ECUtune Stage 2v7 & Stage 2v7F

[longassname]

I'm creating this thread now as Stage 2v7 and Stage 2v7F are ready to be released.

For those interested, the concept of Stage 2v7 and Stage 2v7F was originally brought up by me and refined and aggreed upon by SVX community members in the ECUtune New Developments thread on these forums http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=36339

What is stage 2v7? Stage 2v7 is performance engine management software for a 92-95 SVX and a memory adaptor which is used to install that software into an SVX engine control unit.

What does stage2v7 do? Stage 2v7 provides engine management for up to and maybe a little over 500 horse power.

How does stage 2v7 provide engine management for 500 hp using the stock ecu? In order to manage higher power outputs an engine management system needs to be able to measure more air and inject more fuel. The stage 2v7 software is used with a z32 maf meter to be able to measure more air and with sr20det 370cc fuel injectors to be able to inject more fuel.

Can i use stage 2v7 without the z32 maf meter or without sr20det 370cc fuel injectors? No, the software is precisely calibrated to use that sensor and those fuel injectors.

Will stage 2v7 make my SVX faster even if I don't do any other performance modifications? Yes stage 2v7 is tuned for performance and will make an otherwise stock SVX noticeably faster; however, that performance tuning is also offered in our Stage 1v5 software.

I'm not going to do any other modifications to my car should I get stage2v7 instead of stage 1v5? No, stage 1v5 will offer very similar performance and is cheaper.

When should I get Stage 2v7 instead of stage 1v5?

you want to turbocharge or supercharge
you want to run a dry nitrous oxide system
you will be doing engine modifications like camshafts
you will be running high rpms
you want to run e85 instead of gasoline


I can run E85 instead of gasoline if I have stage 2v7?
There are two versions of stage 2v7, "Stage 2v7" and "Stage 2v7F" The F in stage 2v7F stands for flex fuel. All ECUtune memory adaptors have the ability to house and switch between two sets of software. Stage 2v7F has one set of software for gasoline and one set of software for E85; this means that when you have Stage 2v7F you can fill up with either gasoline or E85 and just flip a switch according to which fuel you are using.

What does the 2nd set of software in the regular Stage 2v7 do? It is tuned for the use nitrous oxide...or if it needs be the use of regular unleaded gasoline instead of premium. To characterize it as simply as possilbe..there is less ignition advance under load.

If I want to turbocharge my car which is better a stand alone engine management system or stage 2v7? Stage 2v7 spanks whatever stand alone you are looking at. The factory engine management system of an SVX is very powerful. It is much more acurate than a stand alone engine management system and is very good at doing what it was designed and programmed to do. Subaru programmed it to use the factory injectors and afm because that's all a stock svx requires. With our programming and the sr20det injectors and z32 afm it is very good at managing 500hp. It's very good at 30 degrees F and it's very good at 100 degrees F, it's very good at sea level and it's very good visiting the Coors brewery, it's very good with the ac turned on and it's very good with the ac turned off, it's very good when the baltery voltage is high and it's very good when the battery voltage is low....in short, it's already programmed to acurately handle every opperating condition you can encounter anywhere. You can install it in an hour and turn the key and have a perfectly running car with more acurate engine management than you would have after a year of custom tuning a stand alone.

[Phast SVX]

:D awesome mike, cannot wait to purchase!

[NikFu S.]

If I wasn't sold before, I certainly am now.

Now to decide, bike, or SVX mods this year...

[longassname]

I'll get it up on the website today.

[svxfiles]

If I wasn't sold before, I certainly am now.

Now to decide, bike, or SVX mods this year...
Dude!
SVX mods!


It snows where you are......:eek:



A 45mph wind chill and 10f just sucks!:mad: :(

[shotgunslade]

Mike:

I have Stage 2 V6 with the original Chike intake cam substitution. I still suffer a little bit from 5MT stall, especially in warm weather (I've narrowed it down to that. Haven't yet tried diddling with my fpr in warm weather to overcome this). I don't really plan additional engine mods, at the current time. Any advantage for me with the Stage 2 v7.

[NikFu S.]

Dude!
SVX mods!
It snows where you are......:eek:
A 45mph wind chill and 10f just sucks!:mad: :(
Considering todays events I just might scrap the bike idea til next year..

I gotta decide soon though. I don't have summer tires yet and the ice is beginning to melt. :/

[longassname]

It's barely still today but I did manage to get 2v7 on the website today.

Those who have 2v6 and want 2v7 you can for a limited time send me your 2v6 ROMs and when I get them I will send you a paypal invoice for $20 and send you 2v7 ROMs. I understand that this will leave you minus software during the transit time but unfortunately it has been repeatedly proven that if I send something out expecting something back I will not get everything back.

The regular upgrade prices are available through the website. When upgrades are ordered through the website you don't need to send back your old roms. I will simply verify what you have ordered from us in our database to approve the upgrade.

[longassname]

Your set up is kind of borderline decision wise....
Those cams don't do much but you also have the manual so you can run higher rpms. The timing floor is higher in 2v7 too so that may help with your stall if you wire the ecu to think it is in Neutral all the time.
.........therefore......I don't know........

Mike:

I have Stage 2 V6 with the original Chike intake cam substitution. I still suffer a little bit from 5MT stall, especially in warm weather (I've narrowed it down to that. Haven't yet tried diddling with my fpr in warm weather to overcome this). I don't really plan additional engine mods, at the current time. Any advantage for me with the Stage 2 v7.

[SVXRide]

Your set up is kind of borderline decision wise....
Those cams don't do much but you also have the manual so you can run higher rpms. The timing floor is higher in 2v7 too so that may help with your stall if you wire the ecu to think it is in Neutral all the time.
.........therefore......I don't know........


