TURBOs!? [Archive] - The Subaru SVX World Network

longassname

11-23-2008, 04:43 PM

There is one low boost turbo system on the network that works pretty well. phastsvx has it. There are a couple others that haven't quite suceeded yet.

They have all been single turbo systems with the turbo put in place of where the oe air hose is. It's tough to fit a high flowing hybrid there; you wouldn't be able to fit anything really big. A gt3076r would be sweet choice for that location.

A pair of smaller turbos could probably be fit more easily underneath the engine in the front corners. The smaller the easier the installation. You might manage to squeeze a pair of gt2871r turbos down there which would be good for huge power. More likely you could squeeze a pair of gt2860rs or any of the skyline turbos which are 25 series. Even easier than that would be a pair of small frame turbos. A pair of gt2259 turbos would do fine. If anyone would ever set their sites lower than a 1000hp dyno queen it could be done easily enough. ECUtune stage 2 engine management, a set of exhaust cams, and a pair of gt2259 turbos would probably give you a 500hp svx with little hassle though you might/probably would find you need lower compression pistons to boot.

Johnybeas

11-23-2008, 05:47 PM

longassname

11-23-2008, 06:53 PM

would be a great turbo if you can fit it...i have my doubts though

Lan if I run a hydra with a 35r and fmic and lcr pistons n new cams n such with a bit of porting what do you think I'd be seeing number wise?? Aren't the 35r's cheaper than a 40 series?? I also might have easy access to one for a good price.

odepaj

11-23-2008, 07:00 PM

Lan if I run a hydra with a 35r and fmic and lcr pistons n new cams n such with a bit of porting what do you think I'd be seeing number wise?? Aren't the 35r's cheaper than a 40 series?? I also might have easy access to one for a good price.

The cams are the big determining factor there.

The 35R will be very efficient on our motor and 300-350hp should be easily attainable.

The EG33 should produce about 450-500hp at 18psi. These were with rough numbers so of course, it's a +/- situation.

A 35R should fit in the usual space, a 40R is gonna be a tight squeeze if its possible....

Ninja edit: Looking through things alittle more, the 4088R is gonna be lag-city! The .85 (maybe the .95) hot side will probably be the only exception...

I think the 22 series is alittle small for twins. The 25 or 28 looks alot better.

Also, as with any mods of this sort, a goal HP# is your first step! It makes designing the system alot easier (and it will be alot more efficient).

Dustin

Johnybeas

11-23-2008, 10:07 PM

I was planning on going along the same lines of what tom was planning to produce to sell, but having Big Valley Performance out of Orlando do the piping and such for me and do the tuning.

I was planning on building the motor and running lcr pistons around about 8.45 to 1 ratio but it's all a matter of cost.

I don't know what I want to do because it is so expensive so I'm trying to research options before making the jump and dropping cash.

Sanosuke

11-23-2008, 10:22 PM

I understand that certain things have never been done to an SVX before. What is the most insane SVX out there? I want to set my goal hp/ torque around 600. There are serious limitation, I know, but I would just like to know what kind of things people are running right now and what has been done before. Mainly so I can crush their numbers and expectations.

How many forced induction SVX are on the road? How many 6speeds?

sicksubie

11-24-2008, 08:18 AM

maybe 6 total... Only 2 though that are F/I with a 6 speed. That would be me and Young Tom. If you want 600whp you will have to build your motor, no question about it. Expect to spend 5-7k just on your motor before you even start any turbo application.

longassname

11-24-2008, 09:24 AM

The biggest engineering constraint is physically fitting the turbo or turbos. I think you'll be more successful if you pay more attention to that in the begining.

Beyond that you need to be realistic about building an engine. If you want to get big power you have to build an engine. Propperly building an EG33 is a long, expensive project. Say you want to turbo a car next year..you'd need to start building your engine now. Once you have your engine you can put your engine management on. Once you have engine management working you can put on a turbo or turbos. It's a lot of time and money.

Anybody not looking to spend 15 or 20 grand on it needs to take a step back for a reality check and go back to fitting small inexpensive turbos on a stock engine with ECUtune stage 2 engine management. If you are realistic about it you can make a fast car for a few grand.

I was planning on going along the same lines of what tom was planning to produce to sell, but having Big Valley Performance out of Orlando do the piping and such for me and do the tuning.

I was planning on building the motor and running lcr pistons around about 8.45 to 1 ratio but it's all a matter of cost.

I don't know what I want to do because it is so expensive so I'm trying to research options before making the jump and dropping cash.

odepaj

11-24-2008, 02:46 PM

Might want to get the EM and turbo system running first. It's better to break in the motor already underboost instead of adding boost later.

It'll be easier on the piston rings that way.

Just an FYI.

Either way really doesn't matter alot, but you'll get more longevity out of the motor breaking it in this way.

Dustin

Sanosuke

11-25-2008, 01:18 PM

Time: Miharu needs 6 months of body work, I am planning on doing custom fiber glassing but, I need to find a place to do that. Also planning to light weight it during that process too, chopping up the interior and installing a roll cage with flat tubing. Look at the pictures I left in the check in... http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22044&page=108

Needs a year work on engine and engine management, I know this, I assumed cost but I am going to make it a long project anyway so it will be like making payments. I want to do it RIGHT the first time, therefore I'll take my time. I know I am going to have lots of problems/ setbacks along the way. My goal is to increase the volume of the engine as much as possible too. Pistons/rings/rods I know I'll need to get custom or crossovers.

Anyone here Bore/stroke/port+polish?

Know anywhere I can look at the stock specs and pieces?

Space: I am willing to chop anything out or move it to the trunk for space. I WANT two medium- large turbos in there. My plan is for this car to eat everything you understand? I am willing to go so far as to remove things like a/c, heating, maybe even power steering because who needs power steering? Fitting the intercooler then will be the biggest problem, but you can always move the radiator.

I want to spend a lot of time on research before I touch anything anyway. So I am just going to talk it up for now. Poll! Who wants to see a 600hp SVX eat everything thats on the road, or do you want to see stockish SVXs?

sicksubie

11-25-2008, 01:58 PM

Not to rain on the parade, but a word of wisdom.... Lots of people have started very ambitious SVX projects while having no clue the expense that they are going to see by the time they get to the half way point. Let alone all the way done.. If you do this right you will spend 25k+ easily..... Those aforementioned people ended their projects unfinished and in huge amounts of frustration.....

siceclipse

11-25-2008, 02:17 PM

Nevin

11-25-2008, 04:30 PM

Or you could just get the 2v7 ECUtune and do the same thing but for a lot less headaches an dyno time. That's what I plan on anyway. *shrug*

The SAFC isn't a BAD idea, but its just alot easier to use a solid tune that already works for someone else as a base.

odepaj

11-25-2008, 08:46 PM

why so much???

i plan on "slapping on" one of the old turbos off my DSM or take my friends OEM WRX turbo and just putting on an external gate with a 7 PSI spring.

some nissan injectors and an SAFC would make this car a lot more fun then it already is.

The td04 is WAY to small for our motor. The EG33 flows to much air for that turbo. It would be VERY inneficient and probably wouldn't even get you 7psi.....

Honestly, probably the best cheap turbo to use would be a t3/t04 hybrid. You would still be out of the efficiency range of that turbo, but it will net you some usuable power. It got Phil to a 14.5 pretty easily.

The main reason the SVX costs so much to build is because you're practically replacing all the driveline/suspension parts.

The easiest "small" build would be a 4.44/5mt (maybe coilovers) and then a small decent turbo system (much like Phil's).

:D No offense there phil, I'm just using you as an example since your system has decent power and a fairly low cost.

Dustin

Ps. Have you ever seen a td04 in person? Those things are tiny :eek::lol:

Crazy_pilot

11-25-2008, 09:06 PM

Anyone here Bore/stroke/port+polish?

Know anywhere I can look at the stock specs and pieces?

As far as I know, the stock SVX block is not "Bore-able". Between the open deck design and the sleeve wall thickness, there isn't enough to remove and still have a strong enough cylinder to stand up to 600 HP worth of boost.

Here's a video of a re-sleeved EG33 half-block being milled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhGu0dciwBo

I believe YT looked into the costs of re-sleeving, but they turned out to be fairly drastic.

Now with an engine like that you might be able to bore it out a bit, but the thickness between cylinder is not going to allow much room to work.

Nevin

11-25-2008, 10:31 PM

Yeah, you don't want to use a td04, lol. Not by a long shot. You could use TWO of them just fine, but one would never cut the mustard. Don't believe me? How about a compressor map? lol

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/wahwahrockwah/td04-15g.gif

It's only good for what, like.. 220 hp? And that's spinning it way too fast.

sicksubie

11-26-2008, 07:49 AM

That 25k figure I threw out there was not for someone wanting to "slap" on a small turbo. I was referring to someone going for the 600whp mark or even 500whp. You would need a built motor (7k), Turbo (1.5-2k), FMIC and piping, (1-2k depending on if you do it yourself), EMS (1.5k), Injectors, .5k, trans swap to hold the power (5k)... Boom there is 17k and there is still alot of other things that need to be upgraded at the same time...

longassname

11-26-2008, 08:32 AM

I have to aggree with him. There would be a lot more success if people would be more realistic. To get big hp numbers takes big $$$. If you want to get it done on the cheap you have to plan very carefully to do so which next to nobody has. People spend too much time online reading about joe tuner's bs 1000hp dyno numbers and get all excited and start planning out builds that will never happen.

The reality is that the car those people really want is the 350hp car they should and could have planned to build in the first place.

There's a good old joke that goes around the drag racing community: What's the difference between a 500hp and 1000hp Supra? A tenth of a second.

Seriously, bs dyno plots and people talking down reasonable performance cars because they stay up every night reading about mega-builds are worse for the well being of true automotive enthusiasts than $4 gas.

sicksubie

11-26-2008, 11:34 AM

A twin Td04 set up is actually very intriguing..... Plus they cost about as much as I can dig out of the couch on any given day....

siceclipse

11-26-2008, 11:44 AM

Plus they cost about as much as I can dig out of the couch on any given day....

LOL!

16g's on the DSM board go for nothing.

Sanosuke

11-26-2008, 11:45 AM

odepaj

11-26-2008, 12:57 PM

A twin Td04 set up is actually very intriguing..... Plus they cost about as much as I can dig out of the couch on any given day....

I had two td04s that I got for free :lol:

But then I gave them away to some WRX guys who were swapping back to stock turbos.

