? thx plz help

Crazy_pilot
11-25-2010, 04:46 PM
Are you seriously asking if you have to pull the motor out of the car to change the pistons in it?

svx 420
11-25-2010, 04:48 PM
yes i am am not a mechanic buddy simple question i need a simple answer ,just wondering how much i need to invest, dnt be mad cause u got 227000 on ur svx no **** rollin restoration

Crazy_pilot
11-25-2010, 04:53 PM
If you're not a mechanic you won't be changing out pistons yourself, so why ask in the first place?

Short version? Several thousand. Figure ~$3000 for pistons and cams, probably another $2500-4000 for machine work, reseal kit, new crank/rod bearings... You also need some sort of engine management since the stock MAF runs out at ~250HP. I doubt you'll get it done for less than $7000. Probably closer to 10K to do everything properly.

svx 420
11-25-2010, 05:05 PM
thx man good to knw i didnt knw id have to get machine work done as well

Johnybeas
11-25-2010, 10:32 PM
lol I can see much fail in this job... lol this isn't a honda... the EG33 will take a lot more work to build than I think you'll be willing to put in. If you are serious about this however hit me up and I can get you all the parts you need to build the engine for a good price.

Cam
11-26-2010, 12:12 AM
If you look in my profile under threads I have started then you will see some of the work that it takes to build the engine. Should give you a rough idea. I am 7500 dollars into my build. Not done quite yet. My thread is called 11:1 engine build.

sicksubie
11-26-2010, 06:52 AM
yes i am am not a mechanic buddy simple question i need a simple answer ,just wondering how much i need to invest, dnt be mad cause u got 227000 on ur svx no **** rollin restoration


That is 222,700 kilometers on the car not 222,700 dollars invested:rolleyes::lol:

Crazy_pilot
11-26-2010, 10:12 AM
If you look in my profile under threads I have started then you will see some of the work that it takes to build the engine. Should give you a rough idea. I am 7500 dollars into my build. Not done quite yet. My thread is called 11:1 engine build.

This is of course all assuming that he wants to get it done properly. You could save a huge amount of money from that if you pulled the motor, popped the heads, swapped pistons right there, dropped the heads back on with new HG's, drop the cams in, put it back in the car and start it up. Of course this wouldn't allow him to re-hone the cylinders... Or check the bearings... So the car might produce 300 HP for a few minutes.

Huskymaniac
11-26-2010, 12:38 PM
What if he just replaced the cams, MAF and injectors with higher flow versions and an upgraded ECU from Mike? The engine would be interference but a new belt should give some piece of mind there. How much would that cost and could a DIYer do it? How about if you skipped the new CAMs? What is the HP improvement with simple mods like this?

sicksubie
11-26-2010, 12:52 PM
What if he just replaced the cams, MAF and injectors with higher flow versions and an upgraded ECU from Mike? The engine would be interference but a new belt should give some piece of mind there. How much would that cost and could a DIYer do it? How about if you skipped the new CAMs? What is the HP improvement with simple mods like this?

Someone correct me if I am wrong but I dont think there is any cam profile you can put on the stock valvetrain that would turn it into an interference motor...

Cam
11-26-2010, 01:13 PM
Someone correct me if I am wrong but I dont think there is any cam profile you can put on the stock valvetrain that would turn it into an interference motor...

Not that Mike sells anyways, but I am not sure what the valve trains max length of travel is. That would be a good way to get a little more power out of the engine for not too much cash, though. Still gonna cost you 2 grand or so.

Huskymaniac
11-26-2010, 02:57 PM
Not that Mike sells anyways, but I am not sure what the valve trains max length of travel is. That would be a good way to get a little more power out of the engine for not too much cash, though. Still gonna cost you 2 grand or so.

Perhaps I was under the wrong impression. I thought his NA cams would result in interference unless you also used his pistons.

So if you just popped those cams in, upgraded the MAF and fuel injectors and installed a Stage 2 (is that correct?) ECU, how much HP would that result in?

And what if you skipped the cams and just did the other three items? I keep seeing commercials for friggin Kias that have 300 HP and I can't help but think that this engine should be able to hit that easily too. Of course, one should probably put in better head gaskets at the same time and make sure all tranny mods (TCU upgrade, valve body upgrade and lower flow resistance tranny cooler) are also installed.

icingdeath88
11-26-2010, 07:11 PM
This is of course all assuming that he wants to get it done properly. You could save a huge amount of money from that if you pulled the motor, popped the heads, swapped pistons right there, dropped the heads back on with new HG's, drop the cams in, put it back in the car and start it up. Of course this wouldn't allow him to re-hone the cylinders... Or check the bearings... So the car might produce 300 HP for a few minutes.