Sounds like a definite maybe:p
-Bill

[longassname]

you know..what we can do to make the upgrade from 2v6 to 2v7 easier is ...

after you have your injectors and the electrical connectors for them
purchase the upgrade from the website and make note in your paypal payment that you have 2v6 and will be sending your 2v6 ROMs back
If I actually get your 2v6 ROMs back within the time period paypal lets me refund a payment I will do a partial refund for $109

[immortal_suby]

Great news Michael! I've been waiting on this upgrade. The paypal's in the net! When I ordered I didn't get a chance or I was too stupid to notice how to specify the nitrous version and not the ethanol version so if you can please set me up with the nitrous version.
Thanks

[longassname]

That was my fault. I forgot to add the buttons for Stage2v7F. I added them now. I just sent you an email asking which you wanted before I read this post.....got it, 2v7 is on the way


Great news Michael! I've been waiting on this upgrade. The paypal's in the net! When I ordered I didn't get a chance or I was too stupid to notice how to specify the nitrous version and not the ethanol version so if you can please set me up with the nitrous version.
Thanks

[longassname]

what you should really do is upgrade to 2v7 and get the ECUtune cam set. not trying to push the cams or anything....just they really are b*d **s!

Mike:

I have Stage 2 V6 with the original Chike intake cam substitution. I still suffer a little bit from 5MT stall, especially in warm weather (I've narrowed it down to that. Haven't yet tried diddling with my fpr in warm weather to overcome this). I don't really plan additional engine mods, at the current time. Any advantage for me with the Stage 2 v7.

[immortal_suby]

If anyone is having trouble finding injectors for this upgrade on ebay I suggest going straight to sr20forum.com Look in the classified section under the forced induction performance parts subforum. Alot of them have been going for $85 to $100 for a set of 4. If all goes well I'll have 8 of them very soon. They have been going upwards of $120 for a set of 4 on ebay lately.

[kcpaz]

so the 2v7 can automatically adjust for forced induction??? there is no need to adjust the airflow, timing, and fuel maps when going from n/a to turbo? How does this work? I'm new to the SVX scene so pardon my ignorance, but this sounds too good to be true. No need for data-logging and adjusting sliders to eliminate knock? coming from a DSM background, this sounds like a miracle. How does this work?

[longassname]

Optimum Air to fuel ratio and ignition timing vary according to two things, RPM and Load. Engine load can either be acurately calculated by measuring the amount of air ingested per revolution or estimated from manifold absolute pressure (reading from a MAP sensor). In systems which use a MAP sensor the shape of the table which translates the MAP sensor voltage into a load reading is particular to the mechanics of the engine; if you change cams, or turbos, or anything at all substantial the old translation table becomes inacurate. The SVX engine management system calculates load based on readings from a Mass Air Flow sensor. In Mass air flow systems the translation table which translates the voltage from the mass air flow meter into a load reading is dependent soley on the meter. Changing engine hardware does not make the load readings inaccurate unless you start ingesting more air than the mass air flow meter is able to acurately measure.

The stage 2 software has the translation table and other adjustments which match a z32 mass air flow meter. The z32 mass air flow meter is able to measure 500 hp worth of air so as long as you are making less than 500 hp or at least not a whole lot more the stage 2 engine management system is able to acurately calculate load and then adjust the afr and ignition timing to optimum for that engine load.

In the stage 2 software the tables which specify the target afr and ignition timing for each given combination of rpm and engine load include values for higher than factory load ranges based upon our experience with supercharged SVX's. Again, the optimum afr and ignition timing for any given rpm & load value do not vary according to how you get there. It doesn't matter if you use a turbo, or a supercharger, or whatever--the optimum afr and igntion timing for a given load and rpm is what it is. Different turbos etc don't change what the optimum value is for a cell in a table; they change what cells in the table you tend to operate in.

Given that you have large enough fuel injectors to deliver enough fuel, a mass air flow meter that can measure the air flow, and the correct values specified for afr and ignition timing for the entire load range a mass air flow based engine management system remains acurate and handles engine modifications well. The stage 2v7 system can handle around 500hp.



so the 2v7 can automatically adjust for forced induction??? there is no need to adjust the airflow, timing, and fuel maps when going from n/a to turbo? How does this work? I'm new to the SVX scene so pardon my ignorance, but this sounds too good to be true. No need for data-logging and adjusting sliders to eliminate knock? coming from a DSM background, this sounds like a miracle. How does this work?

[kcpaz]

so what AFR does the stage 2 shoot for? 11.1, 10.5? I mean there are different goals for n/a and forced induction right?

So the ECU will come up with it's own timing and fuel maps based on how much air the MAF is telling it it is recieving? What about air temp, and knock?

[longassname]

No you aren't getting it.

What afr does it shoot for at what engine load?

At light loads the cells are likely to read something like 14.7. At moderate loads that might occur at full throttle na or part throttle under forced induction the cells are likely to read something like 12.7. At heavier loads under heavier boost the cells will read a lower afr like 11.7.

The target afr for a given engine load doesn't change depending on how you get there. You are just talking about different areas of engine operation--reading different cells.

so what AFR does the stage 2 shoot for? 11.1, 10.5? I mean there are different goals for n/a and forced induction right?

So the ECU will come up with it's own timing and fuel maps based on how much air the MAF is telling it it is recieving? What about air temp, and knock?

[longassname]

I think I may have just figured out what is making you missunderstand. I bet you are thinking the fuel table specifies how much fuel to inject. It doesn't on an SVX. The ECU is able to calculate exactly how much fuel to inject to reach an afr from the mass air readings. The fuel table specifies what afr to run under the operating conditions which match a cell.

The cells in the region of the table which an na car operates is in the left side of the table. The region of the table of the table a forced induction car operates under when under boost is towards the right side of the table. Get it? Load is an axis of the fuel and timing tables. When you talk about having a lower target afr for a turbo car you aren't talking about changing the value of a cell; you are talking about reading the value out of a cell further to the right in the table.

Likewise with timing. When you talk about running less ignition timing under boost you aren't talking about changing the value of a cell; you are talking about reading the value out of a cell further to right in the table.


So long as the engine management system is able to measure the mass of air being ingested, deliver the required quantity of fuel, has tables that cover the entire load range, and has the correct values in those tables it doesn't matter what hardware you use to get the air in.

[kcpaz]

I understand that ARF will change depending on engine load (open loop/closed loop). What I'm trying to figure out is how a system that works great for n/a operation could also work great for forced induction without making any changes to anything involving the engine management. It's obvious that you are much more knowlegable than me about this. I'm just trying to figure it all out. It just sounds too good to be true


For example...

