Transmission Cooler

[SVXRide]

Okay, so I just bought a used '92 LSL with 172k on it and have read about all the "issues" with the SVX (yeah, I bought it anyway - it's time for another car adventure - last one was a '68 Camaro...). I was hoping for some help working the "undersized cooling" issue. The previous owner had the trans go out on him at around 140k and spent major $$ having it rebuilt, but didn't do anything about the cooling. Questions - 1. is there a recommended aftermarket trans cooler that I should go with, 2. should I just disconnect the lines that go from the trans to the main radiator and plumb them to the aftermarket radiator, and 3. where is the best place to locate the aftermarket radiator (pictures of installation?). Thanks in advance for everyone's help on this:)

[dromano]

Get a stack cooler, B&M, Hayden...Put it in front of the a/c condensor. (involves removing the "water fall" piece between the head lights), find a thread here. Abandon the radiator cooler. Do you have an add on ATF filter (under the battery),If not get one, PermaCool has one. Change ATF (all 10 quarts) at 15,000 mile intervals. Get an ATF temp guage, don't let the temp go over 200 degrees for very long. :D

[ensteele]

There has been some discussion on not getting rid of the stock cooler in the radiator. It will keep the fluid from getting too cold if you have extremely cold temperatures. If you have a filter, it will keep the stock cooler from clogging up, and the water in the radiator will take the heat out of the fluid much more effectivelly. Some have done it both ways. Just wanted to give you some food for thought - no, I didn't want to confuse you. :)

[Ron Mummert]

Hello, Ride. I just passed through Dunkirk last weekend on my way to an old friend's house party in Huntingtown. I have a B & M 16,000 GWV cooler mounted between the condenser & radiator. You'll find hundreds of opinions on what's best. Have fun.

Ron.

[SVXRide]

This is great! Thanks for the thoughts! I'll probably start with the add on filter, then move to the cooler.
Questions - Dromano - do you have a part number for the PermaCool filter?
Ensteele93 - No problem with confusion (my kids handle that department) - I kind of like the idea of running an add-on in series for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
Ron Mummert - Ron - yeah, my place is behind the Safeway. Let me know the next time you're in scenic Calvert County, I'd like to see how you shoehorned the B&M between the condenser and radiator (did you ever get your A/C issues resolved? I saw your part of the intermittent A/C thread)

[dromano]

Go to permacool.com
click on transmission filter kit
the item I used is 10678

You can buy the temperature sending unit at Car Quest for way less than what Perma Cool wants for it. If you don't want to do a temp guage the Perma Cool kit has a plug for the sending unit spot.

The filter that comes with the kit is a mid quality spin on filter. My preference for a replacement is a Fram X2 oil filter that is good for 7000 miles.

Be certain that if you need more hose that it is rated for the heat range of ATF.

If you plan to add an ATF cooler get a stack cooler and put it in front of the a/c condensor.
If this creates questions.......ASK. Bueno suerte!!!!

David:D

[Ron Mummert]

I'd like to see how you shoehorned the B&M between the condenser and radiator (did you ever get your A/C issues resolved? I saw your part of the intermittent A/C thread) [/B][/QUOTE]

The cooler's only 3/4 inches thick. The shoehorning was done by a tranny shop. Labor was $85.00. Uh... I'm having no A/C problems. Must got me mixed up with some other penniless individual.
I'll let you know the next time I'm heading south, but be sure to sign up for Reading IV next April.

Ron.

[SVXRide]

The cooler's only 3/4 inches thick. The shoehorning was done by a tranny shop. Labor was $85.00. Uh... I'm having no A/C
problems. Must got me mixed up with some other penniless individual.
I'll let you know the next time I'm heading south, but be sure to sign up for Reading IV next April.

Ron.