Dustin

odepaj

11-26-2008, 01:06 PM

I don't really care how much hp/ torque I really get. I just want to make an insanely fast SVX. Money is an issue but the way I see it is I can span it out over time. I believe in the SVX to make some big numbers, so in the end if it turns out to be over 400 I will be very happy. I was considering not using forced induction and just seeing what that motor could do but I decided that leaves a lot of room for improvement. Is it practical to push the motor then add a turbo(s) later? That could cut the cost and time down until I want to toss on some boost.

Is cost the worst part of tuning these or is it a side effect of obstacles?

Where can I find info on the EMS' available right now?

To do things right you need to plan your hp/tq numbers first.

YT has his EM solution thread, thats going to be a big opener for performance builds around here!

You can use pretty much any EM you want, but theres different costs and work associated with them.

If you build a motor to run lots of boost, but then run it N/A you're going to be way down on power.

And again, you will want to break in your motor already under boost for longevity. It will also be a better running motor.

Suspension>MT swap>EM>Turbo (low boost)>built motor>Turbo (high boost)

That should be your steps to a proper high-hp SVX.

Get all your ducks lined up and start making serious plans and you'll start to realize just how much is involved.

And going through a build with that process will probably get you to a performance level you are happy with, well before a built motor and lots of boost!

Dustin

Nevin

11-26-2008, 05:17 PM

The best way to plan is to get a horsepower figure in mind before you set out for anything. From there you can determine what you'll need to replace/upgrade and you can figure out before you do anything whether or not a project is actually feasible moneywise. That will make a big difference. Not only that but you need to decide what nature of horsepower you want. A 500whp car at 7k rpm and a 500whp car at 4500 rpm are going to be WAY diffferent cars, and knowing exactly what you want is a VERY good way to start. Do you want a street monster or a track machine, the choice is yours! And yes, you can sometimes have both, but you just have to do it right, and spend the $$ where it needs to be spent. I've never regretted buying new parts with a warranty whenever I could, and spending less for the cheaper part I've often regretted. Not saying you can't do a good build for cheap, but you just have to figure out what parts you can spend less on and get the same result.

Always guess the highest price you see for a product, because you seldom get a "sweet deal" on enough parts to actually make a budget build. lol It sounds stupid, but sit down and physically write down what your goals are. It will help you plan better, visualize what you want and ultimately help you get where you're going with less headaches.

The moral is: Going blindly into a project like this is a GOOD way to spend more money than you need to, break parts, and maybe even give up on your baby altogether. We don't want that, do we?

p.s. Sorry for my rant, that's just how I see it.

Sanosuke

11-26-2008, 11:21 PM

Don't apologize for the rant, its the best way to get things out.

Why is setting a horsepower number so important? Why can't I just do the upgrades that I know work and then see what the horsepower is?

My plan of action for a Track MONSTER:

Strip out everything, interior, engine, suspension components, yatta, take off the doors trunk hood.

Do bodywork. Do some custom fiber glassing. Construct custom doors. Freeze sunroof, rear windows. Install manual window rollers in front. Whatever. You understand. Paint...

Clean engine components and such. Measure wear and everything else.

Buy 6 speed transmission, change gear ratios. Increase third and fifth. Maybe others if I can find them.

Port polish heads, buy cams/ fab cams.

Turbo (needs more research)

Fabricate headers + exhaust/ intake.

Pistons, rings, rods.

(need more research to complete Plan A)

Johnybeas

11-26-2008, 11:31 PM

To do things right you need to plan your hp/tq numbers first.

YT has his EM solution thread, thats going to be a big opener for performance builds around here!

You can use pretty much any EM you want, but theres different costs and work associated with them.

If you build a motor to run lots of boost, but then run it N/A you're going to be way down on power.

And again, you will want to break in your motor already under boost for longevity. It will also be a better running motor.

Suspension>MT swap>EM>Turbo (low boost)>built motor>Turbo (high boost)

That should be your steps to a proper high-hp SVX.

Get all your ducks lined up and start making serious plans and you'll start to realize just how much is involved.

And going through a build with that process will probably get you to a performance level you are happy with, well before a built motor and lots of boost!

Dustin

So here's my question, if I'm serious about taking the steps and planning it out, since I already have a 5 speed am I better off holding off everything untill I get a stand alone and can afford the whole shi-bang at once??

Or

Do I take one of the other options looming at me behind these mysterious doors....

Door 1: Take the sweet deal on f/i motor upgrade parts and either,
A. not build it yet and sit and look at the parts as they sit in a box... untill I can afford the turbo and the rest of it all, or
B. build the motor slap on a smaller turbo with piping and everything set up for an almost plug and play replacement of a bigger turbo?(most immediately expensive option)

Door 2: Pass up the deal, save the money and wait for EM and buy my Koni build first and just stay N/A for a while.

Door 3: Wait for EM, turbo it with a smaller turbo, like mentioned before, but run small boost on stock internals, and save for motor build.

Any suggestions?

Johnybeas

11-26-2008, 11:37 PM

...
The moral is: Going blindly into a project like this is a GOOD way to spend more money than you need to, break parts, and maybe even give up on your baby altogether. We don't want that, do we?

p.s. Sorry for my rant, that's just how I see it.

Amen, been there done that, with my 5 spd conversion.... didn't know enough before I started... thought I did but I was clueless....

Nevin

11-26-2008, 11:41 PM

...

Why is setting a horsepower number so important? Why can't I just do the upgrades that I know work and then see what the horsepower is?

..

It's important because many things on these motors are just still unknowns simply because no one has done it. You need to know what CFM your motor makes now, what your target hp. is, and then if you decide turbo is the way to go, what CFM your turbo needs to be to get you to your desired horsepower. From that you can figure what amount of boost you need, you can determine what stock parts would survive and what would not. From there you start to get a pretty good idea of the costs that becomes involved and you can start to get your head around what is REALLY needed to make it happen.

You can never overplan something like this, and yes having a hp. goal in mind is a good place to start. If you just start "slapping" parts on/together it'll never be what you hoped for, and you'll wish you'd taken the time to do it right the first time.

As for myself, I am planning on a 250-ish whp. low pressure turbo system that will simply make the car feel like it looks!

And no, I'm really NOT trying to rain on your parade. I'm just saying take the time to figure out what you really want, learn and read a LOT, and you CAN it it right the first time. What you want to do really can be done, just not as easily as you'd originally hoped. But that's not a deterant either! It just means you need to know the ins and outs of something before modifying it!

Some good books to check out (or buy) concerning the matter are:

Maximum Boost by Corky Bell, TURBO by Jay K. Miller, How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems by Jeff Hartman, Turbocharging Performance Handbook by Jeff Hartman, and Superchargers Turbochargers and Nitrous Oxide (can't remember the author.) These are all books that I bought and have read from cover to cover more than once, and I don't regret it at all. I now have a MUCH better idea of what I want and more importantly how to get it! At least flip through ONE of these to get you going!

And finally good luck with whatever it is you decide to do. All of us here and waiting to see some SVX's put down some solid numbers! Go make us proud!

odepaj

11-27-2008, 03:42 AM

It's important because many things on these motors are just still unknowns simply because no one has done it. You need to know what CFM your motor makes now, what your target hp. is, and then if you decide turbo is the way to go, what CFM your turbo needs to be to get you to your desired horsepower. From that you can figure what amount of boost you need, you can determine what stock parts would survive and what would not. From there you start to get a pretty good idea of the costs that becomes involved and you can start to get your head around what is REALLY needed to make it happen.

You can never overplan something like this, and yes having a hp. goal in mind is a good place to start. If you just start "slapping" parts on/together it'll never be what you hoped for, and you'll wish you'd taken the time to do it right the first time.

As for myself, I am planning on a 250-ish whp. low pressure turbo system that will simply make the car feel like it looks!

And no, I'm really NOT trying to rain on your parade. I'm just saying take the time to figure out what you really want, learn and read a LOT, and you CAN it it right the first time. What you want to do really can be done, just not as easily as you'd originally hoped. But that's not a deterant either! It just means you need to know the ins and outs of something before modifying it!

Some good books to check out (or buy) concerning the matter are:

Maximum Boost by Corky Bell, TURBO by Jay K. Miller, How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems by Jeff Hartman, Turbocharging Performance Handbook by Jeff Hartman, and Superchargers Turbochargers and Nitrous Oxide (can't remember the author.) These are all books that I bought and have read from cover to cover more than once, and I don't regret it at all. I now have a MUCH better idea of what I want and more importantly how to get it! At least flip through ONE of these to get you going!

And finally good luck with whatever it is you decide to do. All of us here and waiting to see some SVX's put down some solid numbers! Go make us proud!

Corky is actually a really good friend of a few of my friends. I've even met him, really cool guy.

He has a book on superchargers as well, its a good read.

Maximum Boost is deffinetly a basic MUST NEED for anyone thinking of this, it'll give you a far greater idea as to what all is involved.

Dustin

odepaj

11-27-2008, 03:53 AM

So here's my question, if I'm serious about taking the steps and planning it out, since I already have a 5 speed am I better off holding off everything untill I get a stand alone and can afford the whole shi-bang at once??

Or

Do I take one of the other options looming at me behind these mysterious doors....

Door 1: Take the sweet deal on f/i motor upgrade parts and either,
A. not build it yet and sit and look at the parts as they sit in a box... untill I can afford the turbo and the rest of it all, or
B. build the motor slap on a smaller turbo with piping and everything set up for an almost plug and play replacement of a bigger turbo?(most immediately expensive option)

Door 2: Pass up the deal, save the money and wait for EM and buy my Koni build first and just stay N/A for a while.

Door 3: Wait for EM, turbo it with a smaller turbo, like mentioned before, but run small boost on stock internals, and save for motor build.

Any suggestions?

Any one would be ok.

Honestly, if you need to be F/I right away get whatever turbo you had planned on and just run it at low boost. Some kind of EM will really help with detonation (atleast ECUtune st2v.7).

If you want to go with a smaller turbo off the bat and then get a larger one later on down the road, try and use turbos with a universal (something with a t3 flange).

A GT3076R would be a decent turbo for low boost applications (while still netting you 250-300AWHP, easily)

I would really recomend a GT3582R if you plan on milking a few more ponies out.

A GT4088R would be good for high-hp with the right build and cams.

I don't really recommend anything other than a Garrett ball bearing unit.

Dustin

longassname

11-27-2008, 07:09 AM

jeff hartman is the guy from edelbrock(holley) right?

Nevin

11-27-2008, 09:11 AM

jeff hartman is the guy from edelbrock(holley) right?

Umm, I guess I'm not for sure on that one...