With DSM engine management (which also uses a MAF based system) we use piggyback engine management systems to compensate for larger injectors and MAF sensors that allow for a larger range of measurement. Basically we can tune our cars for maximum power with our given set-up. If we add a larger turbo and better intercooler that gives us a cooler air charge, we can change out tune and take advantage of some more power. However, these systems are all user adjustable and we make adjustments based on info recieved through data-logging. I use this system... http://www.dsmlink.com/ to tune my Galant VR4. I can make adjustments to compensate for any injectors, timing, airflow, and a bunch of other things via a laptop computer. I understand that your stage 2 system already has compensations built in for the Z32 MAF and 370 injectors. In our cars we shoot for an AFR of around 10.5 to no leaner than 12.0 on pump gas. If we experience knock, we car try to fix it by making adjustments to timing or fuel. We try to make as much power as we can given our individual circumstances and set-ups.

It just seems like injectors that work well in N/A would come up short when applied to a boosted system. Or do the 370's fall into a sweet spot where they can function great in both situations?


Again, sorry for my ignorance.

[longassname]

Ya, you are describing work arounds. They don't have the ability to correctly reprogram the ecu so everytime you change something you have to fiddle with your engine management dongles again. You can't compare piggy back crap with the most powerful engine management system, correctly programmed.

The JECS engine management systems is extremely powerfull. Correctly programmed we can use huge injectors with no effect to idle or light cruise operation at all. The stage 3 software works fine na too (740cc injectors). That whole you can't get big injectors to idle thing is a bunch of cr*p that only applies to people who don't have the ability to write the correct software to control them. A JECS engine management system takes latency into account when calculating pulse width--it even goes a step further and takes the effect of varying battery voltage on latency into account when calculting pulse width. It doesn't matter what size injectors you use; if you put the right values into the software to match the injectors it will calculate the correct pulse width.




I understand that ARF will change depending on engine load (open loop/closed loop). What I'm trying to figure out is how a system that works great for n/a operation could also work great for forced induction without making any changes to anything involving the engine management. It's obvious that you are much more knowlegable than me about this. I'm just trying to figure it all out. It just sounds too good to be true


For example...

With DSM engine management (which also uses a MAF based system) we use piggyback engine management systems to compensate for larger injectors and MAF sensors that allow for a larger range of measurement. Basically we can tune our cars for maximum power with our given set-up. If we add a larger turbo and better intercooler that gives us a cooler air charge, we can change out tune and take advantage of some more power. However, these systems are all user adjustable and we make adjustments based on info recieved through data-logging. I use this system... http://www.dsmlink.com/ to tune my Galant VR4. I can make adjustments to compensate for any injectors, timing, airflow, and a bunch of other things via a laptop computer. I understand that your stage 2 system already has compensations built in for the Z32 MAF and 370 injectors. In our cars we shoot for an AFR of around 10.5 to no leaner than 12.0 on pump gas. If we experience knock, we car try to fix it by making adjustments to timing or fuel. We try to make as much power as we can given our individual circumstances and set-ups.

It just seems like injectors that work well in N/A would come up short when applied to a boosted system. Or do the 370's fall into a sweet spot where they can function great in both situations?


Again, sorry for my ignorance.

[kcpaz]

I think I get what you are saying now. What the stage 2 does is it expands the operation range of the stock ECU to allow it to go beyond n/a operation. For example...instead of the ECU reading up to a 1600hz signal it can now read up to say 2400hz signal and make fuel and timing adjustments according to that new range. Is that right?

[kcpaz]

sorry, I don't get your replies until I'm done typing so my replies are a bit behind yours.


Anyway, so basically the JEC engine management is kick-ass compared to the Mitsubishi systems I am describing. It utilizes much more advanced programing to and software to achieve it's tune. It basically simplifies tuning for the common man like myself because I can rely on someone like you to figure out all of the technical stuff for a given range of power and put it together in a package that I don't have to mess with and re-tune every time something changes.

[longassname]

It doesn't have anything to do with frequencies but yes Stage 2 expands the operation range of the stock ECU. I uses a mass air meter meter which can measure roughtly twice as much air, fuel injectors which can deliver the fuel to match, and has tables that cover higher load ranges that na operation.



I think I get what you are saying now. What the stage 2 does is it expands the operation range of the stock ECU to allow it to go beyond n/a operation. For example...instead of the ECU reading up to a 1600hz signal it can now read up to say 2400hz signal and make fuel and timing adjustments according to that new range. Is that right?

[longassname]

It is much more "kick-ass" than the mitsubishi system you are describing. The real difference though is that you are describing piggy back stuff where as I am able to and have propperly reprogrammed the SVX ECU so that the common man like yourself doesn't even have to worry about trying to tune. Just plug it in and it will work.



sorry, I don't get your replies until I'm done typing so my replies are a bit behind yours.


Anyway, so basically the JEC engine management is kick-ass compared to the Mitsubishi systems I am describing. It utilizes much more advanced programing to and software to achieve it's tune. It basically simplifies tuning for the common man like myself.

[kcpaz]

Well hey man, I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me. The reason I became interested in all of this is that I'm putting an SVX engine into an early Porsche 911 and I was doing research on the factory engine management. I'm going to run it N/A at first, but I have plans for a turbo once I know that I can keep everything cool enough. I just scored an ECU that is supposed to have a stage 2 chip in it (2v7 I hope) and it's nice to know that I won't have to spend hours and hours trying to figure out how to tweak and tune the engine management to make it reliable and powerful tune. It's rather focus more of my time doing what I'm good at (fabrication) and less time trying to learn electronics and how the different systems work. I'll leave that to the smart guys like you :)

I was afraid I might have to go full stand alone but it doesn't sound like I'll have to. And why would I?

[longassname]

Look for obi in the piston thread. He has a porsche with an eg33 in it.

[kcpaz]

REALLY!!!??? you got a link? I would love to see some pictures.

[immortal_suby]

Well hey man, I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me.

Me too! This was a good discussion, I understand much more about the system now.