How about on a really well taken care of engine with only 70k miles? I was wondering how well it would work to just swap the pistons without any machine work. That plus cams, MAF, stage 2 ecu and injectors would make for a reasonably powerful, relatively inexpensive build.

Crazy_pilot
11-26-2010, 07:56 PM
How about on a really well taken care of engine with only 70k miles? I was wondering how well it would work to just swap the pistons without any machine work. That plus cams, MAF, stage 2 ecu and injectors would make for a reasonably powerful, relatively inexpensive build.

The problem is I'm fairly sure the ECUTune pistons call for a slight boring out of the cylinders. Fairly minimal, but not something you'd be able to do with the block intact.

I've got a set of Mike's cams waiting for me at home. I was hoping to have them in this summer but there was a back-log at the manufacturer and I had to put my engine back together before Mike could get them to me. My plan is to just drop those in and see what happens. It's very likely that between the cams, my exhaust (a bit more free flowing than stock) and hopefully my new intake I'll be able to max out the stock MAF. Should be fun...

icingdeath88
11-27-2010, 12:46 AM
The problem is I'm fairly sure the ECUTune pistons call for a slight boring out of the cylinders. Fairly minimal, but not something you'd be able to do with the block intact.

I've got a set of Mike's cams waiting for me at home. I was hoping to have them in this summer but there was a back-log at the manufacturer and I had to put my engine back together before Mike could get them to me. My plan is to just drop those in and see what happens. It's very likely that between the cams, my exhaust (a bit more free flowing than stock) and hopefully my new intake I'll be able to max out the stock MAF. Should be fun...

Hmm. I might look into the pistons a bit more after I do my 6-speed swap. How much do you think the cams by themselves would add?

ZephTheChef
12-01-2010, 04:10 PM
Am I the only one lol-ing at the fact that this was posted in "Interior Mods"?

icingdeath88
12-01-2010, 10:41 PM
Am I the only one lol-ing at the fact that this was posted in "Interior Mods"?

Weird, I thought it was under "today's posts" ;)

But yea interior =! internals.

Any thoughts on the actual question? Is it even remotely ok to swap in new pistons without having machine work done on the engine?

Cam
12-02-2010, 12:20 AM
I have been told that our cylinders wear into ovals. Mine were slightly out of round before my machine work. Suppose you would have issues with rings seating properly perhaps...

Huskymaniac
12-02-2010, 01:06 PM
Why not just avoid the hassle and just replace the MAF, injectors and maybe the cams? Unless you are going to do forced injection, what is the reason to change the pistons?

ZephTheChef
12-02-2010, 01:30 PM
I agree, internal engine mods are about the worst bang for your buck there is. But yes, if you're replacing pistons, you really should do machine work. I've done so on my other cars with just a good cylinder hone, but they weren't out of round or damaged in any way. To "do it right" you really need to have the block machined to the right tolerances.

Cam
12-02-2010, 01:47 PM
You can raise the compression ratio, put thermal coated bearings in, blueprint the engine, etc. All these things are essential for a true performance build. Subarus have tight oil clearances from the factory, which makes them incredibly prone to losing bearings or other parts of the bottom end. thermal coating components of the bottom end negates thermal expansion and allows for tighter tolerances to be run. It is a must if your engine is to be "perfect".

ZephTheChef
12-02-2010, 03:04 PM
You can raise the compression ratio, put thermal coated bearings in, blueprint the engine, etc. All these things are essential for a true performance build. Subarus have tight oil clearances from the factory, which makes them incredibly prone to losing bearings or other parts of the bottom end. thermal coating components of the bottom end negates thermal expansion and allows for tighter tolerances to be run. It is a must if your engine is to be "perfect".

I personally can't see spending $5,000 on an engine build when they can be had used for $250-500 all day long. I promise you that built engine isn't going to last 10x-20x as long as a junkyard replacement...odds are it probably won't even last 3x as long. I consider EG33s disposable engines due to their low cost. The only reason I could see for building one like that would be if you're on an unlimited budget, or you just plain don't like turning wrenches.

Cam
12-02-2010, 03:19 PM
I personally can't see spending $5,000 on an engine build when they can be had used for $250-500 all day long. I promise you that built engine isn't going to last 10x-20x as long as a junkyard replacement...odds are it probably won't even last 3x as long. I consider EG33s disposable engines due to their low cost. The only reason I could see for building one like that would be if you're on an unlimited budget, or you just plain don't like turning wrenches.