On the "about the author" page, it just says he lives in Austin, Texas. :lol:

Nevin

11-27-2008, 09:19 AM

I would really recomend a GT3582R if you plan on milking a few more ponies out.

That is the turbo I have my eye on. It is basically perfect for an engine of our dislacement. Sorry this map is a bit small, but that efficiency island is RIGHT in the sweet spot for our motors with a relatively low-boost application. It would do anywhere from 300-450ish hp. pretty nicely on our motors. Of course if you started to turn it up you'd probably need some forged goodies, but you get the idea... that it is a GREAT turbo for us.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/wahwahrockwah/GT3582R_714568_1_comp.gif

I wish I had the $$ to blow up a few of these motors. I mean, to turn things up and to know what would break firsthand instead of guessing. Then I could build a monster with some solid R&D and we could start to see what this great platform of a car is capable of.

longassname

11-27-2008, 09:44 AM

The gt35r is a great turbo for the SVX. You could hit that low 300hp range no problem. You can forget about that high 300 to 450 range on the stock motor though. You'll get detonation. So if you aren't planning to build your motor might do just as well or even better with a smaller turbo.

Just to help you read your maps a little better, not in any way negating the value of a gt35r as an option, it sounds like you are expecting your pressure ratio to be lower than what you would actually get on the street. Pressure ratio is the ratio on each side of the turbo not the manifold pressure ratio. You start sucking 400hp worth of air through an airfilter and you will find you have quite a bit of vacuum on the inlet side of the turbo. That's why on all those dyno videos you see on utube they never have any intake tubing or filters on the turbo. You can't drive like that on the street. On the street you will be running much higher up on the map.

That is the turbo I have my eye on. It is basically perfect for an engine of our dislacement. Sorry this map is a bit small, but that efficiency island is RIGHT in the sweet spot for our motors with a relatively low-boost application. It would do anywhere from 300-450ish hp. pretty nicely on our motors. Of course if you started to turn it up you'd probably need some forged goodies, but you get the idea... that it is a GREAT turbo for us.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e365/wahwahrockwah/GT3582R_714568_1_comp.gif

I wish I had the $$ to blow up a few of these motors. I mean, to turn things up and to know what would break firsthand instead of guessing. Then I could build a monster with some solid R&D and we could start to see what this great platform of a car is capable of.

Sanosuke

11-27-2008, 12:22 PM

Thanks Nevin I will read all of those books.

I want to make the SVX community more proud of their cars with this one. I was considering trying to put the engine into a CG body to make a pretty unique car but I feel I need to keep the SVX body.

My plan right now is research, buy a house with a two car garage, buy some tools I don't have, start wrenching. Expensive plan... yes. Worth finding out truly what an SVX can do... most definitely. The only thing is I am still not sure how far from stock I want to go, I was thinking of throwing everything to the wind and fabricating lots of parts especially in the suspension. But there lies the dilemma, would it still be an SVX or would it be a monster with an SVX base shell? Do I care?

Has anyone ever swapped an STi engine into an SVX? That would turn out good I think.

Anyone know any good reading material on differentials?

odepaj

11-27-2008, 02:34 PM

Has anyone ever swapped an STi engine into an SVX? That would turn out good I think.

Someone was attempting it, I don't know if they ever got it running though.

The only problem there is; in all other Subarus the motor sits farther away from the firewall.

They have plenty of space for the uppipe/downpipe (along with all the other piping for a FMIC), in our engine bay you would still end up having to custom do all the piping.

Dustin

Nevin

11-27-2008, 03:49 PM

The gt35r is a great turbo for the SVX. You could hit that low 300hp range no problem. You can forget about that high 300 to 450 range on the stock motor though. You'll get detonation. So if you aren't planning to build your motor might do just as well or even better with a smaller turbo.

Just to help you read your maps a little better, not in any way negating the value of a gt35r as an option, it sounds like you are expecting your pressure ratio to be lower than what you would actually get on the street. Pressure ratio is the ratio on each side of the turbo not the manifold pressure ratio. You start sucking 400hp worth of air through an airfilter and you will find you have quite a bit of vacuum on the inlet side of the turbo. That's why on all those dyno videos you see on utube they never have any intake tubing or filters on the turbo. You can't drive like that on the street. On the street you will be running much higher up on the map.

Oh, I agree completely that anything above about 350 horse you'd really have to start spending some $$ on the motor. And as far as pressure ratio goes, yes I do understand that's why people typically dyno and just try to get the best numbers that they can. I see what you're saying, and it makes perfect sense. That's not how I roll though, I like to try to get everything exactly as it would be on the street.

Trackside weight reduction? Fuh-ged-abou-dit :lol:

p.s. there are other turbo options that are very close to the characteristics of the gt35 turbos. The Holset HX35's have a good looking compressor map as well.

Johnybeas

11-27-2008, 04:52 PM

Any one would be ok.

Honestly, if you need to be F/I right away get whatever turbo you had planned on and just run it at low boost. Some kind of EM will really help with detonation (atleast ECUtune st2v.7).

If you want to go with a smaller turbo off the bat and then get a larger one later on down the road, try and use turbos with a universal (something with a t3 flange).

A GT3076R would be a decent turbo for low boost applications (while still netting you 250-300AWHP, easily)

I would really recomend a GT3582R if you plan on milking a few more ponies out.

A GT4088R would be good for high-hp with the right build and cams.

I don't really recommend anything other than a Garrett ball bearing unit.

Dustin

To be honest, I don't NEED to be anything, it's more of a want ya know?

I originally was looking at the GT35R when I was originally talking with bobby about it, and then tom had put out about the GT4088R and that he had thought it would be better with a built motor and would have better results. I'd like to build and run the GT4088R but if the GT35R is significantly cheaper and similar results, I think I'd be ok doing that.

I just want to crank some higher numbers out, especially if I bust 350 wheel, then I'd be the same place as my buddy's STI so, I mean it's more of a wow, this 92 can push the same as your STI! Granted it's still heavy, but I'd like to see my SVX be up there because it's so fun to drive and I love the way it looks!

I also love how turbo cars sound and how just boosting a little air back in there can add so much more power! The only problem is with how much all of this costs.

There are so many things that I want to do to my car, both to make it faster and more fun to drive as well as adding nice stuff like a new stereo and maybe some subs.

My head is just so far in the clouds! I just am trying to bring it down a bit to reality and make some of these dreams into feasible goals. I think I'm gonna pass on that deal for the cams rods and pistons because I really can't afford it right now, and just wait for the EM and see where I am financially when that finally comes out.

Because it's not just lets go install a turbo and slap some pipes and a new ecu on it, I gotta pay the guys to tune it and all too! So... my poor ass has to keep dreaming for a while...

lol I am getting new wheels next month and got my 97 grill installed and painted finally, and I'm throwin a few things together next month... so that'll keep me busy.

odepaj

11-27-2008, 09:19 PM

To be honest, I don't NEED to be anything, it's more of a want ya know?

I originally was looking at the GT35R when I was originally talking with bobby about it, and then tom had put out about the GT4088R and that he had thought it would be better with a built motor and would have better results. I'd like to build and run the GT4088R but if the GT35R is significantly cheaper and similar results, I think I'd be ok doing that.

I just want to crank some higher numbers out, especially if I bust 350 wheel, then I'd be the same place as my buddy's STI so, I mean it's more of a wow, this 92 can push the same as your STI! Granted it's still heavy, but I'd like to see my SVX be up there because it's so fun to drive and I love the way it looks!

I also love how turbo cars sound and how just boosting a little air back in there can add so much more power! The only problem is with how much all of this costs.

There are so many things that I want to do to my car, both to make it faster and more fun to drive as well as adding nice stuff like a new stereo and maybe some subs.

My head is just so far in the clouds! I just am trying to bring it down a bit to reality and make some of these dreams into feasible goals. I think I'm gonna pass on that deal for the cams rods and pistons because I really can't afford it right now, and just wait for the EM and see where I am financially when that finally comes out.

Because it's not just lets go install a turbo and slap some pipes and a new ecu on it, I gotta pay the guys to tune it and all too! So... my poor ass has to keep dreaming for a while...

lol I am getting new wheels next month and got my 97 grill installed and painted finally, and I'm throwin a few things together next month... so that'll keep me busy.

Reality is, with plans like this. You might not even want to go F/I.

Push comes to push, ECUtune st2v7 and a GT30R will net you a reasonable amount of hp without having to touch engine internals.

Phil is running his system on the ECUtune software so it's proven that you can run low boost with it. Your limit will most likely be 7-8psi. This is also assuming your motor is in good shape (compression is up and it doesn't burn
alot of oil).

Intake temps. and A/F ratio are gonna be the main things to watch if you do this. You really want to keep away from detonation.

Dustin

Sanosuke

11-28-2008, 02:00 PM

Yeah detonation sucks.

What kind of rings are on the market for SVXs? Are the stock piston rings capable of sealing 350 horses or more?

longassname

11-28-2008, 03:50 PM

There is nothing wrong with OE rings but most svx's on the road are 92's with loads of miles and compression below what is spec'ed as acceptable by the factory service manual. Compression drops mainly because the cylinders go out of round (yes even though you can still see crosshatching). That's why there are guys on the network who swear their SVX's run great on regular while others of us know our cars run terribly on regular--the cars that run on regular have 120psi cylinder pressure instead of 170-200. Boxer engine cylinders wear on the tops and bottoms.

To get the cylinders round again they need to be honed out to at least 97mm. I can get 97mm oe style rings but still have to get heavy moly coating on the piston sides to close the sidewall clearances back up when someone wants an oe piston build. The other option for an oe piston build is to get oe oversized pistons and rings which come in .25mm and .5mm oversizes.

Of course if you are starting with 170 to 200psi of cylinder pressure you're good to go from the get go.

Camshaft design plays a big role in preventing detonation but I stopped explaining that kind of stuff in depth because certain people started running around multiple forums using what they learned from me to pretend like they are experts at things they don't understand.

Yeah detonation sucks.

What kind of rings are on the market for SVXs? Are the stock piston rings capable of sealing 350 horses or more?

Johnybeas

12-01-2008, 04:21 PM

Reality is, with plans like this. You might not even want to go F/I.

Push comes to push, ECUtune st2v7 and a GT30R will net you a reasonable amount of hp without having to touch engine internals.

Phil is running his system on the ECUtune software so it's proven that you can run low boost with it. Your limit will most likely be 7-8psi. This is also assuming your motor is in good shape (compression is up and it doesn't burn
alot of oil).

Intake temps. and A/F ratio are gonna be the main things to watch if you do this. You really want to keep away from detonation.

