New Shift Kit Developed

[Trevor]

It has been announced on SVX World Forums, that a well known automotive engineer, has developed an improved shift kit.
--- I have developed a unit that does it the right way.

According to the thread administrator, --- You’ll all be finding out soon enough. Good things are worth waiting for. I'm about to be testing something Harvey developed that will make smallcars shift kit look like a first grader built it.

If things go as I think they will with what I've been told, the SVX (And Road Demon especially) just got a little faster. I can't reveal anything more though as I and Road Demon are only the guinea pigs at the moment. Stay tuned for a thread detailing it soon enough.

I don't see how any special shift kit would make it any faster in the 1/4 mile, where the TCU is already shifting hard at high RPMs. The shift kit only makes driving around a bit more tolerable.

I still don't know enough to go into details as I am awaiting the details and the units myself right now, But there is power to be had in the SVX that it doesn't let us have due to factory tuning that has been a hot topic for a while now. From what I am to understand, This box deals with those things and will allow us all the power we can get at all times and firm up the shifts according to ALL throttle positions instead of just a high/low switch like smallcar.

That is the max of what I am willing to tell for now until testing is done, But I can assure you if it does as I'm told it will be an unbelieveable performance/dollar buy. Believe me, I'm counting the hours until it arrives!


Certainly stay tuned in anticipation of complete details and availability.

[Nomake Wan]

If this "shift kit" is the Power Mode Mod, I'm going to be very angry at someone trying to market it. :mad: Since it was suggested by Phil and the information given freely to everyone.

The "Power Mode Mod" is the only thing I could think of that relates to altering the shifting and makes things "faster."

[svxfiles]

If this "shift kit" is the Power Mode Mod, I'm going to be very angry at someone trying to market it. :mad: Since it was suggested by Phil and the information given freely to everyone.

The "Power Mode Mod" is the only thing I could think of that relates to altering the shifting and makes things "faster."
It is not the Power Mode Mod.
More later.
Tom

[Nomake Wan]

Can't wait to see what this crazy thing is. :confused:

[JLHollowX13]

is this thing gonna be available for purchase? or is it something as simple as the power mode mod that anyone can do for "free"? if it will be available for purchase can you give us an estimated price for those of us who have to save our pennies for those not-so-cheap mods?

[shotking]

is this thing gonna be available for purchase? or is it something as simple as the power mode mod that anyone can do for "free"? if it will be available for purchase can you give us an estimated price for those of us who have to save our pennies for those not-so-cheap mods?

All of this was answered in the up above post quoted from the world forums. Basically no ones talking and were going to have to wait for any info like that. Heres the actual thread that brought it up if anyones interested http://svxworldforums.com/forum4/530-1.html

[Nevin]

Why is it that it was "announced" so long ago on that site, and has just recently come to our attention here? Also, those posts seem quite old, so is this project still to come to fruition, or is it just a pipe dream?

[shotking]

Its only been a week:confused: That being said I remain skeptic till I actually see something yet hope that it is actually helpful.

[Nevin]

Its only been a week:confused: That being said I remain skeptic till I actually see something yet hope that it is actually helpful.


I'm sorry, you're right. I was reading the wrong dates in the linked-to thread.


Honest mistake.

And I would very much look forward to the release of something that could do a better job than the smallcar kit.

[SomethingElse]

I dont get the hype:confused:

how great can it be? your tranny will shift better, life will be easier for you when you move forward after gas pedal is depressed with the selector in "D" higher resistance = firmer shifting, this is the best real mod ever!! can the "shift kit" subject really be played out any more than it has been?

Maybe it has a built in 8passcoolerlipspringrubbercupholderdual$20k ziptiekoniswaybarcoinholdercovermod mod mod

[wannarace928]

The kit is going to be installed on my car by budfreak, hopefully sometime this week. I am going to have my car put on a dyno before and after the kit is installed. I'll post up the results once everything is tested.

[immortal_suby]

I'm interested to hear the details of the kit. It would be very interesting to hear if the alleged "cylinder deactivation during shifts" is addressed (as quoted from the road and track guide to the svx)

[Sir. Nate]

great news considering I'm keeping my 4eat for a while longer

[TomsSVX]

there is only so much you can do electronically to change the shift charactaristics of the transmission w/o getting into the ECU/TCU. I would not be surprised to see very little difference from yet another Add-on. Not that I don't like the idea of something like this working wonders, you cannot help but be sceptical that it will render any results.

Tom

[poweredx2]

Tom is it possible somehow to increase pump pressure for faster shifts,or if someone can get rid of that annoying shift deactivating feature which I feel will make a stock auto maybe 2/10s faster.Anyway I will get one because I just had my tranny rebuilt two weeks ago.

[TomsSVX]

line pressure can be increased to 100% by disconnecting the resistor to the duty solenoid A. But without reprogramming the ECU/TCU this is about as far as you can get along the lines of an add-on. A modified valve body will sharpen up those shifts better than anything else and tapping into the TCU to reduce shift time would help as well. Besides that I see no room for any real improvement. But this is the problem with "secret" projects as no one knows. It is good marketing to leave people in the dark of what they are signing up for as it boasts interest and curiosity but for those who actually care what they are putting on their car... It needs to make sense first.

Tom

[crazyhorse]

Please don't take me as a naysayer, but I tend to agree with YT.

I want this to work, badly, but I don't understand how, what is basically a piggyback, can do much more than what Smallcar's kit does. Without getting to the heart of the tranny's controls, IE the TCU, dramatic changes are difficult.

That said, I'm reserving judgement, until I see the prototype & hear a basic breakdown of it's function.

Add to that, if you get a nice reflash for the TCU I still can't use it, as my '96 is OBDII:(

[Myxalplyx]

Anyone thought of a Level 10 shift kit? How would this new kit shift any faster than that? Only the valve body need to be modified. No changes are necessary in the ECU. I thought I proved that.

[Crazy_pilot]

The kit is going to be installed on my car by budfreak, hopefully sometime this week. I am going to have my car put on a dyno before and after the kit is installed. I'll post up the results once everything is tested.

What do you expect to see on a dyno? How a transmission shifts has nothing to do with HP/torque numbers.:confused:

[JLHollowX13]

line pressure can be increased to 100% by disconnecting the resistor to the duty solenoid A. But without reprogramming the ECU/TCU this is about as far as you can get along the lines of an add-on. A modified valve body will sharpen up those shifts better than anything else and tapping into the TCU to reduce shift time would help as well. Besides that I see no room for any real improvement. But this is the problem with "secret" projects as no one knows. It is good marketing to leave people in the dark of what they are signing up for as it boasts interest and curiosity but for those who actually care what they are putting on their car... It needs to make sense first.

Tom

does disconnecting the resistor harm anything?

[Nomake Wan]

does disconnecting the resistor harm anything?

You lose third gear. And it felt way too...juttery to me.

(By 'lose third gear' I mean that when you put the shifter in '3', the transmission won't do diddly)

[TomsSVX]

You lose third gear. And it felt way too...juttery to me.

(By 'lose third gear' I mean that when you put the shifter in '3', the transmission won't do diddly)

What??? Never experienced that. It hunts for gears on decel in 3rd but thats it... The car does feel jittery though

Tom

[Nomake Wan]

What??? Never experienced that. It hunts for gears on decel in 3rd but thats it... The car does feel jittery though

Tom
That's what I mean. Coast down a hill, drop shifter to '3', laugh as the tach drops to 1k then bumps back up then drops...etc. :lol:

[TomsSVX]

That's what I mean. Coast down a hill, drop shifter to '3', laugh as the tach drops to 1k then bumps back up then drops...etc. :lol:

Ah... I gotcha

Tom

[Myxalplyx]

What do you expect to see on a dyno? How a transmission shifts has nothing to do with HP/torque numbers.:confused:

Have you ever seen a before and after dyno plot of a car going through 1-2 and 2-3 with a shift kit installed? The 'snap' you feel is hp/torque that was not there before. It is 'plottable' on a dyno. The delay you feel stock will show as a hp/torque dip on the dyno graph. The snap will show as a hp/torque spike (gain). If you were to plot the points a the beginning of a shift and after a shift has been completed vs time, the gains in between these seconds can add up on a road course.

[shotking]

Have you ever seen a before and after dyno plot of a car going through 1-2 and 2-3 with a shift kit installed? The 'snap' you feel is hp/torque that was not there before. It is 'plottable' on a dyno. The delay you feel stock will show as a hp/torque dip on the dyno graph. The snap will show as a hp/torque spike (gain). If you were to plot the points a the beginning of a shift and after a shift has been completed vs time, the gains in between these seconds can add up on a road course.

This what I was hoping to see.

[Myetball]

Kinda like the difference between granny shifting and slap shifting a manual trans. You don't gain any actual hp/tq from the engine, you just apply available hp/tq more affectively. Who gets down the 1/4 faster, the granny shifter or the slap shifter?

Be interesting to see what this ubersecret contraption is....more interesting to see how much it will cost.

Doesn't the level 1 chip do the same thing but actually affect engine performance and increase available hp/tq at the bottom end?

[Nomake Wan]

Kinda like the difference between granny shifting and slap shifting a manual trans. You don't gain any actual hp/tq from the engine, you just apply available hp/tq more affectively. Who gets down the 1/4 faster, the granny shifter or the slap shifter?

Be interesting to see what this ubersecret contraption is....more interesting to see how much it will cost.

Doesn't the level 1 chip do the same thing but actually affect engine performance and increase available hp/tq at the bottom end?

The difference is that the ECUtune Stage 1 chip fits into the ROM slot on your ECU. There is no such slot on a TCU stock; you have to remove the TCU, solder in your own slot, and then desolder the stock ROM. Not exactly something everyone would be willing to do. ;) So with that in mind, the shift kit must be external to the TCU.

[Myetball]

The difference is that the ECUtune Stage 1 chip fits into the ROM slot on your ECU. There is no such slot on a TCU stock; you have to remove the TCU, solder in your own slot, and then desolder the stock ROM. Not exactly something everyone would be willing to do. ;) So with that in mind, the shift kit must be external to the TCU.

Just going on what I've read that the stage 1 fixes/reduces the laggy shifts. I have no personal experience to confirm this. Point being, we all want to get rid of the laggy shifts, if the stage 1 does it and adds hp/tq, it would seem the better way to go. Then again, if the ubersecret shift kit comes in at an attractive price, it may be more economical. Then again, the smallcar kit works at a reasonable price...does it really matter how you get from point a to b...as long as you get there?

[Myxalplyx]

***Deleted***

[b3lha]

Harvey mentioned his project to me a while ago. He's been experimenting with it for quite a while so I imagine it must be at quite an advanced stage of development by now. It will be interesting to see how well it works.


I have built a unit that connects into the TCU wiring to modify the way it does the change. It holds the engine power on, and ensures that the line pressure(that is lowed during the change) stays hgh. Makes for fast solid changes, responsive to throttle pressure.


I want to look into this area as part of my project. But I'll be modifying the TCU software directly rather than piggybacking extra circuitry on the TCU and meddling with it's inputs and outputs.

[Tim]

***Deleted***

Are you deleting your posts, or are the moderators deleting it?

[RSVX]

Are you deleting your posts, or are the moderators deleting it?

What black helicopters?

He did it. Not us.

If we were to delete it, you wouldnt even see evidence of its existence.

[TomsSVX]

Its called biting your tongue Tim;)

Tom

[Tim]

Its called biting your tongue Tim;)

Tom

Oh ok... I just never see these threads until like a week later, and I always feel like I miss out on what's said :p

[svxfiles]

What black helicopters?OBEY!

He did it.SLEEP! Not us.

If we were to delete it, you wouldnt even see evidence of its existence.

We're from The Network and we are here to help.:)
SUBMIT!!!

[RSVX]

ROFL:lol::lol:

[Myxalplyx]

Are you deleting your posts, or are the moderators deleting it?

http://www.mirageport.com/gimp/gimp.jpg

[TomsSVX]

We're from The Network and we are here to help.:)
SUBMIT!!!

Great, now I have been unconscious for days:lol::lol:

Tom

[wannarace928]

This is the BEFORE dyno.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x123/wannarace928/dyno1.jpg


The kit is being installed saturday and the AFTER dyno results will be posted sunday or monday.

[wannarace928]

Video to go with dyno results:

http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x123/wannarace928/dyno/?action=view&current=MVI_3188.flv

[wannarace928]

For anyone keeping tabs on svxworldforums for info about the "QC", a new thread has been started:

http://www.svxworldforums.com/forum1/575.html

[SVXRide]

Any thoughts on why your AFR appears to have gone massively lean about midway through the pull (roughly where the IRIS kicks in)?
-Bill

[YourConfused]

Any thoughts on why your AFR appears to have gone massively lean about midway through the pull (roughly where the IRIS kicks in)?
-Bill

I think its MPH not RPM.

[SVXRide]

I think its MPH not RPM.

Look closely. The x axis is mph, but the y axis is AFR.
-Bill

[YourConfused]

Look closely. The x axis is mph, but the y axis is AFR.
-Bill

So I was thinking that the lean condition happened at the shift poinnt of 35 mph, the 1-2 shift. Not the iris opening at 3500rpm. hmm.

[wannarace928]

My car shifted from 1st to 2ed. It would not shift into 3ed, it evidently hit the rev limiter and would not make the shift - which you can see on the graph there at the end and hear in the video.

The only problem the car has is, it gets a little oil blow by, probably caused by the rings.

The car is stock except for the 4.44's, and a custom exhaust.

[poweredx2]

Why wouldn't the car shift to third,do you have any tranny problems numbers are very low even for a stock svx.

[poweredx2]

This should be ok for the people that have a fwd svx.

[wannarace928]

The car does not have any tranny problems. I drive it every single day and have taken it to the dragway, it has never done anything like that.

The guy that did the dyno said it hit the rev limiter.

[redlightningsvx]

Was the test done in D or slapped through gears?

[immortal_suby]

It should have shifted anyway - whether in 1,2,3 or D it should force a shift when it hits the rev limiter. Unless there is something different with your 4.44 swap.

[redlightningsvx]

If you "bump" shift it from 1,2,3, then D it revs to i think 6500rpms but when in D the revs happen sooner then maxing the revs by bumping the gears

[poweredx2]

It could be that the awd was confused by the dyno,just food for thought.

[SVXRide]

So I was thinking that the lean condition happened at the shift poinnt of 35 mph, the 1-2 shift. Not the iris opening at 3500rpm. hmm.

Yeah, I basically disregarded the mph scale, as the portion of the plot at which the AFR goes super lean looks very similar to when the iris opens.;)
-Bill

[wannarace928]

Well I just got home from a long trip in the SVX after the QC was installed (and quite a bit of playing ). And I must say I am quite impressed and happy with it. It is incredibly smooth and makes the car feel faster. The shifts are firmer but not overly firm. I can't wait to get the "AFTER" dyno results to see the differences.

And I believe it was in "D" for the dyno runs. I will ask the guy that did it either tomorrow or monday when it goes back on the dyno.

[Trevor]

It is always possible to achieve a design provided a specification is set down. I now gather that a major desire, is to cut or reduce the level of engine torque control applied during transmission shifts.

Control is signalled from the TCU to the ECU via a cable connection in the loom between the two units, i.e. (B68) TCU - 16 to (B59) ECU - 20. The signal is normally at 5 volts and it would appear that reducing this signal will cut engine torque. Therefore a resistor in this line, with a normally closed switch or relay across it, should provide a means of a selectable cut or reduction in the normal degree of torque control.

Control of transmission line pressure should be possible by inserting a resistance in the green yellow control line TCU to transmission, at the connection on the top of the transmission (T2) 7. Added resistance should increase pressure and again a relay or switch across the resistor should provide control.

Automatic control of these functions could be via a pneumatic switch, as per the Small Car shift kit, or other means directly from the TCU, e.g. a diode bridge providing an isolated circuit from all or any shift solenoids.

Rocket science is not involved, the major factor involving test and experiment. That said, Phil after completing his work, will be able to offer the exact and proper solution which will be without compromise, or add on modification and without doubt must be the correct way to go.

[Nomake Wan]

It is always possible to achieve a design provided a specification is set down. I now gather that a major desire, is to cut or reduce the level of engine torque control applied during transmission shifts.

Control is signalled from the TCU to the ECU via a cable connection in the loom between the two units, i.e. (B68) TCU - 16 to (B59) ECU - 20. The signal is normally at 5 volts and it would appear that reducing this signal will cut engine torque. Therefore a resistor in this line, with a normally closed switch or relay across it, should provide a means of a selectable cut or reduction in the normal degree of torque control.

Control of transmission line pressure should be possible by inserting a resistance in the green yellow control line TCU to transmission, at the connection on the top of the transmission (T2) 7. Added resistance should increase pressure and again a relay or switch across the resistor should provide control.

Automatic control of these functions could be via a pneumatic switch, as per the Small Car shift kit, or other means directly from the TCU, e.g. a diode bridge providing an isolated circuit from all or any shift solenoids.

Rocket science is not involved, the major factor involving test and experiment. That said, Phil after completing his work, will be able to offer the exact and proper solution which will be without compromise, or add on modification and without doubt must be the correct way to go.
Like this?

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/huck369/16578.jpg

[Trevor]

Like this?

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/huck369/16578.jpg

No, no. N.B. --- "Therefore a resistor in this line," My text is clear, the resistor should break the line. Parallel connections to the existing circuit will not achieve this.

[immortal_suby]

It is always possible to achieve a design provided a specification is set down. I now gather that a major desire, is to cut or reduce the level of engine torque control applied during transmission shifts.
provide control.

Trevor,
Good to have you back :)
With the engine operating at a higher torque during the shift will there be a risk of damage to the transmission?

[Trevor]

Trevor,
Good to have you back :)
With the engine operating at a higher torque during the shift will there be a risk of damage to the transmission?

It certainly will not improve things. The choice is up to the individual to asses and decide.

[wannarace928]

The QC offically went on sale today at svxworldforums. You can buy it here:

http://www.svxworldforums.com/forum13/585.html

My car could not get in at the shop today to go on the dyno, we're aiming for tomorrow morning. I will post the "after" results/videos as soon as I get them, hopefully tomorrow.