Got a quick question

I have finally secured (8) used 370cc injectors now but from 2 different engines. All are the sr20DET purple tops.
Without running NO2, am I safe to just pick the best looking 6 and drop them in along with 2v7 and see how she runs, or should I wait and send them off for matching/blueprinting. I have thursday off and an itchy set of tools that want to see how 2v7 runs......Please, I need a good reason not to drop them in if there is one. I am an excitedly impatient bastard sometimes.

[kcpaz]

if you want to unload the other two injectors that you don't use let me know, I'm probably going to buy a set of 4 on ebay this week. From what I understand, you HAVE to run the 370's with the stage 2 chip because that is what it's calibrated for. NO2, boost, or N/A, you still have to run the 370's


Just one more question about the 2v7....

When the engine is under full load, say at full boost, or WOT, what is the target AFR that the ECU looks for. Does it just lean it out until it starts to knock and then pulls timing and adds fuel? or is it more complicated than that?


Me too! This was a good discussion, I understand much more about the system now.

Got a quick question

I have finally secured (8) used 370cc injectors now but from 2 different engines. All are the sr20DET purple tops.
Without running NO2, am I safe to just pick the best looking 6 and drop them in along with 2v7 and see how she runs, or should I wait and send them off for matching/blueprinting. I have thursday off and an itchy set of tools that want to see how 2v7 runs......Please, I need a good reason not to drop them in if there is one. I am an excitedly impatient bastard sometimes.

[longassname]

The ones I've gotten have all had brittle/broken pintel caps. If yours look good though, go for it.


Me too! This was a good discussion, I understand much more about the system now.

Got a quick question

I have finally secured (8) used 370cc injectors now but from 2 different engines. All are the sr20DET purple tops.
Without running NO2, am I safe to just pick the best looking 6 and drop them in along with 2v7 and see how she runs, or should I wait and send them off for matching/blueprinting. I have thursday off and an itchy set of tools that want to see how 2v7 runs......Please, I need a good reason not to drop them in if there is one. I am an excitedly impatient bastard sometimes.

[longassname]

The afr is different and the timing is different for every combination of rpm and boost. There isn't any single target afr. The higher the boost the lower the afr will be.

if you want to unload the other two injectors that you don't use let me know, I'm probably going to buy a set of 4 on ebay this week. From what I understand, you HAVE to run the 370's with the stage 2 chip because that is what it's calibrated for. NO2, boost, or N/A, you still have to run the 370's


Just one more question about the 2v7....

When the engine is under full load, say at full boost, or WOT, what is the target AFR that the ECU looks for. Does it just lean it out until it starts to knock and then pulls timing and adds fuel? or is it more complicated than that?

[kcpaz]

That doesn't make sense to me. There has to be a certian point at which you don't want the AFR to go any richer (probably somewhere around 10.0 for turbo). If the AFR is 11.0 at 8psi, are you saying that at 12psi, the AFR will be even lower (richer)? at what point does the ECU sustain any given AFR?

I understand that timing would change with RPM, and the airflow will increase with RPM and and boost, but at some point, doesn't the ECU regulate fuel to maintain a certian AFR?

[longassname]

The ecu will sustain whatever afr the cell for any particular rpm and load combination tells it to sustain. There are 256 cells in a table. For me to give a numerical answer on afr I would have to know specifically what rpm and load combination you want to know the value for and go look it up--which before you even ask I won't do. You wouldn't know what load to tell me anyway since even if you had the equipment to log airflow you wouldn't know the translation table values or load forumla. Again, the optimum timing and afr is a function of load = mass of air ingested per revolution. 8 lbs of boost does not equal 8 pounds of boost which does not equal 8 lbs of boost. The load under 8 lbs of boost can vary pretty widely depending on charge temp, cams, and exhaust flow. I can just tell you that as a general rule the higher the load the lower the afr. The tables are populated with values based on our experience to date; they are what we have thus far found to be the best values.


That doesn't make sense to me. There has to be a certian point at which you don't want the AFR to go any richer (probably somewhere around 10.0 for turbo). If the AFR is 11.0 at 8psi, are you saying that at 12psi, the AFR will be even lower (richer)? at what point does the ECU sustain any given AFR?

I understand that timing would change with RPM, and the airflow will increase with RPM and and boost, but at some point, doesn't the ECU regulate fuel to maintain a certian AFR?

[kcpaz]

okay, so I'm assuming there was a lot of dyno work done for you to come up with the re-programming for the chip. When you are doing a dyno pull, I'm also assuming you are recording with a wideband right? Isn't it possible to look at the dyno pull and get a reading from the wideband? If you had a line graph of a dyno pull, that would answer my question. Then I could visually track the AFR during a pull.

I'm not trying to be a PITA, I'm just trying to learn about the system because I am probably going to run forced induction and I want to make sure my engine management will be up to the task. I think it's amazing that you have a system that can go from N/A to forced induction with no modification to the engine management.

[longassname]

dude.......

if you're looking for plots instead of undestanding then read the threads.

Anybody want to jump in here and try to bridge the gap between what I'm saying and what he's understanding? I can't think of any other way to explain what I've said and honestly don't understand why you don't understand.


your fuel and timing tables have load as one axis and rpm as the other
the tables have 16 rows and 16 columns = 256 cells
in the timing table each cell specifies the timing for the corresponding combination of load and rpm
in the fuel table each cell specifies the afr for the corresponding combination of load and rpm
the stage 2 tables cover the load range out to 500ish hp
the na operating range is a subset of that load range (the left side of the table)
for every combination of load and rpm below 500 hp there is a cell specifying the afr and a cell specifying the ignition timing


Once you understand that, you see that na operation is just a subset of forced induction operation and that an engine management system capable of handling forced induction is automatically capable of handling na operation.

And for you to question the afr being run under any condition less than 500hp means you are just questioning the value I put in some cell. Now I'm not going to say that the values in the current tables are the end all, absolute best values possible; they are the best known values to date and the result of years of experience tuning the SVX. When significantly better values are found you can rest assured they will be used in 2v8.

It sounds like you are focussed on looking for "it runs between 10 to 1 and 11.7 to 1 under boost." Yes it does. But if you are really worried that I'm specifying values like 17 to 1 at 20 lbs of boost you should run, not walk, away from using an engine management system of my design.

okay, so I'm assuming there was a lot of dyno work done for you to come up with the re-programming for the chip. When you are doing a dyno pull, I'm also assuming you are recording with a wideband right? Isn't it possible to look at the dyno pull and get a reading from the wideband? If you had a line graph of a dyno pull, that would answer my question. Then I could visually track the AFR during a pull.