Dustin

Thanks for the advice, I'm gonna do some heavy thinking, for now I'm sticking with suspension, new wheels and some minor aesthetic changes.

I'm gonna save for another year probably, maybe more since I'm probably looking at getting engaged soon, and well... that's a lot of money right there.

So, I'll be watching progress on f/i and see if maybe in a year or so I'll jump on it.
... I stopped explaining that kind of stuff in depth because certain people started running around multiple forums using what they learned from me to pretend like they are experts at things they don't understand.

lol... just like people, read a few things on the internet that an expert with years of experience writes and instantly believe they are just as qualified!

I for one, feel like a newb even with the things I know, I like to keep my mouth shut except to ask questions and try and learn from people who DO know. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us lan! You are a great asset to this community and this site!

Sanosuke

12-03-2008, 11:25 PM

Well thanks for the advice. I need to research more, plan better. I am going to get the car at my residence before I do anything anyway so that means driving it across the US. PA to AZ, some where like 2371 miles, 3815 km. W/e.

My research line goes;
Body work + fiberglassing + light weighting,
Power creation + Engine management,
Power to the floor + differentials + axle/ lug/ wheel options (can you put modern diffs like STi DCCD in SVX?),
Suspension + coil overs + all minor and major parts,
Brakes + rotors + that stuff,
Stickers + Lambo doors + large wings + sick nasty body kits!:lol: jk.... I might put vertical doors on it...

subbieatnz

12-04-2008, 02:43 AM

actually i wonder how many people check there compression on there svx

sicksubie

12-04-2008, 06:48 AM

longassname

12-04-2008, 07:50 AM

oooh you don't own an svx yet.....

Your list needs correction then. Typically when you buy an SVX the first several thousand dollars go to repairs you were unaware were needed.

Sanosuke

12-04-2008, 01:06 PM

actually i wonder how many people check there compression on there svx

Stock before modifications?

sicksubie

12-05-2008, 11:03 AM

Yes, as that is when it would be important to know....

Johnybeas

12-06-2008, 03:29 AM

oooh you don't own an svx yet.....

Your list needs correction then. Typically when you buy an SVX the first several thousand dollars go to repairs you were unaware were needed.

too true, too true!
my parents got mine for about 2500 more or less, then about 2K of repairs went in before they let me drive it for more than a spin around the block.

Johnybeas

12-06-2008, 03:31 AM

subbieatnz

12-06-2008, 03:31 AM

Stock before modifications?

Stock. Ive never checked any of mine. I dont even think i could even get my compression tester in there with motor in place :confused:

sicksubie

12-06-2008, 08:30 AM

yeah you can... Most shops charge 100-125 to check the compression on a svx

sicksubie

12-06-2008, 08:31 AM

A buddy of mine who's an STI owner brought up another turbo to me last night and I thought I'd run it buy you all and see if any of you had heard of it. It was a Borgwarner that he said was between a garret gt30 and a gt35 in size and such. Any thoughts??

If you are putting it on a built eg33 than it would be a waste of money, but for a stock motor it should be decent....

Johnybeas

12-06-2008, 09:17 PM

compared to doing a 35R on a non built motor? which would you prefer bobby?

sicksubie

12-06-2008, 09:20 PM

I would do the Bogwarner rather than a full out 35R on a stock EG33....

svxfreq

12-09-2008, 08:14 PM

yeah you can... Most shops charge 100-125 to check the compression on a svx

Curious Question(sorry it's a bit off topic): But how do you check compression and can you do it yourself? What do you do just take out one sparkplug at a time and measure the pressure that the cylinder can create without ignition?

odepaj

12-09-2008, 08:21 PM

Curious Question(sorry it's a bit off topic): But how do you check compression and can you do it yourself? What do you do just take out one sparkplug at a time and measure the pressure that the cylinder can create without ignition?

Yes and yes. :lol:

Dustin

Sanosuke

12-12-2008, 12:57 PM

I do own it now, payed for and all. If I was going to bring my SVX to a shop an get an estimate they would tell me to get another one... All the repairs are going to be done by my hands and thats all body work. The engine runs great.

I don't have a pressure tester, and if I did I probably would test it to know its out of spec. But there are no serious problems with it so its not way out of whack. It doesn't burn oil and the idle is smooth. I will check it when I get the engine out before I tear it down for cleaning and measuring.

Turbos are cool, way cool.

cozykat

01-22-2009, 07:08 PM

bump because I find this all interesting and I am about to build my motor.

kowitz

01-23-2009, 01:13 PM

How much boost is it possible to run on a stock motor?(somewhat reliably)

And roughly how much power(both hp and tq) can be expected?

Cost?

Freeman

01-23-2009, 01:25 PM

Isn't it like 8 or 10 psi?

crusader8

01-23-2009, 03:10 PM

Compression test is easy and the tested is $35 from autozone.

JaySVX

01-23-2009, 04:18 PM

9lb i believe most are running. I think it was 12lb that YT shattered his piston. OT I think may have had 12lb on his setup successfully though. These are SC numbers, but you get the drift. YT's car on 9lb would be plenty fast for me.

kowitz

01-23-2009, 04:31 PM

so I could safely run around 8psi on a stock motor.

How much will this cost, and how much power is to be expected?

odepaj

01-23-2009, 05:55 PM

so I could safely run around 8psi on a stock motor.

How much will this cost, and how much power is to be expected?

Cost depends on alot of things.

Right now about the cheapest FI setup on the forums is Phil (Phast SVX). Last I read he was running 3.5-4.5psi which was good for a 14.5sec 1/4mile.

This was with a Forester(?) 5mt, ECUtune St 2v7F, and a low cost turbo setup.

He has purchased a slightly larger turbo now and could easily run 8psi.

I think with the Hydra system now we can see higher amounts of pressure run into the cylinders. Intercooling and more control on timing and afr's will lower the chances of detonation and we will see ring lands lasting longer.

"Longer" being the keyword there. None of this stuff is a sure-fire way around built internals.

Dustin

kowitz

01-23-2009, 09:07 PM

Well I am planning on swapping the eg33 into my 98 impreza...so it should be quick anyway.

But Im thinking about a turbo setup for later on.

longassname

01-31-2009, 06:45 PM

That is a trickier question than it seems. Different engines have performed differently. We saw as much as 70 wheel hp differnces between cars running the stage 3 prototypes. With some experience now I've noticed a large variation in cylinder pressures between different eg33's and a large variation in the oil clearances that came out of the factory. We've also seen a large difference in how well different cars handle ignition timing. That's part of what inspired me to release the new aggressive tuning that for the most part skips the learning of ignition advance and just puts it all in to begin with.

The reality is that most SVX engines that haven't been taken apart these days are on the verge of head gasket failure anyway just because of age so anyone who is serious about it builds an engine. Even with a built engine some attention needs to be spent to ensure that your ecu is actually applying the timing that your engine needs--if it doesn't then it both runs hot and slower than it should.

Personally, I woulndn't recomend trying to put forced induction on a stock engine. Chances are the engine could use some attention first. Phil has posted the info on how to redo the shift maps for the SVX TCU and I have posted some good shift maps for the US market SVX's and I have bullet proof transmissions. If you want to make a fast track car out of an SVX build a bullet proof drive train and get a big nitrous kit.

How much boost is it possible to run on a stock motor?(somewhat reliably)

And roughly how much power(both hp and tq) can be expected?

Cost?

BackWoodsBob

09-28-2012, 11:15 AM

Also, as with any mods of this sort, a goal HP# is your first step! It makes designing the system alot easier (and it will be alot more efficient).
Dustin

Given that I have a goal hp in mind, I'd like some reassurance that my path is efficient and lets me reach my goal.

Goal HP: 3-375hp stock compression, for now ;)
Lan stage 2
suggested MAF and injectors.
Detchwerks 225pump
GT30r remote mount.

My target spool RPM range is around 3,000rpm. Full spool no later than 4k with a redline raised to 7500. Major exhaust porting as well, UEL headers. OEM primaries mated to 2.25" secondaries to 3" catback.

Currently the engine has been ripped apart down to the halves and re-sealed, new gaskets including HG's. No leaks, no burnt oil, no weird noises. I should do a compression test, haven't got a tester at the moment however.

SVXRide

09-28-2012, 01:14 PM

Given that I have a goal hp in mind, I'd like some reassurance that my path is efficient and lets me reach my goal.

Goal HP: 3-375hp stock compression, for now ;)
Lan stage 2
suggested MAF and injectors.
Detchwerks 225pump
GT30r remote mount.

My target spool RPM range is around 3,000rpm. Full spool no later than 4k with a redline raised to 7500. Major exhaust porting as well, UEL headers. OEM primaries mated to 2.25" secondaries to 3" catback.

Currently the engine has been ripped apart down to the halves and re-sealed, new gaskets including HG's. No leaks, no burnt oil, no weird noises. I should do a compression test, haven't got a tester at the moment however.

Hi Bob,

Since you're starting up your own effort, you might want to start a dedicated thread instead of posting into threads that are several years old.:cool: It does look like you're going to have some fun!

Bill

bazza

09-29-2012, 07:04 AM

..........................

BackWoodsBob

10-01-2012, 10:34 AM

If you're going to turbo the EG33, then run a full aftermarket ecu - then the tune can be completely tuned to your setup which has major benefits.

The GT30R is fine for about 4-7 psi but bare in mind for this engine - it's a ridiculously small turbo. I'm running it's much bigger brother (GT35R) and even that's ridiculously small for these 3.3L's. GT40R+ is what these engines really need haha.

The stock cams are quite nasty and unless you run very low boost it probably won't pull to 7K. Also bare in mind you're aiming for 350 hp atw? That's about 260 kw atw which is about 8-9 psi with the GT35R and it only pulls to about 5800-6000 rpm before the power dies due to the cams. With the GT30R you'll prolly be around 10-12 psi for the same power and it will also hit the brick wall due to cams and or the turbo being to small.

Weird, from my research the GT30 would be perfect for a remote mount pushing 8psi. It would have a lower spool, but is somewhere between a TD05 20G and a TD06 20G.

It should be able to feed the engine well into the 6k range.

What, in regards to cams, causes it to not pull that high? Float? If so, I've read someone changing out the springs for turbo valve springs which are stiffer.

I have 0 tuning experience, so it would be better for me to start off on a Lan chip. Unless there is a tuning thread I overlooked which explains in simple terms how to tune and what changing specific parameters does. I don't have access to a dyno and don't have the wires necessary for a select monitor due to my wire harness being hacked by the original owner.