[Myetball]

For those wondering...it takes a bit of navigating and forum scrolling to find it...the kit is $140 shipped. Production rate is 10/week and they're shipped from Australia so you may have to wait.

Of course if less than 10/week sell I guess availability won't be a problem....DOH!

[wannarace928]

This is the BEFORE dyno.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x123/wannarace928/dyno1.jpg


The kit is being installed saturday and the AFTER dyno results will be posted sunday or monday.


THIS IS THE AFTER DYNO RESULTS!

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x123/wannarace928/dyno/2eddyno.jpg

Video to go with the results:

http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x123/wannarace928/dyno/?action=view&current=2eddyno004.flv

My car did considerably better on the dyno today. It actually shifted into 3ed this time. The guy that runs the dyno said he definately noticed it shifted a whole lot better.

[Crazy_pilot]

Why does the power spike at gear changes? What causes this, and more importantly, what's that doing to the driveline? That much power coming on and off in a very short time can't be doing anything good.:confused::eek:

[SVXRide]

Wannarace,

Could you ask the dyno shop to plot the runs from both sessions on the same sheet of paper? The different max x-axis values (65 vs 100?) make is difficult to make a 1-to-1 comparison. Is there a reason why the shop isn't using rpm as the x-axis value? I'll have to go back and check, but I believe all of the dyno plots I've pulled together from folks on the network have been HP vs RPM and TQ vs RPM. This allows you to see what HP and TQ do as you run the engine up to its redline.
Thanks.
-Bill
p.s. what is going on with the HP/TQ spikes?? Something just doesn't feel right with the latest plot, as the AFR stays at Stoich all the way across the run (?) Add to this the fact that the HP and TQ curves look identical (??)

[Myetball]

Why does the power spike at gear changes? What causes this, and more importantly, what's that doing to the driveline? That much power coming on and off in a very short time can't be doing anything good.:confused::eek:

Actually, the power coming on/off quickly is better. Less time slipping the clutches equals less heat. I don't think worrying about stock hp damaging the drivetrain is a worthwhile endeavor.

I like that way that car shifted, may have to add this to my wishlist.

[wannarace928]

Bill -

I can definately ask them to plot both runs on the same papper. I'll post it up if they can do it.

And i'm not sure why they are not using rpm, I can ask that as well.




Myteball -

I absolutely love the way the car shifts now. It is really awesome. It feels very smooth and much quicker.

[Tim]

I am anticipating the long term report after 1000 miles. The big spike kinda worries me but looks promising so far :D

[wannarace928]

I am anticipating the long term report after 1000 miles. The big spike kinda worries me but looks promising so far :D

I'm working on almost 500 miles already since it was installed. :cool: No problems so far.

[redlightningsvx]

Any increased tranny temps?

[wannarace928]

Any increased tranny temps?

I am not sure on that, Budfreak might know.

I don't have a gauge installed on my car.

I have a cooler installed on my car though.

[TomsSVX]

Shocks like that to the drivetrain will cause severe damage... Its not that the stock drivetrain won't hold 220whp its that a 70hp spike like that will shatter your axles, differentials, planetaries... you name it, its gonna break

Tom

[wannarace928]

Shocks like that to the drivetrain will cause severe damage... Its not that the stock drivetrain won't hold 220whp its that a 70hp spike like that will shatter your axles, differentials, planetaries... you name it, its gonna break

Tom

I drive my car daily and take it on a lot of long trips. I'll keep everyone posted on how things are going, but like I said, it has already been 500 miles and all is well.

[TomsSVX]

I drive my car daily and take it on a lot of long trips. I'll keep everyone posted on how things are going, but like I said, it has already been 500 miles and all is well.

Lets hope for the best. :)

Tom

[joe62890]

I am anticipating the long term report after 1000 miles. The big spike kinda worries me but looks promising so far :D

Haha, I thought the same thing. Might have to hold out on this one to see how many drivetrains grenade.

[wannarace928]

And for anyone that doesn't read the other forum, Budfreak has over 1000 miles on his and all is well. (And RD is not babied, especially during testing)

In theory, shouldn't tranny temps decline due to less slipping?

[TomsSVX]

And for anyone that doesn't read the other forum, Budfreak has over 1000 miles on his and all is well. (And RD is not babied, especially during testing)

In theory, shouldn't tranny temps decline due to less slipping?

Yes, but in theory the HP spike shouldn't happen either... There is something off there and it doesn't look right... I have no idea why they didn't plot HP vs RPM MPH is worthless.... More importantly, there is no way to actually make 220whp with an engine that makes 230crank... Like I said something it very wrong there

Tom

[oab_au]

Shocks like that to the drivetrain will cause severe damage... Its not that the stock drivetrain won't hold 220whp its that a 70hp spike like that will shatter your axles, differentials, planetaries... you name it, its gonna break

Tom

Don't be such a naysayer Tom, just because you like pulling a stick.:D

The torque peaks are due to the torque converter multiplying torque, due to the difference in engine/transmission speed. It is not a shock, it is a nice surge.

I have had it on my Australian model for over 12 months, done many miles, many Gtec runs, with no problems. It just makes the gear box change gears like gear boxs did before the intervention of computers.:)

I do recommend that it only be fitted, to a good working gear box, with a well adjusted brake band, and a working AWD.

Harvey

[Sir. Nate]

I'm ordering one as soon as I have the money.

[SomethingElse]

I did not see a picture yet. what does it look like?

[b3lha]

Why the dyno plots are so different? I'm not trying to pour cold water on Harvey's invention, but this doesn't make sense.

Surely the QC only modifies the gearchange. Therefore the only substantial difference should be in the 1 second of the dyno run so that the transmission is shifting from 1st to 2nd.

[b3lha]

Control is signalled from the TCU to the ECU via a cable connection in the loom between the two units, i.e. (B68) TCU - 16 to (B59) ECU - 20. The signal is normally at 5 volts and it would appear that reducing this signal will cut engine torque. Therefore a resistor in this line, with a normally closed switch or relay across it, should provide a means of a selectable cut or reduction in the normal degree of torque control.


I don't follow your reasoning Trev.

The torque control is a binary switch not a voltage. It is either On or Off, ie "Ground" or "Not Ground". What is the benefit of introducing a resistor into the circuit? The engine torque is not in any way proportional to the voltage on this line.

[TomsSVX]

Don't be such a naysayer Tom, just because you like pulling a stick.:D

The torque peaks are due to the torque converter multiplying torque, due to the difference in engine/transmission speed. It is not a shock, it is a nice surge.

I have had it on my Australian model for over 12 months, done many miles, many Gtec runs, with no problems. It just makes the gear box change gears like gear boxs did before the intervention of computers.:)

I do recommend that it only be fitted, to a good working gear box, with a well adjusted brake band, and a working AWD.

Harvey

Harvey, it says in the manual, " In order to reduce gear shift shocks and protect transmission gears, engine torque is controlled shifting up under heavy loads or when the transmission is in the manual mode." What this kit is doing is negating any protection the car has built in for the transmission. There are two spikes that really concern me, The 1-2 shift and the 3-4 shift. These are ver close to 100ftlbs in difference and there is nothing smooth about them. I wish the people who get this the best of luck but I do not see this ending well.

Tom

[lechnoid]

Removed by me until Harvey decides his product is complete and is ready to discuss it with the open market.

[wannarace928]

As requested by SVXride, the 1st and 2ed dyno runs on the same sheet of papper.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x123/wannarace928/dyno/2eddyno1.jpg

[poweredx2]

I will try one of the kits based on the fact of spraying anything from 75-150shot at the top of first gear into second didn't break my tranny,I am pretty sure since I put 250k miles on that tranny and with a recent rebuild last month all should go well.

[oab_au]

Most of it stems from a lack of knowledge of Torque Converters.
This is not a manual transmission, doing a flat change from 1st to 2nd, where the clutch is banged home on a revving engine to pull its speed down to the lower ratio. This will stress the driveline.:eek:

The Auto has a Torque Converter between the engine and the transmission, this acts as a flexey unit that not only absorbs any shock, but also multiplies the torque on the way.:)
When the engine winds up in 1st to about 6500 for the gear change, the Impeller and the Turbine are both spinning at approximately the same speed. When the change takes place, the Turbine (that is attached to the transmission) slows to the new ratio’s speed. The Impeller (that is attached to the engine) is still spinning at 6500. Whenever the Impeller is spinning faster than the Turbine, a torque multiplication takes place.

In other words the engines torque, hence power, is multiplied by the factor of the speed difference, till the turbine spins at the same speed as the engines Impeller. Most will know that this happens at stall, starting off. But it will happen at any speed, if there is a difference in the rotational speed of the two converters elements.

So what we have happening here is, instead of the engines torque being reduced by 50% while the change takes place, the engines torque is increased by the multiplication factor of the speed difference of the converters elements. This is a smooth action :)

Harvey.

[poweredx2]

Great info.

[oab_au]

Great info.

I think we will see a revival of Autos for the strip.

Harvey.

[oab_au]

Why the dyno plots are so different? I'm not trying to pour cold water on Harvey's invention, but this doesn't make sense.

Surely the QC only modifies the gearchange. Therefore the only substantial difference should be in the 1 second of the dyno run so that the transmission is shifting from 1st to 2nd.

Yes Phil, the change takes place in that 1/4 of a second. But the effects of the Torque Converters multiplication lasts a bit longer, to give the boost.:)

Harvey.

[immortal_suby]

Harvey - when I hit it just right - not at full throttle but about 7/8th throttle - I get a noticeably different gear change. Rather than the normal gear change it feels like a shift in a manual where you keep the throttle at max and only change gears with the clutch and gearbox. A slight slipping of the clutch as the gear is engaged and the car jumps forward much harder. In the auto it seems to only happen when my foot is not on the floor, but close to it. The engine revs stay higher on these lucky gear changes.

I like it. But it is extremely difficult to duplicate. Could this be the TCU not performing the torque reduction in the absence of WOT? Will this be what the QC kit will do? If it is, I am in.

[TomsSVX]

Harvey - when I hit it just right - not at full throttle but about 7/8th throttle - I get a noticeably different gear change. Rather than the normal gear change it feels like a shift in a manual where you keep the throttle at max and only change gears with the clutch and gearbox. A slight slipping of the clutch as the gear is engaged and the car jumps forward much harder. In the auto it seems to only happen when my foot is not on the floor, but close to it. The engine revs stay higher on these lucky gear changes.

I like it. But it is extremely difficult to duplicate. Could this be the TCU not performing the torque reduction in the absence of WOT? Will this be what the QC kit will do? If it is, I am in.

"Under heavy loads and in manual mode" is when the torque control is utilized. What the QC does is disable the torque control during shifts. As I quoted from the manuals earlier in the thread, there are reasons not to do this. A warning you may or may not, it is up to you. Call it negativity or whatever you like.

tom

[oab_au]

Harvey - when I hit it just right - not at full throttle but about 7/8th throttle - I get a noticeably different gear change. Rather than the normal gear change it feels like a shift in a manual where you keep the throttle at max and only change gears with the clutch and gearbox. A slight slipping of the clutch as the gear is engaged and the car jumps forward much harder. In the auto it seems to only happen when my foot is not on the floor, but close to it. The engine revs stay higher on these lucky gear changes.

I like it. But it is extremely difficult to duplicate. Could this be the TCU not performing the torque reduction in the absence of WOT? Will this be what the QC kit will do? If it is, I am in.

A bit hard to say Matt, the torque control is used on all shifts. The duration of the cut changes to suit the situation. The longest one is when you pull the lever into reverse, from a cold start, when the Idle speed is high, so it doesn't jump through the garage door.

But that is is feeling that it gives. It is very progressive in its operation. If you cruise around town, you won't notice anything different. Use a bit more throttle and the change becomes a bit faster and firmer. Stick your foot into it and the change becomes faster and harder.

I have been in Automotive for over 50 years, been on The Network since before it started, I wouldn't dud you Matt. :)

Harvey.

[immortal_suby]

Thanks Harvey,
I sent a note to Budfreak to order a QC. :)

[RSVX]

Thanks Harvey,
I sent a note to Budfreak to order a QC. :)

Care to share a test drive when it's installed?

I can swing by on the BMW. :-)

[Trevor]

I don't follow your reasoning Trev.

The torque control is a binary switch not a voltage. It is either On or Off, ie "Ground" or "Not Ground". What is the benefit of introducing a resistor into the circuit? The engine torque is not in any way proportional to the voltage on this line.


Phil, thanks for the definitive information.

You will note that I included the words, “ it would appear that”. Unfortunately I have not been in conference with you and shared your knowledge regarding the software, as has Harvey. On the basis of the information available to me it appeared that a voltage signal was involved, but I also appreciated that test and experiment would be necessary.

The manual indicates that either a short circuit, or an open circuit, will record a fault code and this tended to preclude on/off binary control to ground. Fault detection circuitry must be quite sophisticated. In point of fact what you state means that control is easier to achieve than I had anticipated.

Regards, Trevor.

[Trevor]

Here we have a product offered for sale via a non member, on a conflicting site, without any form of description or specification as to its purpose, performance or use, forthcoming from the manufacturer. This precludes any purchaser from establishing liability in respect of performance or fault.

The scant information available stems from a user apparently supplied with a complimentary sample. Here placebo and vested interest must be taken into account. At this point nothing is certain, it would appear by intent.

[lechnoid]

Removed by me until Harvey decides his product is complete and is ready to discuss it with the open market.

[b3lha]

Harvey,

I understand you have put a lot of work into the QC and I wish you every success with it. Would you mind sharing the technical details of exactly what it does and how it does it? So far we've discussed eliminating the torque control signal, but that could be done by cutting a single wire, so I'm sure the QC must do much more than that.

I honestly don't see any reason to keep the design secret because there are very few people here who could figure out how to build one themselves. We are all good mates here and nobody is going to steal the design. Even if somebody did, nobody here would buy a knocked-off copy on principle.

So, in terms of how it interacts with the TCU. Which of the TCU input/output signals does it read, which does it modify, in what way, and under what conditions.

Phil.

[lechnoid]

Removed by me until Harvey decides his product is complete and is ready to discuss it with the open market.

[SVXRide]

1st - thanks to WannaRace for providing the dyno plots of the before and after on one plot:cool:

2nd - I still don't understand why the dyno shop can't provide a HP/rpm and TQ/rpm plot. The mph on the x-axis is worthless, IMHO

3rd - Following the conversation up to this point and looking at the dyno plots, it really does just look like what is happening is a almost direct coupling (219 ~95% of 230) during shifts, with perhaps a more efficient coupling between shifts (?). The engine is definitely NOT making more power, we're just seeing a more efficient transfer to the wheels (?).

-Bill

[lechnoid]

Removed by me until Harvey decides his product is complete and is ready to discuss it with the open market.

[TomsSVX]

1st - thanks to WannaRace for providing the dyno plots of the before and after on one plot:cool:

2nd - I still don't understand why the dyno shop can't provide a HP/rpm and TQ/rpm plot. The mph on the x-axis is worthless, IMHO

3rd - Following the conversation up to this point and looking at the dyno plots, it really does just look like what is happening is a almost direct coupling (219 ~95% of 230) during shifts, with perhaps a more efficient coupling between shifts (?). The engine is definitely NOT making more power, we're just seeing a more efficient transfer to the wheels (?).

-Bill

Also thanks to Wannarace, it is important to supply evidence other than how it feels to support a product.

As I have been thinking a lot on it, it is because the engine is still spooling power (lack of torque control) between shifts. This spooled up rotating mass is then unloaded onto the t/c when the shift completes and thus the spike...

Tom

[immortal_suby]

Care to share a test drive when it's installed?

I can swing by on the BMW. :-)

Of course!
I'm happy to be one of the guinea pigs. I'm already planning on a dyno day to test the tomyx intake, so this will be another one to throw in the mix.

[SVXRide]

That's the thing Bill, the dyno is showing a large increase in power, and Harvey is saying that it's because of the torque multiplication that his kit provides.

Anyways, I'm off for a great afternoon of work as a technician at a transmission shop with great techs and a crappy owner. Until this evening, have fun everybody.


It's a wheel dyno, so all it's showing is an increase in power at the wheels. We constantly have discussions on the % of drivetrain loss (usually bouncing between 15% for MT and 30% for AT), thus my comment about a potential improvement of the coupling efficiency. Question for you - what's about the best efficiency you can expect from a modern TC?
Thanks.
-Bill

[Nomake Wan]

TC lock up is when the pump and turbine are physically connected, reducing any potential slippage/inefficiency though TC operation to 0%. This was widely implemented in the 70's as a way to increase fuel economy while at cruising speeds. Whether or not it applies to the SVX I don't know, but it is not uncommon for modern converters to lock up during WOT operation to maximize power output.
Yes, the SVX has a lockup torque converter. It operates based upon fluid pressure changes regulated by Solenoid B. Generally, when travelling at a constant speed with no throttle changes (say, when cruise control is engaged), you can detect it based upon a sudden drop in revs, about 300 RPM or so. :)

[Trevor]

Also thanks to Wannarace, it is important to supply evidence other than how it feels to support a product.

As I have been thinking a lot on it, it is because the engine is still spooling power (lack of torque control) between shifts. This spooled up rotating mass is then unloaded onto the t/c when the shift completes and thus the spike...

Tom

Exactly Tom. I am unable to understand why this factor is not completely obvious to all.

The issue is whether the spike of torque available only over a very short period, serves any really useful purpose. Particularly when lined up against the disadvantages you have pointed out.

The feel of firms shifts I gather is considered sporting to those not wishing to demonstrate that they own a luxury vehicle. Exactly what is achieved, not available via a pair of side cutters, is yet to be stated, much less proven.

[TomsSVX]

Exactly Tom. I am unable to understand why this factor is not completely obvious to all.

The issue is whether the spike of torque available only over a very short period, serves any really useful purpose. Particularly when lined up against the disadvantages you have pointed out.

The feel of firms shifts I gather is considered sporting to those not wishing to demonstrate that they own a luxury vehicle. Exactly what is achieved, not available via a pair of side cutters, is yet to be stated, much less proven.


