does the rear wing ACTUALLY provide any benefit?

[rallyingrob]

..........or is it just for style points?

no seriously.......does anyone have anything in their collection of reading material that says the wing provides benefit?(ie: downforce or improved stability above a certain speed or.......?)

what im wondering is if i should ditch it in favour of the weight loss or keep it...it DOES give about 20lbs of downforce at the rear !! LMAO!!

when built, i wont be seeing speeds over 130 mph, and if i do its only for a few seconds(unless i rally in quebec where they seem to use gravel roads 4 lanes wide!!)

to paraphrase the clash..........should it stay or should it go now?!?

lol

[ensteele]

I have driven SVXs with and without the spoiler. I have noticed a difference on the paved road at speeds greater than 100 mph. The SVX without seem to he lighter in the rear than the ones that have the spoiler. There has been discussion on how to find out how much downforce they provide, but it is fact that they are functional. Good luck on the project. :)

[Beav]

I always liked that it blocked the center of the headlight beam of the vehicle behind me. Beyond that, it was a PITA to wax under...

[ensteele]

The first major wax I do on the car, I take it off so I can wax easier. I find the same thing about the lights behind me. :D :D

[NikFu S.]

I recall someone talking about the extra gap space between the rear deck and rear quarter it rests on, and saying there were marks as if the two had met.
Push down on your trunk lid and see how much force is required to close the gap.

[sperry]

I would be there is little to no downforce from that wing. It's not raked like a spoiler, and I bet it's too close to the trunk lid to really have good enough flow to act as in inverted airfoil.

I'll bet the most it does is help reduce drag by spoiling the air off the back of the car (and thus helps freeway fuel mileage a little).

Take a look at the massive STi spoiler or the Spec-C wing (or actual race cars for that matter)... that's what a wing needs to look like for it to be downforce functional, and even then you need to be hauling the mail for it to really make a difference.

[Myxalplyx]

to paraphrase the clash..........should it stay or should it go now?!?


Lose it! It is only good for rice points.

[rallyingrob]

LMAO....lord knows i could never be accused of bein a ricer!!
:)

thats what i'm leaning towards too......i save high-mounted pendulum type(all the way to the rear) weight with no real tangible loss in stability....

[richardstanley]

Dude ... Really? I think it is sweet! I wouldn't dream of taking it off my car, adds alot it seems like, the ones without it just don't seem near as nice looking. But obviously this is all a matter of opinion.

[ensteele]

Color makes a difference. Some of the colors look better without the spoiler than other colors do. Personal preference is also a big issue. :)

[DownforceTom]

everyone knows wings & stickers add tons of horsepower. look at mine, thats good for about 80+.

[Trevor]

I'll bet the most it does is help reduce drag by spoiling the air off the back of the car (and thus helps freeway fuel mileage a little).


The trunk lid is obviously designed for this purpose. The wingy thingy will have been "engineered" :confused: by the sales department. :rolleyes:

[immortal_suby]

Anyone weighed one? I remember when installing one on my wife's svx that it was very light - maybe a few pounds at the most.

[ensteele]

I have one laying around someplace. :rolleyes: I might weigh it for jollies. :D :D

[It's Just Eric]

nd I bet it's too close to the trunk lid to really have good enough flow to act as in inverted airfoil.
From what I can tell, the factory spoiler is actually directly in the airstream coming from the sides of the rear windshield and over the car. If you ever drive with some fresh snow on the car, look at the wind pattern it maps out..youll see two vorticies at even 1/3 points across the leading edge of the spoiler (Most spoiler chips mark this as well) Keep in mind the car's areodnamics were designed without a spoiler.
ake a look at the massive STi spoiler or the Spec-C wing (or actual race cars for that matter)... that's what a wing needs to look like for it to be downforce functional
Actually, the sti spoiler creats 12 pounds of LIFT after 90 mph
everyone knows wings & stickers add tons of horsepower. look at mine, thats good for about 80+.
Bwahahaha!!! dude, youll fit right in here (Even if your wing doesnt)

The trunk lid is obviously designed for this purpose. The wingy thingy will have been "engineered" by the sales department.
Ditto. This is the simplified version of what I was thinking. My vote: Give yourself a provisional period of winglessness. Handy hint of the day...the hols for the spoiler are outside the trunk jamb's weather stripping...so removing the spoiler will NOT result in trunk leaks..though you will want to do something about the holes if you decide to chuck the wing for good

[LarryIII]

The rear wing on the SVX trunk lid helps SVX drivers' arms stay in shape for those grueling beer drinking nights at SVX Meets.
After the trunk lid struts die, the rear wing provides additional weight and is positioned correctly to provide the proper downward force to persons lifting the trunk lid. This builds up the biceps and triceps without putting strain on the shoulder or elbow.

