More brakes......

[odepaj]

The STi Brembo's are a swap for the WRX ('06-'07 TR's anyways). So what are the chances that we could use the '07 TR calipers? They are alittle smaller then the Brembo's so we may find something that works. I think the TR brakes are the same as the ver.V or VI JDM STi? Subaru 4pots.




Dustin

[YourConfused]

What are you doing home at 10pm on a sat night? looser!

[odepaj]

What are you doing home at 10pm on a sat night? looser!

I was just getting ready to leave :D


Now its time for: "Working with a Hang-over" :lol:

[black beast]

Yay! HANGOVER WORK IS FUN!!!! just dont turn any lights on, or make any fast moves, or drop anything, aw hell go back to sleep!

[GreenMarine]

Believe me this stuff has all been discussed before... Search for brake upgrades and you'll find it... Short answer though - STi Brembo's bolt up to our cars but sit differently on our hubs so the STi rotors won't work. Solution? Have custom rotors made (good luck with that)... The "Subaru" red calipers would probably work with a bracket but then again, use a bracket and you'll probably need different rotors (since WRX brakes are smaller than ours)...

If you really want a set of aftermarket "multi-piston" brakes (and want to throw away alot of money) then go to http://www.revolutionbrake.com... There you'll find a few ready made kits for the SVX... I have only heard of one or two SVX's that have actually done it though...

Try to remember, most of us that origionally started out looking to do an STi big brake swap gave up after seeing that the cost wouldn't really outweigh the benifit. It would cost too much to engineer the parts. It could be done no problem, but the cost of making the parts and the benifit that would come from it just doesn't make sense... Not to mention that if you just swap your pads, brake lines and rotors then you'll already have brakes that can stop you plenty fast. So do that, the Revolution Brake kit, or go down the road of fabrication. Either way it's kinda pointless to go asking about the impreza calipers and specs since most of us haven't dealt with them and wouldn't be able to give you FACTS. For facts on the calipers and specs them you'll need to go to a sight like NASIOC and find some brake guru's. Good luck...

~ Chris

[GreenMarine]

The STi Brembo's are a swap for the WRX ('06-'07 TR's anyways). So what are the chances that we could use the '07 TR calipers? They are alittle smaller then the Brembo's so we may find something that works. I think the TR brakes are the same as the ver.V or VI JDM STi? Subaru 4pots.




Dustin

On a side note... The STi Brembos aren't a direct swap as the TR's have WRX hubs and the STi's have larger hubs... SO if you see one with STi calipers then he has either swapped hubs, or he's had an adapter plate made (just like we'd have to do)...

~ Chris

[cozykat]

I was just getting ready to leave :D


Now its time for: "Working with a Hang-over" :lol:

So how did it work out? I got your message at like midnight. I possibly would have been up for some drinking - oh wait I have finals this week... so yeah I'm up for drinking.. :-P

p.s. hows the job search going?

[shotgunslade]

Very interesting article in this month's Grassroots Motorsports on brake retrofits. Bottom line, if your current braking system can be put into anti-lock mode, then your rotors are big enough and your calipers are adequate. Obviously, whether or not you can do that depends on the tires you are running. If you are running 255 R-compound slicks, you might need more brakes. I'm running 245/40-17 Bridgestone RE01-R's (not quite R compound) and I can get into anti-lock mode (just barely). Changing the brake system (rotors and calipers) on the front only can throw off the braking balance for the car. Significant improvement can only be achieved if the stock front or rear brake system is significantly out of balance with the other end of the car.

Thermal mass (ability to absorb more heat for a given temperature rise) in the braking system (rotors and calipers) is really important for repetitive hard braking (the track). There is an obvious trade-off between braking system thermal mass and unsprung weight (it's all unsprung) related to handling. The SVX front calipers are medium sized, given that they are only 2 pistons.

I also seem to be using similar braking points (closer in many cases) to other faster cars (of course, they're hauling it down from higher speeds). They pass me on the straight and I'm right back with them going into the corners. They then leave me in the dust exiting the corner.

Don't go for drilled and slotted rotors. I have cracked a front drilled rotor all the way through one side wall (track overheating abuse). Get just slotted or dimpled and slotted. I'm running slotted Frozenrotors (cryo-treated). Even so, they show a pattern of hairline surface fractures from over-heating. Still going strong though.

