What boost can you run on a stock EG33 motor?

[subbieatnz]

Some asked this on another site and thought I would ask here.
What boost can you run on a stock EG33 motor?

[SilverSpear]

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[dannmarr]

Thanks for the humor!LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[SoCal LS-L]

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[SilverSpear]

Seriously now, someone should do a write up and update it from time to time. The guys over Nasioc did a great job in merging all the experience and knowledge in Subaru engines into unified threads.

We need to do soemthing similar to this and maybe add one section to the forum under the title "SVX Database".

For example a sub section in that database explains what aftermarket ECUs have been plugged to the EG33, their suppliers, cost, challenges, needs, etc....

We really need that in order to organize this forum effectively and save on bandwidth through eliminating repeated threads.

[LetItSnow]

You mean like a ... FAQ? :eek:

[SilverSpear]

You mean like a ... FAQ? :eek:

The word FAQ is not as explanatory as what I said above. When you give examples and stuff, people tend to understand more and more what you mean :p

[Green1995SVX]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/picard_facepalm.jpg

[Green1995SVX]

http://blurredproductions.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/sisko-facepalm.jpg

[SoCal LS-L]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/54/picard_facepalm.jpg
:lol::lol::lol:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f229/hellsguardian316/startrek8newc4.gif

[Green1995SVX]

:lol::lol::lol:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f229/hellsguardian316/startrek8newc4.gif

hahahahahaha

[Green1995SVX]

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee275/rocketcabs/ROCKETCAB%20-%20TV/Patrick_Stewart_as_Captain_Picard.jpg

[BoxerFanatic]

Wow.

This has turned into a Patrick Stewart and various Star Trek Expression gallery. The dancing GIF, and the surprise photo made me LOL. :lol:

[Green1995SVX]

http://startswithabang.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/t0m537.jpg

[SilverSpear]

Come on guys, stop it... this is getting childish

[SoCal LS-L]

Come on guys, stop it... this is getting childish

Ok, one last gif or two then ill grow up again...

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[TomsSVX]

Intercooled... prob around 12psi w/ proper tuning. problem is, the motor cannot use it in the upper RPMS where a turbo is going to make it. Soooooo a solid 9psi at midrange would be perfect

Tom

[Blacky]

More gifs more gifs more gifs

[oab_au]

Empty your PM box Tom.
Harvey.

[TomsSVX]

Empty your PM box Tom.
Harvey.

Okie Dokie

Tom

[y2daniel1981]

I swear, I have seen this question so many times. The general answer is 5-7 without an intercooler and 7-9 with one.

BTW I saved many of these pics, I cant wait to use them on other forums

[TomsSVX]

and you have experience with this?

Tom

[Crazy_pilot]

Tom, weren't you running 9 PSI on the blower with stock internals without breaking stuff?

[y2daniel1981]

and you have experience with this?

Tom

Yes I have boosted a few cars before that were not boosted from the factory. Plus I said as a general rule, but did not say that was how it was with every car, and it is a general rule and you know it. Go ask around any forum and that is the answer you'll get. But there is one thing I did forget to mention, if you add some supporting mods like fuel injectors, pump, adjust timing, and an a/f controller you'll be safer at those levels. But of course to be completely safe and run higher *sigh* you'll need to build the engine and tune it with a full stand alone such as the hydra *end sigh*

[TomsSVX]

The question at hand was what can a stock EG33 run. The answer from my experience has been posted. A general response is not going to help anyone here.

Tom

[TomsSVX]

Tom, weren't you running 9 PSI on the blower with stock internals without breaking stuff?

Still am.

Tom

[y2daniel1981]

The question at hand was what can a stock EG33 run. The answer from my experience has been posted. A general response is not going to help anyone here.

Tom

Well does anyone have documentation on exactly how much boost a stock EG33 will take before breaking? Yes? No? If not then we'll have to go with a general statement and not an absolute. Oh and the numbers I was saying were for an internally stock EG33. Even with adding something as simple as an exhaust system you could say an EG33 is not stock because it is not working with the same paramenters/materials that it came from the factory with. Plus there is nothing wrong with adding a little more FYI stuff if it'll help.

