carbon fiber driveshaft

[tubbstcg]

well I was looking at drive shaft options I like the idea of a carbon fiber drive shaft but I know little about the subject would it be practical for street use?

[Crazy_pilot]

I would think prohibitively expensive and it's won't get you any noticable gains. I don't think you'll be able to find one that works, so it'll have to be custom made.

[tubbstcg]

well my goal is to get as much of the svxs power to the wheels I can. I was mainly concerned with how the carbon fiber drive shaft would hold up and if it would be a sound investment. I can get one made for around 1k.

[sicksubie]

dumb, dumb, dumb.... Seriously. For $1k I could get an all aluminum one made and get a stage 2 v7...

[tubbstcg]

Well how light are the aluminum drive shafts because the carbon fiber ones are 6 pounds?

[Crazy_pilot]

6lbs for what car? Because I can guarantee there isn't one made for the SVX.

[tubbstcg]

Yes I know that is why it would have to be custom which runs just around 1k.

[shotking]

dumb, dumb, dumb.... Seriously. For $1k I could get an all aluminum one made and get a stage 2 v7...

What sicksubie is suggesting is you can get better bang for your buck elseware.

[tubbstcg]

I understand but what im trying to do is get a more efficient drive line transmission, drive shaft, axels, wheels, etc. the svx doesn't have bad power output it just is losing the power on the way to the wheels. I mean the aluminum drive shaft is not a bad idea but how much heavier would it be?

[Myxalplyx]

Was looking for a company that can make a custom carbon fiber driveshaft, just for the hell of it. I did find an interesting article.

http://www.stangpro.com/html/articles/driveshaft.htm


Also, does someone have a driveshaft hanging around that they can weigh? I mean, just for data purposes. Not that I am thinking of upgrading the driveshaft or anything. :p

[tubbstcg]

Nice website thanks a lot I thought there would be a noticeable gain and the carbon fiber drive shafts i was looking at are a little over 6 lbs I might even see better gains. The only thing I'm really concerned about is durability.

[cdigerlando]

I seem to remember a company in Tampa that did them (CF) custom, pretty easy to do actually, for about the same cost as a stock replacement. They also have removable (replaceble) U joints, unlike our pressed on joints. I was considering it, but only when replacement of the stock unit was necessary.

[Myxalplyx]

Well, no need to continue to talk about it. All someone has to do is post up a company that makes them, someone contact them, someone get one made up (if they want to and/or find it beneficial) and report back their findings. :)

As for durability, just keep your stock one. If it works out, great. If not, put your stockers back on.

[tubbstcg]

I was thinking about upgrading when i did the 5spd swap.

[Sir. Nate]

I had a carbon fiber drive shaft on my '92 Suburban. It was sweeeet, only weighed 10 pounds, a steel shaft weighs 30+.

[NikFu S.]

Stock SVX shaft weighs 35lbs.
I'm getting an aluminum one made soon as I get back to completing my 5 spd swap.
$200. I'll let ya know what's what.

[Myxalplyx]

Stock SVX shaft weighs 35lbs.
I'm getting an aluminum one made soon as I get back to completing my 5 spd swap.
$200. I'll let ya know what's what.



Questions, Questions!!! :p

Thanks for the stock SVX driveshaft info. Who are you purchasing the $200 driveshaft from? How much does the aluminum driveshaft weigh?




dumb, dumb, dumb.... Seriously. For $1k I could get an all aluminum one made and get a stage 2 v7...

Made from whom? How much does it weigh?

[tubbstcg]

We seem to be getting a little further.

[odepaj]

Weight loss is fine and dandy, but its more beneficial when it also lowers the cars center of gravity (IE. removing weight towards the top of the vehicle).

CF driveshaft is a cool idea, but theres better gains to be had elsewhere.


Dustin

[LetItSnow]

When it comes to spinning mass, so many people seem so booked on WEIGHT when what really matters is MASS and MOMENT OF INERTIA.

The driveshaft has a very small moment of inertia, so you'd have to rip a hell of a lot of mass out of it to know the difference.

Further, by material, the thing has no frictional losses, nor energy transfer losses (like a diff). Unless you are a long way into the car's performance already, you have money that you have no idea what to do with, or you put a mirror under your car at car shows, it's definitely not a way to go.

