JDM Impreza EG33 Development Car

[Darren]

While trying to buy another Alcyone in Japan my agent has told me of an Impreza 5 door (hatchback not saloon) that was built by Subaru in 1993 with the EG33 engine and the same was done to a Legacy Outback.

I wonder why they waited years to put a flat 6 into a mainstream production car! More so when it's an easy swap and being done to Impreza's even today!

Another interesting bit of info the EG33 was being developed to run in a LeMans series car in the early 90's which Subaru were looking to build before being shelved in favour of the world rally programme they went into with Prodrive instead.

[Alex-svx]

While trying to buy another Alcyone in Japan my agent has told me of an Impreza 5 door (hatchback not saloon) that was built by Subaru in 1993 with the EG33 engine and the same was done to a Legacy Outback.

I wonder why they waited years to put a flat 6 into a mainstream production car! More so when it's an easy swap and being done to Impreza's even today!

Another interesting bit of info the EG33 was being developed to run in a LeMans series car in the early 90's which Subaru were looking to build before being shelved in favour of the world rally programme they went into with Prodrive instead.

The legacy outback have a Flat six this also but this is a 3.0L engine.
The svx have the biggest Flat enginge to the subaru trebica came whit the 3.6L like you also find in legacy models today. :) But i i dont think the impreza came whit the flat six. But i dont know for sure.

[LetItSnow]

Darren, with apologies: Save for the bit about the current Impreza swaps, that all sounds fabricated. :(

[BoxerFanatic]

The legacy outback have a Flat six this also but this is a 3.0L engine.
The svx have the biggest Flat enginge to the subaru trebica came whit the 3.6L like you also find in legacy models today. :) But i i dont think the impreza came whit the flat six. But i dont know for sure.

Keep in mind, also...

The EZ36 is, for intents and purposes, identical in exterior dimension to the EZ30. The cylinder pitch is the same, just larger bore, and longer stroke inside the block.

The EG33 is a much larger engine block, that shares it's bore pitch with the EJ-series flat 4s, and the cylinder dimension with the EJ22.

The EZ series engine is barely longer than an EJ four-cylinder. An EG is pretty much 150% of the EJ's engine length.

Foisting an EG into an old Impreza, Forester, or Legacy/Outback based car was a challenge due to the engine's length. Most of the time it requires pushing the radiator forward.

On the other hand, the NEW cars... Like the current 2008 and newer Impreza and Forester, use a front chassis very similar, if not identical to the 2005-2009 Legacy/Outback, which do fit, and were equipped with the EZ30R engine. Since the EZ36 is not outwardly significantly different in size, and could theoretically fit.

The EZ36 may be a larger displacement motor than the EG33, but in actuality, the physical dimensions are the reverse. The EZ is significantly shorter.

I'd be lying if I said I hadn't thought about putting a Tribeca or 2010+ Legacy EZ36 engine in my 2005 Legacy 5-speed, if my EJ25 were to meet an early end. Which I am NOT hoping for. *knock on wood*

[Darren]

Let it snow..... Yes they were very much fabricated as the Impreza & Outback both exist in Japan still!

As for the LeMans series (not the watered down current US version)
All of the Japanese marks built cars for LeMans and endurence racing exept Subaru (who as we all know took the rallying route with great success) in the late 80's into the mid 90's. Again the info comes from someone with close ties to Subaru development in Japan who can confirm the project.
Do your homework on the regulations at the time and the EG33 engine would have been a very viable and realistic project. Hmm does a 911 not have a flat 6 of under 3500cc and had great sucess in sports car and endurance racing???

On that note I shall restrain from leaving any further posts regarding information gained from credible sources in Japan as it would appear from previous and current remarks some people obvously know more then people who worked for Subaru and partner companies :confused:

[subbieatnz]

Let it snow..... Yes they were very much fabricated as the Impreza & Outback both exist in Japan still!

As for the LeMans series (not the watered down current US version)
All of the Japanese marks built cars for LeMans and endurence racing exept Subaru (who as we all know took the rallying route with great success) in the late 80's into the mid 90's. Again the info comes from someone with close ties to Subaru development in Japan who can confirm the project.
Do your homework on the regulations at the time and the EG33 engine would have been a very viable and realistic project. Hmm does a 911 not have a flat 6 of under 3500cc and had great sucess in sports car and endurance racing???

On that note I shall restrain from leaving any further posts regarding information gained from credible sources in Japan as it would appear from previous and current remarks some people obvously know more then people who worked for Subaru and partner companies :confused:


Hey you never know they mite had tryed fitting them as a trial car for a experiment. But failed due to weight or etc?

