Chuck's Engine Build

[cdigerlando]

Well, I finally got all of my parts back from the machine shop. My cylinder clearance are on the big side, due to some cylinder wall corrosion that I had. I'm running about 4 thousands, which should be fine.

I tried to be slick like Mike and cage the bearings, but my readings were not very repeatable, even with less precision than his instruments, so I decided to just check everything with plastigage. My rod bearings all hit dead nuts on 1.5 thousands clearance. This is with swain coated ACL tri metal race bearings. My main bearings varied from 2 - 1.5 thousands. My runout on the last bearing was less than 1 thousanth, so with that I'm going to go ahead and assemble this thing. I will probably start nights on Monday. I should definitelly have the long block assembled by the end of next weekend. I need to do a bit more clean up of the water jackets, and port the oil pump entry hole to improve oil flow, since there are no aftermarket pumps greater than our stock 12 mm pump for subaru motors. I'm also going to order a new oil pan since the cleaning process did a job on the interior paint, and I'd rather not take a chance on problems associated with paint flakes in my oil.

I'll take pictures along the way and post them. I'm sure it will not be as precise as mikes motor, but there are a few differences. I semi-closed the deck for one, but I have not had any porting or port matching of the heads done. I also have not done any coatings, other than my bearings. I'm running a bit more clearance on my main bearings, but using a coated ACL tri metal race bearing instead of Mike's aluminum bearings. I think my bearings will be able to handle a lot of power, but may not have the longevity of the Mike's bearings. I'm also installing cometic head gaskets instead of OEM. Hopefully they will hold up well. I'm thinking of using copper spray to help with sealing, as I've seen a few nasioc builders doing this.

If anyone is interested in using the machine shop I used, let me know. He is pretty busy, but said that he would be interested in doing another motor some time in the future.

[Boxersix]

I'm thinking of using copper spray to help with sealing, as I've seen a few nasioc builders doing this.



Don't use the copper spray......instead go buy a can of Mopar(dodge chrysler) head gasket sealant. It is specially formulated for MLS steel gaskets and works well with all after market. Sprays on as a tacky clear yellow fluid but thins out very quickly and displaces with torque. More importantly it goes on even.

The problem with the copper spray is it's uneven layer and inability to thin out. If you let it stand too long you'll end up with uneven layers of sealant which over time can blow out and leak. Best not to use it.

I've built hundreds of motors in my life and the Mopar stuff is excellent.

[cdigerlando]

Don't use the copper spray......instead go buy a can of Mopar(dodge chrysler) head gasket sealant. It is specially formulated for MLS steel gaskets and works well with all after market. Sprays on as a tacky clear yellow fluid but thins out very quickly and displaces with torque. More importantly it goes on even.

The problem with the copper spray is it's uneven layer and inability to thin out. If you let it stand too long you'll end up with uneven layers of sealant which over time can blow out and leak. Best not to use it.

I've built hundreds of motors in my life and the Mopar stuff is excellent.

Thanks I'll give that a try. Where do you get it?

[longassname]

Hey Chuck,

I know you have some of the 1st gen ARP head studs. The short studs in that "kit," the ones that go under the cam gears, need to be torqued in otherwise they will rub on the cam gears. I think I put all my studs in at 13 ft lbs. Anyway, pay attention and make sure you have the studs under the cam gears in as far as they will go. I changed the specs with ARP after my build so in the future the short studs will be 6.70 instead of 6.75".

When I did the write up on my build I forgot to mention the process of breaking in the studs. With the gasket set up you are talking about you will want to do this with your old gaskets before you install your heads for real with your new gaskets. With your old head gaskets go through the whole torque sequence and then fully loosen the nuts up and do it again. Do that 5 times. That breaks the studs in so that from then on the clamping force associated with a given torque will be reliable and repeatable.