I'm not trying to be a PITA, I'm just trying to learn about the system because I am probably going to run forced induction and I want to make sure my engine management will be up to the task. I think it's amazing that you have a system that can go from N/A to forced induction with no modification to the engine management.

[immortal_suby]

She's up and running on 2v7. Didn't take long at all to install.

Idle is smooth, no burps or anything while driving. Feels strong! Thanks Michael! :D

I'll be sending my 2v5 chips back soon - just want to drive her a few more times to make sure nothing goes wrong with the used injectors.

[TomsSVX]

now make a run on the funny stuff!!!:D

Tom

[immortal_suby]

now make a run on the funny stuff!!!:D

Tom

:D all in good time....

[longassname]

Thanks,

You're welcome. You don't have to send back the 2v5 ROMs. It's only the 2v6's I'm requiring back.

She's up and running on 2v7. Didn't take long at all to install.

Idle is smooth, no burps or anything while driving. Feels strong! Thanks Michael! :D

I'll be sending my 2v5 chips back soon - just want to drive her a few more times to make sure nothing goes wrong with the used injectors.

[Myxalplyx]

I think I may have just figured out what is making you missunderstand. I bet you are thinking the fuel table specifies how much fuel to inject. It doesn't on an SVX. The ECU is able to calculate exactly how much fuel to inject to reach an afr from the mass air readings. The fuel table specifies what afr to run under the operating conditions which match a cell.

The cells in the region of the table which an na car operates is in the left side of the table. The region of the table of the table a forced induction car operates under when under boost is towards the right side of the table. Get it? Load is an axis of the fuel and timing tables. When you talk about having a lower target afr for a turbo car you aren't talking about changing the value of a cell; you are talking about reading the value out of a cell further to the right in the table.

Likewise with timing. When you talk about running less ignition timing under boost you aren't talking about changing the value of a cell; you are talking about reading the value out of a cell further to right in the table.


So long as the engine management system is able to measure the mass of air being ingested, deliver the required quantity of fuel, has tables that cover the entire load range, and has the correct values in those tables it doesn't matter what hardware you use to get the air in.

Perhaps you should consider teaching classes about this. This is the first time 'I feel' I have come to a understanding of this, this way. Thanks! (Chest sticking out).

[kcpaz]

dude.......

if you're looking for plots instead of undestanding then read the threads.

Anybody want to jump in here and try to bridge the gap between what I'm saying and what he's understanding? I can't think of any other way to explain what I've said and honestly don't understand why you don't understand.


your fuel and timing tables have load as one axis and rpm as the other
the tables have 16 rows and 16 columns = 256 cells
in the timing table each cell specifies the timing for the corresponding combination of load and rpm
in the fuel table each cell specifies the afr for the corresponding combination of load and rpm
the stage 2 tables cover the load range out to 500ish hp
the na operating range is a subset of that load range (the left side of the table)
for every combination of load and rpm below 500 hp there is a cell specifying the afr and a cell specifying the ignition timing


Once you understand that, you see that na operation is just a subset of forced induction operation and that an engine management system capable of handling forced induction is automatically capable of handling na operation.

And for you to question the afr being run under any condition less than 500hp means you are just questioning the value I put in some cell. Now I'm not going to say that the values in the current tables are the end all, absolute best values possible; they are the best known values to date and the result of years of experience tuning the SVX. When significantly better values are found you can rest assured they will be used in 2v8.

It sounds like you are focussed on looking for "it runs between 10 to 1 and 11.7 to 1 under boost." Yes it does. But if you are really worried that I'm specifying values like 17 to 1 at 20 lbs of boost you should run, not walk, away from using an engine management system of my design.


Alright, I went back and re-read everything and I get where you are coming from now. Sorry for being such a pain in your ass. Thanks again for sharing your knowlege about your amazing product.

[Myxalplyx]

Alright, I went back and re-read everything and I get where you are coming from not. Sorry for being such a pain in your ass. Thanks again for sharing your knowlege about your amazing product.

You did mean 'now' and not 'not' right? If you meant 'not'.......Lol! :D

[longassname]

Now I understand the problem....it's borat!


You did mean 'now' and not 'not' right? If you meant 'not'.......Lol! :D

[immortal_suby]

I am finding one strange thing with the new chip - the car starts up faster.

Catches almost right away first crank and starts now instead of how it usually took 3 cranks before it started. Does this make any sense that it should? I'm not complaining one bit about it! Maybe my old injectors were clogged some - or are the new injectors just more efficient? Either way, I like it. :)

[Phast SVX]

Installed my stage 2v7 and injectors today. Car runs great, and its up to the challenge of 8lbs of boost on my t3/t04E. full throttle is quite thrilling.

[immortal_suby]

She's getting faster every day. Big improvement over 2v5. :D

[JaySVX]

Ok, i have read through most of the posts, and i'm still kinda in the dark on this. From what i've been able to gather, i have to have the stock MAF, and upgraded injectors for 2v7. What does the 2v7 cost? Who would i purchase it from?

[ensteele]

If you are interested, this is the web site. (http://www.ecutune.com/) :) :)

[SVXRide]

Ok, i have read through most of the posts, and i'm still kinda in the dark on this. From what i've been able to gather, i have to have the stock MAF, and upgraded injectors for 2v7. What does the 2v7 cost? Who would i purchase it from?

2v7 requires the use of the z32 MAF - it will not work with the stock MAF.
-Bill

[TomsSVX]

Mike... these injectors work?? They are Nissan 370's and it looks like the pintel caps are right

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-Fuel-Injectors-for-Nissan-Fairlady-Z32-300ZX_W0QQitemZ250173402226QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3355 4QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Tom

[SVXRide]

Mike... these injectors work?? They are Nissan 370's and it looks like the pintel caps are right

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JDM-Fuel-Injectors-for-Nissan-Fairlady-Z32-300ZX_W0QQitemZ250173402226QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3355 4QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Tom

Speaking of injectors, has anyone figured out a good source of used connectors for them? I'd rather not have to buy brand new ones, if I can help it.
-Bill

[Speedklix]

Mike... these injectors work?? They are Nissan 370's and it looks like the pintel caps are right

There are a couple that fit and flow 370cc. But mike can't verify.