There is more to it I am sure... It must increase line pressure in accordance to its draw from the torque control in order for the clutches to hold the new-found abuse... But its no longer a question of what the kit changes and has moved on to what is it going to do to the trans itself... After going through lengthy discussions on Jason's forum I was kindly asked to piss off. I guess skepticism is frowned upon when its major components at risk:rolleyes:

Tom

[lechnoid]

Removed by me until Harvey decides his product is complete and is ready to discuss it with the open market.

[Nomake Wan]

Drag racing is not what an SVX was designed for anyway...it's not good for it. :o It's a grand tourer...so I would think it'd be way more at home doing a long course at high speed.

If you want a drag car...jeez, get a WRX or something? :lol:

[TomsSVX]

I gave it some thought at work today, and came up with a very simple thought. The only way those spikes can show the way they do on the dyno is to essentially get the automatic to act as if you had a manual and held the throttle at max while shifting. That is the only way I can think of to transfer the momentum of the engine to show at the wheels enough for a 100 hp difference.


That is what is happening. But due to the t/c being a fluid coupler and not directly driven it will lurch rather than "bang"

Tom

[lechnoid]

Removed by me until Harvey decides his product is complete and is ready to discuss it with the open market.

[oab_au]

First or all, I did not start this thread, it was started prematurely. The “Quick Change” would have been announced when it was fitted, tested, and ready for release. The uninformed debate that has ensured was not my intention, or desire.

The “Quick Change” is the result of a long held desire to improve the way the SVX Auto preforms the gear changes that many others, and I have. The gear changes are controlled by the TCU to make them very smooth and unobtrusive, by reducing the engines torque output by 50%, lowering the line pressure to soften the engagement, then raising the line pressure again and turning the engines torque back on to 100%
Unfortunately takes some time to achieve, it also has the actual band/clutch engagement taking place with a reduced line pressure that allows some slipping to take place.

To achieve the results that are needed, the Torque Control has to be addressed to allow the engine to continue to preform. If it is removed the engagement of the brake band and clutches would then take place under full power, with a reduced line pressure to the determent of the linings. The lowing of the line pressure has to be addressed also, to allow them to take the normal load

These changes to the operation for the Torque Control and the line pressure, have to be preformed only at the time they are needed, they can’t be a permanent changes, as these functions are needed at other times in the operation of the gearbox. The “Quick Change” does this by looking at the throttle pressure and engaging the control to suit the load.

The Line pressure lowering is preformed by the TCU sending a signal to the ‘A’ solenoid. The “Quick Change” intercepts this signal to keep the Line pressure high, so that the Brake band and the Clutches engage under full pressure, to prevent any slippage. The overall Line pressure is still controlled by the Throttle pressure through the dropping resistor circuit that has to be as normal. You cannot use the Small Cars Shift Kit with this unit.

The following Warning is given in the fitting instructions:

Warning: This unit should only be fitted to a gear box in good working order and condition, with a well adjusted Band and a working AWD.


Harvey.

[RSVX]

I am not saying it's beyond civil, yet.

So call this a pre-emptive obey the first rule heads up to all active in this thread.

Keep it respectful.

[oab_au]

Post removed by me for the good of the Forum.

PS. I have no intention of offending anybody. But I will defend myself with vigor.
"Play with fire... prepare to get burnt."

Harvey.

[YourConfused]

I am not saying it's beyond civil, yet.

So call this a pre-emptive obey the first rule heads up to all active in this thread.

Keep it respectful.

Every side has a point. Not all are correct. Let this thread live for the education of others.

[TomsSVX]

Thank you Harvey for confirming my assumptions of the QC's function but I still hold my personal opinion as to the long-term effects that this will have on a stock box.

Tom

[lechnoid]

Removed by me until Harvey decides his product is complete and is ready to discuss it with the open market.

[oab_au]

Thank you Harvey for confirming my assumptions of the QC's function but I still hold my personal opinion as to the long-term effects that this will have on a stock box.

Tom

Thank you Tom, you are welcome I am sure.:)
Harvey.:)

[Sir. Nate]

From the discussion it sounds like the "QC" accomplishes the same thing as a mechanical shift kit. Quicker, cleaner, firmer shifts while helping to reduce or eliminate shift overlap.

[Evil One]

I know this may not transfer over to the 4EAT, BUT...
I have messed with automatic equipped performance cars for 20+ years, and with the manual "shift kits" I have experianced cooler temps and less wear due to the reduction of slippage on shifts.
I know the 4EAT is not a paragon of durability, but if I had not traded my tealy I would be on this like white on rice.
Our other tealy has a 5 speed courtesy of one of toms swap kits... so its a moot point with it.
I have followed this piece of equipment from the first postings about it and had a very good idea what the spikes were on the dyno sheet, as it is not uncommon to see them in performance built automatics.
The disclaimer has been stated that you need to have a GOOD transmission that is properly adjusted.
Look into other performance parts... you will have a LOT of trouble finding a company who will replace your transmission due to the tq convertor throwing more tq at it... a shift kit company who will replace your transmission due to failure from sudden power transfer.
A nitrous company wont give you another engine because their system blew your engine.
With a performance modification you roll your dice and you pay your money.
In the future, if a transmission is not up to it and fails here and there... The people will have no leg to stand on in court.
I honestly think this is a good modification for the SVX.
I also believe that the QC should come with the trpical "off road only" "not responsible for damage due to improved performance" disclaimers other performance parts have.


Jim

[RSVX]

Every side has a point. Not all are correct. Let this thread live for the education of others.

And every side can make their point, correct or not, respectfully.

And that's all I am saying. If it were going to be closed, it would have been, but there is nothing rule breaking, yet.

It appeared to be headed that way, so a friendly reminder was in order.

Call it a pre-emptive strike if you will, but no one has been cited.

[Trevor]

First or all, I did not start this thread, it was started prematurely to undermine whatever I am doing as usual. The “Quick Change” would have been announced when it was fitted, tested, and ready for release. The uninformed debate that has ensured was not my intention, or desire.

Harvey.

Why does my in no way offensive post, in defence of the above offensive slander and outright wrong statement not appear? Technical matters were also raised within my post. In the spirit of fair play and honesty, members must retain the right of reply in such instances.

Post my message without censoring and let members be the judge. :mad:

[immortal_suby]

If any of the post violates the rules, the whole post goes.

I also wonder why you started this thread. And I completely understand why this thread wasn't started here by Harvey.

[Trevor]

If any of the post violates the rules, the whole post goes.

I also wonder why you started this thread. And I completely understand why this thread wasn't started here by Harvey.

The post did not violate the rules as does Harvey's. Harvey's nasty claim and your assumption does not stand up, as my post absolutely confirmed. Go to his preferred grubby forum and read the threads involved and note the dates and data posted and compare with the start date of this thread.

Furthermore at at any time he could have posted there or here, simple advice that further testing was in hand, if that was honestly desired.

[oab_au]

Trevor if have offended you with my post, I apologise.
I will remove the offending words from my post.

Harvey.

[shotking]

The post did not violate the rules as does Harvey's. Harvey's nasty claim and your assumption does not stand up, as my post absolutely confirmed. Go to his preferred grubby forum and read the threads involved and note the dates and data posted and compare with the start date of this thread.

Furthermore at at any time he could have posted there or here, simple advice that further testing was in hand, if that was honestly desired.

Come on was that necessary. Remember alot of people go back and forth between forums. I'm kinda shocked that you would refer to it like that:o

[Trevor]

Come on was that necessary. Remember alot of people go back and forth between forums. I'm kinda shocked that you would refer to it like that:o

A spade is a spade. A fact is a fact. The forum is grubby.

[YourConfused]

A spade is a spade. A fact is a fact. The forum is grubby.

Please define 'grubby' for me. I go there some times, so am I grubby also? lol
No, really Trevor, what exactly are you getting at here? I will acknowledge that the forum is less than classy, but some of the members actually do have a brain.
Glad you are makeing trouble here again as you gave us quite a scare.:)

[SomethingElse]

CAN WE PLEASE GET OVER OURSELVES AND STICK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND!!

Personally, I do not think this product should be used on a daily driver car for the average joe going back and forth to work. As noted earlier This product should only be used on a solid, well maintained, properly cared for transmission, preferably with a cooler installed.

It seems to be perfect for someone who runs there car hard, or drives it only on the weekends. Use it if your trying to squeeze every ounce of performance you can out of this car at any cost. If I had an SVX with an auto that wasnt worn out, It would be installed in my car asap...I wanna see what it feels like to have 219.32 hp at the wheels of a SVX.

[shotking]

A spade is a spade. A fact is a fact.


"First or all, I did not start this thread, it was started prematurely to undermine whatever I am doing as usual. The “Quick Change” would have been announced when it was fitted, tested, and ready for release. The uninformed debate that has ensured was not my intention, or desire."

Harvey.


Yes a spade is a spade and a fact is fact.

[YourConfused]

"First or all, I did not start this thread, it was started prematurely to undermine whatever I am doing as usual. The “Quick Change” would have been announced when it was fitted, tested, and ready for release. The uninformed debate that has ensured was not my intention, or desire."

Harvey.


Yes a spade is a spade and a fact is fact.

Have you looked at the dates of posts on the other site as well? If this is too soon, then the other posts are WAY too soon. Just keeping it to the basic facts here as i like both Trevor and Harvey. They are both smart and cool people.

[RSVX]

If any of the post violates the rules, the whole post goes.

I also wonder why you started this thread. And I completely understand why this thread wasn't started here by Harvey.

"First or all, I did not start this thread, it was started prematurely to undermine whatever I am doing as usual. The “Quick Change” would have been announced when it was fitted, tested, and ready for release. The uninformed debate that has ensured was not my intention, or desire."

Harvey.


Yes a spade is a spade and a fact is fact.

Have you looked at the dates of posts on the other site as well? If this is too soon, then the other posts are WAY too soon. Just keeping it to the basic facts here as i like both Trevor and Harvey. They are both smart and cool people.

You see, we aren't the only ones who see through this whole mess.

Back on topic, and take the rest to PMs. I really dont want to lock this thread. TONS of good info here.

[oab_au]

CAN WE PLEASE GET OVER OURSELVES AND STICK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND!!

Personally, I do not think this product should be used on a daily driver car for the average joe going back and forth to work. As noted earlier This product should only be used on a solid, well maintained, properly cared for transmission, preferably with a cooler installed.

It seems to be perfect for someone who runs there car hard, or drives it only on the weekends. Use it if your trying to squeeze every ounce of performance you can out of this car at any cost. If I had an SVX with an auto that wasnt worn out, It would be installed in my car asap...I wanna see what it feels like to have 200hp at the wheels of a SVX.

Well Eric.I didn't really say that , did I?:)
It went like this;
"This unit should only be fitted to a gear box in good working order and condition, with a well adjusted Band and a working AWD"

I can understand your concern. I would probably would be too, if I hadn't driven a car with it on. But having driven it for 13 months, in all conditions, except abusing it, I find it is one of those things you forget is there, that is till you want to slip out of your lane into the next and there is a gap coming up, you give it a bit of throttle, and instead of it sitting there waiting for it to go, It just jumps into the empty lane.:):)

The other place it reminds you it is there, is when you are sitting behind a car waiting to pass. The roads clears to overtake and hit the throttle, Instead of hoping a car doesn't come the other way, it just grabs 3rd and you are around and back on your side of the road. :):)

I know you are Technical, so I think you will change your mind when you get to try a car with it on.

Harvey.

[SomethingElse]

word for word you did not say it like that. but in generalization I felt it fit;)

As Tom mentioned too...(not word for word) :p The kit modifies shifting in a way it was not designed for. I cant see any positive mechanical result with prolonged use. Internal components will wear out quicker then they would under normal use, Looking at the dyno charts makes that a fact. People just need to be aware of that

looking at the dyno charts also makes me want one because it does provide a significant increase in power at the wheels. And If my tranny breaks, so what! Ive got spares, Not everyone does thou....

Well Eric.I didn't really say that , did I?:)
It went like this;
"This unit should only be fitted to a gear box in good working order and condition, with a well adjusted Band and a working AWD"

I can understand your concern. I would probably would be too, if I hadn't driven a car with it on. But having driven it for 13 months, in all conditions, except abusing it, I find it is one of those things you forget is there, that is till you want to slip out of your lane into the next and there is a gap coming up, you give it a bit of throttle, and instead of it sitting there waiting for it to go, It just jumps into the empty lane.:):)

The other place it reminds you it is there, is when you are sitting behind a car waiting to pass. The roads clears to overtake and hit the throttle, Instead of hoping a car doesn't come the other way, it just grabs 3rd and you are around and back on your side of the road. :):)

I know you are Technical, so I think you will change your mind when you get to try a car with it on.

Harvey.

[oab_au]

word for word you did not say it like that. but in generalization I felt it fit;)

As Tom mentioned too...(not word for word) :p The kit modifies shifting in a way it was not designed for. I cant see any positive mechanical result with prolonged use. Internal components will wear out quicker then they would under normal use, Looking at the dyno charts makes that a fact. People just need to be aware of that

looking at the dyno charts also makes me want one because it does provide a significant increase in power at the wheels. And If my tranny breaks, so what! Ive got spares, Not everyone does thou....

OK I will write an explanation of the Dyno chart, as I can see people can't interpret it technically.

As for the box not being designed to do this, Subaru did not worry about putting this box behind the RS turbo, or the WRX, without turning the torque down.:)
For the SVX they wanted that smooth, luxury, high priced change.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Trevor if have offended you with my post, I apologise.
I will remove the offending words from my post.

Harvey.

Harvey, an alteration of your post and or an apology is not required and it is best that all remain as is.

I have been corresponding with officialdom by PM and now am aware of the circumstances involved, having been advised:-

“Don't play dumb with me, it doesnt suit you.
Everyone that has half a brain knows EXACTLY why you started that thread.
Harvey's post rang of the truth and was not disrespectful in tone. He merely called a spade a spade.
Myself, other admins/mods, and even other members know why you started that thread. Not to share the topic of something new for the community, but to give yourself an opportunity to take a few shots at Harvey.”

If those with half a brain are so inclined this is of no concern. However the fact that the deletion my complete post was based on prejudice, rather than fact/content, most certainly is. Others have been very critical within the thread. I gather it was expected that I would join in very early, with vigour and glee. The anticipants were disappointed.

At the time of posting, your gismo was being offered solely via a competing site and given that you have again been active here, this did make me disgruntled and possibly wrongly affect my desire to promote the news. Whatever, at any time on either site, a simple message, posted by you, e.g. “A little patience is required as testing is not quite complete and I must make sure nothing is overlooked”, would surely have provided the leeway you have claimed I denied you. In any event let it all be water under the bridge.:)

It will be interesting to see if this post is allowed viewing, as it must be in danger of being considered as highly political. :rolleyes:

Several have discounted your claim of an increase in horsepower, but they are not in fact correct.:(

The best way for them to understand what is involved is to compare an old fashioned, fluid fly wheel (FFW), with a modern torque converter (TC). The FFW comprised a simple driving impeller and an output ‘turbine’ coupled hydraulically. While similar, a TC incorporates what could be termed an hydraulic fluid feed back system, whereby second use is made of the reciprocating fluid in order to improve efficiency.

By example, if both machines were set up with the output shafts braked to the same degree, but allowed to rotate, and equal power applied at the input impellers, performances would not equate. Measurement would disclose a higher torque applied via the TC and the output shaft would rotate faster than that of the FFW. This reaction would exactly indicate an increase in horse power as a result of torque gain within the TC. A Google will provide those unsure with details of exactly how this is achieved.

The degree of torque is dependent on the difference in rotation between input and output as a result of applied power and driven load and in your application the time involved in these becoming equal after a gear change. Both factors are important within the equation, but here time has a duplicate effect.

How long is the spike? Is it showing torque/power applied for sufficient time to significantly affect performance? I believe your profit will likely depend on placebo and the tactile sensation of a more sporting type of car. If all are happy what the hell. ;)

The possibility of damage is open to conjecture. Increasing the line pressure as part of the exercise could well overcome friction surface wear. Shock increases should not be too bad on moves up the ratios, but coming down possibly involves factors not yet disclosed. Complete details are awaited with interest.

P.S. I have just read YT's analysis elsewhere, of how the spike records transmission engagement at a point when the engine speed exceeds output requirements. I have not mentioned this additional factor as it is surely self evident.

Trevor.

[immortal_suby]

Harvey, an alteration of your post and or an apology is not required and it is best that all remain as is.

I have been corresponding with officialdom by PM and now am aware of the circumstances involved, having been advised:-

“Don't play dumb with me, it doesnt suit you.
Everyone that has half a brain knows EXACTLY why you started that thread.
Harvey's post rang of the truth and was not disrespectful in tone. He merely called a spade a spade.
Myself, other admins/mods, and even other members know why you started that thread. Not to share the topic of something new for the community, but to give yourself an opportunity to take a few shots at Harvey.”

If those with half a brain are so inclined this is of no concern. However the fact that the deletion my complete post was based on prejudice, rather than fact/content, most certainly is. Others have been very critical within the thread. I gather it was expected that I would join in very early, with vigour and glee. The anticipants were disappointed.

At the time of posting, your gismo was being offered solely via a competing site and given that you have again been active here, this did make me disgruntled and possibly wrongly affect my desire to promote the news. Whatever, at any time on either site, a simple message, posted by you, e.g. “A little patience is required as testing is not quite complete and I must make sure nothing is overlooked”, would surely have provided the leeway you have claimed I denied you. In any event let it all be water under the bridge.:)

It will be interesting to see if this post is allowed viewing, as it must be in danger of being considered as highly political. :rolleyes:

Several have discounted your claim of an increase in horsepower, but they are not in fact correct.:(

The best way for them to understand what is involved is to compare an old fashioned, fluid fly wheel (FFW), with a modern torque converter (TC). The FFW comprised a simple driving impeller and an output ‘turbine’ coupled hydraulically. While similar, a TC incorporates what could be termed an hydraulic fluid feed back system, whereby second use is made of the reciprocating fluid in order to improve efficiency.

