What to expect from a built motor

[STeeL25T]

Another "what if?" thread. I'm sorry, I know were all tired of question like these.

I know a couple of you have built up your motors with forged internals, delta cams, etc... I just wanted to know what you think your motor is capable of in terms of horse power?

I still don't know what all I'm doing to my motor. Its getting 8.5:1 piston and eagle rods, cometic head gaskets, outlaw spacers, ACL or Lan's bearings I don't know yet, and ARP bolts if I can track them down. I'm not touching th headers, I have no idea what to do with the heads (what did you do?).

I just want to know how much power the a motor built like that (or better with your suggestions) can handle. I don't think 450 hp would be out of the question, but then again how the heck would I know, so I ask you :)

[SilverSpear]

Do you plan to go Turbo or S/C?

[mikecg]

What to expect?

Well, lets see. Expect an empty bank account, headaches during tuning, power levels about 10 to 15 percent less then what you were hoping, a busted driveline, and possibly at least one blown motor.

I may be a little optomistic there. It may not come out that good.

:rolleyes:

[SilverSpear]

What to expect?

Well, lets see. Expect an empty bank account, headaches during tuning, power levels about 10 to 15 percent less then what you were hoping, a busted driveline, and possibly at least one blown motor.

I may be a little optomistic there. It may not come out that good.

:rolleyes:

Mike, do you think this is related to the internals you are using? I mean in my book, if someone wants to do such a project, he shouldn't sacrifice anything in going full fledge with this.

The bank account thing, you are 100% right. But to think that you "need" X parts and don't need V, W, Y, Z parts... here is the mistake.

Either get a mortgage :lol: and buy the "additional" parts such as sleeves, studs, new fabbed cams, valves.......... or don't do it at all... ;)

[Sov13t]

Nobody knows... as nobody has pushed a built motor... to its limits... yet...

Today with the help of HydraEMS and many other new modifications that have been developed... we have way more possibilities.

I am hoping to reach something respectable with my project... but who knows it is as likely to be disappointing as it is successful... at the end of the day you are wasting a significant amount money into a car thats not easy to modify or do anything with.... during a tough economic time... :( not mentioning time and many other factors.

Planning what you want... how you want it and how you are going to get there... is key for any such project.

-Sov13t.

[STeeL25T]

My setup will be single turbo, WRX 5 speed with Legacy GT 1-2 gear swap keeping the final drive. Hopefully that wont shatter like glass I can't spring for anything better than that. Do you think running it in front wheel drive mode with the fuse in would put less stress on launching?

I like the Hydra but I want to bypass it if I can for the time being, it just costs too much. I understand this isn't a cheap game, and I'm no stranger to dumping thousands of dollars into crazy swaps, but I'm just don't want to spring for it right up front when I have so many other things to pay for, then when it done I still wont be able to drive it for waiting for the stand alone and sensors and maps and dyno tuning.

If thats the case then I guess I'd be at he mercy of the MAF, whatever the Z32 one tops out at I guess.

I know you know what your talking about Mike but I'm hoping to avoid some of that... Heres to hoping :lol: I have never built a motor before so I'm not sure what to expect. It seems logical that once its built then its just a matter of how big of a snail I slap on it, but of course its never that easy.

[SVXRide]

Depending on how much boost you're willing to run...:rolleyes:


Seriously, I would think that 8-10 lbs of boost with the engine you've outlined (low level of boost = no FMIC) that you can realistically expect ~350-400 hp at the crank. I'd be careful going to the FWD mode. When my solenoid C went bad (didn't know it at the time) I was able to light the passenger's side front tire up at will and the car is NA with "interesting" mods.

-Bill

[STeeL25T]

I like your car :) I would be looking to run at least twice as much boost as that. This car really is not a good set up for FMIC's though... My nissan project had a HUGE front mount but I drove it around without any bumper support, thats something I never want to do again. I would either tuck in a long but short one as best I could or I think Kozykat mentioned looking into a water to air setup I'll keep my eye out for.

I don't do anything fast so this is going to be done over the course of a couple years more than likely. I've put it off for 5 months so far while I paid off my car so I can start saving some more money each month, I also work full time, go to school full time, and play in a band, have a 4 year old, and I'm getting married in 2010 so I got a lot of other things on my plate right now to rush it lol.

Heres my current status:

-Engine is out of the car in my garage being torn down, hopefully it will be bare block by the end of the month.

-Bought my car 5 speed swaped just no tranny, so I have the driveshaft, transmission mount, 3 pedals all with or on the car already. I've tried to buy two broken transmissions to date but both fell through, I'll start looking again in July maybe.

- I send payment for 8.5:1 CP pistons Thursday. I'm looking forward to getting to the "no turning back now" point :)

Other than that I got my parts list written out for most things I need with the prices and thus far I'm happy with the cost, coming from a guy who has paid 1200 bucks just for mount mounts and drive shaft and 3000 for a front clip before this looks to be a bargin (on paper lol).