[tubbstcg]

Well im doing to improve the power to the ground. Not to lose weight (that is a very small bonus) i can take out the rear seats and lose more. Plus the fact it is a rotational item that is a big part to getting the power to the road rather than just losing passenger room.

[odepaj]

Well im doing to improve the power to the ground. Not to lose weight (that is a very small bonus) i can take out the rear seats and lose more. Plus the fact it is a rotational item that is a big part to getting the power to the road rather than just losing passenger room.

The point is though, the driveshaft has very little rotational mass since its a small diameter, you wont notice much of an improvement. But throw some money at it, it's not my money :)




Dustin

[tubbstcg]

hmm where would the most benefits be seen in the drive line to improve. I dont know much about what i am talking about it is probably evident Im just going by what people tell me. Im just hoping those people are right:). You seem to know what your talking about i withdrew that before statement.

[odepaj]

hmm where would the most benefits be seen in the drive line to improve. I dont know much about what i am talking about it is probably evident Im just going by what people tell me. Im just hoping those people are right:). You seem to know what your talking about i withdrew that before statement.

About the best thing you can do is a 4.44 tranny swap. That or replace alot of the subframe/suspension bushings and that sort of stuff. Most of the power is lost in the tranny, but that is just a part of having AWD......

[tubbstcg]

Well I was planning on a 5spd swap maybe a 6spd if I can get my hands on one.

[sicksubie]

a CF driveaft will NOT get you more power to the ground at all. It will not magically reduce the amount of parasitic loss through your driveline. Your car will simply have the ability to rev slightly quicker. Personally look at an aluminum if you have $$ burning a hole in your pocket. I do not see a TON of weight coming off a 2 piece shaft that the svx has stock.

[tubbstcg]

Ok now odepaj made some good points and didn't have to be a jerk about it. I thought a forum was a place for someone to come and learn from the community not get hassled by some guy pissed off because some one peed in his cheerios this morning.

[svxfiles]

I know a local drag racer who replaced his stock aluminum driveshaft in his Pontiac Firebird.
It was a 6 speed with about 650 crank horse power, and an absolute HOOT to drive!
He replaced the driveshaft with a carbon fibre one ONLY for the reliability.
It did not change his ET.
With light weight wheels and tires,for example you reduce your weight, rotating weight, helping handeling, braking and acceleration.:)
$1000.00 would buy you light weight wheels, AND lightweight seats,for example.

[It's Just Eric]

As far as cleaning up the driveline, gettign more of the motors power down..your better off doing a transmission (manual or a 4.44 auto work well. The autos can get rebuilt valve bodies, ect, for faster shifts) and stiffening up the motor, tansmission, and rear diff mounts

edit: ditto on the wheels and tires. Taking weight off there makes a HUGE diffrence

[tubbstcg]

When my next paycheck comes in im hoping to get some new wheels tires and brakes

[svxfiles]

When my next paycheck comes in im hoping to get some new wheels tires and brakes

I know where you can get four plated, dimpled, slotted rotors, pads, and stainless steel lines for $375.00.;):)

[tubbstcg]

Definitely I know where to go on that.:rolleyes:

[NikFu S.]

Questions, Questions!!! :p
Thanks for the stock SVX driveshaft info. Who are you purchasing the $200 driveshaft from? How much does the aluminum driveshaft weigh?

I'm getting it custom made from a place in town. I don't know how much it will weigh. Maybe 15-20lbs? I've been planning it for about 3 years but I've never had a reason until now because I can't use my stock shaft anymore.
This is useful to me as part of a cumulative weight reduction of the car.
No A/C, no trunk junk, fb hood coming later, 5mt w/light flywheel, light wheels, no pass. seat, whatever else I end up doing.

[Trevor]

a CF driveaft will NOT get you more power to the ground at all. It will not magically reduce the amount of parasitic loss through your driveline. Your car will simply have the ability to rev slightly quicker. Personally look at an aluminum if you have $$ burning a hole in your pocket. I do not see a TON of weight coming off a 2 piece shaft that the svx has stock.

The operative word here is SLIGHTLY. In fact so slight, as to be not practically possible to measure. The engineering has been laid down correctly earlier in the thread.:D

[tubbstcg]

about what length of a drive shaft will i need after doing the 5spd swap?