Ron -
Yeah, I probably got my "threads" crossed. Did you ever hook up a trans temp gauge to see how the cooler is doing?
April is definitely in the plans, just have to find someone to watch the kids:)

[SVXRide]

David,
Thanks for the Perma Cool number. I ordered one through Summit Racing ($31.95 + handling). Is installation fairly straight forward - i.e. unbolt stock filter, bolt in Perma Cool filter?
Thanks!
-Bill

[dromano]

Originally posted by SVXRide
David,
Thanks for the Perma Cool number. I ordered one through Summit Racing ($31.95 + handling). Is installation fairly straight forward - i.e. unbolt stock filter, bolt in Perma Cool filter?
Thanks!
-Bill

The PermaCool filter mount has 3 mounting holes.
You will have to drill holes in the area where you
remove the Subaru filter. The kit contains the necessary bolts. I drilled 2 holes, works fine.
I mounted the filter mount so that the spin on filter is in a horizontal position, the filter is big, I didn't want it sticking down too far in a vertical position. If you continue to use the radiator cooler you can use your existing hoses.
I prefer using the Subaru hoses due to the formed elbows. I suggest you use the hose clamps in the
PermaCool kit, I thing the OEM clamps are prone to leak.

David

[SVXRide]

David,
Thanks. Just got confirmation from Summit that they've shipped the Perma Cool filter and I should have it by this weekend. Do you have the part number for the Fram filter that works with it?
Thanks.
-Bill

[Ron Mummert]

[ Did you ever hook up a trans temp gauge to see how the cooler is doing?

No - I'd constantly be staring at it, neglecting other safety issues such as actually driving the car.

Ron.

[nubs]

Originally posted by SVXRide
David,
Thanks. Just got confirmation from Summit that they've shipped the Perma Cool filter and I should have it by this weekend. Do you have the part number for the Fram filter that works with it?
Thanks.
-Bill

The Permacool kit should come with a filter,mine did. It is a long
filter equivalent to a Fram #PH8A. I changed mine to a short filter Fram #PH43. The smaller one should be plenty big enough to do the job.

[dromano]

Originally posted by nubs


The Permacool kit should come with a filter,mine did. It is a long
filter equivalent to a Fram #PH8A. I changed mine to a short filter Fram #PH43. The smaller one should be plenty big enough to do the job.

My advice is to stay with the big size, first time you change the filter get a Fram X2 "XG8A".

David

[Paisan]

Anyone have links to the coolers? Thanks.

-mike

[Landshark]

I'd recommend one with a fan. i have a large cooler and the temps still get above 200deg in stop and go traffic or going up hills on a hot day.

J.C. Whitney catalog-
cooler/fan with optional thermostat switch that automatically turns on fan at 170deg. (i'm going to replace mine with this next Spring)

Summit Racing catalog-
B&M cooler/fan, but fan doesn't turn on until 230deg - too late in my opinion!
Flex-a-lite cooler/fan - no mention of thermostat switch
Perma-Cool cooler/fan - has fan control switch, but doesn't say if its manually operated or not

hope that helps,

[nubs]

Originally posted by Landshark

J.C. Whitney catalog-
cooler/fan with optional thermostat switch that automatically turns on fan at 170deg. (i'm going to replace mine with this next Spring)


Where are you going to put it?

[svxy]

I was watching a show about nascar and the number of cars that a team can have and where they want all teams to have one car to qualify and race. Before racers could have several cars to qualify with and race with. The qualifiing cars did not have oil or transmission coolers or filters because the more the fluids had to travel the more horsepower it lost. Are we losing horsepower to cool and clean the transmission?

[Landshark]

Originally posted by nubs


Where are you going to put it?

in the left fender well.

[Landshark]

Originally posted by svxy
Are we losing horsepower to cool and clean the transmission?

do you want to gamble with your transmission over a few hp? i didn't notice any change in power, FWIW. in racing, EVERY advantage is important.

[nubs]

Originally posted by Landshark


in the left fender well.

That is where I have my fan cooled cooler. I can honestly say that I do not notice that much of a change in temperature with the fan running.

[SVXRide]

Originally posted by nubs


That is where I have my fan cooled cooler. I can honestly say that I do not notice that much of a change in temperature with the fan running.

A couple of questions:
1. How "smooth" are the lines going to and from the cooler (no sharp bends, right?)
2. How big is the cooler? If it isn't big enough to begin with the ATF doesn't spend enough time in the cooler to lose a noticeable amount of heat - fan on or off
3. Where is your temp sender located - before or after the cooler?
4. How much airflow is there to begin with - versus if you had it mounted between the A/C condensor and the radiator (okay, you'd have to take the dedicated fan off...)?