If you are suffering fade, your need to look at your brake fluid and your pads. I'm using ATE Super Blue fluid, and Axxis Ultimate front pads, Axxis Metalmasters rear (Ultimates not available for rear). I have never suffered significant fade at the race track, although I have glazed the pads (melted the surface). This reduces your braking potential slightly and makes a funny noise when you put on the brakes, but wears off after a short time. Also, you might look at rebuilding (or having rebuilt) your calipers. There is a good chance that age has caused their operation to deviate from spec.

[odepaj]

On a side note... The STi Brembos aren't a direct swap as the TR's have WRX hubs and the STi's have larger hubs... SO if you see one with STi calipers then he has either swapped hubs, or he's had an adapter plate made (just like we'd have to do)...

~ Chris

I watched an '07 TR owner bolt on '04 STi Brembo's. Nothing was added, Brembo's bolted right up.

But maybe that was where we get screwed ('04 STi's are 5x100). I'll ask around and see whats up, maybe I can test fit some TR 4-pots.



Dustin

[YourConfused]

Very interesting article in this month's Grassroots Motorsports on brake retrofits. Bottom line, if your current braking system can be put into anti-lock mode, then your rotors are big enough and your calipers are adequate. Obviously, whether or not you can do that depends on the tires you are running. If you are running 255 R-compound slicks, you might need more brakes. I'm running 245/40-17 Bridgestone RE01-R's (not quite R compound) and I can get into anti-lock mode (just barely). Changing the brake system (rotors and calipers) on the front only can throw off the braking balance for the car. Significant improvement can only be achieved if the stock front or rear brake system is significantly out of balance with the other end of the car.

Thermal mass (ability to absorb more heat for a given temperature rise) in the braking system (rotors and calipers) is really important for repetitive hard braking (the track). There is an obvious trade-off between braking system thermal mass and unsprung weight (it's all unsprung) related to handling. The SVX front calipers are medium sized, given that they are only 2 pistons.

I also seem to be using similar braking points (closer in many cases) to other faster cars (of course, they're hauling it down from higher speeds). They pass me on the straight and I'm right back with them going into the corners. They then leave me in the dust exiting the corner.

Don't go for drilled and slotted rotors. I have cracked a front drilled rotor all the way through one side wall (track overheating abuse). Get just slotted or dimpled and slotted. I'm running slotted Frozenrotors (cryo-treated). Even so, they show a pattern of hairline surface fractures from over-heating. Still going strong though.

If you are suffering fade, your need to look at your brake fluid and your pads. I'm using ATE Super Blue fluid, and Axxis Ultimate front pads, Axxis Metalmasters rear (Ultimates not available for rear). I have never suffered significant fade at the race track, although I have glazed the pads (melted the surface). This reduces your braking potential slightly and makes a funny noise when you put on the brakes, but wears off after a short time. Also, you might look at rebuilding (or having rebuilt) your calipers. There is a good chance that age has caused their operation to deviate from spec.

Nice compilation of information that all seems to be true. It's not often that I actually agree completely with things that are posted here or other places on the net. Hopefuly others read this and learn something from it.

[odepaj]

Nice compilation of information that all seems to be true. It's not often that I actually agree completely with things that are posted here or other places on the net. Hopefuly others read this and learn something from it.


I agree with shotgunslade 100%, your brakes are adequate if you can activate the anti-lock.

I'm looking at the Subaru 4-pots not for larger rotors, but for weight savings and even pressure across the rotor. The 4-pots are lighter than our calipers (reducing unsprung weight) and having 4 pistons (2 on each side of the rotor) instead of just 2 on one side, are better balanced and will dissapate heat better along with having a greater "clamping" force to act on the rotor. Im pretty sure they also use larger pads which will help more than using larger rotors.

I'd also be looking to use the 2-pot rears, to keep the system balanced.

Again, I saw '04 Brembo's (all around) get swapped onto an '07 TR with no modifications to the calipers or hub.


Dustin

[YourConfused]

I agree with shotgunslade 100%, your brakes are adequate if you can activate the anti-lock.