By example, if both machines were set up with the output shafts braked to the same degree, but allowed to rotate, and equal power applied at the input impellers, performances would not equate. Measurement would disclose a higher torque applied via the TC and the output shaft would rotate faster than that of the FFW. This reaction would exactly indicate an increase in horse power as a result of torque gain within the TC. A Google will provide those unsure with details of exactly how this is achieved.

The degree of torque is dependent on the difference in rotation between input and output as a result of applied power and driven load and in your application the time involved in these becoming equal after a gear change. Both factors are important within the equation, but here time has a duplicate effect.

How long is the spike? Is it showing torque/power applied for sufficient time to significantly affect performance? I believe your profit will likely depend on placebo and the tactile sensation of a more sporting type of car. If all are happy what the hell. ;)

The possibility of damage is open to conjecture. Increasing the line pressure as part of the exercise could well overcome friction surface wear. Shock increases should not be too bad on moves up the ratios, but coming down possibly involves factors not yet disclosed. Complete details are awaited with interest.

Trevor.


I'm interested to see some timeslips from the guys who have a good history at the dragstrip. It seems the improvement during the shift would have to show up at the strip.
Harvey stated on the SWF that the QC along with the power mode mod will provide engine braking in all gears. That would be excellent for the twisty backroads.

[Myetball]

I almost forgot what this thread was about....allow me to summarized the last several pages.

:tard: :spam: :spam: :spam: :bash: :tard: :mad: :angst: :angst: :angst:

[poweredx2]

After reading all of this great info,do anyone run dual air fuel ratio gauges if so you can really see during wot shifts that the right half of the engine is being shut down.Even when I ran nos the same always happen.New question if the QC adressing this issue it should stand to benefit your engine by appling full power with both engine halves running during shifts.Your will only see this if you are running 2 a/f ratio meters,the right half always go blink for a milisecond.I hope this will help.

[poweredx2]

Maybe the increase in hp is just the other half of the engine .

[oab_au]

Deciphering Dyno charts for some is like me, looking at Phil’s source code. It looks very good, but tells me nothing. To Phil it has a whole lot of clues in plain sight.
Reading a torque chart tells me every thing about the performance of the engine and transmission. Everybody looks at the Numbers, how much power does it make?
I look at the shape of the curve, is it flat or peaky, are there any dips or peaks. What happened in the breathing to cause that dip or was it the exhaust?

The charts that Tina posted, shows the torque delivered to the wheels through the 1st-2nd gear change that we can read, to see the effects of the change on wheel power. To understand this we have to know that the ratio change does to the flow. When we do the ratio change from first gears ratio of 2.785:1 to second gears 1.515:1 we will be changing the speed of the engine by 2800 rpm. At full throttle the auto box will change at 6500 rpm, so the engine speed has to slow to 3700 rpm.

In the before chart we see the torque line rising fast at the start and slowly decrease as the speed rises. At about 34.5 MPH/6500RPM the fuel injection pulse to every second injector is turned off. At the first green line the band is applied and the box is in second gear. The rise in the torque line between the two green lines is the Torque converter slowing the engine down the necessary 2800 rpms. This is helped by the 50% torque cut that is on, but the torque still increases as the 2800 rpm difference brings the converters torque multiplication factor up to 1.9 times. As the engine slows and the speed difference reduces so does the torque factor. The peak of this is reached at about 36 MPH and the engine has come down to speed at about 37 MPH, the injection is brought back on gradually to conform to the “no change felt policy”, and the engine is restored to full power at about 38 MPH. All the time between the two red lines is the lag that we feel, about 4.5 MPHs worth.

In the after chart a better view shows the three changes into 2,3,4. In this chart we see by the flat Air/Fuel curve that there is no cut made. The change takes place at the first of the green lines at about 33-34 MPH/6500 RPM. When the band is applied and the box is in second gear, the torque converter starts to slow the engine, but because the engine is still at full power the multiplication factor of about 1.9, results in a much higher torque output, peaking on the red line, at about 36 MPH. By about 38-39 MPH the engine has slowed to the new ratio speed of 3700. This is fortunate as this puts us right in the middle of the Inlets Inertia torque curve, where it is putting out 90 odd % of the total torque, this then multiplying by the factor of 1.9 produces an increase torque flow of about 227 ft lbs.

The other things to be noticed is that when the band is applied at the first green line, there is no shock recorded in the torque, as it would have shown up as a sharp increase. over a very short period. The following torque peak is due to the converter multiplying the torque over a longer period that is felt as a surg, and as the hydraulic engagement pressure is increased in this time, the band can easily hold this increase.

Comparing the 3 changes, it can be seen that the amplitude of the torque peaks reduces as the gearing is increased, the 3-4 change has a lower torque peak that the 1-2 change. You should note that Tina’s car is fitted with 4.44:1 diffs so the lower ratio produces torque peaks in her car, that will be higher, and over a shorter period, than a car with the STD 3.45:1 diff ratio.

Harvey.

[oab_au]

Maybe the increase in hp is just the other half of the engine .

The power increase is due to the higher average torque over the time. The Torque converter can't increase power only torque. The increase in torque is offset by a reduction in rotational speed, so the power remaines the same.

Your car on the gas would have put a fair bit of torque through the change into second gear.
I have been trying to find the post where Michael dynoed his Nitrous kit back in 2004. You may remember, I know Matt would, but it hit around 440 ft lbs on the change.:eek: so the box can take it.:)

Harvey.

[Trevor]

The power increase is due to the higher average torque over the time. The Torque converter can't increase power only torque. The increase in torque is offset by a reduction in rotational speed, so the power remaines the same.

Harvey.

You claim that there is an increase in the performance of the car. If so there must be an increase in horsepower at the wheels and as I have explained in my last post, this does occur. But you are here saying the power remains the same.:confused:

[oab_au]

You claim that there is an increase in the performance of the car. If so there must be an increase in horsepower at the wheels and as I have explained in my last post, this does occur. But you are here saying the power remains the same.:confused:

No, what I said is that "the increase in power is due to the Average torque over Time" that the change takes place.

It is in the torque converters conversion, that the torque is increased but the power remains the same. As the torque is increased, the different speed between the two converters elements is increased. As with any mechanical advantage. But what you say in your post is basically right.

Harvey.

[b3lha]

So how does the QC operate?

I'm guessing that it detects the gearchange by reading the voltage on the TCU torque control line (which is no longer connected to the ECU) and then overrides the signal to Duty Sol A that controls the line pressure.

Is that right, or is there more to it than that?

[RSVX]

First or all, I did not start this thread, it was started prematurely. The “Quick Change” would have been announced when it was fitted, tested, and ready for release. The uninformed debate that has ensured was not my intention, or desire.

The “Quick Change” is the result of a long held desire to improve the way the SVX Auto preforms the gear changes that many others, and I have. The gear changes are controlled by the TCU to make them very smooth and unobtrusive, by reducing the engines torque output by 50%, lowering the line pressure to soften the engagement, then raising the line pressure again and turning the engines torque back on to 100%
Unfortunately takes some time to achieve, it also has the actual band/clutch engagement taking place with a reduced line pressure that allows some slipping to take place.

To achieve the results that are needed, the Torque Control has to be addressed to allow the engine to continue to preform. If it is removed the engagement of the brake band and clutches would then take place under full power, with a reduced line pressure to the determent of the linings. The lowing of the line pressure has to be addressed also, to allow them to take the normal load

These changes to the operation for the Torque Control and the line pressure, have to be preformed only at the time they are needed, they can’t be a permanent changes, as these functions are needed at other times in the operation of the gearbox. The “Quick Change” does this by looking at the throttle pressure and engaging the control to suit the load.

The Line pressure lowering is preformed by the TCU sending a signal to the ‘A’ solenoid. The “Quick Change” intercepts this signal to keep the Line pressure high, so that the Brake band and the Clutches engage under full pressure, to prevent any slippage. The overall Line pressure is still controlled by the Throttle pressure through the dropping resistor circuit that has to be as normal. You cannot use the Small Cars Shift Kit with this unit.

The following Warning is given in the fitting instructions:

Warning: This unit should only be fitted to a gear box in good working order and condition, with a well adjusted Band and a working AWD.


Harvey.

So how does the QC operate?

I'm guessing that it detects the gearchange by reading the voltage on the TCU torque control line (which is no longer connected to the ECU) and then overrides the signal to Duty Sol A that controls the line pressure.

Is that right, or is there more to it than that?

Read up :)

[b3lha]

Read up :)

Yes. I read that. But it is not a complete explanation. I was hoping that Harvey would provide some further clarification.

These changes to the operation for the Torque Control and the line pressure, have to be preformed only at the time they are needed, they can’t be a permanent changes, as these functions are needed at other times in the operation of the gearbox. The “Quick Change” does this by looking at the throttle pressure and engaging the control to suit the load.

How does the QC knows when the change to the torque control and line pressure operation is needed. How does it know when a gear change is taking place, or about to take place? Where is the threshold of throttle position that causes the QC to activate?

The Line pressure lowering is preformed by the TCU sending a signal to the ‘A’ solenoid. The “Quick Change” intercepts this signal to keep the Line pressure high, so that the Brake band and the Clutches engage under full pressure, to prevent any slippage. The overall Line pressure is still controlled by the Throttle pressure through the dropping resistor circuit that has to be as normal.

What is the relationship between throttle pressure and the duty cycle applied by the QC? Does the QC actually apply an increase the pulse width, or just force the solenoid open with DC?
I am not asking WHAT it does, I am asking HOW it does it.

[RSVX]

I lose :(:(

[SVXRide]

Deciphering Dyno charts for some is like me, looking at Phil’s source code. It looks very good, but tells me nothing. To Phil it has a whole lot of clues in plain sight.
Reading a torque chart tells me every thing about the performance of the engine and transmission. Everybody looks at the Numbers, how much power does it make?
I look at the shape of the curve, is it flat or peaky, are there any dips or peaks. What happened in the breathing to cause that dip or was it the exhaust?

The charts that Tina posted, shows the torque delivered to the wheels through the 1st-2nd gear change that we can read, to see the effects of the change on wheel power. To understand this we have to know that the ratio change does to the flow. When we do the ratio change from first gears ratio of 2.785:1 to second gears 1.515:1 we will be changing the speed of the engine by 2800 rpm. At full throttle the auto box will change at 6500 rpm, so the engine speed has to slow to 3700 rpm.

In the before chart we see the torque line rising fast at the start and slowly decrease as the speed rises. At about 34.5 MPH/6500RPM the fuel injection pulse to every second injector is turned off. At the first green line the band is applied and the box is in second gear. The rise in the torque line between the two green lines is the Torque converter slowing the engine down the necessary 2800 rpms. This is helped by the 50% torque cut that is on, but the torque still increases as the 2800 rpm difference brings the converters torque multiplication factor up to 1.9 times. As the engine slows and the speed difference reduces so does the torque factor. The peak of this is reached at about 36 MPH and the engine has come down to speed at about 37 MPH, the injection is brought back on gradually to conform to the “no change felt policy”, and the engine is restored to full power at about 38 MPH. All the time between the two red lines is the lag that we feel, about 4.5 MPHs worth.

In the after chart a better view shows the three changes into 2,3,4. In this chart we see by the flat Air/Fuel curve that there is no cut made. The change takes place at the first of the green lines at about 33-34 MPH/6500 RPM. When the band is applied and the box is in second gear, the torque converter starts to slow the engine, but because the engine is still at full power the multiplication factor of about 1.9, results in a much higher torque output, peaking on the red line, at about 36 MPH. By about 38-39 MPH the engine has slowed to the new ratio speed of 3700. This is fortunate as this puts us right in the middle of the Inlets Inertia torque curve, where it is putting out 90 odd % of the total torque, this then multiplying by the factor of 1.9 produces an increase torque flow of about 227 ft lbs.

The other things to be noticed is that when the band is applied at the first green line, there is no shock recorded in the torque, as it would have shown up as a sharp increase. over a very short period. The following torque peak is due to the converter multiplying the torque over a longer period that is felt as a surg, and as the hydraulic engagement pressure is increased in this time, the band can easily hold this increase.

Comparing the 3 changes, it can be seen that the amplitude of the torque peaks reduces as the gearing is increased, the 3-4 change has a lower torque peak that the 1-2 change. You should note that Tina’s car is fitted with 4.44:1 diffs so the lower ratio produces torque peaks in her car, that will be higher, and over a shorter period, than a car with the STD 3.45:1 diff ratio.

Harvey.

Harvey,
Thanks for explaining the AFR curve in the "before" plot!:cool:
-Bill

[Trevor]

No, what I said is that "the increase in power is due to the Average torque over Time" that the change takes place.

It is in the torque converters conversion, that the torque is increased but the power remains the same. As the torque is increased, the different speed between the two converters elements is increased. As with any mechanical advantage. But what you say in your post is basically right.

Harvey.

"the increase in power is due to the Average torque over Time" is rather a confusing statement. I now realise that probably what is meant is that, the increase in power is due to the increase in what was the previous normal torque, over Time"

Horse power is a measure of work accomplished. Torque is a measure of a static force. Once torque moves something, HP is developed and can be measured. In the situation being discussed, an increase in torque therefore clearly results in an increase in HP.

Therefore the power does not remain the same as you have claimed. However this is a matter of getting ones head around what are rather confusing facts, and does not affect the issue. ;)

[oab_au]

Yes. I read that. But it is not a complete explanation. I was hoping that Harvey would provide some further clarification.

How does the QC knows when the change to the torque control and line pressure operation is needed. How does it know when a gear change is taking place, or about to take place? Where is the threshold of throttle position that causes the QC to activate?

What is the relationship between throttle pressure and the duty cycle applied by the QC? Does the QC actually apply an increase the pulse width, or just force the solenoid open with DC?
I am not asking WHAT it does, I am asking HOW it does it.

Sorry Phil, I wanted to get a photo of the circuit board up, to explain its operation, but I am not having a lot of luck.

When I design something I subscribe to the "KISS" principal, so it is pretty simple. :)
It uses a LM741 Op-Amp configured as a comparator, comparing a regulated set voltage to the Throttle Position Sensors voltage. When the TP voltage reaches 1.8 V the Op-Amp sets to turn on a transistor to operate a DP/DT relay. One half turns the TCUs Torque Control line off the ECU and on to a regulated 4.5V, that it can pull up and down happily. The other side of the relay inserts a resistor in the A solenoids control line to limit its signal to 5%. This action keeps both the ECU/TCU from posting trouble codes.

The Op-Amp has some negative feed back to allow some hysteresis to give a good snap-on, and to prevent a noisy TPS from spurious triggering.

The line pressure is normally controlled by the throttle position, more throttle more line pressure, this is the normal way Autos do it. In our box there is another feed to the A solenoid that is used to reduce the line pressure for a number of reasons, cold oil, starter cranking, gear changing. So it can't be turned off all the time.
http://www.subaru-svx.net/photos/files/oab_au/39636.JPG
The circuit looks like this, the Throttle pressure signal is a 12V duty cycle that is run through the dropping resistor to reduce the signal to a 5V signal to mix with the 5V shift signal. The inclusion of the resistor to allow the two signals to drive the solenoid even though they may be opposite. This happens when the throttle is wide open its duty cycle signal is 5%, when the shift is to operate the shift voltage is increased to about 80% to soften the engagement, if the resistor was not used one line would short out the other line, so it acts as an isolator, or voltage divider.

When the Small Cars Shift Kit is used, the reduced resistance in the Throttle line causes a higher line pressure that would normally be used, but even with this in place, a full throttle change still has the line pressure reduced through the shift line, so it really does nothing but fool the driver into thinking it is producing a solid change.

The other thing that the SCSK can't do, that the Quick Change achieves is that because the Pilot pressure that the A solenoid regulates, is also used to set the pressure behind the shift accumulators, by keeping this pressure from reducing, it reduces any chance of slip due to the longer engagement time, that the softer accumulator gives, so its action is set in line with the throttle pressure as the whole operation is.
The Quick Changes action is progressive to the throttle position, no change at all on a light throttle, progressively getting firmer with the throttle position.

I'll get a photo up eventually.:)

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Yes. I read that. But it is not a complete explanation. I was hoping that Harvey would provide some further clarification.

How does the QC knows when the change to the torque control and line pressure operation is needed. How does it know when a gear change is taking place, or about to take place? Where is the threshold of throttle position that causes the QC to activate?

What is the relationship between throttle pressure and the duty cycle applied by the QC? Does the QC actually apply an increase the pulse width, or just force the solenoid open with DC?
I am not asking WHAT it does, I am asking HOW it does it.

Phil,
Like you I am curious and have the exactly same thoughts as you regarding the method involved. However this stumbles because Harvey has mentioned that the torque control is normally used as a safety measure in reverse gear. Surely this is not done away with. :confused:

Importantly Harvey has stated that “The overall Line pressure is still controlled by the Throttle pressure through the dropping resistor circuit that has to be as normal.” This is not correct. The resistor circuit is not involved in the control of solenoid “A”. The increase in line pressure due to disconnecting the circuit is purely circumstantial.

Cheers, Trevor. *<)

[Myxalplyx]

Wannarace,

Thanks for posting up the dyno charts. I have been reading this and staying quiet up to now. I have posted the same information in previous threads that you have. See the dyno chart from my SVX:
http://home.comcast.net/~thomasck/mini-SVX-AllTQ.jpg

In this thread-->http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31895&highlight=%2Ashift%2Akit%2A&page=2

I have explained that I think the spike in lean air/fuel ratios could probably be eliminated if the shifts were super fast. Here is the thread that this info was posted in --->
Thread: http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16181&highlight=Hydrosystem

Here's is what I said in this thread:


Who has had the Level 10 PTS Hydrosystem (Or valve body) job performed on their SVX? What is your experience with it? I am interested in knowing since I plan on doing this sooner than later.

I know there are other options but it would be nice to see if someone has taken this route already. I had it done with my Outback Sport and I love it.