I suggest you not use maximum torque for the fastners. You'll have to check my post in my engine build thread but I think I settled on 73 ft lbs of torque. Because of the differences in thermal expansion between the aluminum block/heads and the arp2000 studs it's best to leave yourself as generous room for stretch before reaching yield as possible while still getting the clamping force you want. If you troque them all the way up to close to yield and then thermal expansion stretches them past yield then they stay stretched, your head gasket goes bad, and you start running around trying new gaskets and closing decks etc not realizing the studs are just toasted.

[longassname]

Chuck,

How much less than .001 run out do you have? You only have run out on 7 and not 6? What # journals are you spinning the crank on when checking for run out?

For your build you should really get zero observable run out. Factory specs will let you run something crazy like 14 tens run out but that kind of stuff has no place in a performance build. You want to be able to run high loads at high rpms with complete confidence.

[longassname]

Chuck,

Get your piston skirts coated to close up those sidewall clearances. You should be able to get 2 tens or 4 tens thick coating. With those measurements get the 4 tens coating. With 4 thou sidewall clearance you will get skirt slap when the engine is cold. The 4 tens coating will narrow that down to .0032 sidewall clearance which will run much more smoothly and quietly.

[cdigerlando]

Chuck,

How much less than .001 run out do you have? You only have run out on 7 and not 6? What # journals are you spinning the crank on when checking for run out?

For your build you should really get zero observable run out. Factory specs will let you run something crazy like 14 tens run out but that kind of stuff has no place in a performance build. You want to be able to run high loads at high rpms with complete confidence.

I only checked 7 and 1, running bearings on 1 and 5. My equipment I had access to would not fit between the crank lobes. Ran about 7.5 tens on the runout. 0 of course on 1. I was pretty happy to just be able to check 7, but it would have been nice to be able to check journal 3.

[cdigerlando]

Chuck,

Get your piston skirts coated to close up those sidewall clearances. You should be able to get 2 tens or 4 tens thick coating. With those measurements get the 4 tens coating. With 4 thou sidewall clearance you will get skirt slap when the engine is cold. The 4 tens coating will narrow that down to .0032 sidewall clearance which will run much more smoothly and quietly.

I spoke with CP already about coatings, but they do not recommend them even though it is done all the time:rolleyes: Hopefully I don't get much slap. I know that can be an issue with these forged pistons and wider clearances. CP recommends .0035 correct?

[cdigerlando]

Hey Chuck,

I know you have some of the 1st gen ARP head studs. The short studs in that "kit," the ones that go under the cam gears, need to be torqued in otherwise they will rub on the cam gears. I think I put all my studs in at 13 ft lbs. Anyway, pay attention and make sure you have the studs under the cam gears in as far as they will go. I changed the specs with ARP after my build so in the future the short studs will be 6.70 instead of 6.75".

When I did the write up on my build I forgot to mention the process of breaking in the studs. With the gasket set up you are talking about you will want to do this with your old gaskets before you install your heads for real with your new gaskets. With your old head gaskets go through the whole torque sequence and then fully loosen the nuts up and do it again. Do that 5 times. That breaks the studs in so that from then on the clamping force associated with a given torque will be reliable and repeatable.

I suggest you not use maximum torque for the fastners. You'll have to check my post in my engine build thread but I think I settled on 73 ft lbs of torque. Because of the differences in thermal expansion between the aluminum block/heads and the arp2000 studs it's best to leave yourself as generous room for stretch before reaching yield as possible while still getting the clamping force you want. If you troque them all the way up to close to yield and then thermal expansion stretches them past yield then they stay stretched, your head gasket goes bad, and you start running around trying new gaskets and closing decks etc not realizing the studs are just toasted.

I have the 6.75" in studs. I'll give the break in a try with my old gaskets. Thanks for the advice. I think that ARP recommends approx 73 ft lbs on these studs.

[longassname]

Sounds like you need to get yourself a good dial guage base set. You definitely need to put in the time to find out where that bend is and get it corrected. Don't use the way it is now..you will regret it.