I'm looking at the Subaru 4-pots not for larger rotors, but for weight savings and even pressure across the rotor. The 4-pots are lighter than our calipers (reducing unsprung weight) and having 4 pistons (2 on each side of the rotor) instead of just 2 on one side, are better balanced and will dissapate heat better along with having a greater "clamping" force to act on the rotor. Im pretty sure they also use larger pads which will help more than using larger rotors.

I'd also be looking to use the 2-pot rears, to keep the system balanced.

Again, I saw '04 Brembo's (all around) get swapped onto an '07 TR with no modifications to the calipers or hub.


Dustin

I am with you on a brake upgrade as mine can't induce the anti-lock after getting some new shoes. The only realistic option I see is just going for OT's brake package. It has good pads, rotors and lines.

[odepaj]

Well, I figured it out. The '04 STi hubs are infact different than the '05+ STi hubs.

So scratch that idea.

[TomsSVX]

word, words wording...

This has been discussed... several times over.

Yes the Brembo's bolt to our hub. Yes the radius of the caliper changes and a bigger rotor would need to be fitted. NO you cannot just get a larger diameter rotor made because it will not clear the caliper.

Shotgunslade is right 100%. If you can lock up your brakes (anti-lock kicks in) your brakes are sufficient for the street. If you experience brake fade, you need new fluid and a high boiling temp fluid must be used with a full system flush(not just a canister fill). IF and ONLY IF you are still experiencing brake fade, you should look into different pads... Ceramics are good, but their temp ranges are finicky, semi-metalics are very good but they eat rotors and dust like crazy... There are plenty of different kinds of pads, each with its own compromises to made.

Now if you have experimented with all this and your calipers are 100% it may be time to upgrade the brakes to something larger. I personally found my silver to have significant fade when I tracked it but I am also a rookie and used my brakes excessively. For a street car, the right combo of fluid/rotors/pads and good calipers will make all the difference and you will not need any kind of upgrade. For a tracked car, try doing what you can with the brakes you have, trust me, they are not as bad as they are made out to be by people who have no idea. I have driven several SVXi that can stop on a dime, the most notable would be Shotgunslade's car.

Tom

[SVXRide]

word, words wording...

This has been discussed... several times over.

Yes the Brembo's bolt to our hub. Yes the radius of the caliper changes and a bigger rotor would need to be fitted. NO you cannot just get a larger diameter rotor made because it will not clear the caliper.

Shotgunslade is right 100%. If you can lock up your brakes (anti-lock kicks in) your brakes are sufficient for the street. If you experience brake fade, you need new fluid and a high boiling temp fluid must be used with a full system flush(not just a canister fill). IF and ONLY IF you are still experiencing brake fade, you should look into different pads... Ceramics are good, but their temp ranges are finicky, semi-metalics are very good but they eat rotors and dust like crazy... There are plenty of different kinds of pads, each with its own compromises to made.

Now if you have experimented with all this and your calipers are 100% it may be time to upgrade the brakes to something larger. I personally found my silver to have significant fade when I tracked it but I am also a rookie and used my brakes excessively. For a street car, the right combo of fluid/rotors/pads and good calipers will make all the difference and you will not need any kind of upgrade. For a tracked car, try doing what you can with the brakes you have, trust me, they are not as bad as they are made out to be by people who have no idea. I have driven several SVXi that can stop on a dime, the most notable would be Shotgunslade's car.

Tom

I'd add that you can also bias the pads (front/back) if you really want to get tricky. This is a common practice with a lot of track and autoX racers. HAWK and other brands have pads with different "bite" characteristics.
-Bill

[odepaj]

Again.....

I wasn't looking to use Brembo's, I was looking at the WRX 4-pots. I now know they can not be used.

I wasn't looking at them for larger rotors, I was more interested in reducing unsprung weight and having a more balanced and accurate caliper.....

I know the Brembo's need a larger rotor and in one of my posts even said I wasn't looking for the purpose of larger rotors.

I know fluid is one good way to reduce brake fade.....I also know about the different pad materials.

Biasing the pads sounds like it could work nicely, figuring out the best combination will be the only tricky part.