Any SVXer, worth his salt, will attest that when preparing for an SVX Meet there is no better exercise than lifting and gently lowering the trunk lid 10 times per day with the rear struts disconnected at least one month prior to the Meet.

DISCLAIMER: If you are not in shape you should start with only 3 trunk lifts per day and build up slowly to 10. :D

[ensteele]

The rear wing on the SVX trunk lid helps SVX drivers' arms stay in shape for those grueling beer drinking nights at SVX Meets.
After the trunk lid struts die, the rear wing provides additional weight and is positioned correctly to provide the proper downward force to persons lifting the trunk lid. This builds up the biceps and triceps without putting strain on the shoulder or elbow.

Any SVXer, worth his salt, will attest that when preparing for an SVX Meet there is no better exercise than lifting and gently lowering the trunk lid 10 times per day with the rear struts disconnected at least one month prior to the Meet.

DISCLAIMER: If you are not in shape you should start with only 3 trunk lifts per day and build up slowly to 10. :D

And shouldn't they also check with their doctor first to make sure they are healthy enough for this physical activity? :D :D

[lhopp77]

Lose it! It is only good for rice points.

It is definitely not a ricer style spoiler. I like it. In fact the car with it has never been confused as a ricer, but one without is definitely many times confused as a Ford Probe. ;)

Spoiler weighs in at only 9 lbs.

Lee

[NikFu S.]

9lbs or not I could not lift my trunklid when I was sick. Not unless I wanted to collapse afterwards.
It's not that the trunk is really heavy, it's just there is very little leverage.

[ensteele]

It is definitely not a ricer style spoiler. I like it. In fact the car with it has never been confused as a ricer, but one without is definitely many times confused as a Ford Probe. ;)

Spoiler weighs in at only 9 lbs.

Lee


I think that the 9 lbs is worth it to keep someone from having it confused as a Ford Probe! :eek: :rolleyes: :) :)

[svxistentialist]

I think it is probable that the rear wings or spoilers, either the US or JDM style, were put on for style rather than for function.

In addition, it is absolutely CERTAIN that the cars with the rear spoilers have a far higher Cd than ones without.

In which case, there is a trade off between what beneficial rear downforce is created by the wing, and at what constant speed this force is most useful, versus what negative drag effect the wing creates at normal road speeds of 80 to 120.

Personally, I prefer my car slippery for better penetration. When wet or when dry.

;) :D

[rallyingrob]

is that a TRIPLE entendre or are u just happy to see me!?!?!?
LMAO

for 9 lbs of weight loss i think its worth losing it......

and when i'm done....aint NOBODY gonna think its a "freakin" ford!!!:D

hehe
:)

[DownforceTom]

8576yeah, now what?

[sicksubie]

8576yeah, now what?
I think dayle should start carrying them....:p

[ensteele]

If you like that one, you should see the JDM model. :rolleyes: :D :D ;)

[sperry]

If you like that one, you should see the JDM model. :rolleyes: :D :D ;)

http://alkali.colug.org/~kaha/ricer.jpg

[ensteele]

Sweet!!! :D :D :D

[It's Just Eric]

Pfft, jim hall wannabe's
http://www.bruce-mclaren.com/images/chapparal_2G_1967_%20Los-Angeles-Times.JPG

[rallyingrob]

hehehe
jim's cars really sucked!!

rob"tunneling the svx trunk floor and installing fans"m.

ps........i'm showing my age.......i actually know what a "sucker chapparel" is...

[sperry]

hehehe
jim's cars really sucked!!

rob"tunneling the svx trunk floor and installing fans"m.

ps........i'm showing my age.......i actually know what a "sucker chapparel" is...