[NikFu S.]

About 2 inches longer than stock, but you'll want to measure for accuracy.

[tubbstcg]

k thx alot

[cdigerlando]

I was thinking about upgrading when i did the 5spd swap.

Be carful doing this with a manual trans. I know that on my WRX you can only lighten the pully or the flywheel, not both. You get a lot of backfiring. It seems like someone should be able to tune this out, but I don't think anyone has. There is discussion on Nasioc. Perhaps you can post there and see if anyone has discussed this before.

[LetItSnow]

edit: ditto on the wheels and tires. Taking weight off there makes a HUGE diffrence
This could easily begin to venture off-topic, but it should be noted that ANY rotating piece of a car can, in changing mass, have a positive AND/OR negative effect. If a wheel/tire combination is lighter, then it will benefit as unsprung weight (good for the suspension) but if the wheel/tire has a higher moment of inertia, then it could very likely slow the acceleration of the vehicle, as it consumes more energy to spin it up to speed.

I dont know much about what i am talking about...
Before you begin throwing money at your concern, you should gather an idea of what might be the best solution(s) to the problem. In the long run, a CF driveshaft would be less of a kinetic energy pig than a conventional shaft, but it's a long way out on things that will be beneficial to your car's performance, as it's tremendously unlikely that you'll notice its presence (beyond your wallet).

[Myxalplyx]

Guys/Gals,

This is what I was driving at earlier. Let's get some pricing info and weight info and let the 'buyer' decide if it is worth it or not. Lots of info here but no data.

As a matter of fact, I would not mind being a guinea pig in this situation. All I want to know is WHO to purchase the driveshaft from, what it weighs and how much it will cost to get done. I will call the shop/manufacturer/person and can go from there. Never was one to argue if it will or will not work. It is lighter. If it is 50% or more lighter than the 35lb stock unit, I will whole heartedly consider it myself. If it is a waste of money. so be it.

Personally, I am happy about the lighter wheels and pulley of the car. This is another small piece to the whole puzzle to wring out as much as possible out of the piggish SVX. Thanks for the NikFu S.

Could you please provide the name of the shop that is the 'place in town' and possibly a number. We can take this offline if you like.

We gotta make some progress with these ideas somehow rather than stifling our imaginations with unproven facts. :p Let's move on them and test. You never know until you try.

The link to the article I provided earlier in the thread showed a noticable/measurable difference. It was not much but a difference. The difference between the guys stock driveshaft and a carbon fiber unit was 11lbs. Nikfu is talking at least that much with an aluminum one, let alone a carbon fiber one. Again, people can argue all day over these things. Someone should test this out though. Heres another article to check out-->http://www.acpt.com/article1.html Another driveshaft weight reduction of about 10lbs.

[lhopp77]

Again you would probably take off a lot more weight on the car by removing all radio/stereo related equipment. :rolleyes: Of course weight loss is really probably not that important to you. :)

Lee

[svxfiles]

Again you would probably take off a lot more weight on the car by removing all radio/stereo related equipment. :rolleyes: Of course weight loss is really probably not that important to you. :)

Lee

Way ahead of you Lee!:o
There hasn't been any GOOD music since Jim Morrison faked his death, anyway!:mad:
3305#s with a 1/4 tank.:D
I would rather go with a ONE PIECE alluminum driveshaft after I make more solid the engine and rear diff mount.
The rear is 1/2 way there with the 15 minute mod X three!;)
Tom

[Myxalplyx]

Again you would probably take off a lot more weight on the car by removing all radio/stereo related equipment. :rolleyes: Of course weight loss is really probably not that important to you. :)

Lee

Notice the items I mentioned (Pulley, wheels, driveshaft) is weight loss with rotating mass. No, I am not particularly interested in the typical weight loss. I have no plans on removing anything before making a 1/4 mile run. Spare tires, radios, tools, back seats, etc will all remain inside the vehicle like it normally does. :) Because if it is one of the better N/A runs, I want to rub it in like a whole can of Vicks vapor rub, so people can smell my victory after they wake up. **Evil Laugh**

[LetItSnow]

This sounds like another trampoline shot to the moon, to me. There's no sound math behind it.

Regarding the pulley, consider how the mass is magnified after the transaxle gearing, and how the pulley's reduced mass winds up lost and negligible in all of that.