BackWoodsBob

10-01-2012, 10:35 AM

Hi Bob,

Since you're starting up your own effort, you might want to start a dedicated thread instead of posting into threads that are several years old.:cool: It does look like you're going to have some fun!

Bill

That's the plan :).
I'd rather bump an older thread, than to start a new thread that wont have updates for several months. At least until I land a second job and start the ball rolling.

Best to not leave too much anticipation in the air, otherwise people lose interest :).

bazza

10-01-2012, 10:52 PM

.....................

BackWoodsBob

10-02-2012, 07:58 AM

This is a 3.3l, not a pissy little 4 banger 2.5l. Everything big on 2.5 l is now small on 3.3l.

Lol valve float - issue is the cam duration and lift.

Hmm... I figured at those RPMS the valves would float.
Could you point me to a thread where they discuss that valve duration and lift is out of whack for 6-7k rpm operation?

It was my understanding that FI would allow the EG to make power clear to a 7k fuel cut. If the valves didn't float that is.

I also read the thread about the remote mount using the GT35R and he doesn't see positive pressure until almost 3700rpm. I'd rather run out of breath a bit sooner, then wait until almost 4,000rpm for boost.

bazza

10-02-2012, 09:37 AM

.......................

BackWoodsBob

10-02-2012, 09:38 AM

Thanks for the insults :).

I never claimed to be an expert, but thanks for the advice jackass.

bazza

10-08-2012, 06:32 PM

...............

BackWoodsBob

10-09-2012, 09:23 AM

Have a look at what you've said thus far:
* You have no tuning experience yet you want to run an ECU that may cause detonation and destroy your setup.
* You want to run the stock cams that pull to about 5500 - 6000 rpm before falling over. They need regrind etc to get them to go to 7500 rpm and keep pulling.
* You want to run a small turbo that will run out of puff at 4000 rpm and be undriveable due to being to responsive.

Take a step back and think about it. As I said it is far better if you spend the coin and learn - to many people research, think they know and then build a disaster - seen it a hundred times on numerous forums I spend time on. Far better to build up to a "full on" build with small steps over time because you'll then understand everything properly and from this you'll end up with a far better result.

As for a the turbo hitting full boost at 3750 rpm... boost is a measure of restriction... not power. My setup for example makes more power than a stock SVX @ 3100 rpm (and we know how nice the SVX pulls) and the turbo is at 3-4 psi, nowhere full boost of 15 psi.

Like I said, point me to the thread or post, or website where a discussion based on turbo cams for the EG33 is on-going or has gone on. I'll gladly read.

The only ecu I want to run is the stock setup, tuned by LAN. So, not sure where you thought I was running a different ecu at:confused:.

Weird about the turbo, I've asked several people with tuning experience after explaining my goals, they have said that a GT30r would work, but would have very little overhead compared to a GT35r, but that for my application it would be great.

I'm all for learning, which is why I stalk Harvey's past posts :D.

I have no intention of wasting money, so if you have knowledge to enlighten me with, do it. If not, leave me alone and I'll fall from the nest, get back up and flap my happy ass to clearer sky's.

*edit*
After doing some more reading in the cam threads. Utilizing the iris valve with stock cams would achieve my goal. As far as making power at 7k rpms. Well, I'll save that for the rebuilt EG33 I plan on doing this coming summer. At that point, I'll have enough for custom cams and such.

My desired RPM range will be from 5000-7000 rpm. Aiming for a very flat torque curve and an increasing power curve... similar to Porsche GT3's:

That's a post by you, and after watching your track day video, our goals are different. My desired power increase is from 3000,+ rpm. I'm not shooting for the moon power wise, neither RPM wise on this stock block.

bazza

10-09-2012, 04:54 PM

..................

oab_au

10-09-2012, 06:45 PM

bazza

10-09-2012, 07:22 PM

...................

BackWoodsBob

10-10-2012, 08:46 AM

The issue with the stock ecu with a chip is it will blow up unless Mike sits on the dyno and custom tunes it for you. In reality you need a full after market ecu and a proper tune from top to bottom.

You did originally say you wanted power to 7500 rpm?!!

I'm not sure why Mike would have his chip rated at up to 500hp then.... wouldn't that be false advertising?

The Stage 2 package enables engine management for close to 500hp output, opening the doors for engine modifications and forced induction systems such as turbochargers and superchargers

That's quoted directly from LAN's site. I understand pushing that high would require internals, duh. :lol:

What has been shown over the years, that the turbo has been tried on the EG33, is that its the exhaust pipes that cause it to die at 5000.

The early ones used or copied a kit that was around at that time. This kit had the two engine pipes joined together then going to the turbine. This caused interference between the cylinders so that a cylinders overlap would be pressured by the exhaust pressure from the previous cylinder.

The fix was to run the two engine pipes right up to the turbine before they joined. When this was done the engine ran up the range OK.

This is the problem with turbos on a six cylinder engine, and why twin turbos are the go on sixes.

Harvey.

Interesting. I haven't heard of that issue before. My plan is to remote mount, which is why I've chosen the GT30R. Being that far from the engine the exhaust gasses are cooler, more dense but also not expanding any more.

I want the instant punch of boost, so going larger than an GT35r remote mount would be pretty dumb imho. I guess when the time comes I'll have to sit on the phone with garrett and talk...

dragoontwo

10-10-2012, 10:44 AM

I'm not sure why Mike would have his chip rated at up to 500hp then.... wouldn't that be false advertising?

This is because the MAF he has the stage 2 chips calibrated to run on can only flow enough air for up to 500 HP.

BackWoodsBob

10-10-2012, 11:45 AM

If I ever want to push that high it will be with a fully built engine. Thanks for the post!

icingdeath88

10-10-2012, 03:14 PM

500 hp is unrealistic for one of LAN's stage 2 chips. The 370cc injectors ought to max out at (recalling from memory here) just under 400 hp. Maybe can squeeze out a bit more if you bump up the pressure with an adjustable FPR.

The stage 3 chip used two MAFs and 550cc injectors and could do 500 hp probably.

But you are definitely better off going with a standalone, that is tuned for the specific engine/setup you have. Much safer to run it that way too.

bazza

10-10-2012, 04:44 PM

.........................

oab_au

10-10-2012, 08:12 PM

This is incorrect.

That would be right, I make a statement of fact, you tell me “This is incorrect.”:rolleyes: then go on and tell us how a different engine runs, accompanied by a lot of irreverent stuff that tells me that you obversely don’t understand how the system works, so I will be nice and explain it to you.:)

When the two engine pipes are connected close to the manifolds, the cylinders on each side are pressurising the exhaust system every 120*. This means that when a cylinders exhaust valve opens to evacuate its cylinder at 60* BBDC, and the piston has progress to 60* ABDC, the next cylinder opens its exhaust valve to push gas into that cylinder.

This can be handled as the piston will push this gas back out the exhaust port, and as long as the boost pressure is higher than the exhaust pressure it will continue to induct air/fuel and keep running. But as the rpm and boost pressure, and exhaust volume rises, the exhaust pressure exceeds the boost, and the piston then pushes the exhaust gas into the inlet manifold to foul the charge, and the engine goes flat.

To prevent this we have to have the engine pipes long enough before they join, so that by the time that gas gets to the next cylinder, its exhaust valve has closed and it is not affected.

It is this fact that makes car designers to use two turbos on a six. If they were to use the long engine pipes that a single needs, they would loose too much energy from the gas. Mounting one on each pair of three exhaust manifolds has the highest energy applied to the turbine, with no interference.

Now looking at what you have said.
“Perrin for example with their H6 made power to 6000-7000 rpm with they're turbo setup. I modelled my original headers off theirs and the EG33 only made increasing power to 4500 rpm and got worse as boost went up. I've also tried three different design of extractors pipe with the merge moving with no real change in peak rpm. Perin however increase their power all the way to 6-7K at more boost that what I'm running.

Here you are trying to copy a different engines system and apply it to the EG33. Then wondering why it didn’t work.

Further a quote from Perrin talking about his turbo H6 setup: ".. and at 5500 the car came to life! It was a little scary, kind of like a huge turbo with big lag."

The kick at 5500 rpm was when they turned on the AVLS (Subaru VTEC) which proves without a doubt that the stock EG33 cam is not up to the task
and is exactly why I had mine reground to suit better flow at high rpm.

So here you are you are going to copy the cams of a different engine without knowing why. I do wonder if Perrin knew.
If you looked into this engine you would have found that the inlet cam timing up to 5000 is, Opens 47* BTDC closes 23* ABDC.
This timing will only make the situation worst, as with the inlet valve open so early, the piston will push the gas back into the inlet manifold. When the cam goes to retard, the inlet valve timing is, Opens 3* ATDC, Closes 73* ABDC.
With this timing the exhaust valve closes as the inlet opens, so the interference will not happen.
So it is no wonder that the engine started to work at 5000, but you in your wisdom have decided that it was just a case of using a longer duration, so you will copy that, with out knowing what it is all about.

Plus then you look at the specs compared to a stock WRX or STI cam the stock EG33 cam just doesn't have it in terms of lift and duration. It's fine for the IRIS valve and NA mode but no good when you strap a turbo to it and want it to pull to 7000 rpm.

Phil did ok with standard cams.

E85 and 15lbs of boost. It is ridiculous. No knock and more power you could ever dream of. Slow burning so less tensile pressure than gasoline and cool at RBT. No need to build a motor for thousands of dollars with this kind of performance and torque.
unbelievable.....it pulls to redline as it should. its running about 11.7:1 in the upper rpm range
Phil

These are the Perin extractors. This is version 2 which pulled even higher. Version 1 merged earlier and you are right in some respect as they did pick up about 250-500 rpm of peak power compared to version 1 which merged in front of the engine - however if this was extractor alone or due to tuning we don't know - Jeff did say he was always gaining over the months as it was tuned and refined and it was only later when they enabled the AVLS. However based on what you said they should've only made power to low rpm with the version 1 and a heap more rpm with version 2 - this was not the case.

Well if you understand what I have said about the inlet cam timing, you can see why it started to work.

Also the reason people put twin turbos on EG33 is because the engine bay won't fit a GT42R or bigger turbo at the back of the engine without a major headache - far easier to run two small turbos and the other reason is the firing order suits twin turbos whereas the EJ2X has a different firing order which makes TT'ing them nasty.

Well, BMW, Toyota, Mercedes, etc, must know that the firing order on a six is different.:lol:

Harvey.

bazza

10-10-2012, 09:58 PM

.......................

oab_au

10-10-2012, 11:30 PM

I don’t want to mislead anyone.