I spent the money because I like turning wrenches. I also like doing things right. I have learned an incredible amount from doing my engine the way I have done it. And treating EG33's as disposable is the same attitude that has depleted a lot of the resources we have for parts and service. That being said, I find your project very interesting and am excited to see how it works out.

ZephTheChef
12-02-2010, 03:43 PM
I spent the money because I like turning wrenches. I also like doing things right. I have learned an incredible amount from doing my engine the way I have done it. And treating EG33's as disposable is the same attitude that has depleted a lot of the resources we have for parts and service. That being said, I find your project very interesting and am excited to see how it works out.

I understand the desire to do things "right", and the joys of doing so. And if I had the time and money, I would absolutely do things that way. I'm much more about getting the performance I can out of what I have than sparing no expense to get what I feel are overall, very slight improvements.

I'm not saying I'd just blow an engine up and throw it away, but I won't be doing performance rebuilds either, if I do get into rebuilding them...I'll be doing it as cheaply as is reasonable...or, more likely, selling the core to a rebuilder who will "do it right". I understand where you're coming from, and it sounds like you understand where I'm coming from, so I guess all is well.

The only thing I'd argue against, is that people have treated EG33s as disposable, lol, and that there's a lack of parts availability (salvage anyway). The transmission problems with these cars have left salvage yards rich with SVXs, and parts gloriously cheap, in my experience.

oab_au
12-02-2010, 03:56 PM
You can raise the compression ratio, put thermal coated bearings in, blueprint the engine, etc. All these things are essential for a true performance build. Subarus have tight oil clearances from the factory, which makes them incredibly prone to losing bearings or other parts of the bottom end.. thermal coating components of the bottom end negates thermal expansion and allows for tighter tolerances to be run. It is a must if your engine is to be "perfect".

I can't really agree with this Cam. Modern engines have close bearing fit, and run low viscosity oil. I think, "incredibly prone to losing bearings" is way off the mark. The engines that have had big end problems have had more to do with high rpms, and increased bearing clearance.

Also, "thermal coating components of the bottom end negates thermal expansion". I guess you are talking about coating the bearing surface. This won't stop the rod and shells from expanding due to heat from combustion.

Harvey.

ZephTheChef
12-02-2010, 04:08 PM
Plus, the bearing coatings are usually a dry-film lube, as opposed to ceramic for thermal purposes. Coating the pistons and head can certainly lower temps overall, though.

Cam
12-02-2010, 05:07 PM
It should go without saying that the only parts not affect by thermal expansion are the coated parts. Suppose I could have been more clear about that. And I say that they are prone to losing bearings because they do so at RPM's that many modern cars are comfortable at. 9k rpm is not much, especially when Porsche has engines that near 20k rpm redlines.

ZephTheChef
12-02-2010, 05:17 PM
It should go without saying that the only parts not affect by thermal expansion are the coated parts. Suppose I could have been more clear about that. And I say that they are prone to losing bearings because they do so at RPM's that many modern cars are comfortable at. 9k rpm is not much, especially when Porsche has engines that near 20k rpm redlines.

Fair enough!

icingdeath88
12-02-2010, 11:39 PM
Why not just avoid the hassle and just replace the MAF, injectors and maybe the cams? Unless you are going to do forced injection, what is the reason to change the pistons?

11:1 comp ratio.

You can raise the compression ratio, put thermal coated bearings in, blueprint the engine, etc. All these things are essential for a true performance build. Subarus have tight oil clearances from the factory, which makes them incredibly prone to losing bearings or other parts of the bottom end. thermal coating components of the bottom end negates thermal expansion and allows for tighter tolerances to be run. It is a must if your engine is to be "perfect".

What if it doesn't have to be perfect, though? Is it a corner worth cutting? The expense makes me think that it could be. I mean, I have 2 spare engines, one complete in a parts car and one just the longblock. So from a reliability standpoint, I could handle losing an engine. I realize it wouldn't be anywhere near as reliable as what you'll be running, but for half the cost, I think I could live with that.

I'm gonna talk with LAN and see what he thinks considering he's the one who designed the pistons in the first place, but if it's worth a try, I'll go for it next semester.

I personally can't see spending $5,000 on an engine build when they can be had used for $250-500 all day long. I promise you that built engine isn't going to last 10x-20x as long as a junkyard replacement...odds are it probably won't even last 3x as long. I consider EG33s disposable engines due to their low cost. The only reason I could see for building one like that would be if you're on an unlimited budget, or you just plain don't like turning wrenches.

I'm feeling you about the cost issue. My current SVX (the one in my sig was in a wreck :() only cost $800. I can't see spending more than a few thousand on the engine.

Cam
12-03-2010, 12:20 AM
11:1 comp ratio.