You don't have to be an old-timer to know about the 2J. You just have to be a fan of... um... fans.

http://www.ashcom.homestead.com/RMH3257W.jpg

[Cho]

I noticed that the trunk lit was a lot lighter when i removed my wing to sand and repaint. I ended up driving the car for about a week without the wing on and it didnt seem to make a difference at all. You really have to be going over 90mph to feel any difference and doing so really damages your tranny. (thats why mine has been sitting outside for the past 6 months.) Damn that WRX, if only i had a 5speed.

The wing itself is light and fiberglass. Also a pain to repaint properly without any orange peel. Unless ur really going to try and drop a lot of weight, it's unnecessary to remove it. But, whatever floats your boat.

[rallyingrob]

LOL

thanks sperry!!
:)

and yes..........the car is getting lightened A LOT!!!!!!!!

(anyone seen whats under the little sail panels beneath the 1/4 windows? is it so ugly that i'll want to keep them?)

rob"just call me lexan"m.
:)

[It's Just Eric]

YEah, it's pretty ugly...but theres a few rubber plugs you can take out before putting the cover back on:)

[Hocrest]

anyone seen whats under the little sail panels beneath the 1/4 windows? is it so ugly that i'll want to keep them?

Yeah, keep them on. We tried going without on the Racer. It didn't look good. Plus if you go without, that area will fill with mud that will weigh more than those panels.

What's your plan for the Lexan?

[AlcyoneDaze]

so, what was the conclusion here? no downforce, right? just a style thing that adds 9lbs of weight and a little more drag...

[ensteele]

I have read someplace that it did produce downforce. I have driven both at high speed and I feel there is a difference. Maybe it was the difference in the cars, but the one without did not feel as stable. I will try to find the facts about the downforce. I have been wrong before, so I will try to find out where I read it. :) :)

[rallyingrob]

lexan side windows(one piece sadly.......they have to be installed in such a way was to still allow the driver/co-driver to exit if u r on yer roof...and i REALLY wont fit through the existing opening, especially with a race-suit on and adrenaline flowing....:(

and rear 1/4 windows and rear screen..

i have a semi-crazy idea to mount the rad to the cage back-stays and was going to use the rear 1/4 window openings to scoop air into it....if i do it, i will just use plexi for the rear screen...:)
the rear screen would be hole-sawed into swiss cheese to allow air to flow...

(this hare-brained idea also involves an alloy/lexan bulkhead behind the seats...)


actualllllyyyyyyyyy.........what would be kinda neat is alloy rear window louvres ala camaros/vettes etc......use no rear "glass" at all........:)

ps.thanks eric 'n hocrest !! :)

[redlinedeath]

screw all this, im going to remove my spoiler, put flames down the side, get 13 inch wheels sticking 5 inches out of the side of the car, and get a triple decker aluminum spoiler that sits 4 feet above the car!! YEAH!

[NikFu S.]

screw all this, im going to remove my spoiler, put flames down the side, get 13 inch wheels sticking 5 inches out of the side of the car, and get a triple decker aluminum spoiler that sits 4 feet above the car!! YEAH!

Move to Japan and you could be a hero for it.

[crazyhorse]

Dunno what I can REALLY add except that the wing DOES add drag & a small amount of weight. When moved rearward I'd think it'd add just slightly more downforce.
I think the wing is mostly for styling, but at speeds of probably 90+mph it'd add a small amount of downforce. Most of it at the tips of the wing from the wake turbulence hitting it. It effectively raises the decklid height, to the airflow anyways. The foil itself is above the boundary layer, so the clean air hits the top of the wing itself, at speed.

In short, moved rearward, the wing MAY actually be of benefit at high speeds. Without scientific data I can't say how much downforce it'd generate, but I'd bet on 25-30 lbs at 100mph.

[sicksubie]

I noticed that the trunk lit was a lot lighter when i removed my wing to sand and repaint. I ended up driving the car for about a week without the wing on and it didnt seem to make a difference at all. You really have to be going over 90mph to feel any difference and doing so really damages your tranny. (thats why mine has been sitting outside for the past 6 months.) Damn that WRX, if only i had a 5speed.

The wing itself is light and fiberglass. Also a pain to repaint properly without any orange peel. Unless ur really going to try and drop a lot of weight, it's unnecessary to remove it. But, whatever floats your boat.

Hurts your tranny??? How?