[nubs]

Originally posted by SVXRide


A couple of questions:
1. How "smooth" are the lines going to and from the cooler (no sharp bends, right?)
2. How big is the cooler? If it isn't big enough to begin with the ATF doesn't spend enough time in the cooler to lose a noticeable amount of heat - fan on or off
3. Where is your temp sender located - before or after the cooler?
4. How much airflow is there to begin with - versus if you had it mounted between the A/C condensor and the radiator (okay, you'd have to take the dedicated fan off...)?

Answers
1. No sharp bends
2. It is bigger than the B&M 70255 that I have in front of the condenser.
3. Before the coolers.
4. Airflow is always going to be a problem in the fenderwell. I have tried a few different things.I cut a hole in the liner and added a scoop.I have also taken out the liner altogether.

[SVXRide]

Okay, now I've got to think about this some more... might be time to dust off the old fluid dynamics and heat transfer textbooks...
Is it safe to assume that your "style" of driving is fairly consistent (i.e. we can assume that the heat generated by the trans doesn't vary greatly from trip to trip?)

[nubs]

I am not saying it does not do anything. There are so many variables involved. Some members here have stated that there temps average 165 to 170.With 2 coolers mine is always around 180, it varies with grade, speed and rates of acceleration.Sometimes reaching 200 plus.

I guess if it runs at or around engine coolant temp it should be alright.
With a stock cooler it probably will never be less than that anyway.

[dromano]

Originally posted by nubs
I am not saying it does not do anything. There are so many variables involved. Some members here have stated that there temps average 165 to 170.With 2 coolers mine is always around 180, it varies with grade, speed and rates of acceleration.Sometimes reaching 200 plus.

I guess if it runs at or around engine coolant temp it should be alright.
With a stock cooler it probably will never be less than that anyway.

Nubs, is 180 the low temp at cruise? My cruise temp is 145!!!! Sensor is in Perma Cool filter mount under battery.

[SVXRide]

Originally posted by nubs
I am not saying it does not do anything. There are so many variables involved. Some members here have stated that there temps average 165 to 170.With 2 coolers mine is always around 180, it varies with grade, speed and rates of acceleration.Sometimes reaching 200 plus.

I guess if it runs at or around engine coolant temp it should be alright.
With a stock cooler it probably will never be less than that anyway.

Didn't open any reference books, but did do some more thinking which brought up some more questions:
1. any sources of heat near any of the additional ATF lines you've run? Given a single source of heat (the trans), everything you've done to add cooling surface area should have reduced the ATF temp going into the trans, which should reduce the temp coming out - assuming a constant input of heat from the trans. This is why I'm wondering if there isn't some other sources of heat feeding into the system.
2. What's the CFM rating on the fan on the second cooler? (it may be that, other than when the car is stationary, that it's really not adding anything to the airflow created by the motion of the car)
3. The fan is blowing in the same direction as the flow generated by the motion of the car, right?

[nubs]

Originally posted by dromano


Nubs, is 180 the low temp at cruise? My cruise temp is 145!!!! Sensor is in Perma Cool filter mount under battery.


Yes,175 ot 180 at cruise.What is your setup that your temp is so low? Is the sensor located in the return line? Seems awful low.

[nubs]

Originally posted by SVXRide


Didn't open any reference books, but did do some more thinking which brought up some more questions:
1. any sources of heat near any of the additional ATF lines you've run? Given a single source of heat (the trans), everything you've done to add cooling surface area should have reduced the ATF temp going into the trans, which should reduce the temp coming out - assuming a constant input of heat from the trans. This is why I'm wondering if there isn't some other sources of heat feeding into the system.
2. What's the CFM rating on the fan on the second cooler? (it may be that, other than when the car is stationary, that it's really not adding anything to the airflow created by the motion of the car)


3. The fan is blowing in the same direction as the flow generated by the motion of the car, right?

1. The only thing that I aready considered, might be adding heat would be the filter, which is somwhat close to the manifold.
2. That I could not tell you,it is a home made set up consisting of a factory trans cooler from a Ford Explorer (same type as a B&M cooler) and a radiator cooling fan from a Huyndia Excel.The fan was large enough to cool a small 4 cyl. it should be enough for a tranny cooler.
3.I have fan pulling air up through the cooler into the fender well.My thinking was that the turbulance from the wheel rotation would help dissipate the heat in the fender well.
That indeed could be the problem. I want to try switch it but have not gotten around to it yet.
I have some pictures in my locker if you want to see it.