I only checked 7 and 1, running bearings on 1 and 5. My equipment I had access to would not fit between the crank lobes. Ran about 7.5 tens on the runout. 0 of course on 1. I was pretty happy to just be able to check 7, but it would have been nice to be able to check journal 3.

[longassname]

The guys who build impreza engines get audible skirt slap on a cold engine with 4 thou sidewall clearance so I'm confident you will as well. It's up to you but I'd get the skirt coating.



I spoke with CP already about coatings, but they do not recommend them even though it is done all the time:rolleyes: Hopefully I don't get much slap. I know that can be an issue with these forged pistons and wider clearances. CP recommends .0035 correct?

[SVXRide]

chuck,
plenty of shops out there that will coat the skirts. I've used ThermalTech in Virginia for my intake and exhaust pieces.
-Bill

[longassname]

http://business.listings.ebay.com/Inspection-Measurement_Magnetic-Holders_W0QQdfspZ1QQfclZ3QQfromZR11QQsacatZ58240QQ socmdZListingItemList


There's the Ebay section to find a base set for a dial gage so you can check your crank correctly. Do yourself a favor and don't get a brand new made in china set for fifty cents. They don't work. Get yourself a quality set made a couple or few decades ago. I like nsk japan but there are some good US brands too. Starrett and Mitutoyo are the mainline brands today. An antique Brown and Sharp or NSK Japan set will be higher quality.

[cdigerlando]

Mike:

How much bend did you have in the crank when your shop was done maching it? The dial guage I used is very accurate, it just doesn't read down to more than .25 thousands, and is difficult to position between the lobes. At less than half the allowable bend on the last journal I'm sure it will be fine. My original bearings looked very clean.

Don't forget too, I didn't coat the tops of my pistons, so they should heat up and expand fairly quickly. After speaking to CP I decided against it, so here I am. My machine shop guy has installed many CP pistons, in fact he doesn't like installing anything but, and did not think it is a problem, so at this point I'm going to trust his judgement. Besides a little piston slap at startup doesn't get me too worried.

[SVXRide]

Mike:

Besides a little piston slap at startup doesn't get me too worried.

Okay, so everyone is going to remember that Chuck said this a month or so from now:rolleyes::D
-Bill

[longassname]

My crank didn't have any bend in it when I installed it. A quarter of a thousandth is a weird graduation for a dial gage. They are normally graduated at .001, .0005, or .0001. I wasn't suggesting changing the dial gage unless it has a short tip making it hard to position. I was suggesting you get a quality base so you can position it to check run out correctly. Your fine even with a .001 graduated dial gage, you'll still be able to clearly observe movement of a couple tens, but you need to check run out on all journals.



Mike:

How much bend did you have in the crank when your shop was done maching it? The dial guage I used is very accurate, it just doesn't read down to more than .25 thousands, and is difficult to position between the lobes. At less than half the allowable bend on the last journal I'm sure it will be fine. My original bearings looked very clean.

Don't forget too, I didn't coat the tops of my pistons, so they should heat up and expand fairly quickly. After speaking to CP I decided against it, so here I am. My machine shop guy has installed many CP pistons, in fact he doesn't like installing anything but, and did not think it is a problem, so at this point I'm going to trust his judgement. Besides a little piston slap at startup doesn't get me too worried.

[black beast]

look what i started... Hope all goes well chuck, keep us posted!

[sicksubie]

what did you start???:confused:

[black beast]

I posted the one for the chicke and tom's build. Then this one pops up. hehe

[sicksubie]

You didn't start this.... Chuck has been acquiring parts for his build for the past year now with the rest of LAN's customers... This thread is no different than my engine build thread that YT did or the one the LAN just finished.

He is talking about physically building a motor here, not just trying to make more hp N/A. WAY MORE technical stuff than ANYTHING in that Chike/Tom thread...