[jman050]

since when does driving at 90mph hurt your tranny:lol:....actuall heat and shock hurts your tranny....and speed does not nessasarily translate to heat

[sicksubie]

if you are cruising at 90mph I do not see that as being a lot more harmful than cruising at say, 50mph. Sure the parts are spinning faster but still......

[Myxalplyx]

It is definitely not a ricer style spoiler. I like it. In fact the car with it has never been confused as a ricer, but one without is definitely many times confused as a Ford Probe. ;)

Spoiler weighs in at only 9 lbs.

Lee

http://www.changeeverything.ca/sites/default/files/images/unclebens2.thumbnail.jpg

Don't let me have to tell you again Lee. :p

And if you look closer, the box weighs in at 6 oz (3.3ltr or 3 +3 = 6). I see the relation here. :)

[b3lha]

The simple test is to leave unlatch the lid then go for a drive and see if enough downforce is generated to click it shut.

I think it's just for decoration.

[svxistentialist]

http://www.changeeverything.ca/sites/default/files/images/unclebens2.thumbnail.jpg

Don't let me have to tell you again Lee. :p

And if you look closer, the box weighs in at 6 oz (3.3ltr or 3 +3 = 6). I see the relation here. :)

That's Uncle Ben's, it's American rice.

Any true ricer worth his salt [geddit? geddit? :rolleyes:] will only use imported rice.

;):D

[svxistentialist]

The simple test is to leave unlatch the lid then go for a drive and see if enough downforce is generated to click it shut.

I think it's just for decoration.

That's a fair plan for checking the downforce Phil. I'm also wondering if it contributes negatively to drag. We have always been very proud of the very slippery CD ratio the SVX was rated with when the car launched. That sub 0.30 figure was for the car with no spoiler.

I agree that the spoiler is purely cosmetic also, to suit the different markets.

And further, it is my guess, and only a guess, that the JDM spoiler will cause less drag than the US/UK type. I think the JDM one presents less of an obstruction to the airflow spilling off the roof over the back window. Some of the air can spill beneath the wing.

Joe

[lhopp77]

If weight is a consideration the first thing to go should be the radio/CD and all related equipment and then next the carpeting and sound deadening material. :D :eek:

Actually, I personally like all of these things including the very stylish and conservative spoiler. :p Possibly driving the point home, AGAIN, that this car was never designed to be a racer or light to light juvenile rocket. (read the thread about the Ford Focus beating the SVX if you like fast starts) ;) I love the comfortable, stable highway cruising at the higher speeds allowed in my area.

But, to each his own. :)

Lee

[svxistentialist]

If weight is a consideration the first thing to go should be the radio/CD and all related equipment and then next the carpeting and sound deadening material. :D :eek:

Actually, I personally like all of these things including the very stylish and conservative spoiler. :p Possibly driving the point home, AGAIN, that this car was never designed to be a racer or light to light juvenile rocket. (read the thread about the Ford Focus beating the SVX if you like fast starts) ;) I love the comfortable, stable highway cruising at the higher speeds allowed in my area.

But, to each his own. :)

Lee

Lee, I whole-heartedly agree with what you say here. The car should be enjoyed like it is and as it was designed.

As regards weight, if somebody was seriously thinking about making a lighter SVX for highway use, there are a couple of things they could do that would drop serious poundage, and not do away with the radio or sound deadening.

1) Replace the front seats with semi-lightweight reclining recaros. The OEM mechanised driver seat in particular must weigh 50 or 60 kgs. Possible gain for two seats -80 kgs

2) Take off the front and rear bumpers. Strip out the incredibly heavy 5mph crash sections behind the skin. Replace by fabricating light metal internals, and put back on the skin over the new structure. Then replace.

It is practically a two man job to lift the front or rear bumper as standard. Probable gain for both bumpers, -80 to 100 kgs.

The replaced seats will be an improvement on the originals.

The replaced bumpers will be less collision effective than original.

Combined weight removed: 180kgs, about 400 lbs. Anybody serious about losing weight and not just paying lip service to the notion, this is the way to go.

Joe;):)

[Hocrest]

It is practically a two man job to lift the front or rear bumper as standard. Probable gain for both bumpers, -80 to 100 kgs.
The bumper beams do not weigh 40-50kg (100 lbs) each. At least the US ones. Maybe half that, I have one in the basement, I'll weigh it later...