Very kean if you can dig up any more info on this...

Ive been told a few rumours too...
I did hear Subaru had thought of going and having another attempt at going into F1 back in early 2000s after Toyota had entered.. It didnt eventuate tho..
I Do remember seeing a old Subaru promo poster and it had a concept I have never seen in any of the looking ive done.
Also subaru did produce a flat 6 prototype way back in 1981 etc

[subbieatnz]

Yummm LeMans series SVX :p

[1986nate]

Hey you never know they mite had tryed fitting them as a trial car for a experiment. But failed due to weight or etc?

Very kean if you can dig up any more info on this...

+1 Auto makers will do many different things to test out new engines or transmissions in existing cars before the final version in the car it was originally built for. However, 93 would be pretty late for anything with this type of "research". It would make more sense if they were testing it out in a different Subaru from the late 80's.

For instance, when GM built the all new 3.4 DOHC motor to go into the Lumina/Cutlass/Grand Prix, they didn't have a transmission that could stand up to the torque and power. So they actually began testing it in a FWD made camaro in the late 80's and as they broke things in the transmissions, they sent the info back to Hydramatic and they continually did this to try and build an auto that would hold up. In the end, they couldn't and they ended up "de-tuning" the engine to levels that the trans could withstand.

I would be very interested to hear the end of this and all of the info involved.:)

[redlinedeath]

thats really intersting, and pretty cool. you never know, back then, manufacturers were trying all sorts of different things, and scraping them, and half of the projects are nowhere to be found. look at chrysler, the daytona and awd, in the mid late 80s, they developed a 2.2l dohc awd system, which was nearly identical to that found in the dsms. sadly, it dissapeared, and no one knows much about it... except taht a few years later, the dsm was released.

anyhow, i wouldnt be surprised if they did do it.

[LetItSnow]

The test mule that we have seen in Road and Track's Guide to the New Subaru SVX is an XT. (FWIW, they'd been carrying H6s since '87.)

All told, as said above, the EG33 is plenty bigger than the EJ series engines and the EZ H6s as well (which are 0.8" longer than the EJs). You can call it an "easy swap", but there's plenty more to it than doing a WRX engine swap into a GC Impreza. The EG33 is by no means a good candidate by size for production Imprezas or Legacys of the early '90's.

It's entirely possible that they were muled up, but with the experience I have with test mules and the pictures of the aforementioned XT, it would be interesting to see if they still did exist.

As for early '90's Subaru being compared to Porsche, or for the EG33 being considered a potential endurance engine... I'll let you sort out why I'd be surprised at any of it.

I'm not trying to pass off your information as fake, but it's not a stretch to say that the LeMans bit can be tricky to swallow.

[crash_2365]

I'd really like to see more on this too.

LetItSnow, as far as the swap goes, moving a radiator foreward and a simple harness merge seems easier to me than swapping out the entire front subframe and replacing all the dash wiring :rolleyes:

[subbieatnz]

It mite had been a special one off for one of for some one?

I know Subaru did a special one off XT6 for The big boss of Subaru NZ of the time. It was fitted with leather seats etc.. Cant remember much more than that.

[svxistentialist]

Let it snow..... Yes they were very much fabricated as the Impreza & Outback both exist in Japan still!

As for the LeMans series (not the watered down current US version)
All of the Japanese marks built cars for LeMans and endurence racing exept Subaru (who as we all know took the rallying route with great success) in the late 80's into the mid 90's. Again the info comes from someone with close ties to Subaru development in Japan who can confirm the project.
Do your homework on the regulations at the time and the EG33 engine would have been a very viable and realistic project. Hmm does a 911 not have a flat 6 of under 3500cc and had great sucess in sports car and endurance racing???

On that note I shall restrain from leaving any further posts regarding information gained from credible sources in Japan as it would appear from previous and current remarks some people obvously know more then people who worked for Subaru and partner companies :confused:

I have to make a comment here because Darren seems to have taken exception to what was said by Let it Snow. Darren please do continue with the wonderful background information from Japan, it is much appreciated by the other 99% of us.

The test mule that we have seen in Road and Track's Guide to the New Subaru SVX is an XT. (FWIW, they'd been carrying H6s since '87.)

All told, as said above, the EG33 is plenty bigger than the EJ series engines and the EZ H6s as well (which are 0.8" longer than the EJs). You can call it an "easy swap", but there's plenty more to it than doing a WRX engine swap into a GC Impreza. The EG33 is by no means a good candidate by size for production Imprezas or Legacys of the early '90's.

It's entirely possible that they were muled up, but with the experience I have with test mules and the pictures of the aforementioned XT, it would be interesting to see if they still did exist.