I still want to hear the gurus thoughts on what to do for head work while rebuilding. All new valves, springs, etc? I've contacted Delta before but I don't really know profile to ask them for. I don't know of any where to port the exhaust side

[SVXRide]

You probably want to talk to Tom Johnson (All We'll Drive), aka TOMSSVX about the head work and cams. Michael (ECUTune), aka Longassname is also a source for cams and non-standalone engine management.

Good luck!

-Bill

[SilverSpear]

I might be wrong, but to run twice the boost that you are mentioning, you would definitely need ARP studs, darton sleeves, cometic gaskets, and... something to do with a semi closed deck :(

[STeeL25T]

I am unsure on that also, but 8 psi or right around it is essentially stock boost on pretty much every car I can think of, surely you'd think a build motor could handle a little more than that. I ran 12 to 15 on my RB25 for a while, eventually that destroyed the turbo lol but the motor was good, and it was stock with worse 9:1 compression... So I wouldn't think 16 psi is out of the question, but these are a different kind of animal. What do built EJs normally run?

I was planning to do all of the things you mentioned anyway except sleaving, and the closed deck cause I haven't heard of anyone that will do it for us.

I'm sure Tom is already annoyed with me, but I'd like to make good friends with him over the next year lol. I'll ask him, but going to a completely different valve set up and losing my non interferance saftey net are not things I want to do.

[SilverSpear]

I am unsure on that also, but 8 psi or right around it is essentially stock boost on pretty much every car I can think of, surely you'd think a build motor could handle a little more than that. I ran 12 to 15 on my RB25 for a while, eventually that destroyed the turbo lol but the motor was good, and it was stock with worse 9:1 compression... So I wouldn't think 16 psi is out of the question, but these are a different kind of animal. What do built EJs normally run?

I was planning to do all of the things you mentioned anyway except sleaving, and the closed deck cause I haven't heard of anyone that will do it for us.

I'm sure Tom is already annoyed with me, but I'd like to make good friends with him over the next year lol. I'll ask him, but going to a completely different valve set up and losing my non interferance saftey net are not things I want to do.

For such a project to work, or even upgrade it further in the future, I think you need to consider at least semi closing.

Meaning you just put bits here and there between the stock sleeve and the inner block skin. This will stop the stock sleeves from vibrating under heaving loads.

Again I might be exaggerating, I am not the expert in this. But I have read a lot about heavy boosting the EG33.

If it was me, I would do it right. Doing it right meaning a semi closed deck and sleeving before anythign else.

[STeeL25T]

I would perfer to do it that way, but like I said, who does it? Is there anyone who has a semi closed deck EG33? The one RallyBob built might be, other than that I have no idea who to even begin talking to about that.

[Sov13t]

Hmm... as far as I know... YT was putting ~12psi on a STOCK 200k mile motor... so what is this talk about closing the deck for 10#...:confused:

[scottsvx]

I noticed Sicksubie is running 12psi on his built motor... Maybe talk to him?

[SVXRide]

Given that OT and YT have both been running 8 - 12 psi with the stock pistons/rings/block for a while, I would hope that you could safely go to 15-20 with a built motor (assuming you've got a good tune, of course!)

-Bill

[SilverSpear]

Seriously, I would think that 8-10 lbs of boost with the engine you've outlined (low level of boost = no FMIC) that you can realistically expect ~350-400 hp at the crank.

I like your car :) I would be looking to run at least twice as much boost as that.


... so what is this talk about closing the deck for 10#...:confused:

He is looking for at least twice 8-10lbs of boost, meaning minimum 20lbs of boost... it can be 27~28lbs

Do you think the STOCK EG33 sleeves can hold that much? :lol:
Check Tom00799 (http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=41919&page=2)

[mikecg]

Mike, do you think this is related to the internals you are using? I mean in my book, if someone wants to do such a project, he shouldn't sacrifice anything in going full fledge with this.

The bank account thing, you are 100% right. But to think that you "need" X parts and don't need V, W, Y, Z parts... here is the mistake.

Either get a mortgage :lol: and buy the "additional" parts such as sleeves, studs, new fabbed cams, valves.......... or don't do it at all... ;)

I haven't assembled the built motor yet. Ran out of funds getting the parts. I still need the heads and crank worked, and the studs. I've got a stack of boxes in my garage that are full of parts. I was just making a general observation of tuner experiences. Not specifically our cars.

[Mensaf]

Has anyone ever found links to the EG33 drag Impreza builds? There are more than a handful of them running in the 1300+hp region. I'd assume one would have to go through the same build, other than removing water jackets to add to the intake or any of that crazy nonsense those drag people do.