The first turbo that was on the net was Chucks on yahoo around 99. This had the problem of the engine going flat and the manifold boost pressure spiking, there was another one but can't remember who. Years later when Phil was going to do his, we were talking about it on a thread, and he said that he was going to do his, with the two engine pipes going right up to the turbine.
The result was his Quote, that I posted.

“E85 and 15lbs of boost. It is rediculous. No knock and more power you could ever dream of. Slow burning so less tensile pressure than gasoline and cool at RBT. No need to build a motor for thousands of dollars with this kind of performance and tourqe.
unbelieveable.....it pulls to redline as it should. its running about 11.7:1 in the upper rpm range.”

Both of these engine were basically stock, the different header pipes made the difference, and yes I based my Fact on that, but it was factual enough for me.

As for the rest, you say “Now the EZ30 and the EG33 run the EXACT same firing order. They run the same port design intake and exhaust and the engines are VERY similar.”

The EZ30 is very similar, the same inlet manifolding, same valve timing, but you show a picture of a EZ30R engine that has the variably valve timing. This is the engine that Perrin is using. Nothing like manifolding or the fixed valve timing of the EZ30 or EG33.

So when you go telling people, “that they don’t know anything and to learn from you”??

Harvey.

bazza

10-11-2012, 12:17 AM

..................

BRZCory

10-11-2012, 07:32 AM

Woah woah woah... let's keep the personal attacks to a minimum.

Just the facts maam.

:p

TomsSVX

10-11-2012, 08:15 AM

+...............

TomsSVX

10-11-2012, 08:16 AM

Seriously... bazza, harvey, and bob... if you want to take shots at eachother find another medium. There is good info here i dont want to close this or start pulling posts

Tom

BackWoodsBob

10-11-2012, 10:08 AM

Again as I said, you have absolutely no idea about tuning.

I never claimed to know a lot about tuning. Which is why I plan on using the stage 2 chip until I educate myself on burning Eprom chips specific to my car and modifications.

BackWoodsBob

10-11-2012, 10:09 AM

BackWoodsBob

10-11-2012, 10:29 AM

So Harvey, your recommendation is to either.

1. Run twin turbos.
2. Run separate pipes to the turbo then merge at the turbo flange.

Do I understand you correctly?

oab_au

10-11-2012, 05:04 PM

Cheers Harvey.

oab_au

10-11-2012, 05:11 PM

So Harvey, your recommendation is to either.

1. Run twin turbos.
2. Run separate pipes to the turbo then merge at the turbo flange.

Do I understand you correctly?

For a remote mount, you need to keep as much energy in the gas as possible. So I would use the same diameter engine pipes for at least 24", then join them with a Y piece to the same diameter pipe down to the tubine.
This will increase the gas velocity, and help to prevent any expansion that will loose gas temp.
Then wrap the whole exhaust in insulating materal.

Harvey.

bazza

10-11-2012, 06:00 PM

..................

BackWoodsBob

10-11-2012, 08:53 PM

For a remote mount, you need to keep as much energy in the gas as possible. So I would use the same diameter engine pipes for at least 24", then join them with a Y piece to the same diameter pipe down to the tubine.
This will increase the gas velocity, and help to prevent any expansion that will loose gas temp.
Then wrap the whole exhaust in insulating materal.

Harvey.

Thank you very much. I guess I misunderstood when you were talking about the exhaust gases not being evacuated quickly enough due to pressure.

Now I need to learn how to tune our ECU and burn Eprom chips. Time to go to the electrical section!

Tapani

10-13-2012, 08:29 AM

oab_au

10-13-2012, 07:38 PM

Guys,

This is all very interesting.... mine is a low boost setup running 5 PSI at the moment, no intercooling.

Torque curve is the same shape as stock, pulls well upto 5500 rpm and then tapers off.

The turbo is a old non-cooled T4/T3 hybrid and driveability is excellent - you wouldn't even know it's blown... performance is effortless rather than explosive and suits the SVX chracteristics well. The engine was turbo charged already in 2000.

You with blown EG33s - have you measured your exhaust pressure against boost? I know my turbo is small and am wondering if the expansion side is too restrictive.

From my side this is all just general interest at this point - I will go for E85 prior doing anything else, then a water to air IC.

There's a ton of info available on the net, though.

http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1011_cams_for_turbocharged_engines/

Check out the table especially.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ctrp_1106_turbo_camshaft_guide/viewall.html

Kind regards,

Tapani

PS Has anyone considered a single twinscroll?

Tapani your set-up is a good set for the road going SVX. The exhaust pressure interfering with the inlet is increased with the boost pressure. The type of header connecting that will give this trouble is like this one.

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/h6_build/h6_engine_shots/oldh6headerdp.jpg

You can see how short the path from one side to the other is.

Those articles are good, they talk about the way overlap is not needed on a turboed engine, and the problem with the exhaust pressure, and I agree.

Using a twinscroll will solve the interferance, as the two pipes don't join, and can be fitted closer to the manifold, giveing more energy to the turbine.

Harvey.

Tapani

10-13-2012, 09:31 PM

Well, mine is of the same type:

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=16138&d=1332441421

Also, the carcraft article talks about how cam designs vary with the characteristics of the selected turbo (and the complete setup).... If I understood correctly modern setups may run with a very low exhaust/boost pressure ratio - below 1 while mine is probably 2-2,5... with that kind of set up the cam design may approach the NA world and go beyond (increasing the exhaust duration and even tightening the LSA).

At some point I will go and talk to the shops and try to find out how my set up would change with a state of the art turbo (at the same location) while maintaining the low boost level and stock engine.

Interesting and I think there may be quite a bit potential to extend the torque to the high end of the stock rev range w/o affecting the current sweet area just by swapping the turbo to a more modern one.

Any comments?

Kind regards,

Tapani

oab_au

10-13-2012, 10:17 PM

Yours is not as short as that one, and running less boost, may not be as affected.:)
Yes, I am sure that the system can be improved to just increase the torque, across the rev range, that the road car uses.

Your got the transmission for it.:cool:

Harvey.

Tapani

10-14-2012, 12:06 AM

bazza

10-14-2012, 05:10 AM

:-)

First I will come up with a setup to measure both inlet and exhaust pressure and temperature and map these against air mass flow. Then try to define the design envelope for the most efficient ball bearing twinscroll candidates.

Do not wait for results very soon, though :D

Kind regards,

Tapani

EG33 have one bank firing cylinders 240' apart. The EJ2X turbo has one bank firing 180' apart (1 4 2 3) and the stock header for the EJ2X is near identical to the EG33 header and is what Perrin copied and what I also did. EJ2X header is good for 100 bhp per cylinder before the pulses create to much of a restriction. Means the EG33 is good for about 600 bhp theoretically before the stock headers become a restriction. I saw 580 odd bhp but the cams were the issue. Now cams fixed I expect it will hit 600 bhp no problems at 6500-7000 rpm.

All EJ2X turbos have always been greater than 1.5:1 exhaust to inlet pressure ratio. VF34P20, one of the best turbos available for the EJ207 is around 2:1 at 20psi when you push the boost up to 18-20 psi like what pretty much every second WRX owner does.

It's only when you stick a big turbo say GT35R on the 2.5L engine when you see 1:1 pressure ratios.

Tapani

10-14-2012, 05:46 AM

Yeah,

The two issues must be dealt separately (to begin with). The first concern in my car is the overall restriction the small turbine introduces and potentially the exhaust pressure goes thru the roof and strangles the breathing above 5500 rpm. The stock shiftpoints are around 6300 rpm and the engine does feel struggling...., but lands exactly at the sweet spot after an upshift and pulls strong (for 5 PSI ;)). This I will try to measure and map across the rev range. Let's see what I can come up with.

The other issue is the basic exhaust arrangement and whether the pressure pulses work against or for us - and how this affects the basics of the cam designs. I do not have a strong opinion for now, but the twin scroll might not be a bad idea to entertain with stock cams and the IRIS system working.

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/Forced_Induction_4.html

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-0906-twin-scroll-turbo-system-design/viewall.html

Also:

To summarize, pulse turbocharging is combined with constant pressure turbocharging using a conventional turborcharger in applications that are configured appropriately. The exhaust pulses need to be adequately spaced apart, or else they interfere with each other, diminishing or negating the benefit, the theory being that it is advantageous to recover the high velocity energy available from each individual cylinder's exhaust blowdown event by maintaining the velocity and directing it to the turbine inlet. When these events are spaced too close together within the exhaust manifold, they cancel each other out to the extent that they overlap (one cylinder is in effect exerting backpressure on the other). In practice, a separation of 240 crank degrees is consider optimimum, with 180° being too narrow (having interference between adjacent cylinders in the firing order), and 360° being so wide that the low velocity phase of the impulse allows the turbine to lose momentum between impulses. Applications that utilize pulse turbocharging will have exhaust manifolds that are notably smaller in cross section than those that are designed as purely constant pressure systems. The small cross section maintains the desired high gas velocity and concomitant kinetic energy to the turbine inlet. The ideal engine configuration for pulse turbocharging is the in-line six, with the exhaust manifold split between the front and rear groups of three cylinders each. The turbocharger has a divided turbine inlet with the division maintained throughout the turbine housing all the way to the end of the nozzle section. This keeps the cylinder exhaust events within each half of the divided housing spaced apart 240° (the firing order being either 1,5,3,6,2,4 or its reverse, 1,4,2,6,3,5). This configuration represents practically 100% of today's commercial vehicle diesel engine market. The net benefit of pulse turbocharging is faster spool up and a steeper boost curve. Once the boost is being controlled by the wastegate (e.g.), the benefit is unrealized. Coming back to Bill's question, individual header tubes to the turbine inlet, conforming to the principles of pulse turbocharging described above, is a working concept.

Current internet-wisdom suggests that the evolution of modern turbos may have introduced potential to solve the two issues combined while keeping the low boost levels and the thermal strain on the engine in check. Kind of a "less is more" way of thinking.

The attached clips greatly illustrate the basics of the related time factors which are very important in a road car - also in a race car, I would think.

Kind regards,

Tapani

bazza

10-14-2012, 05:59 AM

bazza

10-14-2012, 06:04 AM

Yeah,
The other issue is the basic exhaust arrangement and whether the pressure pulses work against or for us - and how this affects the basics of the cam designs. I do not have a strong opinion for now, but the twin scroll might not be a bad idea to entertain with stock cams and the IRIS system working.
Kind regards,

Tapani

I'd bin the IRIS valve and let the turbo do all the work. Although your issue is most likely the turbo being to small.

