Schroth 4 point harnesses

[sicksubie]

I installed my 4 point harnesses this morning. The install took about 30 minutes or so, but was easier because my back seat is already out. Here are some pics...

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s73/facagoalie/IMG_6953.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s73/facagoalie/IMG_6947.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s73/facagoalie/IMG_6948.jpg

Shoulder belts are connected where the rear seat buckles bolt in. you simply replace the stock bolt with a ring bolt.....
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s73/facagoalie/IMG_6952.jpg
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s73/facagoalie/IMG_6951.jpg

[Speedklix]

looks good bobby.

Would adding a heavy bracket to push the rings out to the point you can snap the harness on without removing the rear seat/buckles be legal?

[SVXRide]

Bobby,
"Danger Will Robinson, Danger!!" Shoulder harnesses should have their attachment point at the same level as the top of your shoulders or they can actually impart serious damage on your body in the event of an accident. I'd suggest using the anchor point for the baby car seat that's located on the rear deck, as it will keep the belts ~ parallel with the floor of the car.
-Bill

[sicksubie]

Really now.... I installed per Schroth instructions that came with it...

[sicksubie]

I also do not know if this is important or not but these shoulder straps actually have a tear away feature. In the event of an accident (one that would throw you foward) the outside shoulder strap actually will tear away allowing your body a few inches of forward movement giving a cushioning effect. The strength of the stitching is based on your weight.

[sicksubie]

looks good bobby.

Would adding a heavy bracket to push the rings out to the point you can snap the harness on without removing the rear seat/buckles be legal?

I could still have my rear buckles in if I wanted to. However there are no seat belts back there at all. Nobody rides back there ever so I removed them along with stripping the trunk out.

[SVXRide]

Bobby,
Right out of the Schroth installation instructions:

SHOULDER BELT ROUTING
􀂾 Shoulder belts must run from the shoulders horizontally or down, at no
more than a 20° angle.
􀂾 In cases where the shoulder belts must be routed down to the chassis
floor, support by a roll cage bar or harness guide at the appropriate
height is essential to establish the horizontal shoulder strap routing off
the shoulder/HANS®. Most racing seats are not designed and tested to
carry shoulder belt crash loads from downward installation. Severe
injury or death could result. A 45° downward shoulder belt installation is
possible with seats that SCHROTH has positively tested to take a load
measured during a 50 kph [31 mph] and 28 G impact. Refer to the list
of SCHROTH approved racing seats in section “Bolts, Seats and Stuff”.
WARNING: 45° downward shoulder belt installation must never be
used with HANS®.

You really, really need to change the anchor points.
-Bill

[Speedklix]

I'd suggest using the anchor point for the baby car seat that's located on the rear deck

Great tip!

I think bobby is putting bride seats in, so if his seat is listed these mount points would be good, yes? just no good with the current setup.

I could still have my rear buckles in if I wanted to. However there are no seat belts back there at all. Nobody rides back there ever so I removed them along with stripping the trunk out.

Just checking for people like me who hope to keep interior and want to just snap the harness in on the weekend without ripping stuff out. Leaving it in might look cool though I guess :cool:

[sicksubie]

wow... my instructions do not say that anywhere... In addition to the instructions I also followed a DIY on NASIOC for installation of 4 point harnesses. Where are the mounting points you are talking about, Bill? I will be putting a rear seat back in too when I am done. Would that not interfere? Also this belt is only used during auto-x's where an accident is extremely unlikely. I will not be wearing this while just daily driving. So, based on that the seatbelt is more for holding me in the seat than for actual safety reasons (that would change if I were to run at Lime Rock though)


Mike, the shoulder belts have the release snaps but the lap belts do not. The inside belt attaches to where the seat bolts to the center hump and the outside one bolts to the seat belt mounting bolt. So, you would still have the lap belts to contend with during the non-race times.

[Speedklix]

Mike, the shoulder belts have the release snaps but the lap belts do not. The inside belt attaches to where the seat bolts to the center hump and the outside one bolts to the seat belt mounting bolt. So, you would still have the lap belts to contend with during the non-race times.

Aha.. well at least it would still be easy to stuff them under the seat.

[Speedklix]

Where are the mounting points you are talking about, Bill? I will be putting a rear seat back in too when I am done. Would that not interfere?
the impreza one would probably cause an issue, unless you're okay with the slack that would be added to snake the belts around/over the seatback. Or did you get it to fold down? If it folds down, then I imagine you'd be good.