This is what I am thinking it will do-->

1) It will shorten the shift time between shifts by allowing the clutch packs to engage quickly rather than slipping to engage. I believe this will eliminate or dramatically shorten the 'power-loss' phenomena that a lot of us have been talking about. I don't think you need to go inside the TCU in order to do this. The only reason why I say this is because my Outback Sport shifted similarly before having the hydrosystem done,

2) It will dramatically shorten or eliminate the lean air/fuel ratio condition between shifts. I believe the TCU is telling the ECU (I am going to shift) and the ECU cuts fuel to the engine. If the TCU says (I am going to.....) then Boom, the transmission is in the next gear, the ECU will have little to no time to cut fuel to the engine.

3) Forgot to add this (Adding on 10/22/07). The hp & torque in between shifts should jump up an additional between 50-70hp & lb-ft of torque. Should feel like someone turned on nitrous in between shifts for a split second. That would be cool! That would be a big difference than losing hp and torque like we currently do.

I am going to apologize to those this may have offended since a lot of work has gone into making firmer shifts from people here. I just wanted to voice my opinion on this even though I have less experience in the ins and outs of our tranny shift behavior.....

Thoughts!?!



I have experienced the same problem that you did with the shifting of the car to 4th gear before I had my valve body modified. If you look at my dyno graph, you'll notice that my car does not shift when yours did after you had your shift kit installed. My power simply kept going then dropped off. It would not shift into 4th gear.

Just wanted to let you know that you are not alone. Also wanted to thank you for confirming what I have been stating all along. That I believe you WILL eliminate the air/fuel ratio spike in between shifts with a shift kit. Trust me, your tranny should like it due to the reduced trans temps. If I had another SVX, this'd be one of the first mods no doubt. Send me a PM if you like to discuss further. You may be in an uphill battle trying to convince some people (No offense) that this is worth doing. I never got back on the dyno to prove what I thought it'd do to the air/fuel ratio. Again thanks! :D

Also, you have proven what I said about he torque/hp jump in between shifts. See my quote above. THANK YOU!!!! I love it!!!!


THIS IS THE AFTER DYNO RESULTS!

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x123/wannarace928/dyno/2eddyno.jpg

Video to go with the results:

http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x123/wannarace928/dyno/?action=view&current=2eddyno004.flv

My car did considerably better on the dyno today. It actually shifted into 3ed this time. The guy that runs the dyno said he definately noticed it shifted a whole lot better.

[Myxalplyx]

In the before chart we see the torque line rising fast at the start and slowly decrease as the speed rises. At about 34.5 MPH/6500RPM the fuel injection pulse to every second injector is turned off. At the first green line the band is applied and the box is in second gear. The rise in the torque line between the two green lines is the Torque converter slowing the engine down the necessary 2800 rpms. This is helped by the 50% torque cut that is on, but the torque still increases as the 2800 rpm difference brings the converters torque multiplication factor up to 1.9 times. As the engine slows and the speed difference reduces so does the torque factor. The peak of this is reached at about 36 MPH and the engine has come down to speed at about 37 MPH, the injection is brought back on gradually to conform to the “no change felt policy”, and the engine is restored to full power at about 38 MPH. All the time between the two red lines is the lag that we feel, about 4.5 MPHs worth.


Harvey, I apologize ahead of time for not purchasing your kit when we talked PM (before I had the Level 10 done). I wasn't sure it was doing what Tina charts suggests. As for the bolded area above, I just wanted to confirm the time you suggested from the time I plotted on my dyno chart from a previous post.

Just bumping this up since crazy ideas keep popping into my head.

I still do not like the lose of fuel between shifts. Harvey stated that the fuel can continue to flow instead of being cut off between shifts. I have already contacted Level 10 and have been considering a valve body (Hydrosystem) job. I told them I would like to have the shifting on the firmer/harder/quicker side. The car feels like it shifts great but I sat down last night to look at a few things.

On the 1st to 2nd gear, the SVX is not making any power for 4.1 seconds on the dyno (29.7 to 33.8 second mark). On the 2nd to 3rd gear shift, it is not making any power for 2.6 seconds (59.5 to 62.1 second mark). That is a total of 6.7 seconds of power loss. I do not have data for the 3rd gear to 4th gear gear change time since I never took it that far on the dyno. Even still, 6.7 seconds of power loss out of a car that has been ran in the low 15 second range seems significant.

Power loss in 1st to 2nd gear has been as low as 84whp and from 2nd to 3rd gear as low as 92.5whp. How significant a drop in the 1/4 mile time can be achieved if you could turn these times of power losses to 100% power gains? In other words, make your shift change from 1st to 2nd and 2nd to 3rd power gain as much as it orginally lost after a valve body job.

Just pointing out the 4mph you were talking about above, is what I noticed as well. That is significant to me.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=31895&highlight=%2Ashift%2Akit%2A&page=2


I am still wondering why the 2nd to 3rd gear shift is not as powerful as 1st to 2nd and 3rd to 4th. :confused: Same 'issue' I have. I still do not like my 2nd-3rd gear shift even though it is still good. The 'neck-snapping' shift is not there or as apparent as the other gear shifts.

Harvey, congrats on your work. I want to purchase this kit despite the valve body job I have already. That 1-2 shift is neck snapping. I like a lot and I don't think I quite feel that much torque going through the gears. Good luck and I hope you sell a ton of these. I wish I could apply your kit to my XT6. I'd do it tomorrow.

[oab_au]

Harvey, I apologize ahead of time for not purchasing your kit when we talked PM (before I had the Level 10 done). I wasn't sure it was doing what Tina charts suggests. As for the bolded area above, I just wanted to confirm the time you suggested from the time I plotted on my dyno chart from a previous post.

Just pointing out the 4mph you were talking about above, is what I noticed as well. That is significant to me.

I am still wondering why the 2nd to 3rd gear shift is not as powerful as 1st to 2nd and 3rd to 4th. :confused: Same 'issue' I have. I still do not like my 2nd-3rd gear shift even though it is still good. The 'neck-snapping' shift is not there or as apparent as the other gear shifts.

Giday Kevin, no need to do that mate, you were not the only one to not realise its operation, there were others, it probably did seem a bit too good to be true.:)

The differences in the 1-2 and 2-3 changes is, when the box is in first the forward clutch is on, to go to second the brake band only has to be applied, the forward clutch is still used. If the band slips a bit or it is late to apply, the box is still in first so you won't notice it, you just get a later change.

The 2-3 change is different. The band has to be released, and the high clutch has to be applied. This takes a bit of timing, both with the valve body and the TCU. If the band is released before the high clutch comes on, it will 'flare', (actually it still has the forward clutch on, so it goes back to first), till the high clutch comes on to go to 3rd. So it doesn't have the snap action of just applying the band, it takes a bit of shuffling to do.
Older 3 speed boxs did this change over using the same applied pressure, releasing the band and applying the high clutch with the same applied pressure. Because our 4 speed uses the band again for 4th, it has a much more involved release/apply system. Hence the reason for the difference in the changes.

The 3-4 change is a bit like the 1-2, as the high clutch is still on and the band is applied to hold the front sun gear. If the band slips in 4th, it just goes back to 3rd. But only having to apply the band, gives the same snappy change as 1-2.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

When I design something I subscribe to the "KISS" principal, so it is pretty simple.
It uses a LM741 Op-Amp configured as a comparator, comparing a regulated set voltage to the Throttle Position Sensors voltage. When the TP voltage reaches 1.8 V the Op-Amp sets to turn on a transistor to operate a DP/DT relay.

Why not a simple transistor driven voltage sensitive DPDT relay? I gather there is a direct connection to the TPS. This means that whenever the throttle position provides 1.8 V. or more, torque reduction can not occur and line pressure runs free, regardless.

One half turns the TCUs Torque Control line off the ECU and on to a regulated 4.5V, that it can pull up and down happily.

This indicates that the torque control signal is applied to the output from a 4.5 volt regulated supply. Phil has advised that the torque control is a binary switch not a voltage. It is either On or Off. Therefore the described arrangement will ask the torque control to short circuit a voltage regulated supply, backed up by 14 volts. Interesting stuff.

The other side of the relay inserts a resistor in the A solenoids control line to limit its signal to 5%. This action keeps both the ECU/TCU from posting trouble codes.

The circuit looks like this, the Throttle pressure signal is a 12V duty cycle that is run through the dropping resistor to reduce the signal to a 5V. signal to mix with the 5V shift signal. It is therefore claimed that the shift signal to the solenoid is at 5v. The inclusion of the resistor to allow the two signals to drive the solenoid even though they may be opposite. Opposite? At negative potential? This happens when the throttle is wide open its duty cycle signal is 5%, when the shift is to operate the shift voltage is increased to about 80% to soften the engagement, if the resistor was not used one line would short out the other line, Why? They are of the same polarity. so it acts as an isolator, or voltage divider. In order to operate as a voltage divider the so called ‘throttle signal’ must be at negative potential.

Everything indicates that the resistor circuit must be at negative potential, which it is not.

When the Small Cars Shift Kit is used, the reduced resistance in the Throttle line causes a higher line pressure that (?than) would normally be used, but even with this in place, a full throttle change still has the line pressure reduced through the shift line, Exactly how? so it really does nothing but fool the driver into thinking it is producing a solid change. (Not according to those who have it. The secondary resistor included in the kit is of high resistance and is included only to prevent a fault signal. The effect equates with fully opening the circuit, which has been found to have a definite effect, confirmed by many who have tried it.)

The "Q C" may work, but not in the way intended or described and only as result of luck.

[Trevor]

At the moment with my brain still loose in my skull, bending down makes things spin, so that I am unable to undertake experimental work myself. I hope that someone will have a crack at the following idea. This does not mean that I entirely agree with the mod. involved, which is carried out entirely at the users choice and risk.


Shift kit, KISS/RS (simple, Rapid Shift)

Requirement.

On a partial opening of the throttle, insert a resistance in the torque control and line pressure signal circuits connected to the TCU, so as to prevent these from operating, while eliminating any abrupt, complete opening of the circuits as well as fault signals. As a result torque control will be eliminated and line pressure increased to controlled pump output pressure.

Features.

Cost effective, simple easily understood system, easily installed by the user at minimal cost i.e. bugger all for those who have a junk box.

Method.

Micro switch operated directly from the throttle spindle.

Components.

Alternative 1. Special bracket & actuator user made, one S.P.D.T. miniature micro switch, one D.P.D.T. 12 volt 10 -15 amp relay, two carbon resistors, insulated hook up wire, connectors, fastenings.

Alternative 2. Special bracket & actuator user made, one D.P.D.T. micro switch, two carbon resistors, insulated hook up wire, connectors, fastenings.

Component Specifications.

(1) Micro Switch with lever actuation, S.P.D.T. Size and switching capacity not important. Maximum over travel, which largely depends on maximum lever length and this can be extended. (The existing lever can easily be lengthened by sweat soldering an extension, and a brass/bronze lever is therefore preferable. Otherwise the extension can be epoxy glued.)

Relay, 12 Volt operating, say 10 - 15 Amp nominal switching capacity. Otherwise users choice of connecting terminals and mounting etc. Give anything you have in the junk box a try.

(2) Micro Switch, D.P.D.T. Maximum switch capacity available within a suitable size. Otherwise as (1) above. An alternative is to mount two switches in tandem. Again check the junk box.

(1&2) Actuator, comprising a light metal strip 75 mm/3” long, 1-12 mm/3/8-1/2” wide.

(1&2) Bracket. Sheet metal right angle bracket, to rigidly mount the micro switch, using the existing two screws at the outside end of the throttle spindle support. To rise upwards and then outwards to support the switch from underneath, so that the lever moves backwards and forwards. Holes drilled accordingly. Innermost switch mounting holes slotted to allow for adjustment.

(1&2) Two carbon film resistors, 180 - 470 ohm, 1 watt, to be each chosen after practical testing

Method Of Operation.

A strip of steel is epoxy glued to the outside of the quadrant operated by the throttle peddle cable, so the it protrudes above the edge in order to strike the lever of a micro switch. The switch is mounted to the outside of the throttle spindle by means of suitable bracket.

The switch lever is aligned close to the outside of the quadrant, clear of the second outer quadrant, so that in the closed throttle position, the switch is activated by the protruding strip at the maximum of available over travel. Therefore the switch lever will be released and the N/C contacts close, after the throttle is past part way opened.

The normally closed contacts are utilised to operate a relay (1) or directly close the circuitry (2). As a result resistors connected across the two circuits, which have been intentionally broken, are brought into play.

It will be seen that the switch position can be adjusted to set the point of throttle opening, where the circuit will become activated.

If a relay is used and a S.P.D.T micro switch as in (1), the normally open relay contacts are connected across the resistors. An ignition switch controlled auxiliary supply is connected to the relay and the other side grounded via a lead to the micro switch N.C. contacts.

Exact details can be discussed with anyone wishing to install the system. Suitable micro switches are manufactured by Cherry Corp. as well many others. Relays are a dime a dozen and many could have one or both items in their junk box.

P.S. If any member wishes to test and finalise this project, make brackets and source components so at to offer a kit, go for it, you will have my assistance. I have no financial reward in mind and all is for free. Those who have thoughts about me stealing ideas, should refer to post #57.

[Myxalplyx]

When you guys start talking like this, the conversation goes to another level. Interesting stuff regardless. I will catch up with understanding by 2020. :confused:

[oab_au]

When I design something I subscribe to the "KISS" principal, so it is pretty simple.
It uses a LM741 Op-Amp configured as a comparator, comparing a regulated set voltage to the Throttle Position Sensors voltage. When the TP voltage reaches 1.8 V the Op-Amp sets to turn on a transistor to operate a DP/DT relay.

Why not a simple transistor driven voltage sensitive DPDT relay? I gather there is a direct connection to the TPS. This means that whenever the throttle position provides 1.8 V. or more, torque reduction can not occur and line pressure runs free, regardless.

One half turns the TCUs Torque Control line off the ECU and on to a regulated 4.5V, that it can pull up and down happily.

This indicates that the torque control signal is applied to the output from a 4.5 volt regulated supply. Phil has advised that the torque control is a binary switch not a voltage. It is either On or Off. Therefore the described arrangement will ask the torque control to short circuit a voltage regulated supply, backed up by 14 volts. Interesting stuff.

The other side of the relay inserts a resistor in the A solenoids control line to limit its signal to 5%. This action keeps both the ECU/TCU from posting trouble codes.

The circuit looks like this, the Throttle pressure signal is a 12V duty cycle that is run through the dropping resistor to reduce the signal to a 5V. signal to mix with the 5V shift signal. It is therefore claimed that the shift signal to the solenoid is at 5v. The inclusion of the resistor to allow the two signals to drive the solenoid even though they may be opposite. Opposite? At negative potential? This happens when the throttle is wide open its duty cycle signal is 5%, when the shift is to operate the shift voltage is increased to about 80% to soften the engagement, if the resistor was not used one line would short out the other line, Why? They are of the same polarity. so it acts as an isolator, or voltage divider. In order to operate as a voltage divider the so called ‘throttle signal’ must be at negative potential.

Everything indicates that the resistor circuit must be at negative potential, which it is not.

When the Small Cars Shift Kit is used, the reduced resistance in the Throttle line causes a higher line pressure that (?than) would normally be used, but even with this in place, a full throttle change still has the line pressure reduced through the shift line, Exactly how? so it really does nothing but fool the driver into thinking it is producing a solid change. (Not according to those who have it. The secondary resistor included in the kit is of high resistance and is included only to prevent a fault signal. The effect equates with fully opening the circuit, which has been found to have a definite effect, confirmed by many who have tried it.)

The "Q C" may work, but not in the way intended or described and only as result of luck.

On dear, what can I say.:)

You have either not understood, or have not comprehended, any of the explanation that I have written, and I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain it to you again.

Harvey.

[oab_au]

[QUOTE=Trevor;550856]At the moment with my brain still loose in my skull, bending down makes things spin, so that I am unable to undertake experimental work myself. I hope that someone will have a crack at the following idea. This does not mean that I entirely agree with the mod. involved, which is carried out entirely at the users choice and risk.
(1&2) Bracket. Sheet metal right angle bracket, to rigidly mount the micro switch, using the existing two screws at the outside end of the throttle spindle support. To rise upwards and then outwards to support the switch from underneath, so that the lever moves backwards and forwards. Holes drilled accordingly. Innermost switch mounting holes slotted to allow for adjustment.

A strip of steel is epoxy glued to the outside of the quadrant operated by the throttle peddle cable, so the it protrudes above the edge in order to strike the lever of a micro switch. The switch is mounted to the outside of the throttle spindle by means of suitable bracket.

The switch lever is aligned close to the outside of the quadrant, clear of the second outer quadrant, so that in the closed throttle position, the switch is activated by the protruding strip at the maximum of available over travel. Therefore the switch lever will be released and the N/C contacts close, after the throttle is past part way opened.


This would be funny, if it wasn't so stupidly serious.:(
Here you cobble up a thought, that you will not be testing, and you ask somebody else to try it at their own risk.:eek:You can't be fuggan serious.

You are telling this lucky sucker to glue some bits to the throttle quadrant on the throttle shaft, and go out and try killing themselves, or somebody else.

I am absolutely astounded that you would be so irresponsible as to suggest such a dangeriously modification.:mad:

Harvey.

[oab_au]

The first delivery of "Quick Change" has arrived in Ohio. :D
Only took 14 days to get there.:(

Harvey.

[Trevor]

On dear, what can I say.:)

You have either not understood, or have not comprehended, any of the explanation that I have written, and I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain it to you again.

Harvey.

Anyone who has technical ability will be able to understand and comprehend exactly what I have said, however it is clear that you do not have this ability. Cobbling together circuits from hobby magazines without proper understanding, results in the sort of imperfect design you have produced. Putting a price on such an amateur effort is not on.

[RSVX]

On dear, what can I say.:)

You have either not understood, or have not comprehended, any of the explanation that I have written, and I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain it to you again.

Harvey.

Anyone who has technical ability will be able to understand and comprehend exactly what I have said, however it is clear that you do not have this ability. Cobbling together circuits from hobby magazines without proper understanding, results in the sort of imperfect design you have produced. Putting a price on such an amateur effort is not on.