Dunno if you saw this, 10 psi pulls nicely. Ignore the jagged boost and power lines - car was wheel spinning on the dyno. If you put that turbo in a daily driven 3.3L it would be the most driveable car about. If you're falling over at 3-5 psi with a smaller turbo then certainly upgrade. Twin scroll is nice but a more expensive solution and usually for people with an EJ2X 2.5L / GT42R type setup who want increased spool.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/img-110903125602-001.jpg

'E'

10-14-2012, 06:11 AM

bazza what are your thoughts on a GT3576 a/r .65 on the compressor and a/r 1.17 twin scroll turbine? its one of the options im playing with

'E'

10-14-2012, 06:18 AM

the other option im playing with is twin GT2560r with a/r .60 compressor and a/r .64 turbine, i have both options already but your thoughts would be appreciated

Tapani

10-14-2012, 06:39 AM

I'd bin the IRIS valve and let the turbo do all the work. Although your issue is most likely the turbo being to small.

If you're falling over at 3-5 psi with a smaller turbo then certainly upgrade. Twin scroll is nice but a more expensive solution and usually for people with an EJ2X 2.5L / GT42R type setup who want increased spool.

I would not be looking for maximum horse power - maybe low 300s, but to let it rev freely to the redline and retain the N/A V8 feel it has now. Transient torque chracteristics are very important, I do not wish to loose any of this.

So, you may say that the end result should be like a 21st century OEM set up :eek:. Boring, no kick in the pants ;).

Tapani

bazza

10-14-2012, 09:23 AM

bazza what are your thoughts on a GT3576 a/r .65 on the compressor and a/r 1.17 twin scroll turbine? its one of the options im playing with

I think that would certainly work.

the other option im playing with is twin GT2560r with a/r .60 compressor and a/r .64 turbine, i have both options already but your thoughts would be appreciated

That would also work. The only issue with twins is the amount of extra work and cost to get it setup. I considered it for mine with 2 x TD05h's or VF34's but CBF doing the extra work... 2 dump pipes... water pipes... oil feeds and returns. One turbo is annoying enough haha.

I would not be looking for maximum horse power - maybe low 300s, but to let it rev freely to the redline and retain the N/A V8 feel it has now. Transient torque chracteristics are very important, I do not wish to loose any of this.

So, you may say that the end result should be like a 21st century OEM set up :eek:. Boring, no kick in the pants ;).

Tapani

Sounds like my setup. The reason I ditched the EJ257 for the EG33 /GT35R setup is the ability for the motor to give both huge midrange and good top end power. The GT35R turbo I selected is rather small however it's very linear power and instant response across the entire rev range. If you want a lot of power with the EG33, you really need the GT40R or bigger. I could easily get 1000Nm of torque before 4000 rpm with my setup and a bit more boost - is that enough torque for you? :)

'E'

10-14-2012, 04:49 PM

That would also work. The only issue with twins is the amount of extra work and cost to get it setup. I considered it for mine with 2 x TD05h's or VF34's but CBF doing the extra work... 2 dump pipes... water pipes... oil feeds and returns. One turbo is annoying enough haha.

I was thinking of using twin vf34's as well (because the compressors are more compact then the gt25's) and using the plumbing, brackets (but obviously deleting the sequential components) to reduce fabrication and keeping it looking oem as possible

oab_au

10-15-2012, 06:32 PM

Yeah,

The two issues must be dealt separately (to begin with). The first concern in my car is the overall restriction the small turbine introduces and potentially the exhaust pressure goes thru the roof and strangles the breathing above 5500 rpm. The stock shiftpoints are around 6300 rpm and the engine does feel struggling...., but lands exactly at the sweet spot after an upshift and pulls strong (for 5 PSI ;)). This I will try to measure and map across the rev range. Let's see what I can come up with.

The other issue is the basic exhaust arrangement and whether the pressure pulses work against or for us - and how this affects the basics of the cam designs. I do not have a strong opinion for now, but the twin scroll might not be a bad idea to entertain with stock cams and the IRIS system working.

The attached clips greatly illustrate the basics of the related time factors which are very important in a road car - also in a race car, I would think.

Kind regards,

Tapani

Bazza. EG33 have one bank firing cylinders 240' apart. The EJ2X turbo has one bank firing 180' apart (1 4 2 3) and the stock header for the EJ2X is near identical to the EG33 header and is what Perrin copied and what I also did. EJ2X header is good for 100 bhp per cylinder before the pulses create to much of a restriction. Means the EG33 is good for about 600 bhp theoretically before the stock headers become a restriction. I saw 580 odd bhp but the cams were the issue. Now cams fixed I expect it will hit 600 bhp no problems at 6500-7000 rpm.

All EJ2X turbos have always been greater than 1.5:1 exhaust to inlet pressure ratio. VF34P20, one of the best turbos available for the EJ207 is around 2:1 at 20psi when you push the boost up to 18-20 psi like what pretty much every second WRX owner does.

It's only when you stick a big turbo say GT35R on the 2.5L engine when you see 1:1 pressure ratios.

This is one of the things that you can't relate back to the 4 cylinder engines, when looking at the 6 cylinder.

The 4 fires each cylinder 180* apart, so that when No.1 has opened its exhaust valve to evacuate the cylinder at about 60* BBDC, its piston continues to the bottom, and is on the way up the bore, 60*from the top, when, 180* later, No.2 opens its exhaust valve to pressurise the system, pushing gas into the No.1 cylinder. So the piston has 60* to push the gas back out.

The 6 cylinder fires each cylinder 120* apart. So when it opens No.1 exhaust at 60* BBDC. its piston is only at 60* ABDC when the No.2 opens to pump up the pressure in No 1. that now has 120* to push the gas back out.

So the interference pressure hits the 6 cyl 60* earlier, to foul the charge. That’s why the pipe connecting the two sides has to be long enough to delay the gas pressure from getting to the other side, till its piston is closer to the top of the bore.

The EZ30R that Perrin used is in another situation as it has variable inlet valve timing, and lift.

Low speed inlet timing.
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af217/HARVEY141/EZ30Rfullyadvanced.jpg

High speed inlet timing.
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af217/HARVEY141/EZ30Rfullyretarded.jpg

When it is at the low speed, fully advanced timing, the inlet valve is open for the 47* that the piston is pushing the gas back, not only into the exhaust, but into the inlet system for that 47* to foul the inlet charge. When the engine gets to 4500??? (don’t know what rpms it switches), the inlet timing goes to full retard and the inlet valve is closed, so that the gas is pushed back down the exhaust only, to let the engine breath clean charge.

So it is no wonder why that engine came to life when the timing changed. When it is on advanced timing all the boost, just blows down the exhaust pipe, till the exhaust closes.

This timing is no good for blowing, and will suffer from the short connecting pipe interferance, more that the EG33 or EZ30.

Harvey.

bazza

10-16-2012, 12:17 AM

I was thinking of using twin vf34's as well (because the compressors are more compact then the gt25's) and using the plumbing, brackets (but obviously deleting the sequential components) to reduce fabrication and keeping it looking oem as possible

Yeah they work really nicely. Although wastegate is usually about 7 psi which with 2 x VF34's is a fair bit of power. Also later you could get the P20 rear housing for a bit more power.

bazza

10-16-2012, 03:17 AM

This is one of the things that you can't relate back to the 4 cylinder engines, when looking at the 6 cylinder.

The 4 fires each cylinder 180* apart, so that when No.1 has opened its exhaust valve to evacuate the cylinder at about 60* BBDC, its piston continues to the bottom, and is on the way up the bore, 60*from the top, when, 180* later, No.2 opens its exhaust valve to pressurise the system, pushing gas into the No.1 cylinder. So the piston has 60* to push the gas back out.

The 6 cylinder fires each cylinder 120* apart. So when it opens No.1 exhaust at 60* BBDC. its piston is only at 60* ABDC when the No.2 opens to pump up the pressure in No 1. that now has 120* to push the gas back out.

Okay, EJ engines 101. The EJ20 has the firing order of 1-3-2-4 not 1-2 etc as you've suggested and the EG33 has 1-6-3-2-5-4.

This means 1 and 3 on the EJ fire 180' apart and 1 and 2 are obviously 360' apart. On the EG33 1 and 3 fire 240' apart which means the EG33 cast iron header is actually better off than the EJ2X cast header as it gets a touch more time between firing to clear.

Also the merge is a long way from the exhaust valves and tends not to be a problem as shown with GT Spec headers on the EJ's. The merge is more about ensuring the pipe design is big enough to ensure good flow and no restriction - for example my first header design used a 3" merge into the up-pipe and was crazy responsive.

So the interference pressure hits the 6 cyl 60* earlier, to foul the charge. That’s why the pipe connecting the two sides has to be long enough to delay the gas pressure from getting to the other side, till its piston is closer to the top of the bore.

The EZ30R that Perrin used is in another situation as it has variable inlet valve timing, and lift.

Low speed inlet timing.
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af217/HARVEY141/EZ30Rfullyadvanced.jpg

High speed inlet timing.
http://i1009.photobucket.com/albums/af217/HARVEY141/EZ30Rfullyretarded.jpg

When it is at the low speed, fully advanced timing, the inlet valve is open for the 47* that the piston is pushing the gas back, not only into the exhaust, but into the inlet system for that 47* to foul the inlet charge. When the engine gets to 4500??? (don’t know what rpms it switches), the inlet timing goes to full retard and the inlet valve is closed, so that the gas is pushed back down the exhaust only, to let the engine breath clean charge.

So it is no wonder why that engine came to life when the timing changed. When it is on advanced timing all the boost, just blows down the exhaust pipe, till the exhaust closes.

This timing is no good for blowing, and will suffer from the short connecting pipe interferance, more that the EG33 or EZ30.

Harvey.

You you've never tested this or tuned any sort of Subaru boxer turbo system alone without bring AVCS or AVLS into the mix and then understanding how the theory relates to the real world. The one thing with theory is it never addresses all the variables. I did rather well in fluid dynamics and thermodynamics at one of the best Uni's in Australia and many years ago I used to spend hours doing the theory - however one of the things I quickly learnt with engines after sitting on dynoes and modifying the shizzle out of these things for a long time is there are to many variables for any theory to deal with. The theory is really only best applied when you have a working setup and you want to take the next step however of course this then requires testing to determine if it works or not. For example, we all know the best engineers in the world can spend 12 months doing the most perfect theory and get it absolutely wrong as seen in the F1 over the years.