As for early '90's Subaru being compared to Porsche, or for the EG33 being considered a potential endurance engine... I'll let you sort out why I'd be surprised at any of it.

I'm not trying to pass off your information as fake, but it's not a stretch to say that the LeMans bit can be tricky to swallow.

We get so little hard information from Japan mainly because of the language barrier that when somebody has contacts over there and brings us back information about Subaru development cars [that currently the West Coast Network people are trying to get from Japan for a museum exhibition], then perhaps it would be common courtesy not to be so dismissive until more is revealed?

We all respect people with strongly held opinions and their right to express them but with Darren's long time connection trading with Japan his statements carry weight also and deserve just as much respect.

Please bear that in mind.

Joe

[SilverSpear]

Joe is right folks. There is so much info on Japanese cars that we still don't know.

For example, last time I was back home on vacation, I went to this guy, the owner of THESE (http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/SilverSpear/32421.JPG) with the intention of buying the silver SVX. What I saw it that he imported a front clip of an SVX from Japan.

The peculiar part of the story is that the OEM radiator had ALUMINUM tabs instead of plastic and it didn't seem as if it is a custom job. I asked him about it, he said this is how the car got to him...

I do believe there are a lot of options available in Japan which we never saw and a lot that we will never see...

[subbieatnz]

I do believe there are a lot of options available in Japan which we never saw and a lot that we will never see...

Thats where a 92-97 JDM Parts manual Would come in handy if you could read what it said in Japanese.
Ive been trying to track down a NZ or even JDM Parts manual for ages.
Ive managed to pick up the whole set of SVX FSMs :D

[LetItSnow]

I will admit that until today's posts, I was unfamiliar with Darren's transactions. Digging around the forum, I found clear mention of his trade some three months before I got here. I'll be honest: It's not very often that I've seen someone with a comparable post count be an authority. It seems I was wrong.

I'll go a step further to say that the first bit of the original post can be easy to misinterpret, what with "JDM" (imo, usually implying production) and "agent" being combined with the EG33 in the Impreza and Outback. I'd sure be surprised if these cars were ever produced for the public (admittedly, what I read), although not as much as if the twin-turbo SVX police car ever hit the streets. ;)

And yes, it's possible that pieces like this exist as one-offs... You could consider any given manual transmission equipped SVX a one-off, and those we are familiar with aren't even factory backed.

There's no doubt that the standard life of a test mule is brief. I've driven and worked under a variety of pre-production cars and trucks, some with gas tanks so small that they needed to be refilled after every (short!) test drive, some with flat, black (not flat black) dashboards, and even one pre-production car that was wearing the body of a current production car - you could only tell from the outside by noticing that the gas door had moved from left to right. Most of these had the same rough aesthetics and apparent lack of robust assembly as the XT in the Road and Track piece I mentioned. The only test vehicles that survived were production pieces that were returned to stock. This is why I would be surprised by the existence of a 17 year old test mule.

So that we're absolutely clear, I'll repeat that I didn't say it's not true, but I will express that I'd never have considered that Subaru would think of entering the almost scarcely produced lump that is the EG33 as a Le Mans race engine. We know how their more-than-four-cylinders racing has panned out. The 12 cylinder engine that they didn't build that flopped is hardly indicative of success in that direction. As for Le Mans, it's surely not impossible, but the thought is sure unexpected, and I like to think that I'm not alone in thinking so.

All told, apologies are due if my words came across more as accusatory than as shocked by these ideas. It's frustrating that text can allow for so much miscommunication, and feet ain't tasty. :o

[svxistentialist]

It's always been a source of wonder to me that Subaru dropped the EG engine and introduced the EZ series.

Maybe the difficulty of shoehorning the bigger lump into the Impreza chassis sent them back to the drawing board to make something smaller?

Maybe when they tried out the EG33 as an endurance engine they hit the same overheating wall that most of our racers have been hitting? Le Mans with the EG33 was nothing but a dream?

I can see why with what we now know that you would be sceptical about any Le Mans ambitions for the EG33. However, until they ran the tests maybe Fuji did not know at that time there was a cooling problem? Maybe the EZ series engine is the answer to the problems that Le Mans aspirations uncovered?

They had to start somewhere.

Joe

[TomsSVX]

It's always been a source of wonder to me that Subaru dropped the EG engine and introduced the EZ series.

Maybe the difficulty of shoehorning the bigger lump into the Impreza chassis sent them back to the drawing board to make something smaller?

Maybe when they tried out the EG33 as an endurance engine they hit the same overheating wall that most of our racers have been hitting? Le Mans with the EG33 was nothing but a dream?