OK, so you agree to disagree... GREAT!

Let's leave it at that.;)

[Trevor]

This would be funny, if it wasn't so stupidly serious.:(
Here you cobble up a thought, that you will not be testing, and you ask somebody else to try it at their own risk.:eek:You can't be fuggan serious.

You are telling this lucky sucker to glue some bits to the throttle quadrant on the throttle shaft, and go out and try killing themselves, or somebody else.

I am absolutely astounded that you would be so irresponsible as to suggest such a dangeriously modification.:mad:

Harvey.

As is usual sarcasm constitutes the limit of your "fuggan" ability to criticise.:mad:

Better that you explain exactly why it will not work perfectly and what risk is involved.

Please advise in what way any person trying my suggested arrangement can endanger themselves or anyone else. There is no way the added component could jam or affect the throttle even if it came loose. The use of an epoxy glue, is in no way inappropriate as others will appreciate. This is now an acceptable commercial practice.


The arrangement has not been tested for very good reason and this is not required in the circumstances. I am not selling something on a mercenary basis, and have put forward a well founded proposal for anyone interested in trying it. I am confident that it will work very well. The cost could be zero, to any handyman who has on hand, or has access to, surplus components.

Your reaction towards competition is perhaps understandable. However the fact that you are not offering your ideas to members for free is not.:(

[Sir. Nate]

+1 for open source!

[Trevor]

OK, so you agree to disagree... GREAT!

Let's leave it at that.;)

The above post was recorded after I had read the previous posts, and during the time I was in the process of preparing my second post, which therefore followed in turn.

There is no reason why the technical attributes or disadvantages of technical designs, should not be queried on the basis of function, and in the interests of those members who might use them. However sarcasm and expletives, as per Harvey's outburst, should not continue. :(

[oab_au]

Better that you explain exactly why it will not work perfectly and what risk is involved.

Please advise in what way any person trying my suggested arrangement can endanger themselves or anyone else. There is no way the added component could jam or affect the throttle even if it came loose. The use of an epoxy glue, is in no way inappropriate as others will appreciate. This is now an acceptable commercial practice.

:(


You don't realise what the inherent danger in fitting a lever to the throttle shaft, that is attached to the throttle plates, pushing on the spring blade of a micro switch. That at some time may slip behind the spring blade, to have the throttle stuck wide open.

Surely you can see the danger this would put a person to.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

You don't realise what the inherent danger in fitting a lever to the throttle shaft, that is attached to the throttle plates, pushing on the spring blade of a micro switch. That at some time may slip behind the spring blade, to have the throttle stuck wide open.

Surely you can see the danger this would put a person to.

Harvey.

There is absolutely no possibility of what you suggest happening, at full or even part throttle. The striker lever contacts the micro switch lever, only late in the throttle closing movement, and at that point it is opposed only by the micro switch spring pressure. The load the micro switch imposes is negligible and the return throttle spring pressure is very strong.
Furthermore the micro switch lever is laterally rigid, and could not be caused to distort so as to slip over and behind the striker, when driven only by the very small forces involved.

N.B. Even if the MS lever did slip over, to be behind the striker lever, it could only stop the opening of the throttle and this only to the maximum over travel of the switch. Your posts surely represent someone again on their ass tilting at windmills. :lol:


Now something rolling under the throttle peddle, is a very real danger and is applicable to both our arrangements.:lol:

[Myxalplyx]

I'm interested to see some timeslips from the guys who have a good history at the dragstrip. It seems the improvement during the shift would have to show up at the strip.
Harvey stated on the SWF that the QC along with the power mode mod will provide engine braking in all gears. That would be excellent for the twisty backroads.

That wouuld mean someone would have to do a drag strip run, install the kit and do another run soon afterward........in the same day....same conditions. I dunno!

I mean......if you look at the dyno, before the shift it shows a power loss between 1-2 and 2-3. Even if the shift kit 'smoothed' the power delivery, it should net in a slightly better 1/4 mile time due to not losing any power. It does more than that. It shows a gain. If you compared the hp/torque peak of the 'Quick change' kit vs a stock loss between gears, it probably would show more hp/torque 'gain' at the wheels than anything other than a large dose of nitrous or force induction.

This on top of reduced transmission temps from clutchpack slipping should be icing on the cake. I have been driving around with shifting characteristics like this and the car seems to love it. I wouldnt' expect anything less. Have driven like this in my Outback Sport for years.....with turbo and nitrous on it previously. It shifts better than a probably a new Impreza and it's 12 years old. Here's a dyno of my Outback Sport Impreza comparing a stock intake to an Ebay intake. Note the spikes in between gears.

http://home.comcast.net/~thomasck/Ebay1st-3rd_Gear.jpg


This is a Level 10 hydrosystem (Same mod I have on my SVX). If it was that dangerous, wouldn't you think a 70-80lb-ft of torque spike between gears would have destroyed my Impreza's tranny a long time ago? Slow, heat generating shifts will (Everyone knows heat kills the SVXs tranny). It killed my Impreza's tranny when running turbo/nitrous. This shifts is what saved the 2nd tranny. On top of this, do you think those really lean conditions are healthy for your engine (the ones that Wannabe showed)? It must be ok because the engineers designed the shifts and air/fuel ratio like this right? :D Engineers are people too. They aren't perfect.

Protect your tranny, reduce tranny temps and protect your engine by getting your air/fuel ratio in check. :D Remember this....if the engineers got the tranny right, they wouldn't have been failing in the first place. I am not expert and do not have any of the know hows like Trevor and such. I am a simple guy. But my experience with my cars shifting like this have been heaven-like. I hope everything goes ok with Harvey kit. I would snatch one up in a heart beat previously had I known it shifted like Wanna showed.

[RSVX]

The above post was recorded after I had read the previous posts, and during the time I was in the process of preparing my second post, which therefore followed in turn.

There is no reason why the technical attributes or disadvantages of technical designs, should not be queried on the basis of function, and in the interests of those members who might use them. However sarcasm and expletives, as per Harvey's outburst, should not continue. :(

I agree Trevor, however, so long as everyone holds themselves to the same standards.

I would absolutely LOVE to see you two hash something like this out across numerous pages without a single volley fired, by either of you.

But I think that may be a pipe dream.

My major point was that if you see it one way, and Harvey sees it another, and both of you have beaten the horse beyond recognition and cannot agree on the proper answer there is little point in restating it ad nauseum.

[Trevor]

So that no one misses important news, or is not completely informed, I quote the following, which appears within the grubby forum, amongst a series of expletives. ;)

"Trevor, You sir are an idiot and have NO CLUE what you are talking about."

[Myetball]

I've been reading the ongoing debate with considerable irritation. I'm irritated because I see no sense in someone trying to tear holes in a concept without any rubber-meets-the-road facts to back it up. A never ending diatribe attempting to convince us a product won't work is pointless without facts. I don't care how smart someone thinks they are, all the fancy technical talk is just like the stuff some kids stand in to warm their feet unless/until it's applied in a real world application.

I'd really like to see this post focus on the shift kit and "real" experiences, good or bad.

If one is so dead set against this concept then friggin buy/make one and prove your point in the real world.

[Trevor]

I've been reading the ongoing debate with considerable irritation. I'm irritated because I see no sense in someone trying to tear holes in a concept without any rubber-meets-the-road facts to back it up. A never ending diatribe attempting to convince us a product won't work is pointless without facts. I don't care how smart someone thinks they are, all the fancy technical talk is just like the stuff some kids stand in to warm their feet unless/until it's applied in a real world application.

I'd really like to see this post focus on the shift kit and "real" experiences, good or bad.

If one is so dead set against this concept then friggin buy/make one and prove your point in the real world.

I have never stated that the "QC" will not work, only that it will not work exactly in accordance with the theory the designer has described.

I have not claimed that I am specially smart. The talk/text is not fancy, it is simply decisive and accurate.

I am not dead set against the concept, or another's design.

As explained, for good reason I am not in a position to be able to build or test what I have proposed.

There is no reason why I should not set down a design in the interests of members.

I abhor sarcasm, friggin or otherwise. :(

[Myetball]

...:domo:...

[Trevor]

------:woo:-------

[lhopp77]

So that no one misses important news, or is not completely informed, I quote the following, which appears within the grubby forum, amongst a series of expletives. ;)


Just a question--if you think the other forum is so "grubby", why do you bother to go there???? :p

Lee

[TomsSVX]

This has gone on long enough, yes? It is clear there is a certain danger to be aware of when using it. The several warnings I am glad to see come with it allow the user to realize that this may/may not harm your transmission. There is little left to debate here other than arguments in academic pros that are really going nowhere. Please, while the technical discussions are promoted and supported on both sides, the bitterness between you two is astounding. So please make your final statements on the matter and let it rest.

Tom

[Trevor]

In view of the fact the original post covering my proposal has been completely buried as a result of controversy, I now present it again with added detail.

At the moment with my brain still loose in my skull, bending down makes things spin, so that I am unable to undertake experimental work myself. I hope that someone will have a crack at the following idea/design. If more abrupt shifting is desired, I am confident that it will work as well or better than any other arrangement, at minimal cost.

In spite of the fact that my forte is electrical/electronic engineering, I am confident that a system sensing throttle position mechanically, has a great deal of merit. No connection or additional load needs to be applied to any existing sensing circuit, e.g. throttle position. The system is simple, very cost effective and everything involved is easily understood by the user.


Shift modifier, “KISS/RS”. (Simple, Rapid Shift)

Requirement.

On a partial opening of the throttle, insert a resistance in the torque control and line pressure signal circuits connected to the TCU, so as to prevent these from operating. As a result torque control will be eliminated and line pressure increased to controlled pump output pressure.

Features.

Cost effective, simple easily understood system, easily installed by the user at minimal cost i.e. bugger all for those who have a junk box.

Method.

Micro switch operated directly from the throttle spindle, with no additional electrical load applied to existing control circuits.

Components.

Alternative 1. Special bracket & actuator customer made, one S.P.D.T. miniature or standard micro switch, one D.P.D.T. 12 volt 10 -15 amp relay, two carbon resistors, insulated hook up wire, connectors, fastenings.

Alternative 2. Special bracket & actuator customer made, one D.P.D.T. or two S.P.D.T. micro switches, two carbon resistors, insulated hook up wire, connectors, fastenings.

Component Specifications.

Option (1) Micro Switch with lever actuation, S.P.D.T. Size and switching capacity not important. Maximum over travel, which largely depends on maximum lever length and this can be extended. (The existing lever can easily be lengthened by sweat soldering an extension, and a brass/bronze lever is therefore preferable. Otherwise the extension can be epoxy glued.)

Relay, D.P.D.T. 12 Volt operating, say 7 - 15 Amp nominal switching capacity. Otherwise users choice of connecting terminals and mounting etc. Give anything you have in the junk box a try.

Option (2) Micro Switch, D.P.D.T. Maximum switch capacity available within a suitable size. Otherwise as (1) above. An alternative it is to mount two switches in tandem. Again check the junk box.

(1&2) Actuator, comprising a light metal strip 75 mm/3” long, 1-12 mm/3/8-1/2” wide.

(1&2) Bracket. Sheet metal right angle bracket, to rigidly mount the micro switch using the existing two screws at the outside end of the throttle spindle support, which are part of the fixed structure. The bracket to rise upwards and then outwards to support the switch from underneath, so that the lever moves backwards forwards. Holes drilled accordingly, with the Innermost hole slotted, so as to allow for adjustment of the switch.

(1&2) Two carbon film resistors, 180 - 470 ohm, 1 watt, to be each chosen after practical testing

Details.

A strip of steel is epoxy glued to the outside of the inner quadrant operated by the throttle peddle cable, so the it substantially protrudes above the edge, in order to strike the lever of a micro switch. The strip has a larger surface area than required on purpose, so that there will be the maximum of adhesion available.

The micro switch is mounted in a fixed position, to the outside of throttle spindle, by means of suitable bracket. The switch lever is aligned close to the outside of the quadrant, clear of the second outer quadrant, so that in the closed throttle position, the switch is activated at the maximum of available over travel, in an operated position. Therefore the switch will be released after the throttle is part way opened and the normally closed contacts closed.

The normally closed contacts are utilised to operate a relay (1) or directly close the circuitry (2). As a result resistors connected across the two circuits to be modified and which have been intentionally broken, are brought into play. It will be seen that the switch position can be adjusted to set the point of throttle opening, at which the added circuits will become activated.

If a relay is used and a S.P.D.T. micro switch as in (1), the normally open relay contacts are connected across the resistors. An ignition switch controlled auxiliary supply is connected to the relay, and the other side grounded via a lead to one single pole micro switch N.C. contact, with the other connected to the bracket or any other ground point.

Two single pole micro switches mounted in tandem, could be used in lieu of a single double pole switch, if this is difficult to source. The uppermost switch lever can be operated by means of a tab, fastened at a right angle to the lower directly operated lever. The levers should not be rigidly fixed together as this could possibly result in binding.

Exact details can be discussed with anyone wishing to install the system. Suitable micro switches are manufactured by from Cherry Corp. as well many others. Relays are a dime a dozen and many could have one or both items in their junk box.

Option (3). Anyone wishing to test the functions separately and manually, could start by simply connecting two on/off switches in the torque control and line pressure control circuits, each bridged by resistors as above. This would cost peanuts and would provide simple manual on off/off function. Alternatively, a double pole switch could be used to switch the two functions simultaneously The throttle switch could then be added if desired.

N.B. If any member wishes to test and finalise this project, make brackets and source components so at to offer a kit, go for it, you will have my assistance. I have no financial reward in mind and all is for free.

Prospective users must take into account that more abrupt shifting will increase loading on the transmission.

[wannarace928]

Just a quick update: Shift kit has been installed on my daily driver for close to 3 weeks and I am absolutely loving it!:D

http://svxworldforums.com/forum13/585.html

[immortal_suby]

I have about 1 hour of time with mine and so far I like it alot. Got a long trip this weekend to really test it out. From what I have experienced thus far I am not worried at all about blowing up any driveline components. The kit is good.

[oab_au]

So that no one misses important news, or is not completely informed, I quote the following, which appears within the grubby forum, amongst a series of expletives. ;)
."


So that no one misses important news, or is not completely informed,
http://www.svxworldforums.com/forum1/575-11.html
Harvey.

[immortal_suby]

The 280 mile trip to the beach went off without a hitch. I got 25mpg (that surprised the hell out of me at the rate we were going)

I really like the highway passing downshift :D

The kit lets you choose how the AT shifts. It's very cool - you really have alot of control now. With your right foot you can make it shift how you want. The response is very repeatable.
I think if the whole launch hadn't been undermined - maybe if 5 people got it before it was announced so that there would have been more experience with it to prevent the mudslinging and guessing that went on you would be selling a ton of these kits.

[oab_au]

The 280 mile trip to the beach went off without a hitch. I got 25mpg (that surprised the hell out of me at the rate we were going)

I really like the highway passing downshift :D

The kit lets you choose how the AT shifts. It's very cool - you really have alot of control now. With your right foot you can make it shift how you want. The response is very repeatable.
I think if the whole launch hadn't been undermined - maybe if 5 people got it before it was announced so that there would have been more experience with it to prevent the mudslinging and guessing that went on you would be selling a ton of these kits.

Glad you like it Matt.:)
I like the way it sharpens up the overtaking ability of the car. I live in the country, so I don't get to use the "stop light take off" acceleration that it gives, maybe just to accelerate up the on ramp.
I think the way it kicks back a gear, really increases the safety of overtaking on the open road.:cool:

Harvey.

[immortal_suby]

I think the way it kicks back a gear, really increases the safety of overtaking on the open road.:cool:

Harvey.

It grabs the gear and goes! Lots of traffic coming back from the beach today. The shifting was flawless.
Thanks Harvey :D

[speedr]

This seems like a pretty simple device, and probably is just a combination of the TC mod with the small car shift kit principle (with a different method of switching). I think I could get the same results with far less money, and at least then i would know precisely what it does and how.

Perhaps I am totally wrong, but if I am even close why would this cost $140? The price seems to be based more on what people are willing to pay than the cost of parts and the technology inside (case and point: small car shift kit).

This thread seems to be very much what the kit is based on:
http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=439&highlight=torque+control

Now, while i don't think this kit will help the transmission, I believe that no real measurable change in the life expectancy of the transmission or other drivetrain components will occur as long as the owner is not beating on the car.

Those spikes aren't the converter multipliying torque, its from the engine outputting its maximum for a split second straight to the wheels before the parasitic losses of the drivetrain can bog it back down. And the torque converter is not absorbing that shock, its every shaft, gear tooth axle, cv joint, etc all the way down to the road acting like a spring and soaking it up. Being that there are four axles and one pair of gears / clutches or whatever inside the trans at a time in action, the axles or something outside the trans which would be easy to replace probably won't be the first thing to fail.

This kit at wot is like dropping the clutch at full throttle between each gear. Hard driving will wear a trans equipped with this kit out VERY quickly. A responsible driver will probably be fine for a while.

[Sir. Nate]

Perhaps I am totally wrong, but if I am even close why would this cost $140? The price seems to be based more on what people are willing to pay than the cost of parts and the technology inside (case and point: small car shift kit).

I'd already have one if they were around $99

[speedr]

I am going to putsomething together for myself which will be switchable simply to limit the added wear on my tramsmission for daily driving. I drive relatively hard and would rather have the tcu manage things properly. However, i would at times like to have a little more shifting enhancement such as if i visit the strip or hit the twisties. (like an enhanced "power" mode)

my budget for this will be about $25 and i will post my findings here. Any help members would like to offer is greatly appreciated.

[oab_au]

I am going to putsomething together for myself which will be switchable simply to limit the added wear on my tramsmission for daily driving. I drive relatively hard and would rather have the tcu manage things properly. However, i would at times like to have a little more shifting enhancement such as if i visit the strip or hit the twisties. (like an enhanced "power" mode)

my budget for this will be about $25 and i will post my findings here. Any help members would like to offer is greatly appreciated.