[cdigerlando]

My crank didn't have any bend in it when I installed it. A quarter of a thousandth is a weird graduation for a dial gage. They are normally graduated at .001, .0005, or .0001. I wasn't suggesting changing the dial gage unless it has a short tip making it hard to position. I was suggesting you get a quality base so you can position it to check run out correctly. Your fine even with a .001 graduated dial gage, you'll still be able to clearly observe movement of a couple tens, but you need to check run out on all journals.

Yes the base won't do it. Its the guage itself that won't fit.

[sicksubie]

are you going to use stock HG's or did you get a set of cometics?

[longassname]

There are a lot of very nice dial gages on ebay for cheap.



Yes the base won't do it. Its the guage itself that won't fit.

[cdigerlando]

I contacted ARP regarding preload on the studs, as I would prefer to just grind a little off the top of the stud. They said that grinding would be fine. They did not say that preloading was bad, but did not endorse it either. I don't see why it would be a problem, although it may be a little squirly on the threads. I also asked about breaking in the studs, as they recommend re torquing after a heat cycle. They did say that "breaking in" the studs could be done by torquing them 3 - 5 times. Problem is, they claim that the head gasket needs to be re compressed, so I don't think this would be affected by just doing the initial break in, unless the clamping force is such that it compensates for any gasket expansion. At least I don't need to pull the engine again and remove the darn cams to re torque everything.

Mike: did you say that we were about 0.05" high? If so I'll just pregrind this amount off the top before installing.

[cdigerlando]

Okay, so everyone is going to remember that Chuck said this a month or so from now:rolleyes::D
-Bill

Give me a break! CP is recommending 0.0035 so 0.004 is going to be a problem? I seriously doubt it.

[cdigerlando]

are you going to use stock HG's or did you get a set of cometics?

cometic gaskets

[cdigerlando]

I am going to check the crank with a different dial gauge on Wed. This is really slowing down my build, as I will not be able to work on it next weekend. I will not be heating and pounding on polished and balanced crank that is bent less than a thousand. I have discussed this matter with my machine shop.

[SVXRide]

Give me a break! CP is recommending 0.0035 so 0.004 is going to be a problem? I seriously doubt it.

I was joking, Chuck;):D
-Bill

[longassname]

Ya but better safe than sorry. You are doing the right thing taking your time to check it.




I am going to check the crank with a different dial gauge on Wed. This is really slowing down my build, as I will not be able to work on it next weekend. I will not be heating and pounding on polished and balanced crank that is bent less than a thousand. I have discussed this matter with my machine shop.

[longassname]

No, there are a couple of impreza engine builders that use a .0040 sidewall clearance on their high hp builds to make sure their customers don't swell them up in the holes; they are just noisy when cold--you should be fine.


Give me a break! CP is recommending 0.0035 so 0.004 is going to be a problem? I seriously doubt it.

[cdigerlando]

I checked the crank. It is out about 0.0005 at 7 & 6 and a slight movement on Journal 3. The rest are not measureable. The dial guage I used measures up to 15 thousands per revolution, so the resolution between thousands is pretty high. Almost as high as the original dial guage where I measured about 0.75 thousands. I also checked this on a second gauge.

I was unable to double check the bores. Was supposed to do that today but got sidetracked with my son. Harry's bore guage was not set up (brand new). He was going to have one of the guys at his shop set it up this week. I don't want to bolt it up and find out I have a problem with the bores. As I said before the shop said they bored it to 0.004. This should put the bore diameter at about 3.823 if it was done correctly.

[longassname]

Did you check for round first? The numbers sound more like out of round than a bend.