I agree that that is a good place to get rid of weight, and the bumper skins can be held in place with some screws and zip ties.

[sicksubie]

the bumper skins can be held in place with some screws and zip ties.

Zip ties??? LOL

[Hocrest]

Zip ties??? LOL

They're lighter than a nut and bolt :D

[svxistentialist]

Zip ties??? LOL

Screws and zip ties??? Youse guys crack me up. We're trying to lose weight here, for gosh sakes!! What's wrong with good old-fashioned duct tape??

:rolleyes::p:D

[Chiketkd]

Here's a link to a thread I started sometime ago about this same question: SVX spoiler = downforce?! (http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24783)

[crazyhorse]

That was all good info.

To generate downforce, the wing doesn't actually have to have airflow over both sides. (top & bottom)
The stock wing just barely clears the boundary layer on the bottom. The Boundary layer is an approx half inch thick layer of turbulent, slow moving air that clings to the skin of a body moving through it. That tickle you feel when you stick your hand into the air outside the car window at speed. (Yes I'm simplifying this)
The abrupt change in airflow direction adds downforce. However, Subaru decided to pull it in, out of the clean, descending air from the roofline.
If it were moved back, a half inch higher with just a couple degrees of negative AOA, (angle of attack) it would generate significant downforce. Possibly enough, that it would cause front end lift.


My 2cents FWIW

[svxcess]

I did not know where else to put this.

I was in Ellicott City this afternoon when I spotted the "lipstick on a pig"

There was a Jaguar XJS V12 convertible in a restaurant parking lot with an SVX spoiler on the trunk!

Wish I had my cell phone with me to record this. It fit fairly well, but I thought it was too massive for the shape of the car.


.

[SoobCrazy]

I It's not raked like a spoiler, and I bet it's too close to the trunk lid to really have good enough flow to act as in inverted airfoil.

I'll bet the most it does is help reduce drag by spoiling the air off the back of the car (and thus helps freeway fuel mileage a little).

Take a look at the massive STi spoiler or the Spec-C wing (or actual race cars for that matter)... that's what a wing needs to look like for it to be downforce functional, and even then you need to be hauling the mail for it to really make a difference.

Spoilers don't necessarily need to have a lot of angle of attack if they are in a clean airstream. You are correct that the SVX's OEM spoiler is mounted too low, but remember the low Cd this car has. That makes shorter spoilers more effective beacause a clean airstream is held closer to the body of the car instead of seperating along the roofline.

That being said, creating turbulance off the trainling edge of the body would improve top speed, etc.

Yes the STI spoiler is huge and in a much cleaner airstream (especially after '06, with the roof-mounted pre-spoiler), but don't discount the little spoiler on our cars, although most spoilers that size are cosmetic at best).

[SoobCrazy]

Actually, the sti spoiler creats 12 pounds of LIFT after 90 mph

Who/what told you this? Don't want to step on any toes, but this statement is false.

[XT6Wagon]

likely mistaking the overall lift as the wing generated lift.

You know the wings work when Subaru refused to sell certain front areodynamic configurations of the STi without a rear wing. Also why the Audi TT got recalled...

Here is a great example of why you don't use a large front splitter and no rear wing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y24AqSok-Rk

[icingdeath88]

Also why the Audi TT got recalled...

Care to elaborate?

[XT6Wagon]

areodynamic imbalance ment that the Audi TT was suffering from highspeed oversteer issues. Which was in part solved with a small spoiler. The TT still was running positive lift, just the small addition of a rear spoiler added some rear downforce reducing the rear lift, and bringing the car into better balance.

few road cars have actual downforce, but that doesn't mean that spoilers, splitters, etc don't help by bringing the lift closer to 0.

[SoobCrazy]

Care to elaborate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_TT

Early TT models gained press coverage for a series of high-speed accidents in Europe. Reported crashes and related fatalities occurred at speeds in excess of 180 kilometres per hour (110 mph), during abrupt lane changes or sharp turns. Both the Coupé and Roadster models were recalled in late 1999/early 2000, to improve predictability of the car's handling at very high-speeds. Audi's Electronic Stability Programme, and rear spoiler were added, along with suspension modifications. All changes were subsequently incorporated into future series production versions of the car.