I wish you luck.:)

I find that most members don't want to take a risk in experimenting with their car. They want a unit that is designed by some one who knows that the deficiency in the standard auto is, and what changes are needed to safely overcome the problem. That is designed into a modern electronic circuitry that is reliable, problem free, posts no codes, is easy to connect, and well tested.:)

Harvey.

[bwb3]

I do plan to purchase at least one but first need to replace the transmission on the '92 teal. I hope installation is somewhat idiot proof since I can blow home circuits just installing a ceiling fan. As far as cost, business is business and this is not a government handout. You either find it of value or move on.
Gene

[speedr]

Thank you Harvey

I love to tinker, and this has been a project which i have been looking into for a couple of months (reading through the fsm and such). Your product is basically proof of concept for me. Had it been $70 i probably would just buy it, but im not that lazy. I'd rather struggle with it for a couple of weeks, and possibly learn something (hopefully not the hard way). Besides, i need a reason for a hidden toggle switch. I know its gimicky, but toggle switches are so much fun.

[oab_au]

I'd already have one if they were around $99

If the US dollar was not so weak against the Australian dollar it would be cheaper.:)

Harvey.

[immortal_suby]

I do plan to purchase at least one but first need to replace the transmission on the '92 teal. I hope installation is somewhat idiot proof since I can blow home circuits just installing a ceiling fan. As far as cost, business is business and this is not a government handout. You either find it of value or move on.
Gene

It's pretty simple. You don't have to remove the TCU. Just unplug the TCU connectors you tap into, strip back the electrical tape wrapping, and snap on the quick connectors.

[TomsSVX]

If the US dollar was not so weak against the Australian dollar it would be cheaper.:)

Harvey.


I think you are losing more in the customs, shipping them labeled as resale items cannot be cheap.

Tom

[Trevor]

I am going to putsomething together for myself which will be switchable simply to limit the added wear on my tramsmission for daily driving. I drive relatively hard and would rather have the tcu manage things properly. However, i would at times like to have a little more shifting enhancement such as if i visit the strip or hit the twisties. (like an enhanced "power" mode)

my budget for this will be about $25 and i will post my findings here. Any help members would like to offer is greatly appreciated.

If you refer back here to post 180, you will find data to set you on your way, and your budget will be adequate. Three alternative arrangements are included and cover your ideas. :)

[Nevin]

I think you are losing more in the customs, shipping them labeled as resale items cannot be cheap.

Tom

Yeah, no kidding. Why not ship it as an automotive part for repair? That's what I do when I send things to Canada. Cheaper for the guy on the other end to import the parts that way.

[Sir. Nate]

Don't get me wrong, I'm buying one anyway. just not as soon :).

[oab_au]

If you refer back here to post 180, you will find data to set you on your way, and your budget will be adequate. Three alternative arrangements are included and cover your ideas. :)

Yes that would be Faster

Just say if you need a link to them.:)

Harvey.

[oab_au]

People ask me, "where do you get it?":)

You get it here.:) http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=45197

Harvey.

[92svx95]

Went on a mild adventure over the weekend. Put about 200+ mileage on the QC. I really like it. Passing cars on the freeway is really nice. =] Under normal driving it is really smooth. You don't even know it's there until you mash the throttle. once again, Thx Harvey. =]

[Trevor]

When I design something I subscribe to the "KISS" principal, so it is pretty simple.
It uses a LM741 Op-Amp configured as a comparator, comparing a regulated set voltage to the Throttle Position Sensors voltage. When the TP voltage reaches 1.8 V the Op-Amp sets to turn on a transistor to operate a DP/DT relay.

Why not a simple transistor driven voltage sensitive DPDT relay? I gather there is a direct connection to the TPS. This means that whenever the throttle position provides 1.8 V. or more, torque reduction can not occur and line pressure runs free, regardless.

One half turns the TCUs Torque Control line off the ECU and on to a regulated 4.5V, that it can pull up and down happily.

This indicates that the torque control signal is applied to the output from a 4.5 volt regulated supply. Phil has advised that the torque control is a binary switch not a voltage. It is either On or Off. Therefore the described arrangement will ask the torque control to short circuit a voltage regulated supply, backed up by 14 volts. Interesting stuff.

The other side of the relay inserts a resistor in the A solenoids control line to limit its signal to 5%. This action keeps both the ECU/TCU from posting trouble codes.

The circuit looks like this, the Throttle pressure signal is a 12V duty cycle that is run through the dropping resistor to reduce the signal to a 5V. signal to mix with the 5V shift signal. It is therefore claimed that the shift signal to the solenoid is at 5v. The inclusion of the resistor to allow the two signals to drive the solenoid even though they may be opposite. Opposite? At negative potential? This happens when the throttle is wide open its duty cycle signal is 5%, when the shift is to operate the shift voltage is increased to about 80% to soften the engagement, if the resistor was not used one line would short out the other line, Why? They are of the same polarity. so it acts as an isolator, or voltage divider. In order to operate as a voltage divider the so called ‘throttle signal’ must be at negative potential.

Everything indicates that the resistor circuit must be at negative potential, which it is not.

When the Small Cars Shift Kit is used, the reduced resistance in the Throttle line causes a higher line pressure that (?than) would normally be used, but even with this in place, a full throttle change still has the line pressure reduced through the shift line, Exactly how? so it really does nothing but fool the driver into thinking it is producing a solid change. (Not according to those who have it. The secondary resistor included in the kit is of high resistance and is included only to prevent a fault signal. The effect equates with fully opening the circuit, which has been found to have a definite effect, confirmed by many who have tried it.)

The "Q C" may work, but not in the way intended or described and only as result of luck.

After reading Harvey’s post #153 and posting a reply as above, it was clear to me that the writer was using words and terms with which he is not familiar, therefore one of two situations applied.

Someone else had designed the “QC” circuitry and or, the writer was being intentionally confusing so as to hide detail. I therefore posted #158 as above by way of obtaining clarification, and received #161 in reply. This excuse confirmed that the writer was out of his depth, regarding the terminology he was using and someone else was involved.

It was not long before I twigged to the fact that a hobby kit was being used, as the required knowledge to design the described circuitry was beyond that of the alleged designer. A check through catalogues has disclosed that this is indeed correct and plagiarism is rife.

The “QC” comprises Jaycar Electronics Australia's universal voltage switch, catalogue number KC-5377 and their enclosure/box UB3, HB-6013. These two items are available here in N.Z. for a total price of less than NZ$40-00, with a discount for lots of five or more. In Australia, where the “QC ” vendor is based, one would expect an even better price. Units or ten have been mentioned by the distributor, which is significant.

Complete assembly data covering the kit is published in “Performance Electronics for Cars”, an Australian publication first published 2004. Their description titled, “How it Works” as below, is enlightening and discloses from where the wording, so poorly put together in post #153, was derived.

----"The simple voltage switch relies on comparator ICa (Operational amplifier), which compares the input to a reference level. The input voltage is divided by two 1meg ohm resistors which apply one half of the voltage to the inverting pin of IC1. Zener diode ZD2 and a 100nf capacitor protect against transient voltage on the input signal. etc. etc. ----"

It is easy to see from where strange reference to a voltage divider in post #153 was obtained. This next piece of text is also interesting, in view of the conflicting wording referring to hysteresis in post #153.

----]“Hysteresis has been added to prevent the output from oscillating at the trigger voltage. Basically the hysteresis is the difference between the between the switch on and switch off voltages and this is set using potentiometer VR2.” ----

Two resistors across the relay output, will turn the assembled voltage switch kit into a “QC”. However an interesting anomaly is the text in Harvey’s description i.e.,
"One half turns the TCUs Torque Control line off the ECU and on to a regulated 4.5V, that it can pull up and down happily.”
This surely is not the method in fact applied. Refer my post #158 above.

In view of the fact that the now plagiarised design has been published commercially, intellectual property rights will apply. This means that Harvey could be covertly operating beyond the law. Jason/ SVX Parts Central, could also become drawn into any possible litigation. Granted, due to the limited sales, the publishers would probably decide that court proceedings would not be cost effective.

I am not at all concerned that Harvey has used a kit set for his project, a logical idea, good on him if he is willing to accept the risk. What is not on, is the blarney of writing himself up as the designer of intricate circuitry. There surely is no shame in being honest.

[oab_au]

No that is what you said you would use Faster

Quote:
"Could be that i only thought this was the way to do it.
I am bloody well sure I can do it using a Jaycar electronics kit
KC-5377 costing about 35 bucks, but might have to connect an extra relay to be sure the current is not too much for maybe an extra 5 bucks."

As shown here. Bad language warning.:eek:
http://www.svxworldforums.com/forum1/575-11.html
Harvey.

[Trevor]

No that is what you said you would use Faster

Quote:
"Could be that i only thought this was the way to do it.
I am bloody well sure I can do it using a Jaycar electronics kit
KC-5377 costing about 35 bucks, but might have to connect an extra relay to be sure the current is not too much for maybe an extra 5 bucks."

As shown here. Bad language warning.:eek:
http://www.svxworldforums.com/forum1/575-11.html
Harvey.


No doubt he must have a catalogue and also a few clues. :lol: Bad language would be a necessity to get anything across in your grubby prefered choice of habitat and sales platform. :barf:

Good side step, but the facts still stand, as someone will find when they examine your "QC". A genuine photograph of the innards would make an in interesting feature for this thread. I do mean genuine, not a lash up with the same intent as your description. Not to worry, the truth will prevail given time.

Your next ploy as is usual, will no doubt be to bury my post in a barrage of glib. Go to it. :lol:

[Myetball]

Didn't somebody get :b&:ned from that "grubby habitat" for being a total and continual PITA?

:rolleyes:

[lhopp77]

If I was going to buy a shift kit, I would feel very comfortable with buying this one. I have seen much more detailed information on it with dyno run data than I ever saw on the smallcar kit. Of course, maybe I missed detailed information on that one--but I doubt it. :)

Lee

[RSVX]

Didn't somebody get :b&:ned from that "grubby habitat" for being a total and continual PITA?

:rolleyes:

That's what I am saying, he claims high horse, and then pulls that... talk about self contradictory.

[Trevor]

That's what I am saying, he claims high horse, and then pulls that... talk about self contradictory.

I presume I am intended to be the target of the above remark. I do not claim "high horse". :confused:

It appears that many are unable to assimilate more than three or four simple words. Understanding requires a little concentration and comprehension. The essence of my post is in pointing out deception which has occurred, as a means of self gratification. In no way can this be considered to be an honest objective, particularly when there is a profit motive.

P.S. If I had made the above statement, my post would be history. Read the rules. Obviously it is an advantage to be part of the executive.

[bwb3]

When a person develops a modification that provides an upgrade to the stock SVX systems, I would expect that they would utilize components that are available from other manufacturers to assemble the final product offered. If the QC has some "off the shelf parts", so what? I smell sour grapes here. Pardon the bad English. I have been living in the South of the U.S.A. for too long.:)
With due respect,
Gene

[Trevor]

If I was going to buy a shift kit, I would feel very comfortable with buying this one. I have seen much more detailed information on it with dyno run data than I ever saw on the smallcar kit. Of course, maybe I missed detailed information on that one--but I doubt it. :)
Lee

You most certainly did miss the detail covering the development of the smallcar kit. A great deal of incorrect input from Harvey had to be sorted, It was a laborious process and all is recorded within the archives.

In that instance there was no high horse self endorsement by the originator, and he looked for no special recognition regarding his idea.

[Trevor]

When a person develops a modification that provides an upgrade to the stock SVX systems, I would expect that they would utilize components that are available from other manufacturers to assemble the final product offered. If the QC has some "off the shelf parts", so what? I smell sour grapes here. Pardon the bad English. I have been living in the South of the U.S.A. for too long.:)
With due respect,
Gene

Why is it that people do not read that which is written and put a slant on the situation to suite what they preconceive? :(
(N.B. The final statement within my post:-

"I am not at all concerned that Harvey has used a kit set for his project, a logical idea, good on him if he is willing to accept the risk. What is not on, is the blarney of writing himself up as the designer of intricate circuitry."

If off the shelf components had been used to assemble an original design the situation would be vastly different. Using the exact design, as well as a circuit board produced by another and inferring that this constitutes a personal achievement, is another matter entirely. There are no sour grapes, but there is a desire for truth.

[Trevor]

Didn't somebody get :b&:ned from that "grubby habitat" for being a total and continual PITA?

:rolleyes:

Yes that was "faster", as he did not grovel to the proprietor of the swearing, tearing, grubby habitat. Not good for his business so pull the plug. :lol:

If you have something to say, be honest and open about and don't piss about hiding behind your monitor. :(

[poweredx2]

Its truly amazing when someone creates a product that do improve the performance of the svx and you continue to get the negative replies.I am purchasing one soon and have a feeling what those dyno spikes truly are,I run two a/f ratio meters on my svx an with full throttle shifts the right engine meter goes blank,I think the QC just prevents that loss of power during shifts.Take any late model acura legend or vigor or a eary model saturn,those are just a few cars that will chirp second gear withthe stock motor and auto tranny plus they already have 200k plus mile already.No one has a gun to my back to buy one and Thanks Harvey for creating this product that didn't come from ebay.I actually had a lucky day afew years back to meet Matt,based on his experience with the QC alone is good enough for.Also I didn't write this to T anyone off and if I did I apologize,we have to realize that any product created for the svx is stepping into new ground and if truly successful this guy can try this on other vechicles.

[Myetball]

Yeah, those dyno spikes may look scary to some folks but really how often do most folks run their SVX at full throttle. I believe time will prove this to be a worthwhile product.

[RSVX]

Yes that was "faster", as he did not grovel to the proprietor of the swearing, tearing, grubby habitat. Not good for his business so pull the plug. :lol:

If you have something to say, be honest and open about and don't piss about hiding behind your monitor. :(

That's funny, because I dont grovel to him, and I am not banned.

Hell I am one of the people that got him banned from here... Clearly we are not the only ones who see the trouble maker in you.

[Trevor]

That's funny, because I dont grovel to him, and I am not banned.

Hell I am one of the people that got him banned from here... Clearly we are not the only ones who see the trouble maker in you.

Your post contitutes a sly distortion of the facts as you have quoted my reply exclusive to a post by Mteball.

What is more,my efforts to insure that members are not provided with incorrect information, does not make me a trouble maker. However, what the hell, your opinion does not concern me.

[lhopp77]

You most certainly did miss the detail covering the development of the smallcar kit. A great deal of incorrect input from Harvey had to be sorted, It was a laborious process and all is recorded within the archives.

In that instance there was no high horse self endorsement by the originator, and he looked for no special recognition regarding his idea.

I still don't recall it ever showing dyno plots?? :confused:

Lee

[Trevor]

I still don't recall it ever showing dyno plots?? :confused:

Lee

There was never any suggestion by the originator or anyone else, that improved engine performance was an issue being addressed, or even considered. :confused:

[RSVX]

Didn't somebody get :b&:ned from that "grubby habitat" for being a total and continual PITA?

:rolleyes:

Didn't somebody get :b&:ned from that "grubby habitat" for being a total and continual PITA?

:rolleyes:

That's what I am saying, he claims high horse, and then pulls that... talk about self contradictory.

I presume I am intended to be the target of the above remark. I do not claim "high horse". :confused:

It appears that many are unable to assimilate more than three or four simple words. Understanding requires a little concentration and comprehension. The essence of my post is in pointing out deception which has occurred, as a means of self gratification. In no way can this be considered to be an honest objective, particularly when there is a profit motive.

P.S. If I had made the above statement, my post would be history. Read the rules. Obviously it is an advantage to be part of the executive.

Yes that was "faster", as he did not grovel to the proprietor of the swearing, tearing, grubby habitat. Not good for his business so pull the plug. :lol:

If you have something to say, be honest and open about and don't piss about hiding behind your monitor. :(

Your post contitutes a sly distortion of the facts as you have quoted my reply exclusive to a post by Mteball.

What is more,my efforts to insure that members are not provided with incorrect information, does not make me a trouble maker. However, what the hell, your opinion does not concern me.


But you see, you CLEARLY missed that I had included myself in that conversation.

So, make sure you pronounce that you got your facts wrong here!:lol:

[oab_au]

Why is it that people do not read that which is written and put a slant on the situation to suite what they preconceive? :(
(N.B. The final statement within my post:-

"I am not at all concerned that Harvey has used a kit set for his project, a logical idea, good on him if he is willing to accept the risk. What is not on, is the blarney of writing himself up as the designer of intricate circuitry."

If off the shelf components had been used to assemble an original design the situation would be vastly different. Using the exact design, as well as a circuit board produced by another and inferring that this constitutes a personal achievement, is another matter entirely. There are no sour grapes, but there is a desire for truth.

In view of Trevor's quest for the truth, and my insistence to “tell it like it is”, I must put his slanderous accusations to test.

Firstly he accuses me of not being capable of designing an intricate electronic circuitry. Second he accuses me of stealing somebody else’s circuit board, for my own use.

To deal with the first, I am quite comfortable in designing any electronic circuitry. I have all ways had electronics as a hobby since I built my first crystal radio, moving through the various stages to achieve my Amateur radio operator's licence.

In the early 70s I did a 12 months full-time Diploma course on Computer Technology with Control Data, on the main-frame computers of the time. This included digital and analogue electronics. I constructed my first Vector Graphics computer in 73, using the original Z80 processor. I then designed a digital controller for an automatic, automotive, spring winding machine that I also designed.
I continued through various stages to teach Automotive Engineering at Sydney Technical collage, where I wrote and taught an ‘Electronics for Automotive Mechanics’ course, and was instrumental in changing the way electrical was taught to move it into the modern era.

Configuring Linier ICs in the way that I have, may be new to Trevor, but it is a basic building block for all electronic designers. Phil uses it in his digital discriminator to clean the signal between the ECU and the lap top.

I am absolutely confident in designing and offering this circuitry, in my Quick Change

Second. I designed my own circuit board, using a CAD program to suit the circuit that I wanted to use. I also designed it to allow me to build the board easily, as not having a right arm increases the degree of difficaulty in anything that I do, hence the low production of 10 a week. As can be seen in the picture it bares the Slick Shift logo both on the silk screen, and copper sides.