Your bore should definitely not be 3.823 if done correctly. You added an extra 4 thou to what the bore should be there instead of to what the piston should be. Your bores should be right around 3.819. Whatever it is you'll find some fluctuation in it. You want to write down your measurements and take them as follows:

measure each bore relatively close to the top but not the tipy top
repeat that measurement 90 degrees off to check for round
measure each bore close to the bottom to check for taper

Unlike most automotive engines the cyllinders are blind holes on subaru engines which makes them dificult to hone for someone not experienced in honing blind holes. That means to take your looking for taper seriously; many machine shops will mess this up. (A tip for others: machine shops that do outboard boat engines are used to honing blind holes)

After you have your actual bore measurements you want to measure your pistons with an outside micrometer. Because you have my pistons you will find they all measure within a ten of each other (ie + or - .00005") but still you can put the bigger ones in the bigger cyllinders and the smaller ones in the smaller cyllinders and at any rate subtracting the piston diameter from the bore tells you your sidewall clearance. (it's a safe bet anything beyond 3.8200 is bad)



I checked the crank. It is out about 0.0005 at 7 & 6 and a slight movement on Journal 3. The rest are not measureable. The dial guage I used measures up to 15 thousands per revolution, so the resolution between thousands is pretty high. Almost as high as the original dial guage where I measured about 0.75 thousands. I also checked this on a second gauge.

I was unable to double check the bores. Was supposed to do that today but got sidetracked with my son. Harry's bore guage was not set up (brand new). He was going to have one of the guys at his shop set it up this week. I don't want to bolt it up and find out I have a problem with the bores. As I said before the shop said they bored it to 0.004. This should put the bore diameter at about 3.823 if it was done correctly.

[cdigerlando]

Did you check for round first? The numbers sound more like out of round than a bend.

Your bore should definitely not be 3.823 if done correctly. You added an extra 4 thou to what the bore should be there instead of to what the piston should be. Your bores should be right around 3.819. Whatever it is you'll find some fluctuation in it. You want to write down your measurements and take them as follows:

measure each bore relatively close to the top but not the tipy top
repeat that measurement 90 degrees off to check for round
measure each bore close to the bottom to check for taper

Unlike most automotive engines the cyllinders are blind holes on subaru engines which makes them dificult to hone for someone not experienced in honing blind holes. That means to take your looking for taper seriously; many machine shops will mess this up. (A tip for others: machine shops that do outboard boat engines are used to honing blind holes)

After you have your actual bore measurements you want to measure your pistons with an outside micrometer. Because you have my pistons you will find they all measure within a ten of each other (ie + or - .00005") but still you can put the bigger ones in the bigger cyllinders and the smaller ones in the smaller cyllinders and at any rate subtracting the piston diameter from the bore tells you your sidewall clearance. (it's a safe bet anything beyond 3.8200 is bad)

I noticed in your thread that your bores match what you just told me, however, when I measured the piston skirt, I came up with 3.819" which is close to 97.0 mm, which is what I thought the listed diameter of the piston was. When Harry measured the piston bores with a telescopic gauge, he came up with measurements at 3.818 to 3.822. A lot of out of round and a lot of some difference between top and bottom. Not very repeatable. We were using a telescopic gauge and vernier caliper to measure. I don't really trust the telescopic gauge, so we'll be using a bore gauge next time. If the bores don't work out I will take it back.

If I had to go with a coating, about how much does this typically add to the piston diameter?

[longassname]

Yikes that sounds aweful but ya you won't get good measurements with a telescopic gage. I would guess all that fluctuation in measurements is from the measuring not the machining. Who's Harry? Your machinist doesn't have the tools to measure your bores? How did he hone them?

Sounds like you need to work on your outside micrometer skills/tools too--there is no way your piston skirts measure that. Feel free to call if you need assistance.


I noticed in your thread that your bores match what you just told me, however, when I measured the piston skirt, I came up with 3.819" which is close to 97.0 mm, which is what I thought the listed diameter of the piston was. When Harry measured the piston bores with a telescopic gauge, he came up with measurements at 3.818 to 3.822. A lot of out of round and a lot of some difference between top and bottom. Not very repeatable. We were using a telescopic gauge and vernier caliper to measure. I don't really trust the telescopic gauge, so we'll be using a bore gauge next time. If the bores don't work out I will take it back.