Dustin

[YourConfused]

Haven't you driven marisa's car? she has um, I forgot, akebono ceramic pads, s.s. lines and fancy rotors... What do you think of the way her car brakes? I thought it was a firmer pedal and slightly better braking.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn277/yourconfused/DSC05186-1.jpg

[TomsSVX]

Again.....

I wasn't looking to use Brembo's, I was looking at the WRX 4-pots. I now know they can not be used.

I wasn't looking at them for larger rotors, I was more interested in reducing unsprung weight and having a more balanced and accurate caliper.....

I know the Brembo's need a larger rotor and in one of my posts even said I wasn't looking for the purpose of larger rotors.

I know fluid is one good way to reduce brake fade.....I also know about the different pad materials.

Biasing the pads sounds like it could work nicely, figuring out the best combination will be the only tricky part.



Dustin

Dustin, I was not pointing it out to you...

Tom

[odepaj]

Haven't you driven marisa's car? she has um, I forgot, akebono ceramic pads, s.s. lines and fancy rotors... What do you think of the way her car brakes? I thought it was a firmer pedal and slightly better braking.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn277/yourconfused/DSC05186-1.jpg

Yeah, she has ceramics. I didn't get to drive it hard because we were just listening for a rattle. I did like the feel of the S.S. lines though!



Dustin

[YourConfused]

yeah, they are a nice upgrade. I was late for a job interview today and had to do about four 0-90-0 in a matter of 2-3 minutes and my brakes never once induced anit-lock, but rather just faded a little. The pedal wasn't as mushy as in my truck, but not really great either.
So when you coming up to austin to go for a fun drive?

[odepaj]

Dustin, I was not pointing it out to you...

Tom

I'm lost as to the reason for your post then? I know I jumped the gun and retaliated alittle "harshly" but with how many times I said I wasn't looking to use the Brembo's I just couldn't see why the fitment of the Brembo's kept coming up?

As of now my stock brakes will stay just that (aside from fluid and S.S. lines).

I thought it would be nice to have the WRX 4-pots for weight reduction, better heat transfer, and a more balanced caliper.

4 pistons (2+2 layout) will be more balanced and precise along with having a better "clamping" force to act on the rotor/pads.

Example: Four 10" speakers will have better response and clarity then two 12" speakers because the four 10's (while being smaller in diameter) add up to a larger cone area than the two 12's.


More can be done with a smaller 4-pot caliper then with a 2-pot. It also can save weight while still adding mass (for cooling)



Dustin

[TomsSVX]

Believe me, i would like opposing calipers simply for more precision in my braking, but right now the stockers are fine.

I had said that because Chris had stated that all one would need is a custom rotor to make the Sti Brembos work, which is not the case and that should be crystal clear to anyone reading this.. Otherwise people are going to buy them and be awful pissed off when they find out the hard way.

Tom

P.S. I am not 100% but the clamping force/friction surface of the 4 pots might not even be up to snuff against our slider 2pistons so before looking too far into mounting make sure it would indeed be an upgrade

[odepaj]

Believe me, i would like opposing calipers simply for more precision in my braking, but right now the stockers are fine.

I had said that because Chris had stated that all one would need is a custom rotor to make the Sti Brembos work, which is not the case and that should be crystal clear to anyone reading this.. Otherwise people are going to buy them and be awful pissed off when they find out the hard way.

Tom

P.S. I am not 100% but the clamping force/friction surface of the 4 pots might not even be up to snuff against our slider 2pistons so before looking too far into mounting make sure it would indeed be an upgrade

Ah! Ok, sorry about the confusion then.

Yeah, I've actually already given up on the Subaru 4-pots. Eventually I will look into different 4-pot calipers but thats a long ways down the road still. The pads for the 4-pots did look bigger than ours though, I would think they have greater force. Some of the guys with older WRX's ('02-'03 with the 2-pots in front) seem to like the 4-pots as an upgrade. The '02-'03 calipers are similar to ours (2-pot sliders) but look alittle smaller.




Dustin

[odepaj]

yeah, they are a nice upgrade. I was late for a job interview today and had to do about four 0-90-0 in a matter of 2-3 minutes and my brakes never once induced anit-lock, but rather just faded a little. The pedal wasn't as mushy as in my truck, but not really great either.
So when you coming up to austin to go for a fun drive?