So my advice to readers is start with a proven design and then innovate from there. Going on theory without proven results is a very risky business especially when it's your coin being spent at the end of the day.

bazza

10-16-2012, 03:53 AM

Further:

An old set of WRX headers (EJ2X):
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/headers3.jpg

Here you can see the merge - the diameter is nasty yet this setup supports 100 bhp with the 1-3-2-4 firing order and high rpm. You can see how close the runners merge and they fire 180' apart.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/DSC02496.jpg

The "GT Spec" header - long runners. An upgrade for EJ's above 100 bhp (per cylinder) due to the very small diameter in the headers and nasty merge above. Note the merge location doesn't change, it's about the same length from the exhaust valves.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/GT_Spec1.jpg

bazza

10-16-2012, 04:10 AM

My header version 1.0. 3" up-pipe ensure massive flow at the merge. Nice fat GT35R turbine and EWG ensure low header pressure.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/IMG_0907.jpg

My header version 3.0. Planning to run > 600 bhp eventually so will need to seperate the pipes at the port level:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/IMG_2418-1.jpg

Cast iron stock header:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/DSC01444.jpg

What not being conveyed and my point is that for low boost and low power applications such as Tapani and Bobswood, the stock header is absolutely fine. If you've got the coin to go nuts - but don't think you HAVE to build a fancy header system from the get go - that's coin you can spend wisely elsewhere - like a fully tunable ecu etc.

bazza

10-16-2012, 07:19 AM

Also a bit more on why it's the camshafts that cause the power to fall over and not the header pulse theory:

These are the EG33 / SVX power figures aren't they:
Hp: 230 @ 5,400 rpm
Tq: 228 @ 4,400 rpm

V5 STI from factory figures:
HP: 280 @ 6500 rpm
Tq: 256 @ 4000 rpm

The stock cam in the stock setup SVX only ever makes power to 5400 rpm and it would seem most EG33's with stock cams always make peak power to that same rpm. It's interesting to note that the V5 STI cams always make power to about 6500 rpm also or thereabouts.

My dyno graph with numbers - look where it makes peak power - nearly the exact same point as the dead stock car:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/img-110903125602-001-1.jpg

One of Mike's with stock cams IIRC - no top end rpm advances:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/stage2v4dyno.gif

My old V5 STI cams making peak power around 6500 rpm zone, 4th gear PPG box, same dyno:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/245.jpg

My old V5 STI cams making peak power around 6500 rpm zone, 4th gear PPG box, same dyno (this setup had a restrictive dump pipe, FMIC and exhaust):
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/205.jpg

My old V5 STI cams making peak power around 6500 rpm zone, 4th gear PPG box, same dyno:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/281.jpg

BackWoodsBob

10-16-2012, 10:29 AM

Interesting.

Tapani: I was considering the T3/T4 hybrid when I first started the quest to turbo my EG33. After reading up I realized I would need to run twins, otherwise a single would choke the engine.

The minimum I came up with for a single was a GT30r, of course different trims will effect that. Bazza likes the 35R, but I'm not aiming for 500whp haha.

Tapani

10-16-2012, 10:30 AM

I think my first "problem" is the too small expansion side of the turbo.... If I go and replace it I might just as well look into a twinscroll and extend the LH/RH "collector" pipes all the was to the turbine inlet - and keep the cast iron headers.

I trust there's room for improvement not only at the top end but also in the transients (spool) w/o increasing the boost level much at all... It might be wise to select the turbo to reach 7-8PSI maybe together with a water to air intercooler.

As my car has functioned really well for 12 years already there's no hurry - it's still a lot of fun and feels "effortless".

Whatever I will do will be to satisfy my curiosity, to get real predictable results and OEM driveablity w/o going over board. There will never be enough power so I will try to avoid starting on that path...

:)

Tapani

icingdeath88

10-16-2012, 02:10 PM

bazza

10-16-2012, 03:23 PM

What I will be looking for is either a GT30 or GTX30. Bazza won't like it necessarily, but for the amount of power I'm looking for, they should be a good match. The GT35 would work, but, like you said, I don't need quite so much power.

I've seen a lot of people misled into spending a lot of coin on something that doesn't work over the years and my advice is simply so you may understand the big picture and make an informed decision hopefully getting it right on the first go. So if know the full story and you still want the gt30 then all good.

icingdeath88

10-16-2012, 05:40 PM

I've seen a lot of people misled into spending a lot of coin on something that doesn't work over the years and my advice is simply so you may understand the big picture and make an informed decision hopefully getting it right on the first go. So if know the full story and you still want the gt30 then all good.

I think for my purposes the GTX30 will be just right. Actually what I think would be really cool would be to do a twin-scroll one, but I'm not sure whether there is one (or how much it would cost). If I were going for max hp, a GT35 or 40 would be the ticket. I will keep an open mind though and do some more research before I buy of course. The guy (can't remember his name) who bought Phil's car, which has a GT30, felt that it was too big (stock engine, ECUtune stage 2 ECU/injectors/MAF. So I think it will be just right with my built engine, for the power levels that I'm going for. I would rather have the problem that the turbo is on the small side than on the big side, basically, is my reasoning.

bazza

10-16-2012, 06:06 PM

I think for my purposes the GTX30 will be just right. Actually what I think would be really cool would be to do a twin-scroll one, but I'm not sure whether there is one (or how much it would cost). If I were going for max hp, a GT35 or 40 would be the ticket. I will keep an open mind though and do some more research before I buy of course. The guy (can't remember his name) who bought Phil's car, which has a GT30, felt that it was too big (stock engine, ECUtune stage 2 ECU/injectors/MAF. So I think it will be just right with my built engine, for the power levels that I'm going for. I would rather have the problem that the turbo is on the small side than on the big side, basically, is my reasoning.

Just remember that car ran a chipped stock ECU. It's nothing like flashing a stock ecu these days with romraider or live tuning an aftermarket ecu and there could be major gains. I've personally seen major gains with the right tune and also recall that Perrin said they gained 70 hp just from getting the perfect AFR and timing for their EZ30R engine, so you may completely change the characteristics of the reponse, spool and torque with a far more appropriate tune. So you need to remember this when weighing up the comments of that owner.

Also check this, you can see the boosted EG33 gains everywhere over the stock NA setup. The GT30R will give a little more down low but at 4 psi it may actually be less output than the GT35R but better spool even down low - something you'll need to consider. You'll most likely see slightly quicker throttle response also with the GT30R of course.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/dyno1.jpg

Check this also. EZ30D plot of my freinds car - I setup a 3" intake and he put an exhaust on it. Very similar to the EG33 plots and power figures.
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/dyno_outback_comp.jpg

oab_au

10-16-2012, 07:47 PM

.............

bazza

10-16-2012, 08:27 PM

..........

oab_au

10-17-2012, 06:48 PM

I told you this was coming... i dont care about content anymore...

bazza

10-17-2012, 07:25 PM

Double post fail

bazza

10-17-2012, 07:26 PM

Someone is right and someone is wrong...

oab_au

10-17-2012, 07:45 PM

Wah wah wah

bazza

10-17-2012, 07:52 PM

Wah wah wah

BackWoodsBob

10-18-2012, 09:22 AM

oab_au

10-18-2012, 05:48 PM

Blah blah blah blah

bazza

10-18-2012, 05:56 PM

Blah blah blah

'E'

10-20-2012, 03:47 AM

What a mass debate :lol:

BackWoodsBob

10-22-2012, 10:09 AM

:unamused:

bazza

11-03-2012, 11:54 PM

What has been shown over the years, that the turbo has been tried on the EG33, is that its the exhaust pipes that cause it to die at 5000.

The early ones used or copied a kit that was around at that time. This kit had the two engine pipes joined together then going to the turbine. This caused interference between the cylinders so that a cylinders overlap would be pressured by the exhaust pressure from the previous cylinder.

The fix was to run the two engine pipes right up to the turbine before they joined. When this was done the engine ran up the range OK.

This is the problem with turbos on a six cylinder engine, and why twin turbos are the go on sixes.

Harvey.

Incorrect - now with proof. This is an acceleration plot as I posted in the other thread. No issues whatsoever revving to 6500 rpm and pulling all the way with the stock headers. The pulses have no issue as I already knew if the system is setup right. Later the RPM limit was lifted to 6800 rpm and again no issues.

As I mentioned to Tony and what the plot shows is it's still accelerating to the rev limiter and it's increasing in it's acceleration - which is stunning considering the effects of air resistance at 100 mph start really acting on the car etc.

The stock cams are absolute rubbish for anything but a stock setup and should be upgraded as a major priority. The order or priority should be duration and lift, then buckets, valves, springs and then maybe changing the centrelines etc.

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii209/bazzasti/cams-2.jpg

oab_au

11-04-2012, 03:58 PM

Incorrect - now with proof

What proof?

The camshafts were not the only change that you did to this engine, over the first.
You also changed the connector pipe that connects the two exhaust manifolds, to the turbine, from this, short type that the early kits use, Perrin used and you copied.

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/h6_build/h6_engine_shots/oldh6headerdp.jpg

You changed the connector pipes to, two longer, separate pipes, to the turbine, that Phill, Phast SVX used, I recommended, and you built for this engine.

http://diyracecar.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/img_2424.jpg?w=545&h=408

You don’t know what you have done that has caused any change.

I’ll continue on the Camshaft thread in time, about you poor choice of cams.

Harvey.

bazza

11-04-2012, 05:44 PM

What proof?

The camshafts were not the only change that you did to this engine, over the first.
You also changed the connector pipe that connects the two exhaust manifolds, to the turbine, from this, short type that the early kits use, Perrin used and you copied.

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/h6_build/h6_engine_shots/oldh6headerdp.jpg

You changed the connector pipes to, two longer, separate pipes, to the turbine, that Phill, Phast SVX used, I recommended, and you built for this engine.

http://diyracecar.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/img_2424.jpg?w=545&h=408

You don’t know what you have done that has caused any change.

I’ll continue on the Camshaft thread in time, about you poor choice of cams.

Harvey.

Someone hates being wrong. Please explain why it's a poor cam choice? Oh, your ****ty 386 computer simulation says so. So I get power from 2000 rpm to 8000 rpm - yes TERRIBLE choice. So the turbo holds nice flat boost and the Vmax is about the same with half the boost and timing - again terrible choice.

Over the last few months I've noted that the people who've followed your advice over the years have NEVER produced one decent result to date. All your theory polluting these forums for 10 years and not one single decent result to show for it. How do you explain that? It's a disgrace really given people listen to you blindly.

Your ego and arrogance is expected of course but if you check the timestamps - my version 3 headers were built well before you got on your high horse. The fact that you think I did something on your advice is embarrassing.

Now I could prove this beyond a doubt but you'd still argue and claim to be the EG33 Guru which is funny given your terrible record to date.