I have, or had a set from the old q45 which I know are 370s and fit. never fired it up though. I was gonna try em when I hade a purple top spring a leak, but was only able to find four of them :confused:... Looking back, I wish I had just popped one in and tried. It would have been good to pass on :o I like the option because you could get them all from the SAME car with the plugs and caps and be ready to go! (the Q comes with 8)

[Speedklix]

Speaking of injectors, has anyone figured out a good source of used connectors for them? I'd rather not have to buy brand new ones, if I can help it.
-Bill

there is a guy on ebay selling them for reasonable prices, they are no longer made apparently and he DOES NOT list them. I'll find his name if I can. 300zx Turbo, q45 (both from about 95) are good source in the yard

edit...edited the wrong post

[Speedklix]

z32partsguy@excite.com is his email

a bit over $50 shipped for six.
I got a set new from him, when I split two of the "recycled" ones a few weeks back.

EDIT...
zcarmotorsports is his name on ebay, and I guess he does list them :confused: here is a listing (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/6-Nissan-300zx-300z-300-z-zx-Injector-connectors-90-99_W0QQitemZ280161455296QQihZ018QQcategoryZ46098QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

[odepaj]

Is there any progress on a 2v8?


I want to upgrade but I dont want to spend the money and then have the next update come out a month later..........




Dustin

[longassname]

There is no 2v8 per say in the works and there will be no new software versions in the next month. Later in the year there will be more versions/options to choose from to match a much wider range of hardware and engine configurations.

If you have 2v6 and no real need for larger injectors I'd sit happy with what you have.


Is there any progress on a 2v8?


I want to upgrade but I dont want to spend the money and then have the next update come out a month later..........




Dustin

[Zandar]

Forgive me if this has been answered already, but is there any performance loss using 2v7F with E85 over using 2v7 with 91? Granted same setup otherwise.

[longassname]

Only a few people have taken advantage of the e85 capabilities of 2v7f to date and the only actual SVX that I know of that has run it was turbo charged. All the feedback I've received is that it runs very well but we do not have any performance data on it.


Forgive me if this has been answered already, but is there any performance loss using 2v7F with E85 over using 2v7 with 91? Granted same setup otherwise.

[Zandar]

LAN, would it be safe to say that the stage 2v7f (obviously with MAF and injectors) would outperform stock even while using E85 fuel instead of 91?

[longassname]

I suspect so but don't have any data on it. Unfortunately e85 is not available ANYWHERE around here. Phastsvx is the only person I know of running it in an SVX so I would ask him. The feedback I've received from him was good.

The vanagon guys haven't given me any performance feedback. They are just happy to be able to distil, drive on, and drink their own ethanol.



LAN, would it be safe to say that the stage 2v7f (obviously with MAF and injectors) would outperform stock even while using E85 fuel instead of 91?

[STeeL25T]

So these roms will NOT work with a 96+?

=(

[Zandar]

I suspect so but don't have any data on it. Unfortunately e85 is not available ANYWHERE around here. Phastsvx is the only person I know of running it in an SVX so I would ask him. The feedback I've received from him was good.

The vanagon guys haven't given me any performance feedback. They are just happy to be able to distil, drive on, and drink their own ethanol.

I'll ask him, as this is a subject I've recently become quite interested in. One question for you on the tuning; how do you tune the F/A mix? Do you tune for AFR or lambda? Also, do you change timing advance for E85, and is there a way to bump the compression other than through cam/pisto/valve work?

[longassname]

correct, sorry

So these roms will NOT work with a 96+?

=(

[longassname]

I'm not quite sure what you meant to ask. AFR and lambda are the same thing expressed differently. AFR is the expression of the ratio of fuel to air. Lambda is the expression of afr as a ratio of the stoichiometric ratio of whatever fuel you are using.

In 2v7F runs approximately the same ignition timing for e85 as it does for gasoline. It's quite possible there are gains to be made by optimizing the ignition advance specifically for e85 but I don't have the fuel to work with.

I can build you a high compression engine for $6500.


I'll ask him, as this is a subject I've recently become quite interested in. One question for you on the tuning; how do you tune the F/A mix? Do you tune for AFR or lambda? Also, do you change timing advance for E85, and is there a way to bump the compression other than through cam/pisto/valve work?

[Zandar]

I'm not quite sure what you meant to ask. AFR and lambda are the same thing expressed differently. AFR is the expression of the ratio of fuel to air. Lambda is the expression of afr as a ratio of the stoichiometric ratio of whatever fuel you are using.

In 2v7F runs approximately the same ignition timing for e85 as it does for gasoline. It's quite possible there are gains to be made by optimizing the ignition advance specifically for e85 but I don't have the fuel to work with.

I can build you a high compression engine for $6500.

From what very little I've read, I've heard that one can either optimise fuel/air ratio by mapping for AFR or by mapping for lambda, but that lambda is more dynamic (i.e. one could map for 0.85 lambda and acheive the same results as mapping for various AFRs over various conditions, WOT, etc.). I'm rather a novice, so I don't know if I understood this correctly or not. I thought it would be like the difference between a logarithmic graph with a straight line (what I understand lambda to be for mapping) and a standard graph with a curve plotted for the same equation (what I understand AFR to be for mapping).

I would totally take you up on that engine to test out the possible benefits of E85, if I had the coin! Is there any way to bump compression on the cheap?

[longassname]

Ya, that doesn't really make much sense to me. Anyway, just fyi when you get into running an alcohol rich fuel like e85 afr/lambda becomes much less important than it is with gasoline. With gasoline if you go too rich you loose power. With alcohol if you go too rich you just don't get much more power. The only reason not to run rich with alcohol is it's a waste of fuel. For racing purposes you generally tune much like with diesel--throw in extra fuel just for the **** of it and don't wory about it. This is a result of the much larger spread between lbt and rbt. That would be more fruitful reading for you.