What if it doesn't have to be perfect, though? Is it a corner worth cutting? The expense makes me think that it could be. I mean, I have 2 spare engines, one complete in a parts car and one just the longblock. So from a reliability standpoint, I could handle losing an engine. I realize it wouldn't be anywhere near as reliable as what you'll be running, but for half the cost, I think I could live with that.

I'm gonna talk with LAN and see what he thinks considering he's the one who designed the pistons in the first place, but if it's worth a try, I'll go for it next semester.



I'm feeling you about the cost issue. My current SVX (the one in my sig was in a wreck :() only cost $800. I can't see spending more than a few thousand on the engine.

This is where it becomes a personal preference. I plan to have this car to give to my first child, if and when that happens. It may not be realistic but I think it can be done. This is my second car, and honestly the first one I have seriously turned wrenches on. I am paying for performance, but even more so for memories, satisfaction, and knowledge. I could honestly have the engine blow up, and not freak out. I would he upset, sure. But if I couldn't live with it, I wouldn't build it. I AK not saying my engine will last forever. Or even 100k. But here's to hoping it will.

As far as talking with Michael, my experiences lead me to believe this is the right move. He is realistic, very knowledgeable, and most important is not a parts pusher. If he says it's the way he would do it, it is because if it were his car he would.

ZephTheChef
12-03-2010, 04:20 PM
This is where it becomes a personal preference. I plan to have this car to give to my first child, if and when that happens. It may not be realistic but I think it can be done. This is my second car, and honestly the first one I have seriously turned wrenches on. I am paying for performance, but even more so for memories, satisfaction, and knowledge. I could honestly have the engine blow up, and not freak out. I would he upset, sure. But if I couldn't live with it, I wouldn't build it. I AK not saying my engine will last forever. Or even 100k. But here's to hoping it will.

As far as talking with Michael, my experiences lead me to believe this is the right move. He is realistic, very knowledgeable, and most important is not a parts pusher. If he says it's the way he would do it, it is because if it were his car he would.

Good for you, man. Top notch attitude. I'm sentimental about my SVX too, as my uncle is the original owner (and still on the title) so it's important to me (and him) that it's taken care of. He's probably not too thrilled about the mods, but he loves my enthusiasm...better sitting in my garage getting some wrench-love than in his driveway doing nothing.

I'm all in favor of top-quality workmanship and commend you on doing it right instead of doing it twice ;) Saw on your profile that you're an A&P, so I can certainly see why you'd want to do it by the book. Are you also a pilot? I grew up around aviation, and got my basic private pilot's license but haven't gone any further with it.

Cam
12-03-2010, 05:32 PM
Good for you, man. Top notch attitude. I'm sentimental about my SVX too, as my uncle is the original owner (and still on the title) so it's important to me (and him) that it's taken care of. He's probably not too thrilled about the mods, but he loves my enthusiasm...better sitting in my garage getting some wrench-love than in his driveway doing nothing.

I'm all in favor of top-quality workmanship and commend you on doing it right instead of doing it twice ;) Saw on your profile that you're an A&P, so I can certainly see why you'd want to do it by the book. Are you also a pilot? I grew up around aviation, and got my basic private pilot's license but haven't gone any further with it.

I am indeed an airframe mechanic, but unfortunately do not have my A&P liscense. But I have done everything from joining sections of the fuselage to doing landing gear changes to installing pressure domes (all on commercial aircraft). I want to get my pilots liscense in the near future as my employer will pay for ground school. Something that I will probably be looking into soon. How long have you had your private liscense?

ZephTheChef
12-03-2010, 05:43 PM
I am indeed an airframe mechanic, but unfortunately do not have my A&P liscense. But I have done everything from joining sections of the fuselage to doing landing gear changes to installing pressure domes (all on commercial aircraft). I want to get my pilots liscense in the near future as my employer will pay for ground school. Something that I will probably be looking into soon. How long have you had your private liscense?

I started lessons when I was 15, didn't get around to finishing up until I was 19. Aviation is a fun world to be a part of :) I'm actually planning on building a BearHawk if I can ever find the time to finish up and sell (most of) the project cars...and I can assure you, that one is not going to be a project I'll be budget-minded about.

The best advice I can give you in terms of getting your pilot's license, is do it as quickly as possible. You don't make hardly any progress if you're only flying a couple hours a month...and every lesson just becomes a refresher from last time if you don't make a serious effort to get through it as quickly as possible. I was pretty casual about it for the first several years, but I finally just gritted my teeth and got it done over a couple of months of serious focus on it. Consequently, I had something like 80 hours to get through it, when a crash-course'll get you done in more like 40-50.