I now demand an apology of the same prominence as the slanderous accusations.

Harvey.

[immortal_suby]

Its truly amazing when someone creates a product that do improve the performance of the svx and you continue to get the negative replies.I am purchasing one soon and have a feeling what those dyno spikes truly are,I run two a/f ratio meters on my svx an with full throttle shifts the right engine meter goes blank,I think the QC just prevents that loss of power during shifts.Take any late model acura legend or vigor or a eary model saturn,those are just a few cars that will chirp second gear withthe stock motor and auto tranny plus they already have 200k plus mile already.No one has a gun to my back to buy one and Thanks Harvey for creating this product that didn't come from ebay.I actually had a lucky day afew years back to meet Matt,based on his experience with the QC alone is good enough for.Also I didn't write this to T anyone off and if I did I apologize,we have to realize that any product created for the svx is stepping into new ground and if truly successful this guy can try this on other vechicles.

I remember our meeting well! I also remember how awesome your svx sounded. I am very anxious to see your timeslips after you install the QC shift kit since you have so much experience at the track and you know what your car runs. Hopefully it won't all go up in wheelspin. The power mode mod along with the shift kit is a great combination.

[lhopp77]

There was never any suggestion by the originator or anyone else, that improved engine performance was an issue being addressed, or even considered. :confused:

Well, now let's be precise as you seem to like it. I don't think the designer is claiming any "improved engine performance" as you state it. All I see are possible indications of some drivetrain efficiencies with better shifts but no engine performance claims. It seems that the dyno plots speak for themselves. Of course, again--maybe I missed something. :p

(I must add though--that I have ONLY a minute percentage of the technical knowledge that you AND Harvey have. I am envious of BOTH of you and fully agree with young TOM's earlier post.)

Lee

[Trevor]

Well, now let's be precise as you seem to like it. I don't think the designer is claiming any "improved engine performance" as you state it. All I see are possible indications of some drivetrain efficiencies with better shifts but no engine performance claims. It seems that the dyno plots speak for themselves. Of course, again--maybe I missed something. :p

(I must add though--that I have ONLY a minute percentage of the technical knowledge that you AND Harvey have. I am envious of BOTH of you and fully agree with young TOM's earlier post.)

Lee

My post in fact referred to the designer of the small car kit and had nothing to do with the "CQ". However I somewhat understand the reason for your confusion.

What is more research within this thread, will disclose that I went to some lengths in assisting Harvey in his claim of there being slightly more power at the wheels, as a result of the fitting of his "CQ". Many here were mixed up in this regard due to his wording.

[oab_au]

My post in fact referred to the designer of the small car kit and had nothing to do with the "CQ". However I somewhat understand the reason for your confusion.

What is more research within this thread, will disclose that I went to some lengths in assisting Harvey in his claim of there being slightly more power at the wheels, as a result of the fitting of his "CQ". Many here were mixed up in this regard due to his wording.

I now demand an apology of the same prominence as the slanderous accusations.

Harvey.

[bwb3]

I just wish you all would take a deep breath and stop this crap. Great minds on all sides. Life is too short for all this BS. I hope hatchets can be buried and we go on with to-the-point tech talk. Everyone involved needs to just stop responding to posts that do not provide meaningfull information to us noobs that are searching for answers. The poetry I've just labored through on both sides (both forums) is a waste of my time, as is this nonsense about who is posting what. What ever happened to "I agree to disagree". Sorry if I offend anyone. Flame each other in PM's and leave the rest of us out of this, please.

Gene

[wannarace928]

I've put quite a few miles on my teal now with mixed city/highway driving and everything is still perfect.

My ebony will be getting its transmission fixed soon, and I plan having the QC installed on it as well. :D:cool:

[poweredx2]

I plan on getting a prm intake also and a few other mods,wheelspin is in check,all my front tires have a threadware rating 0f at least 200,plus I have some new track lite rims I need to try out,hoping to hit a low 9.5 in the 1/8 mile on motor.The QC alone should give me a tenth,right now I'm around a 9.64 with a 2.2 60ft.If all else fell I still have some drag radials in storage.

[Trevor]

I just wish you all would take a deep breath and stop this crap. Great minds on all sides. Life is too short for all this BS. I hope hatchets can be buried and we go on with to-the-point tech talk. Everyone involved needs to just stop responding to posts that do not provide meaningfull information to us noobs that are searching for answers. The poetry I've just labored through on both sides (both forums) is a waste of my time, as is this nonsense about who is posting what. What ever happened to "I agree to disagree". Sorry if I offend anyone. Flame each other in PM's and leave the rest of us out of this, please.

Gene

BS, crap, flaming, and hatchets are not involved here. Technical talk to the point, most certainly is. If the contrived technical content of some the text bores you, pass it by.

The issue/point is that information regarding both the operating principle and the design of the "QC", has been put before members incorrectly, Both describe a commercial product offered here, for monetary gain. This is matter important and worthy of exact confirmation.

[Phast SVX]

There is nothing I hate more than someone putting a box around another product, placing a sticker on it, and selling it for a large profit instead of helping out the community.

Bad form

Trevor goes, I go.

[immortal_suby]

Accusations are all I see. Replied to with a picture and explanation of the originality of the kit. The latter being unanswered. I believe the bad form lies with the stone thrower.

[BRADY]

I am buying one.

Thanks for putting in the work to get it to the stage that it can be sold and installed with relative ease.

[Trevor]

Accusations are all I see. Replied to with a picture and explanation of the originality of the kit. The latter being unanswered. I believe the bad form lies with the stone thrower.

The post was answered, but along with all my other posts it has been removed. The bosses have decreed that I have no right of reply or query. None of the posts taken down included anything which in fact broke the posted rules.

I have no expectations that this one will survive very long.

[Trevor]

There is nothing I hate more than someone putting a box around another product, placing a sticker on it, and selling it for a large profit instead of helping out the community.

Bad form

Trevor goes, I go.


As I pointed out in the previous post, I am under fire and censorship from the rulers here. Right of reply has been denied me. I have been accused of telling lies, but the post involved has been removed, thus denying me of the relative defensive evidence.

I posted on the SVX World Forums, under the pseudonym "Faster", without disclosing my name. This is common practice as will be disclosed here within the members profiles, and is in no way dishonest.

It is now on record that the administration here co-operated with the rival site, which I have described as grubby for good reason, in tracing my identity. In this intrigue they provided records from this site, so that a match could be established. This information was exactly published on the grubby site but has since been removed.

One expects these sorts of record to be kept private and secure. I hold those involved in contempt. This post will probably disappear as did a thread I started titled, Posts by Trevor, which included evidence of criticism and interference from an administrator. My only hope is that it was read by a few, before removal.

There are facts/circumstances which members have a right to be made aware of. However this place is now run contrary to principles the world holds dear to the U.S. Opposing a dictatorship can lead towards a quick end and it is possible that this may be my fate. If so be sure that it was agaist my wishes.

I may be old, but I am not stupid much less senile. :D

Sincerely, Trevor.

P.S.
Posted by budfreak, June 24th 2008. in SVX World Forums, Thread “The Quick Change“ Post #191.

Copied and pasted Quote. ---- "The thread has been deleted. RSVX posted up a photo shot of our forums admin panel showing all of Fasters IP's along with a photo of their admin panel with Trevors IP's. Needless to say, Perfect match."

[RSVX]

There is nothing I hate more than someone putting a box around another product, placing a sticker on it, and selling it for a large profit instead of helping out the community.

Bad form

Trevor goes, I go.

See my last comment below before you jump to unfounded conclusions.

BS, crap, flaming, and hatchets are not involved here. Technical talk to the point, most certainly is. If the contrived technical content of some the text bores you, pass it by.

The issue/point is that information regarding both the operating principle and the design of the "QC", has been put before members incorrectly, Both describe a commercial product offered here, for monetary gain. This is matter important and worthy of exact confirmation.

In reference to the above two quotes, the posts debating this have been re-instated HERE (http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?p=553599#post553599).

Accusations are all I see. Replied to with a picture and explanation of the originality of the kit. The latter being unanswered. I believe the bad form lies with the stone thrower.

The post was answered, but along with all my other posts it has been removed. The bosses have decreed that I have no right of reply or query. None of the posts taken down included anything which in fact broke the posted rules.

I have no expectations that this one will survive very long.

In reference to the above two posts. I agree with Matt (immortal_suby) here. Trevor, you offer nothing but conjecture and assumptions when it comes to Harvey's product. If you are SO SURE that he has done what you said and you TRULY wanted to help the community rather than harm Harvey you would purchase one of these, and dissect it for your proof. Until you do this, your claims hold no merit. All you do by continuing your baseless assumptions and accusations is discredit yourself. So by all means, carry on.

[Myxalplyx]

I respect most of the opinions given here this site. Trevor has some good points. Harvey as well! Criticism, I have learned is good but can do a lot of damage. In that respect, I feel that Trevor should be allowed to 'carry-on' what he does.

In the meantime, Harvey, please just let your product prove itself out. Sometimes, a product can answer more questions than the maker of the product itself. The dyno plot I saw is awesome. It can scare some people off depending on how people interpret it. Despite the Level 10 hydrosystem I have, I STILL plan on getting your product. My $$$ isn't quite right at the moment, which is actually rare for me. I actually can't wait to get it though. It doesn't matter if you started it from scratch or rebranded it. My take on that is that even if it is something available for other people in some way shape or form, it sure as hell was not reported available all these years, let along used. Kudos for making this kit available for people.


There is a lot to be learned here. I am a huge fan of testing things out and reporting the actual results, instead of speculation and theory. Things are looking positive at the moment with little or no negative results. Let's hope it stays that way.

If anyone has the $$$, resources or time to test out what Trevor suggests, please do so. He may be offering invaluable information. No need to pit both ideas against each other when both can be built, tested and compared. Report results and keep moving. Thanks for listening/reading. :)

[Tim]

I respect most of the opinions given here this site. Trevor has some good points. Harvey as well! Criticism, I have learned is good but can do a lot of damage. In that respect, I feel that Trevor should be allowed to 'carry-on' what he does.

If anyone has the $$$, resources or time to test out what Trevor suggests, please do so. He may be offering invaluable information. No need to pit both ideas against each other when both can be built, tested and compared. Report results and keep moving. Thanks for listening/reading. :)

+2.

If the product works well then great. If it doesn't then I'm sure revision 2 would correct those issues. Everyone who buys it understands theres a potential risk or side effect, just like all products on the market.

[92svx95]

I like my QC shift kit. It is very controllable. When you need it to shift quickly it does just that. Other than that its very smooth under normal driving.

[Trevor]

+2.

If the product works well then great. If it doesn't then I'm sure revision 2 would correct those issues. Everyone who buys it understands theres a potential risk or side effect, just like all products on the market.

Thank you Tim. Sane logical words, amongst much else containing little fact.

It should be noted that throughout all of this, I have never suggested that the "QC" will not, or does not work. I have in fact put considerable effort into supporting Harvey's suggestion of possible increased power at the wheels, for a short time during gear changes. It is confirmed that I am the only one contributing here, or elsewhere, who knows exactly how the "QC" works.

The quite severe argument concerning side effects, has been exclusively addressed by Harvey and another member.

[odepaj]

Second. I designed my own circuit board, using a CAD program to suit the circuit that I wanted to use. I also designed it to allow me to build the board easily, as not having a right arm increases the degree of difficaulty in anything that I do, hence the low production of 10 a week. As can be seen in the picture it bares the Slick Shift logo both on the silk screen, and copper sides.

I now demand an apology of the same prominence as the slanderous accusations.

Harvey.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10906&d=1214103897
http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10907&d=1214103927


There is nothing I hate more than someone putting a box around another product, placing a sticker on it, and selling it for a large profit instead of helping out the community.

Bad form

Trevor goes, I go.

I think Harvey just gave some pretty good proof that he designed the system and is in fact NOT using another companies design.

If what essentially is common everyday business practice bothers you, you might not want to buy anything again. No doubt, you've got things that are copies of other products on your own car (the hood with scoop perhaps?).

Not everyone can spend countless hours designing and building something and then not want to market it.....

(Put together an exact copy of your turbo setup and I'll buy it tomorrow, if you sell it at zero profit just so you can help out a fellow forum member)

Ask LAN to sell you a St2 kit for ZERO profit......it'll never happen. Ask Dayle to sell you an o2 sensor for the same price that I get better brand o2's for.

In all honesty, the "Trevor goes, I go." ending of your post is infact bad form.

Don't take my post for more than what it is. I'm not here to stir up trouble with you or other members, I just don't like the one-sided posts and constant flaming. I'd like people to take a step back and look at it from a different perspective.

I too, would have liked to have more info on the QC than what was initially given. Harvey didn't post about it right away, and that's fine with me. He would have came here when he wanted to.

I would also still like a few more questions answered before I decide on spending money or not. In all honesty, not everything has really been laid out in black and white on a marketing stand point. I think this is what is throwing alot of people off, this is NOT a forum member creating something JUST to help the community. This needs to be viewed as a businessman trying to market something he has invested time and money into. Much like LAN with ECUtune.

If you expect Harvey to give away EVERY little secret and even design plans, while still selling it to you for no profit, ask LAN to do the same and see how far you get in that conversation.......

I hope no one took offense, just stating my opinion on the matter.




Dustin

[oab_au]

As there is some conjecture about the originality of my Quick Change, I have dug out some old photos of the development.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=1178&cat=recent&limit=recent
The four stages (top left) show the research model that I made to develop the action that was needed to do the job that I wanted. This unit used a 1 of 10 chip to allow me to experiment with the change process.

Top right is the first working design, superseded by bottom left that is the model. That Jason and Tina are using, they were built on circuit boards that hand etched.

Bottom right is the final production model.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=1179&cat=recent&limit=recent
Second photo is of the research model in my car, this was in about Feb 2007

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=1177&cat=recent&limit=recent
http://www.subaru-svx.net/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=1176&cat=recent&limit=recent
Third and fourth photos show the unit that has been in my car since April 2007, it is still doing service in my car now. As you can see it is an early working circuit, built on a punched board, before I etched a Printed board. The circuitry is the same, it just developed into the production one, that is the Quick Change now.

Harvey.

[Trevor]

Harvey,

When looking at the board which bares the words “Slick Shift” V11”, and which you describe as your final production model, please indicate the components which deliver a regulated 4.5 volts to be switched onto the TCU control line, as per you original text below. Here you specify a requireiment for two regulated voltages.
This part of your design has always confused me.
Also which resistor is inserted into the A control line?


It uses a LM741 Op-Amp configured as a comparator, comparing a regulated set voltage to the Throttle Position Sensors voltage. When the TP voltage reaches 1.8 V the Op-Amp sets to turn on a transistor to operate a DP/DT relay. One half turns the TCUs Torque Control line off the ECU and on to a regulated 4.5V, that it can pull up and down happily. The other side of the relay inserts a resistor in the A solenoids control line to limit its signal to 5%. This action keeps both the ECU/TCU from posting trouble codes.

[Sir. Nate]

Would you be willing to put up a circuit diagram?

[oab_au]

Harvey,

When looking at the board which bares the words “Slick Shift” V11”, and which you describe as your final production model, please indicate the components which deliver a regulated 4.5 volts to be switched onto the TCU control line, as per you original text below. Here you specify a requireiment for two regulated voltages.
This part of your design has always confused me.
Also which resistor is inserted into the A control line?


It uses a LM741 Op-Amp configured as a comparator, comparing a regulated set voltage to the Throttle Position Sensors voltage. When the TP voltage reaches 1.8 V the Op-Amp sets to turn on a transistor to operate a DP/DT relay. One half turns the TCUs Torque Control line off the ECU and on to a regulated 4.5V, that it can pull up and down happily. The other side of the relay inserts a resistor in the A solenoids control line to limit its signal to 5%. This action keeps both the ECU/TCU from posting trouble codes.



No.
I am sure you can work it out when you by one.
Harvey.

[oab_au]

Would you be willing to put up a circuit diagram?

Not at this time Nate.:)

Harvey.

[Myxalplyx]

****Deleted****

[immortal_suby]

Thanks again Harvey,
My SVX is shifting brilliantly. :D

[Trevor]

No.
I am sure you can work it out when you by one.
Harvey.

I am confident that my money would not buy/purchase, an unadulterated example. I will pass the offer by. :lol:

[oab_au]

Thanks again Harvey,
My SVX is shifting brilliantly. :D

Funny you should say that Matt, mine is too.:D

Harvey.

[Trevor]

See my last comment below before you jump to unfounded conclusions.

In reference to the above two quotes, the posts debating this have been re-instated HERE (http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?p=553599#post553599).

In reference to the above two posts. I agree with Matt (immortal_suby) here. Trevor, you offer nothing but conjecture and assumptions when it comes to Harvey's product. If you are SO SURE that he has done what you said and you TRULY wanted to help the community rather than harm Harvey you would purchase one of these, and dissect it for your proof. Until you do this, your claims hold no merit. All you do by continuing your baseless assumptions and accusations is discredit yourself. So by all means, carry on.

I note that one point was omitted and there has still been no comment regarding, the post as below which appears on your opposition's site and illustrates a severe breach of privacy. The post also records close, official secret co-operation with a site, which many here will consider an abhorrent SVX venue.

"The thread has been deleted. RSVX posted up a photo shot of our forums admin panel showing all of Fasters IP's along with a photo of their admin panel with Trevors IP's. Needless to say, Perfect match". :confused:

[RSVX]

I note that one point was omitted and there has still been no comment regarding, the post as below which appears on your opposition's site and illustrates a severe breach of privacy. The post also records close, official secret co-operation with a site, which many here will consider an abhorrent SVX venue.

"The thread has been deleted. RSVX posted up a photo shot of our forums admin panel showing all of Fasters IP's along with a photo of their admin panel with Trevors IP's. Needless to say, Perfect match". :confused:



If you want to discuss something with me outside of the scope of this thread, by all means PM me. But to touch on it briefly, you are the ONLY person I hear from regarding this, so yes the masses must truly be speaking.

Back to my comment, about your methods and intentions. A response would be appreciated, but is clearly not expected.