From what very little I've read, I've heard that one can either optimise fuel/air ratio by mapping for AFR or by mapping for lambda, but that lambda is more dynamic (i.e. one could map for 0.85 lambda and acheive the same results as mapping for various AFRs over various conditions, WOT, etc.). I'm rather a novice, so I don't know if I understood this correctly or not. I thought it would be like the difference between a logarithmic graph with a straight line (what I understand lambda to be for mapping) and a standard graph with a curve plotted for the same equation (what I understand AFR to be for mapping).

I would totally take you up on that engine to test out the possible benefits of E85, if I had the coin! Is there any way to bump compression on the cheap?

[Phast SVX]

I generally run my wideband in a lambda reading all the time. I would prefer 40 points of usable feedback rather than the 20 or so Air to fuel mode will display on the readout.

I must admit I have not run it in a year. When testing , we were still in the testing phase of the software and had not made the jump to the injectors. My impressions where the low end had a noticable amount of tq. Also, while running the fuel i could grab the intake manifold and hold onto it. Gotta love the combustions temp of alcohol.

Ask me again how it runs on the new turbo with injectors, fuel pump and software in august. By then we should have some drunk-fueled track numbers.

[odepaj]

Is it possible to run 2v7f with larger injectors?

Preferably 500cc+ injectors.





Dustin

[AFBeefcake]

Is it possible to run 2v7f with larger injectors?

Preferably 500cc+ injectors.


Dustin

Stage 2v7 was made for 370cc injectors so I would not think you could use any others with it.

[Nomad]

just received a chip and installed it but , : Clear memory using Subaru select monitor ... Whats that ? Is that the same thing as to clear the engine codes ?:confused:

[longassname]

Hey Normand,

You don't REALLY have to worry about that. A select monitor is the factory licensed diagnostic and communication tool for communicating with the ECU. Clearing the memory with the select monitor makes it easier for the ECU to learn the correct ignition advance correction to match the new software but even without it, given enough time, the ECU will learn the correct values.


just received a chip and installed it but , : Clear memory using Subaru select monitor ... Whats that ? Is that the same thing as to clear the engine codes ?:confused:

[longassname]

No but i may be releasing software for dual intakes with two svx maf meters and sti yellow top injectors.


Is it possible to run 2v7f with larger injectors?

Preferably 500cc+ injectors.





Dustin

[Nomad]

Thanx a lot , ill let it lear then !! :rolleyes: I'm very satisfied with all that i've purchase so far ( and it's not the end .. ) with ECU tune . I've just changed a wheel bearing , they asked me 4.5 hour of time . I know that it takes a bout 2 hours ... If you had a garage near my home , maybe i'll move for that ! ;):D

[immortal_suby]

Just thought I'd give a mileage update

I drove from SC to NY and back this past week and averaged 26 mpg highway
And I flipped 259k on this trip

[longassname]

sweet, thanks

I would have offered you the opportunity to trial the new aggressive stage 1 software by default but I don't think you have a car with a stock or stage 1 ecu anymore.


Just thought I'd give a mileage update

I drove from SC to NY and back this past week and averaged 26 mpg highway
And I flipped 259k on this trip

[immortal_suby]

Thanks Mike but you're right I am too far from stock to give it a fair shake. My dad parks his stocker for the winter and rarely drives it in the summer or I'd offer him to test it on his.

I think I should add the more amazing thing about getting this kind of mileage is the oxygenated winter gas we are using now should have made it much worse. On top of that alot of this driving was with the torque converter unlocked on the highway. When the temp dropped below about 40 degrees the combinatoin of the PWR radiator ATF cooler and one external cooler kept the ATF just cold enough for it to not stay locked for more than a minute at a time.

It's just cool to know that bigger injectors and more aggressive tuning doesn't cause a decrease in gas mileage.

[NikFu S.]

I still haven't installed mine. =(

Been procrastinating.

Anyone have two oval connectors they don't need? :o

[immortal_suby]

oval connector?

[longassname]

He's looking for sr20det style fuel injector plugs


oval connector?

[immortal_suby]

Nikfu, all you have to do is dremel some plastic off the sr20 injectors and you can use the stock svx plugs to keep your svx unhacked.

[NikFu S.]

Tell me moar. :tard:

[immortal_suby]

Use a dremel to cut away the extra plastic and to file down some of the tab - this injector is complete and the stock svx wiring plugs right in.

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photopost/data/500/100_1435.JPG

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photopost/data/500/100_1434.JPG

http://www.subaru-svx.net/photopost/data/500/100_1433.JPG

[NikFu S.]

Well I'll be damned. Wonder why I didn't hear of this sooner. I might have to install 2v7 along with all my other projects this/next weekend.

[longassname]

try to use new o-rings...and lots of vaseline..don't dare install them without vaseline.

[NikFu S.]

Well crud, I've gone 26 years without ever purchasing a thingy of vaseline. Now I have to break my running streak? :(

New o-rings on the way.

--
Bah, no they aren't. I got these things so long ago I forgot I had already put new o-rings on them. You guys are tricky, trying to make me get more. :P

[NikFu S.]

So I just installed the injectors and MAF, Matt I noticed you have the prongs bent upwards a little. Is that necessary?

One more thing, what is the proper wiring for the MAF? Which wire goes where?
The Z32 is white-brown-black-black/white
while the OEM is white-black/red-black-red.

--
Scratch the MAF thingy, I found a post elsewhere saying they are the same order. Makes shens.

[NikFu S.]

Damn, if I hadn't tore one of the o-rings injector 3 would not be leaking and I would be cruising on stage 2 right now. :o

[immortal_suby]

So I just installed the injectors and MAF, Matt I noticed you have the prongs bent upwards a little. Is that necessary?

One more thing, what is the proper wiring for the MAF? Which wire goes where?
The Z32 is white-brown-black-black/white
while the OEM is white-black/red-black-red.

--
Scratch the MAF thingy, I found a post elsewhere saying they are the same order. Makes shens.

Yes, I had to bend the prongs up slightly to plug them in.

[NikFu S.]

I didn't cut the ends off of the injectors. Seems hok.

[immortal_suby]

It was, but I love my dremel and I hate to cut the factory harness.