[TomsSVX]

Well does anyone have documentation on exactly how much boost a stock EG33 will take before breaking? Yes? No? If not then we'll have to go with a general statement and not an absolute. Plus there is nothing wrong with adding a little more FYI stuff if it'll help.

I have. its called detonation. When you reach it and hold it. You will break it. So you tune to the edge of said detonation until you can tune it for peak torque on a dyno. So when I say that I have run a 12psi pulley and a 9psi pulley and have had made more power w/ more timing with the 9psi than w/ more boost and less timing on the 12psi pulley. That is your documentation. I have several data logs supporting this.

Tom

[y2daniel1981]

I have. its called detonation. When you reach it and hold it. You will break it. So you tune to the edge of said detonation until you can tune it for peak torque on a dyno. So when I say that I have run a 12psi pulley and a 9psi pulley and have had made more power w/ more timing with the 9psi than w/ more boost and less timing on the 12psi pulley. That is your documentation. I have several data logs supporting this.

Tom

Well I'm glad that there is some documentation then, and you stated that your documentation is within the general statement I made earlier. Of course also as a general statement there can be some variation between a s/c and a t/c

I swear, I have seen this question so many times. The general answer is 5-7 without an intercooler and 7-9 with one.

[TomsSVX]

yes there will be variation. but is there a point to run higher boost in an RPM range it cannot be used? I have also documented that the engine cannot flow enough to use the CFMS that my supercharger puts out. I get a charge build up in the upper rpms which has exceeded 15psi. Why? Because it cannot move it through the engine fast enough due to restrictions in the head and camshaft profiles.

Tom

[SoCal LS-L]

Well I'm glad that there is some documentation then, and you stated that your documentation is within the general statement I made earlier. Of course also as a general statement there can be some variation between a s/c and a t/c

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk294/Tombombadil9/picard.jpg

Sorry couldnt resist :D

[y2daniel1981]

http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk294/Tombombadil9/picard.jpg

Sorry couldnt resist :D

Hehe. It's ok. Just saying that the numbers Tom quoted as being the limites he has achieved are about the same numbers I said were general limites for boosting internally stock engines.

[y2daniel1981]

yes there will be variation. but is there a point to run higher boost in an RPM range it cannot be used? I have also documented that the engine cannot flow enough to use the CFMS that my supercharger puts out. I get a charge build up in the upper rpms which has exceeded 15psi. Why? Because it cannot move it through the engine fast enough due to restrictions in the head and camshaft profiles.

Tom

There will usually be a point where the engine cannot flow as much as the F/I mechanism puts out without extensive modifications to the head and exhaust systems, that was never the issue. Yes it is good to have the peak boost be higher in the RPM range, but if your F/I mechanism is flowing more then the engine can handle, maybe a change in size is in order to make the most use out of the boost at hand. But there will always be a point where no matter how much you do to an engine, you can use too large of a F/I mechanism. This is where A/R ratios come into effect, but you know that already. Plus the question was how much a stock EG33 can handle, not about where peak boost is made.

[TomsSVX]

There will usually be a point where the engine cannot flow as much as the F/I mechanism puts out without extensive modifications to the head and exhaust systems, that was never the issue. Yes it is good to have the peak boost be higher in the RPM range, but if your F/I mechanism is flowing more then the engine can handle, maybe a change in size is in order to make the most use out of the boost at hand. But there will always be a point where no matter how much you do to an engine, you can use too large of a F/I mechanism. This is where A/R ratios come into effect, but you know that already. Plus the question was how much a stock EG33 can handle, not about where peak boost is made.

Thats the point of boosting an engine. To make peak torque and HP in all the right places. What I have done thus far effectively has pushed the limit of the stock engine in all the right places and none in the wrong. I can use the 9psi throughout the entire rev range safely. So it still stands that the engine can safely handle 9psi w/o an intercooler and maybe a little more w/ one. This is something I should be toying with soon. But that still does not solve the flow issue. Up until about 6krpm you can run up to 9psi hot. That is a fact that I have been able to uncover thus far.