[Landshark]

maybe we need to mount a giant heatsink to the transmission pan. or something involving a liquid nitrogen bath. jeez....these cars are making ME overheat :mad:

[dromano]

Originally posted by nubs



Yes,175 ot 180 at cruise.What is your setup that your temp is so low? Is the sensor located in the return line? Seems awful low.

Mike,
My sensor is in the filter mount just outside the tranny under the battery. I think that is a good spot for heat reading. If I blast up a hill the temp will go over 200, I watch it closely and do all I can to keep the temp down. I have a Hayden stack plate cooler between the radiator and condensor it is rated 30k GVW. Someday I want to move it in front of the condensor.:rolleyes: I have bypassed the radiator cooler, got 20 degrees cooler doing that!!!:D

[ensteele]

When you blast up a hill and the temp climbes to 200, how long is it, and how steep is it? Is this a major hill, or a small one? Just wondered how much it takes to get the temp to climb that much.

[dromano]

Originally posted by ensteele93
When you blast up a hill and the temp climbes to 200, how long is it, and how steep is it? Is this a major hill, or a small one? Just wondered how much it takes to get the temp to climb that much.

The most traveled is 2 miles long from sea level to 1000 feet elevation. Also in the passes on I-5 between Roseburg and Grants Pass Oregon. Those are about 1000' elevation changes in 2 to 4 miles.

[SVXRide]

Okay, key here seems to be as follows:

1. Keep any additional coolers/radiators AWAY from heat sources (exhaust manifolds, disc brakes, etc.),
2. Bypass the stock, radiator-based cooling system
3. Get as much surface area as possible when adding coolers (higher GVW the better - Ron M is running a 16k cooler and dromano is running a 30k cooler)
4. Make sure you've got "cool" air flowing through your cooler(s) -- I think the wheel well location should be okay as long as you duct in cool air from the front of the car - the turbulent flow coming off the wheel won't help cooling like laminar flow from the front - assuming you can duct it right.

-B

[SVXRide]

Nubs,
Checked the cooler and filter pics in your locker and have the following thoughts:

1. Your filter is probably picking up heat from the exhaust manifold - try fabricating a heat shield between the filter and the manifold - use Al plate around 1/8 inch thick - before you try moving the filter
2. You're probably picking up heat from the lower radiator hose where your lines run around it going over to the coolers you've added
3. I'm not sure how much air flow you're actually getting from the cooler you added in the wheel well. It looks like the may not be able to actually flow through the cooler much:confused:

-B

[Ron Mummert]

Originally posted by SVXRide
Nubs,
Checked the cooler and filter pics in your locker and have the following thoughts:

1. Your filter is probably picking up heat from the exhaust manifold - try fabricating a heat shield between the filter and the manifold - use Al plate around 1/8 inch thick - before you try moving the filter
2. You're probably picking up heat from the lower radiator hose where your lines run around it going over to the coolers you've added
3. I'm not sure how much air flow you're actually getting from the cooler you added in the wheel well. It looks like the may not be able to actually flow through the cooler much:confused:

-B

Whew! No wonder I don't want a tranny temp gauge anywhere within eyesight. Somehow I'm reminded of the 1959 movie - "On the beach".
Old timers may remember it. Scenario - Doomsday coming. Western world has exchanged nukes with the Rooskis. Only human lifeforms surviving are in OZ (Australia). Atmosphere heating up big time. The remaining automotive vehicles all had huge external radiators (coolent, I presume), mounted on the roofs. I was impressed by this detail of necessitated authenticity. (say THAT 3 times without random slobbering). And seriously - the film is one of the greatest unappreciated flicks of all time.

Ron.

[Boone]

...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity... phew. (no spelling correction). B. <-- lifeform on the beach. :p

[Ron Mummert]

Originally posted by Boone
...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity...necessitated authenticity... phew. (no spelling correction). B. <-- lifeform on the beach.


Crap! Now you done shorted out my keyboard, Boone.
Do you remember the flick?

Me.