I can see why with what we now know that you would be sceptical about any Le Mans ambitions for the EG33. However, until they ran the tests maybe Fuji did not know at that time there was a cooling problem? Maybe the EZ series engine is the answer to the problems that Le Mans aspirations uncovered?

They had to start somewhere.

Joe

Joe, chains own the variable cam market... Not to mention, chains or gears are clearly the proer drive for cams... belts are and always will be a mistake IMHO. The engines I work on have upwards of 900,000 miles on them... All running gears that never go bad or wear out;)

Tom

[Darren]

Just a little update to this post for those interested and who messaged me...
the company who were developing the eg33 for world sports car racing was a company called Motori Moderni in Italy.
It was started in mid 1989 and dropped in the early 90's when the board decided rallying was the prefered route with the new model to be released (as we now know was the Impreza) on the back of the success of the Legacy and world wide exposure it gave the company.

Not much info is available on if the engine was ever really considered viable or competitive and it was certainly never put into any sports car chassis as Subaru never went that far with the project to build a rolling prototype but it was run in a single seater development chassis used by the company. (believed to be either a 2 or 3 year old ex minardi or benetton F1 chassis)

Thats about all I think I will be able to find out as the guy was more involved with the rally car program and only gained the information through collegues working on the projects at the time and was obviously directly involved when the board took the rallying option over other motorsport routes.

Incidentally all the departments that were running motorsport development and special projects were merged in the late 80's and went on to become what we all know now as Subaru Tecnica International.

[Trevor]

Thats where a 92-97 JDM Parts manual Would come in handy if you could read what it said in Japanese.
Ive been trying to track down a NZ or even JDM Parts manual for ages.
Ive managed to pick up the whole set of SVX FSMs :D

I suggest you PM paddlesnz. He taught English in Japan and is fluent in Japanese. He has Japanese literature on hand. Nice guy and helpful.

[lhopp77]

Here is one EG33 based engine that was developed. I don't think it ever made it into a race car.

Lee

[LetItSnow]

Here is one EG33 based engine that was developed. I don't think it ever made it into a race car.

Lee
From what I've read, that was at Motori Moderni design, completely unrelated to Subaru hardware. It was raced, albeit unsuccessfully, and disappeared quickly.

Links:
<Drive Performance article (http://www.driveperformance.subaru.com/version4_3/formula_one.asp)>
<8W article about "failed engines" (http://forix.autosport.com/8w/engine-failures.html)> (scroll down around halfway - look for the 1235)

[K_Dub]

From what I've read, that was at Motori Moderni design, completely unrelated to Subaru hardware. It was raced, albeit unsuccessfully, and disappeared quickly.

Links:
<Drive Performance article (http://www.driveperformance.subaru.com/version4_3/formula_one.asp)>
<8W article about "failed engines" (http://forix.autosport.com/8w/engine-failures.html)> (scroll down around halfway - look for the 1235)

They owned 50% of Motori Moderni at the time, and financed the development of this motor, even casting their name into the valve covers. I'd say that makes this a Subaru motor. They list coil-on-plug, dual camshafts, and 4 valves/cyl as features of this motor (features they'd just developed for our EG). Beyond these similarities, I doubt it had much in common with the EG33, but I wouldn't go so far as to say "completely unrelated".:cool:

Did the Koenigsegg B12 S ever come to fruition, or did the Swedes agree with Subaru that this engine is more trouble than it's worth? That block with a supercharger would be really something.

[LetItSnow]

They actually didn't own any share of Motori Moderni - they owned 50% of the Coloni race team. As well, the engine was an existing design with "SUBARU" slapped on the valve covers.

[lhopp77]

" financed the development of this motor, even casting their name into the valve covers. I'd say that makes this a Subaru motor."

AND Subaru cliams it as a Subaru engine. If this was not true it could be a legal matter. But, even common sense tells you that an engine this complex could not be developed from the drawing board in the times that it was done WITHOUT significant predesign work by say---maybe Subaru.

Some people may remember that one of these engines sold on Ebay a couple years ago. I don't guess it was bought by one of our members or we would have heard something about it over time.

Lee

[subbieatnz]

AND Subaru cliams it as a Subaru engine. If this was not true it could be a legal matter. But, even common sense tells you that an engine this complex could not be developed from the drawing board in the times that it was done WITHOUT significant predesign work by say---maybe Subaru.

Some people may remember that one of these engines sold on Ebay a couple years ago. I don't guess it was bought by one of our members or we would have heard something about it over time.

Lee

How much did it sell for?