If I had to go with a coating, about how much does this typically add to the piston diameter?

[cdigerlando]

Yikes that sounds aweful but ya you won't get good measurements with a telescopic gage. I would guess all that fluctuation in measurements is from the measuring not the machining. Who's Harry? Your machinist doesn't have the tools to measure your bores? How did he hone them?

Sounds like you need to work on your outside micrometer skills/tools too--there is no way your piston skirts measure that. Feel free to call if you need assistance.


In all likelyhood my machinist probably did a better job measuring all of this stuff than I did. Harry is a Nasioc member, and a pretty high level engineer in Central Florida. He has a lot of good measurement tools, but we engineers don't really use them that much. I trust a good practiced machinist for measurment better than myself.

I worked on a new technique to get around the piston and into the bores. Everything is looking pretty good. 3.816 on the pistons, about 3.8195 on the bores. I still want to check the bores with a bore caliper though so I can get top and bottom measurments.

[longassname]

The best way to use an outside micrometer on something cyllindrical like your pistons is to (after zeroing it on a certified standard) set it to what you think the measurement should be and lock it at that setting (alternatively close the micrometer on the piston until the ratchet clicks then back it off about 5 tens and lock it). Then try to slip it around the piston. If the piston is larger than what you have the micrometer set at it won't go if it's smaller it will. It's easiest to work from the direction of having the micrometer set too big so in short what you are doing is getting the micrometer set just a little too big as your starting point. From there close it down one ten and lock it and try again repeating until it won't slide around the piston and then backing it off half a ten and locking it. If it slides over the piston then you have your measurement if not back it off another half ten. This method will give you the correct measurment including the guesstimate digit (the fraction of a ten)for scientific notation.


In all likelyhood my machinist probably did a better job measuring all of this stuff than I did. Harry is a Nasioc member, and a pretty high level engineer in Central Florida. He has a lot of good measurement tools, but we engineers don't really use them that much. I trust a good practiced machinist for measurment better than myself.

I worked on a new technique to get around the piston and into the bores. Everything is looking pretty good. 3.816 on the pistons, about 3.8195 on the bores. I still want to check the bores with a bore caliper though so I can get top and bottom measurments.

[longassname]

oh ...

just fyi The reason for the locking in the methodology is otherwise the thimble turns on you while you are sliding the micrometer around the piston.

[SVXRide]

Good stuff...brings back memories of my early days working in a Navy machine shop:cool:
-Bill

[cdigerlando]

I finally got a good bore gauge. I found a couple of issues. One I have a spot at the top of one of my cylinders about 25 tens deep. The piston was honed out to a clearance of about 37 tens, so I don't want to go much more. I would rather not scrap the block, but I also don't want to take a chance that this would be a problem in the future. I'm thinking about doing a swain heavy skirt coating which adds about 40 tens to the diameter. This might not even be enough to hone out this spot though, so I may need to go to 45 tens total clearance with the coating. This would mean honing another 50 tens clearance. I'm going to talk to my machine shop and see if they will let me camp out next to the CNC machine with my bore gauge.

Also my other bores varied from 15 to 25 tens clearance. I would prefer to have them all closer to 35 tens. Also the cylinder that was bored to 37 tens showed a lot better roundness and less taper. One cylinder I measured did not meet subaru's taper tolerance, so it definitely needs more work.

This would leave me a bit lopsided though. I don't know if I should just coat one piston or do all of them. If I do all of them, I'll have to see if one of you guys wants to trade my cut rings for your uncut rings. Could save you the bother of doing it. It's basically set up to run the same clearances that Mike ran with a 35 tens clearance. Slightly smaller would probably not matter much.

Another option that I am considering is sleaving. I have a call into AR fabrication to see how much that would cost. They typically charge about 1850 for a 4 cylinder so I'm thinking for a 6 cylinder he is probably going to charge me after honing and decking about $3000. I'm not too happy about that.