[Boone]

Absotootly... a classic. In the late '60s it made me want to get to OZ to be saved in a small way. Instead I went to Wisconsin. Same-o. :p

[Ron Mummert]

Originally posted by Boone
Absotootly... a classic. In the late '60s it made me want to get to OZ to be saved in a small way. Instead I went to Wisconsin. Same-o. :p


Gregory Peck, Ava Gardner, Fred Astaire, Stanley Kubrick; written by Nevil Shute.
Gawd, why do I miss quality & substance? It's OK. I'm sure Wisconsin's got a little of both. Cheers, my friend.

Ron.

[mbtoloczko]

Originally posted by dromano


Mike,
My sensor is in the filter mount just outside the tranny under the battery. I think that is a good spot for heat reading. If I blast up a hill the temp will go over 200, I watch it closely and do all I can to keep the temp down. I have a Hayden stack plate cooler between the radiator and condensor it is rated 30k GVW. Someday I want to move it in front of the condensor.:rolleyes: I have bypassed the radiator cooler, got 20 degrees cooler doing that!!!:D

For the last day or two, I've been thinking about how I want to install my tranny cooler(s), and it seems to me that it would be possible to get lower temps by keeping the radiator cooler in the loop. My guess is that the radiator temperature is about 175F under nearly all conditions, and when the tranny fluid passes through the radiator cooler, the tranny fluid moves towards that temp. So, I'm thinking that if your tranny is running hot (anything over 180F), then running the tranny fluid through the radiator will at least cool the fluid down somewhat, and then if the tranny fluid is passed through an additional cooler (or coolers) located in front of the radiator, then the fluid will be further cooled. Thus, keeping the radiator cooler in the loop should be more effective than removing it from the loop if the tranny fluid is passed through the aftermarket cooler after passing through the radiator cooler. Does this make sense?

So here is my question for people who have installed aftermarket tranny coolers and continued to use the radiator for tranny fluid cooling: Have you routed the tranny fluid through the aftermarket cooler before or after the fluid passes through the radiator? Has anyone with a tranny fluid temp gauge experimented with switching the order in which the tranny fluid passes through the aftermarket cooler and the radiator cooler?

[sfsvx]

Originally posted by mbtoloczko


For the last day or two, I've been thinking about how I want to install my tranny cooler(s), and it seems to me that it would be possible to get lower temps by keeping the radiator cooler in the loop. My guess is that the radiator temperature is about 175F under nearly all conditions, and when the tranny fluid passes through the radiator cooler, the tranny fluid moves towards that temp. So, I'm thinking that if your tranny is running hot (anything over 180F), then running the tranny fluid through the radiator will at least cool the fluid down somewhat, and then if the tranny fluid is passed through an additional cooler (or coolers) located in front of the radiator, then the fluid will be further cooled. Thus, keeping the radiator cooler in the loop should be more effective than removing it from the loop if the tranny fluid is passed through the aftermarket cooler after passing through the radiator cooler. Does this make sense?

So here is my question for people who have installed aftermarket tranny coolers and continued to use the radiator for tranny fluid cooling: Have you routed the tranny fluid through the aftermarket cooler before or after the fluid passes through the radiator? Has anyone with a tranny fluid temp gauge experimented with switching the order in which the tranny fluid passes through the aftermarket cooler and the radiator cooler?

There were about 14,000 SVXs shipped to the US, and there are about that many opinions on how this should be done. Here's mine:

Early SVXs had a wire mesh screen in the ATF cooler in the radiator. This frequently clogged with debris, blocking flow to the cooler. I've got a '92, and my choice is to put the additional cooler in parallel with the stock cooler. If the stock cooler clogs, there should still be flow through the other one. If you've researched this forum, you know that some have gone in series with the stock cooler, others bypass it entirely. If you choose to go the in-series route, I can't see it making much difference which cooler is first.

I've toyed with the idea of installing valves to switch between and among coolers to see what the effect on temperature is, but the plumbing work seems too daunting and not really worth it.

[ensteele]

Some members feel that the water has a better cooling affect that the air cooler, so, it would be better to have the radiator come first if it is plumbed in series. That way the air would take out the additional heat that the stock cooler could not get. The other reason is that if the weather is too cold, it will help keep the fluid warm enough before it goes through the other cooler. Just some thoughts. ;)