Pretty soon hopfully! I need some koni's and GC's (or Mychailo's springs) first though!

I found an awesome highway just west of College Station that we could turn into a once-in-a-blue moon type drive.

Texas Highway 166, its 15.57 miles long and the speed limit is 65mph with most of the turns needing to be taken at 30-35mph to be civilized. It's mixed with some nice long straights aswell (one of them is nearly 2 and a half miles long!) Driving aggressively it took me 15-20mins to complete.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7834/texashighway166cc4.png

[YourConfused]

Pretty soon hopfully! I need some koni's and GC's (or Mychailo's springs) first though!

I found an awesome highway just west of College Station that we could turn into a once-on-a-blue moon type drive.

Texas Highway 166, its 15.57 miles long and the speed limit is 65mph (with most of the turns needing to be taken at 30-35mph to be civilized.

http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/7834/texashighway166cc4.png

is it the yellow or red route?

[odepaj]

is it the yellow or red route?

The red and white.

[shotgunslade]

Another issue to be wary of if you start changing calipers is changing the ratio of piston volume to master cylinder capacity. You could wind up changing the pedal travel distance from slight to full braking. This brake thing is really complicated. I heartily suggest anyone thinking of changing rotor size, or calipers read the article in this month's Grassroots Motorsport concerning brakes. It really covers the issue of brake improvements.

This is not an advertisement, but your $40 annual dues payment to NASA gives you a subscription to GRM, which is more than worth the entire dues amount.

[Boxersix]

Very interesting article in this month's Grassroots Motorsports on brake retrofits. Bottom line, if your current braking system can be put into anti-lock mode, then your rotors are big enough and your calipers are adequate. Obviously, whether or not you can do that depends on the tires you are running. If you are running 255 R-compound slicks, you might need more brakes. I'm running 245/40-17 Bridgestone RE01-R's (not quite R compound) and I can get into anti-lock mode (just barely). Changing the brake system (rotors and calipers) on the front only can throw off the braking balance for the car. Significant improvement can only be achieved if the stock front or rear brake system is significantly out of balance with the other end of the car.

Thermal mass (ability to absorb more heat for a given temperature rise) in the braking system (rotors and calipers) is really important for repetitive hard braking (the track). There is an obvious trade-off between braking system thermal mass and unsprung weight (it's all unsprung) related to handling. The SVX front calipers are medium sized, given that they are only 2 pistons.

I also seem to be using similar braking points (closer in many cases) to other faster cars (of course, they're hauling it down from higher speeds). They pass me on the straight and I'm right back with them going into the corners. They then leave me in the dust exiting the corner.

Don't go for drilled and slotted rotors. I have cracked a front drilled rotor all the way through one side wall (track overheating abuse). Get just slotted or dimpled and slotted. I'm running slotted Frozenrotors (cryo-treated). Even so, they show a pattern of hairline surface fractures from over-heating. Still going strong though.

If you are suffering fade, your need to look at your brake fluid and your pads. I'm using ATE Super Blue fluid, and Axxis Ultimate front pads, Axxis Metalmasters rear (Ultimates not available for rear). I have never suffered significant fade at the race track, although I have glazed the pads (melted the surface). This reduces your braking potential slightly and makes a funny noise when you put on the brakes, but wears off after a short time. Also, you might look at rebuilding (or having rebuilt) your calipers. There is a good chance that age has caused their operation to deviate from spec.



I'll jump in here and back this up about 98% here, with one crutch on the anti-lock theory being that initial bite on some setup may be enough to initiate the ABS sequence at low velocities but nowhere near enough once pad temperature comes up and ~75% of the rotors thermal capacity is met. My 965 had enough initial bite to initial antilock on stock rotors with PFB's in the calipers but ran out of thermal capacity up top. Upgraded to GT3 brakes with ceramic pistons and PFB's all around now to remedy that issue.

Aside from that, one of the most solid informative posts on braking I've read in awhile.