I know that when I talk to chris about the spot he is not going to think it is a problem, however I just don't want to take the chance. I'm also not too happy about the taper in the bores.

Fun fun stuff.

[longassname]

Got any pictures? The quality of the machine work doesn't sound very impressive so far so I'd be interested in seeing the cyllinder finish. I'd also be interested in seeing what this spot you are talking about is.

cnc machine? He's not using a real honing machine?


I finally got a good bore gauge. I found a couple of issues. One I have a spot at the top of one of my cylinders about 25 tens deep. The piston was honed out to a clearance of about 37 tens, so I don't want to go much more. I would rather not scrap the block, but I also don't want to take a chance that this would be a problem in the future. I'm thinking about doing a swain heavy skirt coating which adds about 40 tens to the diameter. This might not even be enough to hone out this spot though, so I may need to go to 45 tens total clearance with the coating. This would mean honing another 50 tens clearance. I'm going to talk to my machine shop and see if they will let me camp out next to the CNC machine with my bore gauge.

Also my other bores varied from 15 to 25 tens clearance. I would prefer to have them all closer to 35 tens. Also the cylinder that was bored to 37 tens showed a lot better roundness and less taper. One cylinder I measured did not meet subaru's taper tolerance, so it definitely needs more work.

This would leave me a bit lopsided though. I don't know if I should just coat one piston or do all of them. If I do all of them, I'll have to see if one of you guys wants to trade my cut rings for your uncut rings. Could save you the bother of doing it. It's basically set up to run the same clearances that Mike ran with a 35 tens clearance. Slightly smaller would probably not matter much.

Another option that I am considering is sleaving. I have a call into AR fabrication to see how much that would cost. They typically charge about 1850 for a 4 cylinder so I'm thinking for a 6 cylinder he is probably going to charge me after honing and decking about $3000. I'm not too happy about that.

I know that when I talk to chris about the spot he is not going to think it is a problem, however I just don't want to take the chance. I'm also not too happy about the taper in the bores.

Fun fun stuff.

[cdigerlando]

Got any pictures? The quality of the machine work doesn't sound very impressive so far so I'd be interested in seeing the cyllinder finish. I'd also be interested in seeing what this spot you are talking about is.

cnc machine? He's not using a real honing machine?

I'm probably not using the correct wording for his equipment.

The finish looks good. I'll take pics before I put it together.

Looking at the numbers it is obvious to me that the cylinders needed much more honing due to the engine's age. The greater the clearance honed, the better the roundness and taper of the bore. Well within spec. The question is how much honing will I need to do to smooth out my corrosion pit. I won't know that until I hone the cylinder. I'm hoping that the skirt coating will increase the diameter of the piston enough and require a large enough bore to open up this area. From the numbers I saw looking at the bores, I'm confident that his machine is true. I will pick my largest diameter piston following coating and use this in my problem cylinder 3. Hopefully the new required diameter will not require too much clearance. With the skirt coated piston I may actually not go with 35 tens clearance if I can help it. I may keep the clearance somewhere closer to 20 or 25 tens with this coating on the piston. I don't think that would be enough boring though, based on the pit depth. Whatever I need to take off around the pit I have to take off the other side so the numbers would double. So for 25 tens of pit I would need to take off 50 tens of diameter. Since I am only adding 40 tens of diameter from the coating, and already have 37 tens of clearance I may be short of my goal.

[longassname]

Maybe it would be easier to use different pistons with this block or a different block with these pistons.


I'm probably not using the correct wording for his equipment.

The finish looks good. I'll take pics before I put it together.