Tom

[y2daniel1981]

I can use the 9psi throughout the entire rev range safely. So it still stands that the engine can safely handle 9psi w/o an intercooler and maybe a little more w/ one.
Tom

With supporting mods.Thus not completly stock except for the long block. But I am not arguing that you have a badass machine there and know your particular cars engine

[Tim]

http://www.mouseowners.com/forums/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse5.gif

[the_paynter]

I am just waiting on my Garrett 60-1 turbo to get here, then I will be installing everything. I will be running 6-7 psi on this turbo because as tom has said, there is too much restriction in the heads and you really cant push anymore. This is all generally what I have figured out by reading like crazy over the past while.

[TomsSVX]

With supporting mods.Thus not completly stock except for the long block. But I do agree that you have a badass machine there.

So how exactly does anyone expect to add FI to an EG33 w/o supporting mods? You could half ass it and you will be able to run your general rule of thumb 5psi. OR you could do it right and get more out of it. BTW in my world, an engine is a long block. The rest are accessories

Tom

[Johnybeas]

http://www.mouseowners.com/forums/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse5.gif
+1
blah blah blah blah:lol:

[SoCal LS-L]

http://www.mouseowners.com/forums/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse5.gif

EPIC win :lol: I gotta find where you guys get these

[y2daniel1981]

So how exactly does anyone expect to add FI to an EG33 w/o supporting mods? You could half ass it and you will be able to run your general rule of thumb 5psi. OR you could do it right and get more out of it. BTW in my world, an engine is a long block. The rest are accessories

Tom

The question was stock boost. I would always advice supporting mods, but by doing anything to the engine or how it operates, such as tuning, injectors, etc, it is no longer considered stock. I completely agree that to do it right you should have supporting mods and tuning.

[TomsSVX]

The question was stock boost. I would always advice supporting mods, but by doing anything to the engine or how it operates, such as tuning, injectors, etc, it is no longer considered stock. I completely agree that to do it right you should have supporting mods and tuning.

Again, injectors are not an engine. Tuning is not an engine. Exhaust systems are not engines... An engine is the long block and nothing more. A stock long block.... A stock long block.... a stock EG33 long block.... A stock EG33 long block... A stock EG33.... a stock EG33

Tom

[y2daniel1981]

Again, injectors are not an engine. Tuning is not an engine. Exhaust systems are not engines... An engine is the long block and nothing more. A stock long block.... A stock long block.... a stock EG33 long block.... A stock EG33 long block... A stock EG33.... a stock EG33

Tom

To beat a dead horse like Tim does, anything that alters how the long block operates outside of it's factory status makes it not stock. Let's see the EG33 run without an ECU, oh wait, it can't, so it looks like some sort of tuning or engine control is needed, and since it is needed, it must be an essential part of the engine even though it's not "inside the long block."

[TomsSVX]

Seriously, I don't know why you are being so stubborn. The engine can be used in different cars. Does that make it not a stock engine anymore? I am not beating a dead horse here. When I was in college learning about being a good teacher they told me a couple things. One was that some people learn by experience. Some people learn through description. Another was that some people learn from repetition. Sooooo I tried to do all of those and you still don't get it. A honda with an intake is still a stock engine. A subaru with a cat-back still has a stock engine. An SVX w/ a supercharger, custom manifolds on both ends of the engine, injectors, ( I hope you see where I am going here) all put on a stock engine STILL has a stock ENGINE. It has different things attached to it. Those attachments are accessories to the ENGINE. So if you say a stock engine cannot have anything attached to it that was not original equiptment, then there can be NO boosted stock engines in the world, by your definition of course.

Tom

[SoCal LS-L]

Engine: A machine for converting thermal energy into mechanical energy or power to produce force and motion.

This "machine" also includes the air/fuel management, intake, exhaust, control unit, etc to make it function.

"Powertrain" I think is what Tom was referring to as stock..... the internal mechanical parts of the engine that are directly involved in converting the A/F combustion into mechanical force.