Regarding the CF driveshaft... I'm not sure about the return which may be as steep as $300/hp.

Kevin, your first link shows the car to actually be slower, two out of three, in the 1/8 mile. It also makes some pretty questionable claims. The second one incorrectly uses the formula for MOI (it doesn't function at the OD!) I'm interested in seeing some credible claims from sources who use correct scientific method and proper physics, if they're going to use any.;)

[svxfiles]

No, I am not particularly interested in the typical weight loss.
Spare tires,**Evil Laugh**

Me neither!:o
Spare tire is in the drivers seat!:o
Thanks, Kevin, now I feel bad about myself.:(

[Myxalplyx]

Kevin, your first link shows the car to actually be slower, two out of three, in the 1/8 mile. It also makes some pretty questionable claims. The second one incorrectly uses the formula for MOI (it doesn't function at the OD!) I'm interested in seeing some credible claims from sources who use correct scientific method and proper physics, if they're going to use any.;)

Scientific methods? :lol: Who's going to give that info? Credible claims are only claims that are accepted by someone. It does not mean it will be credible to someone else. Everything is up to debate and any claim can be questioned. Sorry I couldn't find a correct scientific method and proper physics from a source. That is asking for a lot though. Good luck peeps! ;)

BTW: I just came back from the Dyno shop, testing. Nevermind why I was there....not enough scientific data. :lol: There was Turbo magazine that I was reading up on and low and behold...a modified Subaru was in there. Nothing new here but the owner of the Subaru had a custom driveshaft made for him since his stock unit was obliterated. The company's name was 'Front Range Driveline'.

I just got off the phone with 'Front Range Driveline'. Jim there stated that in order for a custom driveshaft to be made, he needs one measurment. He needs the measure of the stock driveshaft from end to end (Spline end of tranny to where the face bolts up or something other). I am no tranny expert. Jim does not make carbon fiber driveshafts. The Front Range Driveline shop makes aluminum ones though. The cost of the modification is $450. Jim stated that I can expect the aluminum unit to be 8-10lbs. This is a possible 25-27lbs savings in the drivetrain.....guesstimated.

So I ask, can anyone please provide Jim of Front Range Driveline with the proper measurement(s) of an SVX driveshaft? The companies contact and location is below. If someone that is knowledgable about the SVX driveline can please call them and let us know we need to let Jim know, so we can get this show on the road. I already took the first step. Thanks for any help on this.

BTW: TomsSVX....if you are reading this...perhaps when the XT6 is done and this becomes possible, I can do another car swap and get a driveshaft put in. Imagine that! :rolleyes:

Front Range Drive Line Inc
4000 S Federal Blvd Unit B
Englewood, CO 80110
(303) 783-9954

[TomsSVX]

a one piece driveshaft was made for a 5mt not that long ago. The angles are too intense for a one piece. It will create vibrations that will not only be an annoyance but it could potentially destroy your transmission ie: blow apart the rear portion of the trans... So, I would recommend against ANY 1 piece Drive shaft. Thats why i always use customized SVX shafts with new universals

Tomn

[LetItSnow]

Kevin: You don't need to hurl that at me. I'm not looking for strife... I'm only offering why those two sources are questionable. You may wish to choose your links more carefully if your signature will carry, "The weight behind the statement made, directly depends on the evidence which has been presented." I'll leave it at that.

[Myxalplyx]

Kevin: You don't need to hurl that at me. I'm not looking for strife... I'm only offering why those two sources are questionable. You may wish to choose your links more carefully if your signature will carry, "The weight behind the statement made, directly depends on the evidence which has been presented." I'll leave it at that.

This is all in good natured fun. That is why I put the smiley faces in. I don't need to choose links more carefully. It is just info. Some will accept it, others will not. Everything is up to intepretation. I stop trying to prove stuff years ago and do modifications that I feel are worthwhile. Then report my findings. It's the curiousity and wanting to know that keeps me going. That's all!

No argument from me. I understand that the links that I provided are not suitable for you (and I am sure others as well). It suited me just fine. We agree to disagree. You are still cool with me though. :D Let's try to have some fun with this shall we.

[LetItSnow]

Reading tone in text is always a crapshoot, and it's a drag when confusion ensues. We're good.:cool:

...even if you don't agree with me. Hehehe!