Looking at the numbers it is obvious to me that the cylinders needed much more honing due to the engine's age. The greater the clearance honed, the better the roundness and taper of the bore. Well within spec. The question is how much honing will I need to do to smooth out my corrosion pit. I won't know that until I hone the cylinder. I'm hoping that the skirt coating will increase the diameter of the piston enough and require a large enough bore to open up this area. From the numbers I saw looking at the bores, I'm confident that his machine is true. I will pick my largest diameter piston following coating and use this in my problem cylinder 3. Hopefully the new required diameter will not require too much clearance. With the skirt coated piston I may actually not go with 35 tens clearance if I can help it. I may keep the clearance somewhere closer to 20 or 25 tens with this coating on the piston. I don't think that would be enough boring though, based on the pit depth. Whatever I need to take off around the pit I have to take off the other side so the numbers would double. So for 25 tens of pit I would need to take off 50 tens of diameter. Since I am only adding 40 tens of diameter from the coating, and already have 37 tens of clearance I may be short of my goal.

[cdigerlando]

Maybe it would be easier to use different pistons with this block or a different block with these pistons.

The thought of getting a new block crossed my mind. Hence why I asked my machinist to do number 3 first before semi closing the deck. I think I'll be OK with the coating though.

Different pistons? Who sells them?

Anyone want to trade uncut rings for my precut rings? Would save you time and save me money. If there is an issue I would be happy to compensate, but they are set to run at 35 tens. If you run less clearance you would just have to file a little more.

Mike how much for a 6 new set of rings?

[longassname]

Chuck how did you file your rings without your bores being done first?


To get the sameish pistons for a larger bore we'd have to order them. If you wanted to run more compression I have the 9.3 CR pistons coming in soon though I think there are a couple of other people who want them too.

I'll have to check on the price for rings.

[cdigerlando]

Chuck how did you file your rings without your bores being done first?


To get the sameish pistons for a larger bore we'd have to order them. If you wanted to run more compression I have the 9.3 CR pistons coming in soon though I think there are a couple of other people who want them too.

I'll have to check on the price for rings.

Apparently he filed them using number 3 bore as a guide. When I checked them so they are running less gap with the smaller bore diameters. They came out right around the same clearance as yours. Basically he said that they were all the same bore diameter so it would not matter.

Buying new rings at this point seems like a waste, but unless any of the guys who bought pistons want to trade, I will be stuck with them. It would be better for them since they are cut to fit the 37 tens bore, with the same clearances you used.

I'm not thinking about new pistons. I would sleeve the motor before I would do that.

[longassname]

It's sounding like getting a different block or sleeving the one you have are your best options then.


Apparently he filed them using number 3 bore as a guide. When I checked them so they are running less gap with the smaller bore diameters. They came out right around the same clearance as yours. Basically he said that they were all the same bore diameter so it would not matter.

Buying new rings at this point seems like a waste, but unless any of the guys who bought pistons want to trade, I will be stuck with them. It would be better for them since they are cut to fit the 37 tens bore, with the same clearances you used.

I'm not thinking about new pistons. I would sleeve the motor before I would do that.

[cdigerlando]

AR Fabrication has recently figured out that sleeving an EG33 Block is just as easy as sleeving a 4 cylinder. I have sent my motor to them to sleeve. There will be a lot of other things done such as coatings to the pistons, porting and polishing of the heads and coatings. Everything else should be ready to assemble. I am also going the extra mile and having ARP main case bolts installed. ARP was able to work up a reasonable kit price for our engine. They will be taking photos as they progress with the project and I will post them as I get them in.

[SVXRide]

Chuck,
Can you define "reasonable" and provide a part number(s) for the kit?
Thanks.
-Bill

[cdigerlando]

Chuck,
Can you define "reasonable" and provide a part number(s) for the kit?
Thanks.
-Bill

Reasonable may not be the correct word. The kit will retail for $700. I got it for about $660 plus shipping through AR Fab. I doubt it will be necessary unless you are running huge horsepower. Defining huge horsepower as over 600 HP on a 4 cylinder and probably much more on the EG33.

Basically howard has broken down a lot of motors after building them. He noticed friction on the block halves when running big HP on the 4 cyl motor. Bearings went. The bolts seem to raise this threashold considerably. He also had a lot more experience to share with me, which I will try to write up on some time again.