[STeeL25T]

When I said at least twice 8-10 I was meaning to say "at least 16", sorry for the confusing. 20 to 25 lbs sounds good to me, it all depends I guess. I can bolt a turbo to it that can do it, the whole thread was mainly can the build motor stomach it and can I tune it though lol

[mikecg]

If it makes you feel any better, I've put about 20K miles on mine while running 8lbs of boost, with the supercharger setup that Mike at ECUTune put together.

[SilverSpear]

I haven't assembled the built motor yet. Ran out of funds getting the parts. I still need the heads and crank worked, and the studs. I've got a stack of boxes in my garage that are full of parts. I was just making a general observation of tuner experiences. Not specifically our cars.

I understand... even gathering the smallest cheapest stuff can drain your pocket.

What will you do with the crank?

[STeeL25T]

Has anyone ever found links to the EG33 drag Impreza builds? There are more than a handful of them running in the 1300+hp region. I'd assume one would have to go through the same build, other than removing water jackets to add to the intake or any of that crazy nonsense those drag people do.

Link to these? :)

[Sov13t]

Given that OT and YT have both been running 8 - 12 psi with the stock pistons/rings/block for a while, I would hope that you could safely go to 15-20 with a built motor (assuming you've got a good tune, of course!)

-Bill

This is what I am aiming for sir. :o Really hope someone does it before me but if not... expect results maybe mid July as it is getting closer to finish yet so far away :rolleyes:

-Sov13t.

[SVXRide]

This is what I am aiming for sir. :o Really hope someone does it before me but if not... expect results maybe mid July as it is getting closer to finish yet so far away :rolleyes:

-Sov13t.

You'll get there! (Just stop breaking rings!! :rolleyes::D)

-Bill

[mikecg]

I understand... even gathering the smallest cheapest stuff can drain your pocket.

What will you do with the crank?

Just an inspect and balance.

[svxfiles]

You'll get there! (Just stop breaking rings!! :rolleyes::D)

-Bill

Nice.:rolleyes:

[subbieatnz]

Link to these? :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dDJufvLuhw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I0ZAm_1yZg

[svxistentialist]

My setup will be single turbo, WRX 5 speed with Legacy GT 1-2 gear swap keeping the final drive. Hopefully that wont shatter like glass I can't spring for anything better than that. Do you think running it in front wheel drive mode with the fuse in would put less stress on launching?


Not sure where you are going with this remark, in light of the fact you will be running a 5-speed. The 5-speed is a mechanical box. It will be full-time AWD. With no facility for turning it into FWD unless you break something. :rolleyes:
The fuse trick only works for the US auto transmission because you can switch off the rear solenoid, which punts all the motive power to the front differential. Once you have a 5-speed fitted that fuse will do nada.

Given that OT and YT have both been running 8 - 12 psi with the stock pistons/rings/block for a while, I would hope that you could safely go to 15-20 with a built motor (assuming you've got a good tune, of course!)

-Bill

Bill's comment about the state of tune is the deciding factor on what power you can produce, along with the need [not option] to provide efficient charge cooling as you go up in the poundage.

Whipple powered EG33 charts (http://www.subaru-svx.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=665)

Have a browse through these charts if you want to assess potential numbers. This spreadsheet essentially treats the EG33 motor as a pump that develops hp based on the amount of oxygen pushed through by forced induction. To achieve these figures you would need to have your tuning right or the numbers achieved will be lower. They are net figures at the crank, not WHP. Also you will notice if you compare the charts that the figures won't give you the desired hp without charge cooling. In the charts where charge cooling is at zero temperatures are up, often beyond safe limits. High in-cylinder temperatures mean less oxygen ingested and higher risk of pre-detonation and melting pistons. A lose-lose scenario.

Anything that has been done with an EJ 4 cylinder engine can more or less be done with the EG 33 six cylinder, which is essentially an EJ4 + 2. So in theory any builder-tuner that has done EJ engines can do the same for you with our flat six.

I'm agreeing with the thrust of the advice given to you so far. As you are putting money into an engine build there is no point in your boosting to the 8-10 lbs we know the standard engine is safe for. Most factory tuned EJ engines operate at around 1 ATM or 15 lbs, so a built engine with good charge cooling and tuning should be safe for this level. Going much beyond this you are into more risky territory, so I would suggest your engine design parameters should be to hold a safe 20 lbs, and that would probably include new liners and semi closing the deck.

Joe

BTW, before you order the pistons tomorrow, if you really want to go for bigger numbers, should you not be doing what RallyRob did and use larger pistons for a bigger swept volume? :confused:

[STeeL25T]

Doh.. You are correct. I'm not sure what made me thing the fuse would still work on the manual trans. Never put 2 and 2 together on that one :lol:

Main reason for not going bigger is I am not a fabricator nor do I have good access to a shop I'd trust to do it and honing or anything. Also, I'm buying my pistons used so theyre already made :)