[svxfiles]

a one piece driveshaft was made for a 5mt not that long ago. The angles are too intense for a one piece. It will create vibrations that will not only be an annoyance but it could potentially destroy your transmission ie: blow apart the rear portion of the trans... So, I would recommend against ANY 1 piece Drive shaft. Thats why i always use customized SVX shafts with new universals

Tomn
YT, You ignorant slut!:eek: j/k
I would only install a one piece driveshaft IF there were correct/corrected angles created to make it work first.:)
OT

[NikFu S.]

Could you please provide the name of the shop that is the 'place in town' and possibly a number. We can take this offline if you like.
Young's Gear
1-800-561-2106

It's been about 2 years since I went there, but they did quote me at $200 for an aluminum drive shaft.

[svxfiles]

Reading tone!!,:mad:
in text!!!,:mad::mad:
is always a crapshoot!!!!,:mad:
and it's a drag :(
when confusion:confused: ensues.
We're good???::o:confused:
...even if you don't agree with me. :eek: Hehehe!

Just stirrin the pot! Heh, heh, heh.:banana:

[LetItSnow]

:b&:

Wait, wait... we're messing up a perfectly good tech thread.

[svxfiles]

:b&:

Wait, wait... we're messing up a perfectly good tech thread.

sorry.:(




I'll go to my room, now.

[Trevor]

The scientific fact to be considered here is the relative distance of the reciprocating weight from the central point of rotation. In respect of a drive shaft, it is bugger all; pulley very little; flywheel significant.

There can be argument only in respect of cost/affect, strength/affect.

Driving a modified sports car, I once sat very close alongside a whipping and vibrating drive shaft, having to resist temptation and hold back on speed during a race. It was not a good feeling.;) Tom is dead right in respect of his reasons why a one piece shaft is a bad, bad.:D

[Myxalplyx]

well I was looking at drive shaft options I like the idea of a carbon fiber drive shaft but I know little about the subject would it be practical for street use?


So, with all the information you have thus far, will you be going forth and trying out a custom driveshaft? Or will you not do it?

[tubbstcg]

I'm going forth into the night...if i can get the money together I think there will be a lot of gains with just improving the drive line and no one has seemed to go all out with it so i am going to try to be the first.

[tubbstcg]

I'm hoping to have the wheels 5spd and drive shaft by around early summer late spring is where I'm shooting for

[Myxalplyx]

I'm hoping to have the wheels 5spd and drive shaft by around early summer late spring is where I'm shooting for

Looking forward to reading about your results. Thanks!

[NikFu S.]

a one piece driveshaft was made for a 5mt not that long ago. The angles are too intense for a one piece. It will create vibrations that will not only be an annoyance but it could potentially destroy your transmission ie: blow apart the rear portion of the trans... So, I would recommend against ANY 1 piece Drive shaft. Thats why i always use customized SVX shafts with new universals

Tomn

****.

What is the source of the vibration? Lack of a dampener? No center bearing? Small diameter?

[svxpert]

<<What is the source of the vibration? Lack of a dampener? No center bearing? Small diameter? >>


being one piece, the universal will be at a real angle to fit. that means alot of stress on it. it will wear uneven and eventually fail.

[NikFu S.]

Good to know. As of today I'm no longer going this route. The shop is just not up to it. They refuse to make a 2 piece.

[Nomad]

Is the angle too extrem only for manual SVX's or for automatic too ?

[NikFu S.]

It's the same, just a slight difference in length.

[SpoonChucker]

I would have posted this earlier, but I don’t get on this site that often. I had an aluminum drive shaft made about three years ago. It has a slightly larger diameter (compared to stock) for strength reasons. This also meant that the heat shield had to be modified so that it wouldn’t rub (in addition to being a “one-piece”). For all of the reasons mentioned in this thread I put the stock driveshaft back on about two week after installing it. Vibrations were noticeable around 60-80 mph. It is lighter but I never weighed it. I never noticed much of a change in acceleration if any at all.

[TomsSVX]

in order for the D/S to work it would need significantly larger U-joint which means a fully custom shaft and joints... also means BIG money. I have toyed with the idea of having my D/S shop make me one for my silver... but the stocker has been fine so when I need a beefier one I will have it made

Tom