[sicksubie]

I am putting a stock back seat in....

[sicksubie]

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1359814

[SVXRide]

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photopost/data/500/Corbeau-Installed-with-belt.jpg

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photopost/data/500/Harness-Attachment.jpg



Bobby,
I had my machinist/welder fabricate a bracket to extend the attachment point forward as the shoulder harnesses weren't long enough to reach all the way back. I also had the rear seat modified by the same woman who recovered by Corbeau seats.
-Bill

[sicksubie]

pics dont work.....

and what do you mean "extend forward"?

[SVXRide]

pics dont work.....

and what do you mean "extend forward"?

Bobby,
Pics should work now. By "extend forward", I mean we fabricated a triangular set up that allowed us to pick up the car seat anchor bolt hole and one of the bolts associated with the driver's side rear strut housing and locate the attachment point for the shoulder harnesses roughly 8 inches forward.
-Bill

[sicksubie]

Im looking over the directions I have here and do not see anything against my set up. The person who bought it before me had it set up this way too. Running the image of a body in an accident in my mind I dont see how my set up could result in anything worse of an injury than your set up.

[SVXRide]

Im looking over the directions I have here and do not see anything against my set up. The person who bought it before me had it set up this way too. Running the image of a body in an accident in my mind I dont see how my set up could result in anything worse of an injury than your set up.

Bobby,
You can go to the Schroth site and download their installation .pdf file (www.schrothracing.com/docs/Competition_Instructions.pdf ). It actually has pictures of crash dummies in their harnesses so you can see what happens. Bottom line is that, in the event of an accident, your body will keep going forward and the loading of the shoulder harnesses will actually be down on your shoulders instead of being equally distributed across your chest. This is why Schroth says not to vary by more than 20 degrees off of horizontal with the attachment of the shoulder harnesses. Check with Dan (ShotgunSlade), as I doubt that Lime Rock, Summit Point, or any of the other tracks will allow you to run with the belts anchored the way you've got them.
-Bill
p.s. then again, you also need to have the same type of belts for the passenger as you do for the driver in order to run at Summit, etc. which is why I still need to get a belt for the passenger:rolleyes:

[sicksubie]

So how the guy had them mounted in the Legacy was dangerous..... Yeah I realized that today that I will need a pass side belt too because I will have a instructor until I am cleared to ride solo.... Maybe a harness bar is in order for me now.

[sicksubie]

BTW... Thanks for the input. It would really stink to go to Lime Rock just to be turned away because of this.

[TomsSVX]

Bobby,
You can go to the Schroth site and download their installation .pdf file (www.schrothracing.com/docs/Competition_Instructions.pdf ). It actually has pictures of crash dummies in their harnesses so you can see what happens. Bottom line is that, in the event of an accident, your body will keep going forward and the loading of the shoulder harnesses will actually be down on your shoulders instead of being equally distributed across your chest. This is why Schroth says not to vary by more than 20 degrees off of horizontal with the attachment of the shoulder harnesses. Check with Dan (ShotgunSlade), as I doubt that Lime Rock, Summit Point, or any of the other tracks will allow you to run with the belts anchored the way you've got them.
-Bill
p.s. then again, you also need to have the same type of belts for the passenger as you do for the driver in order to run at Summit, etc. which is why I still need to get a belt for the passenger:rolleyes:

Now if Bill would only pick up his other racing seat.... and harness.... and engine.....:repost::lol:

Tomn

[LetItSnow]

Everybody beat me to the details, including a picture that uses the same mount point my belt does:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w187/LetItSnow_photos/SVX/photos_071207/trunk.jpg

Flip the back seat up, and p-chow! Nobody even knows it's there.

I don't know that I'd trust the baby seat strap mounts - I'm heavier than the average baby. Stock seatbelt bolts are good!

[crazyhorse]

I'm gonna have a go at a theoretical install.
If one welds a brace under the "package shelf", could this seve as the mounting point for a racing harness? IE: a 2x4 square tube welded in from strut tower to strut tower. This would do double duty, to reinforce the towers, and with bungs welded in for seatbelt anchors, the rear mounts for the shoulder straps. This should keep you within 20deg of horizontal as well. When the harness isn't attached, simply put appropriately colored plastic plugs in the holes.