Were you able to plug in the factory harness with no cutting?

[NikFu S.]

I just trimmed off all the ridges from the injectors.

[thickasxthieves]

im wondering if it would be detrimental to run stage 2 on a near stock car until i get all my mods done. would it make less power than stage1 until a certain point in the modification process? is it just a plain bad idea to put one on an essentially stock motor?

[thickasxthieves]

what im really asking is if its smart to upgrade right off the bat to stage2? any reasons why it could be bad?

[K_Dub]

im wondering if it would be detrimental to run stage 2 on a near stock car until i get all my mods done. would it make less power than stage1 until a certain point in the modification process? is it just a plain bad idea to put one on an essentially stock motor?

I've got a 2v7f setup on a basically stock motor and all is well. My understanding here is that the maps are the same as the stage1 chip, but the stage2 enables forced induction by increasing injectors and the capability to measure more air flow. I went for the stage 2 because I didn't want to limit my options down the road, although forced induction is still a long way off in my plans. Another bonus to the stage2 that the stage1 doesn't allow is switchable maps for E85 (like mine) or 87 octane gas for adding NOS. The "f" denotes "flexfuel" whereas the regular 2v7 is switchable for 87octane.

If I'm wrong here, please, somebody jump in and correct. As far as I know the stage 2 setup is being used on many stock motors, but if you're planning to leave your motor stock; it may be overkill.

[RS_runner]

So is there any way I could order 2v7 with a map for different injectors, say yellow sti 555cc... And would making the z32 maf blow-through work or not with the 2v7 emu? Thanks.


Can i use stage 2v7 without the z32 maf meter or without sr20det 370cc fuel injectors? No, the software is precisely calibrated to use that sensor and those fuel injectors.

[longassname]

It's best to email me directly or call with questions. The company website is http://www.ecutune.com the contact information is there.

It's not on the website yet but there is a stage2av1 which is replacing the 2v7. There is also a stage3av1. Stage2av1 uses the z32 air flow meter and 370cc skyline injectors like previous stage 2 versions with the aggressive timing changes like stage1av1. Stage3av1 uses sti yellow top injectors with two SVX air flow meters--each seeing half the airflow. Stage 3av1 requires you to fabricate dual intakes.

The software doesn't care if you put your mass air meter on the intake side of a compressor or set it up blow through. Just make sure you do a good job of charge cooling with an intercooler before the meter so you don't cook it.


So is there any way I could order 2v7 with a map for different injectors, say yellow sti 555cc... And would making the z32 maf blow-through work or not with the 2v7 emu? Thanks.

[immortal_suby]

Just ordered the 2av1 upgrade by ordering through the 2v7 link. Sent an email to the contact address to explain. Wish I had seen the little "add note" paypal link before I clicked send. They used to have a box there to write it in but when I didn't see that I thought maybe it would come up on the next page. Doh! I hope either this or the email gets to you before the order is processed.
Thanks!

[longassname]

Hey Matt,

Yep I got your message. Stage2av1 update ROMs for old style memory adapter on their way. Thanks for the order.

[NikFu S.]

Updated software, huh.

I haven't even had the chance to unleash 2v7 yet.

[longassname]

Haven't you had 2v7 for 2 years? Unleash it already, lol.

[NikFu S.]

I tried, that's how my transmission exploded.

[immortal_suby]

Hey Matt,

Yep I got your message. Stage2av1 update ROMs for old style memory adapter on their way. Thanks for the order.

Awesome! Thanks Michael! I now have a great reason to look forward to this weekend :D

[NikFu S.]

Haven't you had 2v7 for 2 years? Unleash it already, lol.

Took it to 7 grand a few times since the rebuild. Pulls hard the whole way. Sounds awesome. Gives me a headache after. Well done.

[NikFu S.]

So this software is supposed to have a rev limit, correct? I'm pretty sure I read this somewhere.

I pulled a brain shart about a week ago and put the clutch in and took it out of gear while I was on cruise control and RPMs shot up to over 8 grand before I could even blink, of course the lack of blinking may have been due to the fact I was in some glazed over stupor.

Just wondering.

[longassname]

The rev limits are 7500 and 7700 in the stage 2 software.



So this software is supposed to have a rev limit, correct? I'm pretty sure I read this somewhere.

I pulled a brain shart about a week ago and put the clutch in and took it out of gear while I was on cruise control and RPMs shot up to over 8 grand before I could even blink, of course the lack of blinking may have been due to the fact I was in some glazed over stupor.

Just wondering.

[Earthworm]

I pulled a brain shart about a week ago and put the clutch in and took it out of gear while I was on cruise control and RPMs shot up to over 8 grand before I could even blink, of course the lack of blinking may have been due to the fact I was in some glazed over stupor.You should really take some time and properly wire up your transmission/pedals. It's not hard. In fact, it's probably more work to wire in a switch to control the backup lights. :p

[NikFu S.]

Heh, Yeah. :/

I may have to do that anyway to pull off a decent shifter surround.

[Earthworm]

What's wrong with the stock one? It doesn't have to be modified for the manual shifter.

[NikFu S.]

What I have now is just hideous, and if I fancy it up at all (which I probably will) I'll need to relocate my NSS and back-up switches.

[longassname]

I just made Stage2Av1 and Stage2Av1F full release, replacing Stage2v7 and Stage2v7F. They have been in trial for a long time now and kicking butt.

[Earthworm]

I've still got Stage 1v3 but have been meaning to move up to stage 2.

[longassname]

You can update to Stage1Av1 for a lot less.

[Earthworm]

You can update to Stage1Av1 for a lot less.That's true, however, I might already have the MAF and injectors. :)

[Tapani]

Has anyone tried the ISIS 300ZX Z32 Mass Air Flow Sensor ?

http://www.enjukuracing.com/isis-replacement-mass-flow-sensor-2268030p00-p-9085.html

A brand new OE replacement against a used OEM product? The cheapest new OEM I have found is 480 USD.

Tapani

[longassname]

That looks like a pretty good find. They have the plug for them too which is also difficult to find.

[Tapani]

There's not much user experience available on these.... this is pretty much the only thing I found:

http://forums.beyond.ca/showthread.php?threadid=287996

Tapani