[y2daniel1981]

Seriously, I don't know why you are being so stubborn. The engine can be used in different cars. Does that make it not a stock engine anymore? I am not beating a dead horse here. When I was in college learning about being a good teacher they told me a couple things. One was that some people learn by experience. Some people learn through description. Another was that some people learn from repetition. Sooooo I tried to do all of those and you still don't get it. A honda with an intake is still a stock engine. A subaru with a cat-back still has a stock engine. An SVX w/ a supercharger, custom manifolds on both ends of the engine, injectors, ( I hope you see where I am going here) all put on a stock engine STILL has a stock ENGINE. It has different things attached to it. Those attachments are accessories to the ENGINE. So if you say a stock engine cannot have anything attached to it that was not original equiptment, then there can be NO boosted stock engines in the world, by your definition of course.

Tom

Hey guess what, I'm working on my Master's in Secondary Education so I know all about the diferent learning styles and such. I have got A's in all my courses so far. Just because I am debating you do not think you can throw it back at me saying that my students will be doomed. If students are not free to ask questions to try to understand then it is doing them no good to say "you just don't get it, this is the way it is because I say it is like this." I am saying, "here is point of view and here are my reasons." Did you also learn to see from the student's point of view to see why they are not getting it or that you should not limit yourself as a teacher with your methods? Make me your student, teach me then if I am so absolutely wrong. If you can change my point of view, then job well done, but until you can make me believe your way of thinking, I am sticking to my beliefs.

If you pull an engine, all it's accessories, and computer/wiring out of the SVX and put it in a honda, then it is stock because in no way has the way the engine operates been altered. And yes by my definition even adding some sort of F/I makes an engine not stock, even if just the F/I mechanism is added and nothing else, because it again is no longer factory stock as to operations of the engine. Hell if you throw a K&N air filter in the airbox the operations of the engine are no longer stock, change the gap of OEM spark plugs and it is no longer absolutely stock as there has been an alteration, even though ever so slight, to how the engine operates.

[TomsSVX]

Engine.... Engine Management.... Lets break this down here. An engine needs engine management to run. But is the engine not an engine anymore without it? So all those people selling engines on ebay and where have you are lying because you cannot start and run it on the crate? I do realize you are trying to prove a point here. BUT the point is for no good reason other than to contradict what I have said thus far. So now that you are going for your masters, Sorry I only have my BA for secondary hist., at what point will you realize if you try this with your students you will only look like you were defending yourself and not your point? I have said my piece and backed it up with evidence of my experience to answer the question asked. I will no longer contribute to this mockery of a debate.

Tom

[evilsvx]

tom, how much whp where you pulling on 9psi setup. doesnt also affect the type of turbo you are using in order to setup the amount of psi

[SomethingElse]

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR me no like engines:mad:...make me angry engine go vroom:mad:

This reminds me of the Budfreak and DaveyGravey days...without all of the.... ***** !!! im gonna **** your mother and **** spill blood out of your ****ing kids and slit your ****ing throat then grab my **** and balls then dip them in your ****ing mouth and piss down your ****ty neck mother ****er all while ****ing your girlfriend in front of you!

well kinda:barf:

[Crazy_pilot]

:lol::lol::lol:

I can haz vroom?

[LetItSnow]

Here's a hot idea - what if we make our standing question perfectly clear?

Let's say we're running with a stock block, stock heads, stock pistons, crank, valves, and all other internals. Given that a compressed intake charge is stuffed in there, how much pressure can it handle?

I think that's the question at hand. The ECU, air conditioning, muffler, air filter, and taillights (related via alternator omg!) don't count in this scenario!

[It's Just Eric]

The whole stock and not stock....
Pressure is pressure, regardless of what has been done to improve overall cfm's of air passing throught the engine. Stock would refer to the stock internals, as the exhaust and intake would be modified in a tubrocharged setup anyway.\
The stock ecu is the first bottleneck in a f/i set up. You can cram as much extra air into the cylenders as you want...It isn't going to help if there's no more fuel going in. The air to fuel mix will run lean, and the engine will pull timing to compensate. The point it is safe to run boost without a mechanism (ecu, or in the olden days, bigger injectrs and fuel pressure regulators)adding any extra fuel... I couldn't tell you. With the proper fueling and timing safeguards in place to prevent detonation, engine's stock internals, sensors, miscelanious bolt on equipment and all of their sub divisionaries and affiliates can handle 9psi safely.

[Landshark]

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