[Hocrest]

I'm gonna have a go at a theoretical install.
If one welds a brace under the "package shelf", could this seve as the mounting point for a racing harness? IE: a 2x4 square tube welded in from strut tower to strut tower. This would do double duty, to reinforce the towers, and with bungs welded in for seatbelt anchors, the rear mounts for the shoulder straps. This should keep you within 20deg of horizontal as well. When the harness isn't attached, simply put appropriately colored plastic plugs in the holes.

Yeah, that would work as well. The problem with this idea and the others like Bill's is that they allow for a good deal of belt stretch. That extra three feet of belt to get to the rear shelf gives that much more belt to stretch and allow your body to move away from the seat on impact.

Like Bobby mentioned, in an AX setting where chance of a high speed impact is very low, and the major goal is positioning, this isn't a major concern. But in an AX setting I would much rather deal with belt stretch than spinal compression.

This is one of those situations where making something "a little safer" can be more dangerous. Harnesses, race seats, helmets and cages are all good things, but using only one or two of the four can be worse than the stock system.

A helmet is great at protecting your noggin, but in a major impact increases the forces pulling on your body and neck.

A cage is able to maintain a safe cell inside of your car, but without a helmet, harness and seat the cage gives a lot more hard surfaces to cause a head injury and other impact injuries.

A harness and seat will keep you in position, but without a cage, they could keep your head where the roof is going to end up. Also if the harness is tight enough to do it's safety job, it will not be comfortable for daily driving and reaching some switches on the dash will be almost impossible.

And the fact that to properly get into the harness takes a lot more effort than fastening a stock seat belt. I know Bobby plans to just use the harness for AX and use the stock belts the rest of the time, but I've seen street cars with the stock belts removed when the harnesses were installed.

Again, for autocrossing, you should be more concerned with a wheel flying off of another car and hitting you. But these are the reasons that you shouldn't add a harness or cage on a daily driver without thinking out all aspects of a crash.

And if you plan to add ANY modifications to a car that you plan to compete with or participate in any track events it is VITAL to check the rules of the events you plan to participate in. Tracks and organizers have different rules as do the sanctioning bodies.

There is something made that straps you into your stock seat. It's not made as a safety device, but meant to be used in addition to your stock seatbelts to hold you in position when AXing. I forget the name off hand??? *lock??

[crazyhorse]

Dave, what you're thinking of is the CG-lock. It locks the belts in place on the latch slider, so they can't move.
http://www.cg-lock.com/

[LetItSnow]

Another thing to consider is that, in some ride-along instructor circumstances, they will demand that the driver and passenger have identical restraints.

Re: CG Lock... I only wish there was a way that it would work with ol' motorbelts.

[Hocrest]

Dave, what you're thinking of is the CG-lock. It locks the belts in place on the latch slider, so they can't move.
http://www.cg-lock.com/

Yeah, that's one. And that is the name I was thinking of, but I've also seen big straps that hold you too the seat. I doubt they would be allowed in any track days.

[SVXRide]

Yeah, that's one. And that is the name I was thinking of, but I've also seen big straps that hold you too the seat. I doubt they would be allowed in any track days.

Dave,
Good comments in your earlier post! Perfect world would definitely be a cage with a shoulder belt attachment point ~6-12 inches behind the seat (speaking of which, when are you guys going to post up some pics of the RaceCar's cage?:D). The CG lock is a great piece of equipment, as long as you've got manual stock belts. It is worthless with our motorized belts:mad:
-Bill

[SVXRide]

Now if Bill would only pick up his other racing seat.... and harness.... and engine.....:repost::lol:

Tomn

Soon, my friend, soon!:lol:
-Bill

[Speedklix]

Everybody beat me to the details, including a picture that uses the same mount point my belt does:
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w187/LetItSnow_photos/SVX/photos_071207/trunk.jpg

Flip the back seat up, and p-chow! Nobody even knows it's there.

umm, where is your turnk lid :confused:
I don't know that I'd trust the baby seat strap mounts - I'm heavier than the average baby.
....yeah, those Schroth instructions actually say not to do that either

[LetItSnow]

umm, where is your [trunk] lid
The trunk is open. The flash did nasty things to the picture's contrast.

Rest assured, it's there. ;)