On a side note...........just in my opinion with dealing with my PCA/BMWCCA/Koni-GA race customers ditch that ATE super blue fluid. It's very hydroscopic and absorbs water vapor quite easily. It was common nature here to flush the system after every big race because that fluid would pull moisture and start to boil easily. Castrol SRF is what I run now, and although expensive I usually get a full season on one flush before it becomes water heavy and needs to go. I used to flush the ATE so much over the season I would easily exceed the cost of the SRF fluid. May not be the case in your situation or setup but just and FYI for you incase you start running into a soft pedal constantly.

[Nevin]

I cannot imagine why someone would need different calipers or larger rotors than the factory setup. Unless you are just doing hardcore, highspeed racing, the stock calipers have plenty of bite, and the rotors are large enough to dissapate a good amount of heat.

I have SS lines, ceramic pads, and drilled/slotted rotors and this thing just stops NOW! I'm very impressed by it's stopping power considering the cars heft.

[Tim]

Yea I had to slam on the brakes this weekend for a very hard stop. My friend's response was "Wow... those are some damn good brakes." It also helps to have some fresh fluid, SS lines, Axxis pads and slotted rotors... and the Koni/GC to minimize the brake dive :D

[Nevin]

Yeah, mine does dive quite a bit. My next project is to freshen up the suspension. Well...after I get the 4.11 tranny in.

Can we run DOT4 in our systems? I'm sure that wouldn't hurt either (if it's compatible) but either way, I really should go through and flush my brakes and get some new fluid in there. Getting the old crap out of the lines usually does wonders too.

[svxstarship]

Great feel and fade resistance.

[odepaj]

How much did the Movit kit cost and is it still available?

[svxstarship]

Yes it's still available from Germany. 2500.00 approx, and a long wait to get it.
Of course I might be selling my 96 soon, so just buy the car a get the brakes to:)
Rotors are 308mm diameter and 32mm thickness. There is more info on their website.

[lechnoid]

Another little add-on to a firmer setup that gets used (harshly) quite a bit is higher-temp fluid. While it adds no real benefit from standard DOT 3,4,5....the life will be longer. This only works if you're getting your brake temps up regularly or even irregularly but with large spikes. I used ATE Super Blue in my VR-4 after I had upgraded the rest of the brakes. I was tracking the car frequently and was replacing/flushing almost as frequently. After changing fluids, I found my braking life held up much better to high temps.

I was also on the pit crew for Steve Gingris in 2004 at the Trespassers Wil event (SCCA Club Rally Nationals). He also used Super Blue.

[SilverSpear]

Yes it's still available from Germany. 2500.00 approx, and a long wait to get it.
Of course I might be selling my 96 soon, so just buy the car a get the brakes to:)
Rotors are 308mm diameter and 32mm thickness. There is more info on their website.

On brake change, which pads do you use? Shall you always order them from Germany?

[svxstarship]

I am pretty sure the caliper is the same as a Porsche caliper ( maybe a boxter) it looks similar. I wouldn't be suprised if some other pad application would fit. If not, I would get them from Germany. But I hardly drive the car so I'm not to worried.

[SilverSpear]

I am pretty sure the caliper is the same as a Porsche caliper ( maybe a boxter) it looks similar. I wouldn't be suprised if some other pad application would fit. If not, I would get them from Germany. But I hardly drive the car so I'm not to worried.

Did you try to ask them?

[SilverSpear]

Wow, I did email Movit concerning their kits, here was their reply:

""dear danny,

we can offer you following brake kits for your car:

front:

304x32mm with 4-piston caliper @ € 1800,00 net.
322x32mm with 4-piston caliper @ € 2100,00 net.
342x34mm with 4-piston caliper @ € 2650,00 net.

342x34mm with 6-piston "BILLET" calipers €3400,00 net.

if you need any further information please let me know.

mit freundlichen grüßen,
with kind regards,
cordialement,

hussien chahrour

MOV´IT GmbH
rennwiese 4
77855 achern
h.chahrour@movit.de
www.movit.de

HRB 220791
amtsgericht mannheim

fon: +49 7841 681230
fax: +49 7841 681231

geschäftsführer: guido frensemeyer

PS: Zur schnellstmöglichen Bearbeitung der Anfrage senden Sie bitte immer den vorangegangenen Schriftverkehr mit.
Please quote all previous messages when sending replies to help us to provide better and faster service.""


OUCH!!! :eek: